The awful question must be faced as to how Australia would fair if we were attacked. Many of the public seemed to have turned on John Howard however should we stop and re think any hasty knee jerk action considering the worlds unsettled state.
John Howard is no friend of mine given he had ten long years to use his brains and re- divert the barbaric live Animal trade back to local work keeping our regional area country towns alive.
I cant believe he can be so silly not to see with the tree change trend half of Australia leaving city jobs are going to be on Welfare.
Personally I could cheerfully strangle the bloke for his none action when he fully knows the extent of barbaic cruelty to Australian Animals.
However- That said he has formed a close working friendship with America and Bush and I think we will need them down the track.
America saved us in the last war and we owe them for our freedom today.
The real question the Australian public need to ask themselves in Would America look after us to the same degree if Howard were gone and Rudd was incharged and pulled the troops.
Personally I dont think so and we need to think where Australia would be if we lost a powerful friend.
I mean we all need to think seperatly whats best for our familes protection.
This is no time to loose our powerful friends I would suggest.
I urge every parent and husband and wife to consider this before ticking that box on the day.
You may hold your kids lives in your hands.

PALE,

You're over looking one very important fact. GWB is now a lame duck president. He cannot stand for another term, thats it over and out.

The next president by and large is going to be looking to get out of Iraq as soon as possible, which meshes quite nicely with Labors POV.

Which country has the intention to invade us, unless we try to provoke them?

I think we should focus on positive deplomacy based on our own judgement that promotes things like human rights etc and we would not need to seek umbrella from another country and de facto adopt their foreign policies. The US alliance I think is valid to the extent it serves our interests. There are interests for the US that are simply irrelevant to Australia given our vastly different geography and international standing.

George Bush is a great President and will always be remembered for 9/11, Weapons of Mass Destruction, Colombine, American Health Service, Cyclone Tracy, New Orleans a great leader when the Country needed one after the two timing antics of William Jefferson Clinton.
Our leader has kept under his wing for the benefit of American and Australian friendship it just shows that their is no gratitude in Politics. America has lost over three thousand of their soldiers in a war that has been worthwhile for the promotion of democracy. Britain may now be retreating but John Howard will never retreat he will stay their to the bitter end. The soviet Union lost twenty million dead in the second world war to stop hitlers armies. Our Graziers are being paid well for live exports that is why the coalition must continue with this trading for the benefit revenue. Yes Rudd is putting us all at risk by not supporting George Bush. He will have to work with the Democrats if he gets elected but God willing he will not if he answers my prayers.

Julie I m little confused with your post...Are you being sarcastic? Your post is a little difficult to decipher.

pale it is in posts such as this I am forced to question your understanding of the issue, sometimes any issue.
It was Labor during the second world war that pioneered our ties with America.
You can bet Rudd is never going to change that.
Are you aware the overwhelming majority of Americans want out of Iraq?
Do you see England maneuvering to leave?
Is anything to be gained by Australia giving unquestioned support to any American President?
Is it not true Bush is now the lam duck leader less than a third support in his own country?
Are you not a proud Aussie? why cede our fighting forces to any other country?
Pale do you understand the history of ww1? how we went to war for another country England?
How we lost Australia's best on battle fields all over the world not for us but for a country that wanted only its empire?
What a great country we are today but if those lost lives had not rushed to die and lived to have children we would truly be greater.
wars must be fought but what possible way out of Iraq other than tail between our legs can you see?
Let Rambo win this war for America Iraq's people largely only want to kill each other.

Goodmorning everybody
Juliesaid
Our Graziers are being paid well for live exports that is why the coalition must continue with this trading for the benefit revenue.
Julie your great george bush the good christian is reasonsible for Live Exports pushing his trade dollars. Thats how they make their money didnt you know that. If he really cared about Australia and its future he would have invested interests with the Australian Government and farmers operating Abattoirs here. Having pursed at lenght the grave implications the diversion of livestock to the cruel live trade has on Australian meat processing, its important we remember the impact on other industries. Apart from the abattoirs and meat industry there are enormous numbers of business reliant on supply of coproducts such as small goods producers, pet food, manufactuers of industrial products and veterinary, pharmaceutical and thats just a couple.
by exporting Australian livestock to be slaughtered overseas we are eroding the supply of coproducts available to by-product manufactuers.
In 1998/1999 West Australia hide and skin exports was 7%[ A53m] of national exports A 4810m
Every feedlot the Government spends our taxes on that our ownded by off shore is another blow to tax payers and employment not to mention the barbaric treatment of the animals.

PALE... ok, far starters, is this about security or live exports? They're separate issues, with only the most tenuous ties.

On security - the simplicity of your initial post does the situation no justice whatsoever. It' infinitely more nuanced and it's not going to be thrown into disarray by the election of Rudd.

Cardinal rule of international diplomacy: countries act in their own national interest. Sometimes that interest is in maintaining allies.

Whether Australia withdraws from Iraq or not, Australia and the US will remain allies. It's a pretty minor thing in terms of a long relationship. Neither Rudd nor Howard have suggested yanking troops out on a sudden basis.

As for the close relationship between Howard and Bush - it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, and besides, Bush is departing. The two nations have close ties for numerous reasons, largely because they share a similar culture.

The other issue to consider is the fact that as long as Australia remains friendly to the US, the US would rather see a friendly power here than a hostile one. And as it stands, we share common enemies.

Outright invasion is unlikely. Besides, other powers can buy up our interests with other means. Whilst casting no aspersions on Singapore, to highlight my point, their government owns more Australian assets than ours does. Buying assets is cheaper than war.

An outright invasion is pretty unlikely. If it were to occur, do you honestly think the Americans wouldn't do their best to prevent a hostile power from taking control of Australian assets, which includes the world's largest reserves of uranium?

Sure, we remain friendly to the US. But there are degrees of friendliness. Now and then our interests differ and we can quite safely go our own way in these instances. Often, that would do our security good in fact, as if we weren't so close to the US, we'd be less likely to antagonise militant groups.

Honestly, the idea that we have to follow the US policy that closely is based on a woefully simplistic impression of international politics.

Good to see so many sensible responses to this.

But nobody has yet mentioned the COST.

With the fall of Singapore at the start of WW-II, Australia realised its mistake of relaying on some foreign superpower. Australia had to fight its own way out of that war, the U.S. was not fighting Japan and Java's invasion of our northern borders because they like us, but because the U.S. saw it as in its own military interests to fight Japan here rather than in Hawaii or San Francisco.

After the two bombs were used, Australia began deals with both Britain and the U.S. hoping to share that nuclear weapons technology. And that was Australia's great defense plan until 1971 when it realised neither UK or US would ever share this technology. It was from that point that Australia has adopted the stupid idea that getting into bed with the U.S. would be in Australia's national security interests. America on the other hand does what is best for America.

The COST of getting into somebody else' bed is that you pick up their diseases and you are expected to share their burdens to prove you are still their friend in the hope that one day they may use friendship instead of national interest to make decisions.

36 years of subjugating Australian interests in the name of false friendship is not a good price.

Ah yes but the reality is that we are a small and insignificant nation and, if we want to do business with the rest of the world, then we have to abide by what they want, not what we might like.
Our economy is miniscule against the might of North America, China and EU.
As for the idea that noone would want to invade us unless we upset them - utter nonsense. Asia has already invaded us in the sense that we have lost so many jobs to them.
Anyone who believes we can 'become part of the Asian region' is talking nonsense too. Whether we like it or not we need the US simply because consecutive governments have been too afraid to acknowledge that we are never going to be part of the Asian region and have thus lost opportunity after opportunity to trade with the rest of the world while we were trying to butt in where we are not wanted. Asia will accept us a neighbour but not as part of the family. It is time we recognised that - indeed it is probably too late for trade purposes. So yes, Rudd is risking everything because he thinks he can do it because he speaks Chinese rather badly.

Turnrightleft.
You cant seperate economy from sercurity.
Communicat-
At last someone who gets it.
Agree with you` regarding Australia being so small that we do what they want.
However its because our leaders are lacking any motivation, guts and for-sight.
There`s opportunity considering the interest in our clean green agriculture business.
I can’t see that Rudd has been smart enough to grab these opportunities and run them as new Australian Policies.

Wish he had. He’s young and probably an OK guy but not leadership material.

I also agree with you about Australia being invaded.

I call it cow Karma buts that are another subject. I hope we are not too late for trade purposes but it’s getting that way.

Wendy our President has held some fantastic meetings with Malaysian Government reps. However you would appreciate when dealing on that level the partners or investors like to think it has the backing of the Government which ever country you are dealing with.

Australian Governments fall over badly here. Partly their corrupt set ups and part stupidity ,lazy, disinterested. Control of Austrade MLA etc not to mention control of media and the media`s control of what’s communicated to the public.

Rudd fancies he can do business with China. Sure China will do business with him. I betting they would love! to! Have you ever dealt with china businesmen?
China is icy cold to Australia and its going to get worse. [Just in case Rudd has not noticed.]

Howard the old fox is fully aware of China’s feelings but pretty much thinks- stuff em. That’s the difference.

Hey I am no fan of Howard either given his appalling lack of action towards Australian Animals and shipping out our jobs.

After saying that leaving Animal Welfare out of it and `just` addressing sercurity I know we are better off with the experienced old fox Howard.
I mean its not as if we have many choices is it?
Perhaps that’s what we need to address in the next few years asap.

Is it pale the group[ all 3 of you]or this poster who is so out of touch with Australia?
Howard the old fox! is that the same old fella who,s party is planning his removal?
China? dealing with Rudd? can it be you are not aware right now like it or not the world wide boom is driven by China?
Currently on tour in our country Americas Bush has to contend with the fact only one in three Americans trust him.
Howard or Rudd must be aware the next American leader is going to get out of Iraq.
Australia, my country must always have a will of its own, never out of fear drop to its knees before any country.
Sorry but as you post as pale I must think you speak for pale if you fail to understand these issues do you best represent anything??
How many of us think our ties to America are so fragile we must adopt a down on our knees diplomacy stance?

The Federal government is putting Australians at risk, by its association with a war criminal, who is playing roulette with the lives of Australians every time he finds a new enemy.
Australia and the US have more enemies than friends, the current paranoia in Sydney is a testament to this.

Hello everybody
There goes Daerons`theory of sensible comments Belly. It’s “our country” belly not yours the unions haven’t won yet. How childish following me around making remarks about a NFP organization that helps Animals. We have hundreds of members who go get out and deliver feed to farmers and pay out of “their own” pockets.
I am stunned by Labors campaign run by a volunteer union bloke to discredit us. Blimey just imagine what the paid union blokes would do.
James I am not in favor of one man or the other as far as men goes. Given our disgust with both of them regarding Animal Welfare.

Sarah it is important we remember that our position to support America was Kevin Rudd and Labor’s choice too. I think Howard and Mr Rudd and Labour made the "right decision'

Of course Mr Rudd will say now he will withdraw the troops because he wants to be elected. Where as Howard is standing staunch because he thinks it’s the right thing to do curbthis trouble before it spreads.
Please don’t forget the world trade center which was an attack on The Western World. No wonder he and Bush are mates. They went through a lot together and I am sure Bush wouldn’t be at APEC had he not in return stuck by a friend. That’s the tie between America and Australia. Personally I like the yanks.
As for world leaders-
Howard Rudd Bush they all have the unnessary suffering of millions of Animals on their hands because of their greed and lack of forsite for Australia so perhaps we will meet with our karma one day all of us for doing nothing.
Live Animal Exports is Australias Greatest Shame and the destruction of our country.
I would hate to waiting on China sending food when we cant get ships in and we wont have any food here because Australia "sends of our raw materials overseas" so other countries can create employment?

When did Rudd say he wasn't going to support America?. From what I heard he said he was keen to deal with security issues related to the south pacific. Prioritise our involvement in global "policing" is how I took it. I don't believe he said he would drop and run from Iraq. I believe he said he was supportive of initiatives for Iraq to become self sufficient with help from nations like Iran who have [obiviously] an interest in different factions within Iraq. Granted, Iran ain't the perfect option...but who have we got?. Syria?.

EVERYONE should be aware that we are in Iraq for resource security. We got lied too.

The future for the south pacific is IN the south pacific. If we don't start taking responsibility for our own region in humanitarian and security areas we WILL find ourselves needing support from nations outside the area. How about we get involved in our own region. Give potential enemies input into trade and security. Isolation makes people paranoid.

STG
A fair enough comment. Execpt the last part of giving our emeries our trade and raw materials. I know you didnt say raw material STG but lets face it that all we have left. If Kevin Rudd had ever once come up with a policy to keep our raw materials and get Australia back on track he would have had a few more million votes and that much I can say for sure.
Even if Kevin were the smartest best inexperienced bloke on earth how is he going to run the country. He would have to sack his staff and advertsie in the newspaper. Come on now please tell me who you think is up to their job? Just give me a few shadow Ministers names and why you think they would be good for Australia in their positions? I think that is a fair question just before election time dont you.
I will even settle for their advisors. In fact I prefer it. I feel sorry for kevin because he has to do all the work. Clearly its been agreed between them that he announces everything. Thats a sure bet because he knows how disorganised they are. If his advisors had done even half a days work or attended meetings where new ploicy invitations were on the table in the last few years Kevin would be laughing. Get rid of Nationals, Downer, Vaile, Heffernon and the dead wood. Give Rudd and Howard a shared responsibilty and get some decent advisors to get factories open in Australia again before we are without food.
Uncle Sin put out his first CD today in three years with promises to step up his crazy terror.
To pull out now is the most dangerous thing either Howard or Rudd can do.

pale you again defame me! this time you go to far this time you lie I AM A PAID TRADE UNION OFFICIAL.
Here and now I SAY I have respect for your age and lack of education, respect for your concern for animals.
But no more can I respect you.
I have made allowances for your blind unknowing anger your sometimes so far from reality slant.
But I know something you should , your claim is from another Newcastle poster he got it from my lifetime enemy's extremist trade unionists.
It is a lie often told to counter the flood of refugees coming to my union weary of the radical and sometimes criminal actions of a few.
This forum does not need you or me, you must stop your threats and insults this act by you in this thread is nasty and childlike is it pales view
? or just the view of a very bitter old lady?
change your sing in name stop defaming your group but do not go away please your heated miss spell posts are always worth a read.
One day in a post I told of an idiot in another unions shirt pulling my delegate out of a machine and telling him he was to be bashed.
Your insulting lie is as low an act as that one.

To suggest that Mr Rudd won't support America in reality is deliberately being naive. With the election coming on Mr Rudd has shown that he will say anything that appears popular with the voters. He is a 'christian' to the christians and a greenie to the greens. Labour supported the troops going into IRAQ and are playing internal politics with the withdrawal of the troops. If and when Mr Rudd gets into power he is going to have many enemies in his own party who are silent at the moment because they know that after 11 long years in opposition that they have to keep their mouths shut if they want to be elected. The unions, Ms Gillard and others will oppose Mr Rudd on many issues once and of elected.

Blow the Whistle
Stop Work!
Down tools
cricky a Paid trade Union Official. Well Goooollly! "that is a real surprise".
For a start I am not old. Secondly I think my English is pretty good.
Perhaps my spelling is not as if I were born here. Australia is home and my first love but sometimes I get the two languages mixed and dont express myself the same.

Is this the way you treat people from other countries as A Paid Union Offical.? I mean is this an official ALP policy?

Well I guess that makes more sense if your being paid. I was wondering why you were following me around to be honest.
I dont get paid myself because my concern is to help Animals but moments like these do make it worth while I must confess.

I honestly do not know what your mean by the `other fellow` in Newcastle or pulling someone out of a machine so I can not comment/.

You sound like you need to lie down with a Bex. Take it easy belly its just a forum not live news.[ lucky for you]

Has it ever occured to you that by following me around rubbishing pale calling me old, bitter, poking fun at my spelling is not a good look for a paid union official?

If the Howard crew are reading these threads they will be rolling on the floor with laughter. I have got to addmitt I find you enjoyable belly.
Its been a really good day filled with laughter and a great time has been had by all.
We owe you a great deal for that.
Who said the ALP were not good for something.
A PAID UNION OFFICIAL PICKING ON A LITTLE OLD BITTER LADY TRYING TO HELP ANIMALS[ In your own words.]

This is better than the ABC Chasers
funny As!

I pale ask you is the post you used to tell me your birth place was Kempsy wrong?
Is the one about your grandfather being a bullock driver not about you?
Did you not tell me in one of your posts you remember sitting with him as he boiled the billy?
My grandfather was such even though I am 62 soon I have no memory of him.
How many do post as pale?
to what end?
I am honoree VP of my branch of my union a paid official, I am VP of a ham radio club and have been office holder in far more including bush fire, rescue, SES, WICIEN but never ,not once used those groups to put forward my private views.
you seem unable to stop insulting people debate is about proving your point.
not running amuck in childlike insulting ways that belittle your group, is pale happy for you to continue your spite filled rants in its name?
Like the person who miss lead you you trade by default in lies and seem remote from the fact Australia is not even close to sharing your views.
Right or wrong pale I am union forever, live on my union wages drive my union car and in my view value fairness and honesty in all things.
And place my views on politics on record against your here, the day after the change in government you may regret the things you have said about our then prime minister.
A man pale may need to deal with, PR is much needed in your group balance and understanding is not present.
Animal welfare deserves better.
I must go now that red China thread is so funny it needs a re read.
pale you surly must agree the person who posted tonight is not the one born just up the road?

Belly
You have settled down. [Good] What do you expect when you come into a thread purposely put the boot in.
That’s not the old Labour blokes I recall.
You must understand anything that is said is NOT personal although we all take it as such, it’s just a forum.
I didn’t like the lack of concern about the person reporting the rape and you have always refused to discuss live exports intensive farming and Animal Welfare.
We all have a duty to protect our most innocent including union officials. The person you are enquiring about was in Kempsey the other day at a family funeral.
I am sorry you don’t recall your grandfather that’s sad.
I will try to resist the obvious crack about the ham radio club.
I will admit its killing me- but pardon the ignorance what’s that?
You say Australian people do not agree with us but they do.
For years they have screamed about shipping our jobs off overseas and none more than the AMIEU[in the past]
There is nothing wrong with being loyal and doing what you think is fair. I am not sure your old Labour morals are fitting with Kevin however. He’s not real Labour as it was.
He’s more a young trade boy full of fresh new ideas and some of the old.
Well you may say we need a PR person but I have just slaughtered you and you know it.
Still if you want to help all offers excepted because the animals need these one hundred year old laws brought into line with the rest of the modern world.
I would like to discuss some things about Labour and Rudd’s policies and his advisers but you have shown no interest in the past.
Do you think it is possible now you and I belly could bold some sensible talks without you biting my head off?
I am also interested in these rival unions that’s bothering you.
Perhaps we can communicate. It’s up to you.
MR RUDD A FAIR GO FOR AUSTRALIAS FARM ANIMALS.
SLAUGHTER HERE AND SUPPORT THE AMIEU

This is my last post in this thread it is pointless to try to tell you of your rudeness, however I note you removed you post that defamed me, thanks, gone but not forgotten.
In a strange way I know you do not understand the insults are indeed personal, the female game of verbal tennis in some hands is meant to hurt and quite brutal.
It has no relation to truth and no intent at fairness.
So here in your last post you actually admit others use the cooperate name pale here?! WHY?
Yes one poster said I was born just up the road in Kempsy! and my grand dad was a bullock driver! I loved to watch him boil the billy!
I am not aware I have supernatural powers, well maybe just a bit, my grandfather died before I was born, so forgive me.
pale the group now, is it time to tell the truth? just how many post under that name?
WHY?
Is every thought that of pale? can it be such amateurish rants are policy?
And have other supporters just maybe lost the plot with strange threads and even stranger charges?
The election campaign is about to get heated and dirty, on form we are more than likely to see a change of government , would you want the anti Rudd/Labor rants to be handed to Rudd just before he met with you to discus your wishes?
Is it not true firms spend big money trying to get a message across while some in this old Lady's tea party that seems to be pale are unaware of PR, or diplomacy?
who is pale? is animal welfare your aim or a front? are we addressing one or a crowd?

Belly
No idea which post you are referring to being taken off. If Graham took something off then it was for a reason.

I am curious to know what it was to be honest. Don’t suppose you could pop it back up so I could read it ah? [Just kidding]

You say you have looked at the PALE web site you may have noticed Tom Hannan X Federal Leader of the AMIEU for thirty five years as our adviser.

Tom is one of the most informed people in Australia. He’s one of yours. A top bloke with a quick wit and outrageous sense of humor... Kevin Rudd and Labour could do a lot worse to have him as an advisor. [Part time because he’s retired.] I must add doubt the man would be interested but my point is I am not Anti Labour people just wimps who are self serving. - That’s not directed at you]

For years we have invited Labour advisers to meetings with overseas contacts and heads of Muslim councils to visit the possibility of a new policy for Labour. Labour advisors liked what they heard and I know that was sincere.
However they lacked the enthusiasm to follow it through and failed to show at meetings that THEY suggested for two years.

Then of course Jack Lake Kym Beasley’s adviser probably stepped in and refused to even look.

No wonder why Kym went down because you need a good advisor belly. We are all only as good as the rest of the team and Kevin can’t do it all.
Mr. Rudd has already said he will not be stopping live exports Belly.
He’s going to follow through on more of the same policy the national and Howard put up.

Exporting raw materials from Australia no matter what they are is irresponsible. Sure we can export but after we have value added. I feel you are not interested in Australia’s future past your union job.
If you are then why not discuss reopening abattoirs in Australia.

AMIEU guys really need it.

Don’t you care about your own.?

I wonder if we all do it? yes we do get of thread of subject me too.
But this thread is about the somewhat strange view that Rudd betrays us and America by promising to bring our troops home, in part, from Iraq.
Debating points have been put that we should be able to act for our country's interests.
That it would not harm our relationship with America.
That under a new leader America will leave soon.
My view is we one day must fight the forces that are intent on killing or ruling us.
But Iraq was wrong, it empowered people who think only in terms of middle ages hate to promise glorious death to some who have no education other than hate.
We will not win in Iraq, crime and corruption will, hate and tribal war will, we did more harm than good.
Yes pull out of Iraq, and wait till we are called upon again but next time lets be assured no other option exists.
And that America has better than Rumsfold planning it.

PALE - of course you can't separate the economy from security.

But the notion that animal exports is in any way a significant factor in the Australian security situation is utterly ludicrous.

As far as being 'better off with old fox Howard' for security... I am somewhat sceptical of this reasoning.

What you don't address here, is that each and every security related decision has a positive and negative factor.

In the post above, I've explained how Australia's long term relationship with the US is unlikely to be affected significantly by who our leader is, or whether we follow a security path that is marginally less integrated with the US.

Now we also need to consider the flip side of the coin - we can still remain close to the US, without participating in skirmishes that will hurt other relationships.

Have you considered the notion that we can still maintain a close friendship with the US, but follow a path that is less likely to antagonise other nations?

The Malaysian Prime Minister made a point in the Australian today, saying that our reputation has been damaged by our involvement in Iraq.
I happen to believe it we'd just contributed logistical support to US Middle eastern operations, we could still have maintained friendship without the negative effects.

As far as 'old fox' Howard goes, remember his 'deputy sheriff' comment to Bush about the South East Asian region? How do you think that went down with our neighbours?

You'll have to do better than 'old fox howard' to convince me of his superiority on security issues.

Belly
Sorry I didnt see your post earlier. Its a difficult call either way isnt it.
I agree with much of what you say and your counter arugument.
We are darned if we do and darned if we dont.
There are plenty of people over there that love bush for getting rid of a dictator.
You just dont here so much about that side.
Then again and I guess this is a little selfish thinking of the rest of the world he did control some of the others and the near neighbour that could be a bigger threat one day.
So yes I agree with your counter argument also.
Turnrightleft.

There is nothing silly about linking live exports to Australia`s sercuirty at all.
You surprise me if you do not know how these ships with forty staff etc enter Australian Waters for starters.
There is nothing too secure about a ship captin faxing through a list of names onboard to the livecopre for example who are not police but live export shipping agents.

Not unusal to get a fax from a captin with thirty names on a list.
Mostly Mohameds.
I raised this five years ago and there was a stink for a while and they said they made `some changes.
This is somthing that would equire much further space to reply to you in more detail.
As for the old fox Howard I should think you may have guessed he no friend of people concerned with Animal Welfare being led around with the help of the cruel National
However hes an expereinced old war horse and smells a weakness long before many.
Look how he pounched up here in QLD when Rudd could not control Beattie in his own party.
I certainly have nothing personally against Rudd and as a man minus baggage of union boses. He may make a good PM one day

If he cant stand up to his own party member how is he going to stand up for Australia.
Give him a few years.
In the mean time we may need the old fox.

Yep. Old Labor. Reckon theyre still working for the old communist flame. Under Bob Hawke what seems like the last of the defence weapons that might have been handed out to the citizens in time of invasion went to the blast furnaces at Pt. Kembla and were never replaced. No one picked up on the anamoly it seems and even today Bobs helping hand to the PLA remains as it was then. All we will get under Labor is more rights for homosexuals. They dont give a hoot about national defence.

Gibo: "All we will get under Labor is more rights for homosexuals. They don't give a hoot about national defence."

Less guns, more equal rights? Awesome. Coming from you especially, that's the best endorsement of Labor I've heard.

Are kevin Rudd and Labour putting th Australian public at risk by not supporting Americ?

Quite simply no, that would make us less of a target for terrorists.

Turnrighleft

Said
"All we will get under Labor is more rights for homosexuals. They don't give a hoot about national defence."

pale replies.
Really I didnt know labour were pro Homo rights.
Are they?
bloody Hell. Tell us more please
Stone the Crows- What next.
If ALP get in we ARE stuffed as a country.
They have NO policy No idea and are rude arrogant and lies.
They have done nothing but either refuse to answer question to us - run - head for the hills or lie.
Kevins track record in QLD is nothing to be excited about trust me.
They have not even run a council. They blame Federal for the hospitals and police but that IS a lie.
Mind you we HATE the Howard Governments lack of reasonsibilty towards Animals Welfare.
They ought to be taken out and shot sending our jobs away in raw materials.
idiots.
But labours Worse.
We really didnt know Labour we giving Homos more rights.
Thats of huge concern. Children need a Dad AND Mum.
Perhaps the answer is to get rid of the lot of them ALP and Federal
I cant see any other answer.

Actually Pale, I was quoting gibo.

I'm not actually up to speed with the ALP policy on same sex rights. It may be selfish, but it's not an issue that really concerns me, so I haven't followed it too closely.
If I was to be presented with a decision I'd certainly support it.
I suspect it's more of a conscience issue that doesn't follow party lines, in a similar manner to stem cell research.
I also suspect, that the ALP would be more supportive than the liberals, though I don't have the numbers of supporters and opponents.

Funnily enough, the same-sex rights issue was brought up among members of the liberal party - some were for and some against. It hasn't really been resolved, though senior Libs had to play their hand.

Turnbull and Ruddock were supportive. Turnbull didn't surprise me though Ruddock did. That's one of the rare times I've agreed with him.

Predictably, Abbott and Andrews were opposed. Howard didn't have to declare his hand, though the punters reckon he's more likely to side with those pushing for more same-sex rights.
Good on him.

As far as your comment pale:
"Really I didnt know labour were pro Homo rights.
Are they? bloody Hell. Tell us more please"

I take it then, that the PALE organisation doesn't have many gay members.