The two states created, Israel and Palestine, will be side by side, and will probably maintain the hatred that many Muslims and Jews feel for each other. The conception of a Palestinian state usually includes the proviso that the Palestinian state should have limited armed capability so that it could not attack Israel. If a divorced couple were forced to live in the same house side by side the hate which led to the divorce would probably be preserved.

However, the hate is not pervasive nor is it necessarily permanent. Jews have lived and prospered in the Arab world. The great Jewish philosopher, Moses Maimonides, thrived in the Muslim world after escaping Almohad persecution in Muslim Spain. In spite of great persecutions in the Christian world Jews have also lived and prospered there. The great Jewish scientist, Albert Einstein, thrived in the Christian world after escaping Nazi persecution.

The solution is for Israel to become a democratic state. A democratic state must have equality in law among its citizens. Any state based on a particular religion or ethnicity cannot also be democratic. The definition of democracy has changed through history. Ancient Athens which excluded women, slaves and foreigners (a foreigner in Athenian terms might be one whose family had lived in Athens for generations but whose ancestors had a non-Athenian origin) from the vote was not a democracy in modern terms. A democratic state cannot allow slavery as the US did before the Civil War. A democratic state must have separation of religion and state. It must not favour or denigrate any religion or the sect of any religion that follows the law. A democratic state must have a public school system which does not separate students by ideology, race or religion. While US schools were segregated by race the US was not a democratic country by current standards. Students in a democratic, integrated school system can grow up together, learn together and discuss their differences. When they reach adulthood they can work together and marry each other.

Dear David F.,

Thank you for introducing this topic.

But before we can start discussing whether or not a given action can constitute a solution, wouldn't it be useful to first define the problem?

Dear David F.,

If both sides would support one democratic state and
if they could think about the principles which would put
the focus on human and civil rights that would be a
step towards the solution that they could adopt to
the 21st century.

Definitely a new thinking is needed. They should aim to
create one democratic state and a decolonisation process
in Palestine. But as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe points
out - "This isn't going to happen tomorrow."

"It's a very difficult road giving the American support for
Israel and the American ideology, coupled with the Arab
world's disunity and the disunity in the Palestinian camp."

Pappe says:

"This means it will be a very long period before it can be
achieved. However, it's much better to go on a long road
knowing this is the end game than going on the short road
- as we did in Oslo that looked like a two-state solution
but ended up with more occupation, more oppression and
suffering of the Palestinian people."

Prof. Pappe says:

"It would be great if there was a new Palestinian initiative
that would not only represent the Palestinians in the West Bank
and Gaza but the wider Palestinian community around the world.
If they would support one democratic state in all of Palestine."

David f

Wearing Muslim religious tribal clothes to school, and Israelie Jewish religious clothes to school,hardly promotes unity, it immediately signals tribal affinities, differences and divided loyalties.
Yes religions are tribal bloodlines when they don't marry outside of their religious group

The Israelies were very relaxed about Palestinians coming into Israel to live and work,when they were given an assylum area of land (escaping Germany after being displaced from WW 2) in a desert, barren area of Palestine.

As the Israelies did in Germany, they worked hard, and turned the desert area they had been given into a beautiful well run, and organised oasis state.
The Badly run, by Islamist extremists terrorists, Palestinians, looked with envy at the hospitals and beautiful shops, children's play areas and decided that the Israelis state actually belonged to them.

Incidentally, all the children's playgrounds in Israel today have big thick bomb shelter roofing over them, same for shopping centres and other areas.
The Arabs have been attacking Israel since the 1950's, 1960s.

Dear Foxy,

If there had been a democratic state in Australia from the beginning we wouldn't have to worry about an Aboriginal voice or a recognition of an Aboriginal entity. What happened in Australia was that the English came in with overwhelming force, subjugated the Aborigines, forced their religion and culture on them and established a political entity in which the rights of those who survived were limited.

What happened in Israel was that Jews backed by the US and Russia were able to defeat the Arab powers backed by England and France and subjugate those Palestinians who stayed. The subjugation was less overwhelming than that of the British in Australia, and the Palestinians who remained in the new state of Israel became a resentful minority.

The Aborigines who live in Australia are claiming a recognition of the history that led to the present situation.

Both the English and the Jews claimed the backing of their version of the Bible. The English claimed their version of the Bible gave them the right and duty to force their religion on others. The Jews claimed their version of the Bible was a deed to the land given them by God.

George Gershwin said it in song, "The things that you're liable to read in the Bible. It ain't necessarily so."

Dear David F.,

Thank You for this discussion and for explaining things
so well.

I'm unable to travel due to mobility issues but it has
always been my dream to visit Israel. I
have many friends and colleagues there. Instead I do "virtual
tours." My younger brother and his wife went there a few
years ago and told us how beautiful it was.

Therefore my heart cries out that a 21st century solution
can be found and supported by both sides one which puts a focus
on human and civil rights. I hope that I shall live to see
that happen.

Hi CHERFUL,

Welcome back!

David f

...... continued from above

Decades of attacks on Israel going back to the 1950s and 1960s

The Six Day War— Israel woke up to find itself cut off from the world on all sides by 4 Arab Armies including Egypt. They had to fight their way out of the blockade, and did it in 6 days.

There were constant terrorist attacks inside Israel around the year 2,000. Over 120. With bombs going off in cafes and public areas. Knife attacks etc. The final straw, after which the Israelis got tough, was the blowing up of a bus full of Jewish school children killing them all. The Usraelies built a border fence and started having guards asking for people's papers as they crossed into Israel.

As for the "occupied territories", so called by the Muslims,is actually a buffer zone taken by the Israelies against the constant attacks with missiles into Israel and the constant digging of tunnels by terrorist groups trying to get into Israel.

Incidentally it's hypocritical of the Arab countries to demand Europe and Western countries welcome Muslim assylum seekers, when they have done nothing but attack and try to destroy their Israelis assylum seekers, left homeless. WW2 survivors.
But then the Muslim leaders, Imans and Ayatollahs
did secretly plot with the Germans against the Jews in the war.

You won't hear any of this history in our woke Leftwing media.
"Occupied territories" is all they say, over and over, immediately painting the Israelies as the aggressors

Hi Foxy,
Thank you, good to be back on the good old online opinion.
with you again.
The world has gotten much worse since our conversations from a few years ago.
It seems our leaders are now conspiring with the banks and global Robber Barons(Oligarchs) to make digital banking slaves
and enslave us in all other ways as well.

That's a whole other debate.
Good to talk with you again, luvie,
Stay safe and Foxy

Dear CHERFUL,

You stay safe as well.
And please keep on posting when you can.

How can we ever speak of a "solution" where the (so far) four of us here speak of and wish to solve four altogether different problems?

Foxy wants to stop the suffering of the "Palestinians".
Cherful wants to keep Israel strong.
David F. wants to make certain changes to Israel's education system.
And Yours truly wants to see Israel healed in spirit by becoming free of all the poisonous territories it took in its 1967 war.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You are speaking of what others want. You cannot read the minds of Foxy, Cherful and me. I want Israel to be able to live in peace with neighboring countries and the non-Jews within Israel. I don't know if that's possible. As long as Israel remains a Jewish state Israel will not be at peace with the non-Jews within Israel and the occupied territories. I feel that, if Israel became a democratic state rather than a Jewish state there would be a chance for peace. Possibly most Jews and most non-Jews do not want a democratic state and living in one would only result in efforts to overthrow the government either within or without. The changes I recommended to Israel's educational system are only a step to Israel becoming a democracy. The problem of the continuing hostility is exacerbated by religious differences and will continue as long as those religious differences exist. Democracy is not a cure-all. I feel that in this case religion is evil. Myths about God and what God wants contribute to the evil.

Hi Yuyutsu,

I think that all of us hope that there will be an end to
the conflict. That each side will eventually see each other as
human beings and maybe they can cross the divide.

The land must be shared, people must be treated
equally. It is possible if the will is there.
If the Diaspora Jews and Palestinians brought pressure to bear
on both their sides - attitudes could change.

People must change - or they will destroy each other.

Dear Foxy,

I will be 97 next month, and my dear wife has Parkinson’s so my travel plans are limited. I haven’t been to Israel, but I would like to see it.

At one time I was an ardent Zionist, but I no longer am. For a while I was ardently opposed to Israel. I no longer am. I have come to realize that any people can be oppressed, and any people can be the oppressor. The Germany of today is not the Germany of the Nazis. The Australia of today is not white Australia. The Jews of Israel are not the Jews confined in Christian designated ghettoes. When people are allowed to oppress many do. When people are oppressed they suffer in silence, speak out if allowed, suffer in silence, become violent, express themselves in a non-violent manner or turn to religion. When some of the oppression is lifted some of the oppressors feel they are oppressed.

I see religion as a mixed bag. I think Seneca, a Roman philosopher, had a reasonable view, “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.”

Sometimes religion contributes to tribalism and hate and is a source of evil. Bible bashers quote the Bible to back up their views. I will do the same.

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › passage

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The belief that God approves of atrocity is a great encouragement to many who commit those evil acts.

Read the Book of Joshua for examples in the Bible.

Dear David F.,

Thank you for sharing and being so open about your
feelings. I appreciate how difficult it must be
for you. To me compassion has always been a Jewish
tradition. That is why I still have hope that
things in Israel will improve with time. I believe
that people can and must change. It is possible if the
will is there. If the Diaspora Jews and Palestinians
put pressure to bear on their leaders attitudes could
change. People all over the world are beginning to
realise what's going on. Slowly, too slowly the tide
is turning. Change must happen - or the state will destroy
itself.

Dear David,

As you all speak of a "solution", I can reasonably believe that you perceive of a problem around Israel that requires solving, thus I asked you to tell us what exact problem are you referring to.

Indeed I cannot read your mind, but in the absence of a response I had to do my best at guessing, based on what you wrote in your opening address. No one can assume that others can read their minds and know what their problems are if they fail to state them.

Now in your subsequent post you did clarify:
«I want Israel to be able to live in peace with neighboring countries and the non-Jews within Israel.»

Thank you, thus your problem seems to be that this is not happening, so you offered some solutions.

In my view, the price of the solutions you offered is too expensive for Israelis to bear: should that indeed be the price, then remaining at war is the better option (for them, not necessarily for you).

---

Dear Foxy,

«I think that all of us hope that there will be an end to the conflict.»

Yes, that would be nice, but at what price?

«That each side will eventually see each other as human beings»

Well this is your proposed solution, and appreciably it does cost less than David's, though I don't think it's even required: experience shows that humans do have conflicts with other humans and on the other hand, humans can often live in peace with animals!

«The land must be shared»

It is shared already, not necessarily equally, not necessarily fairly, but it is, thus you may want to be more specific on how exactly it should be shared.

David's method of sharing the land is, for varied reasons, unacceptable to most Israelis and is also unacceptable to me because that would also imply that Israel's 1967 occupation will never come to an end.

«People must change - or they will destroy each other.»

Possibly, but then it depends on how exactly you want people changed: certain changes are worse than destruction.

For a solution, how come the Hebrews and the Philistines don't send out two champions to fight it out in single combat? This would save everyone else the trouble of fighting, and would seemingly be a quick, safe, and satisfactory way of settling the question?

Hi Yuyutsu,

A couple of things.

The issue so often in this conflict is not whether you're
right but whether you're wise.

Washington should try to pursue discreet Israeli/Saudi
normalization discussions and force Hamas to chose
between its rockets and re-construction.

Hamas is a problem. They seem to be about rejection
not co-existence.

Of course the Palestinian issue cannot be dismissed or
denied. Israel can't keep absorbing Palestinian
territories. But Israel can't solve the conflict on its
own. Palestinians must also be willing to compromise
and that is something they continue to resist.

But Israel must be open to new approaches that signals
recognition of Palestinian and not just Israeli needs.

Dear Yuyutsu,

It might help if Jews & Arabs could rid themselves of their religious superstitions and their god nonsense. You are probably right. They would rather kill each other than resort to reason.

Dear Foxy,

«and force Hamas to chose between its rockets and re-construction.»

Well they have chosen already - rockets!

And just as you observed the bitter internal divisions in the "Palestinian" camp between PLO and Hamas, who are happy to kill each other, I hope that you are aware that similar divisions exist within Israel too.

«Of course the Palestinian issue cannot be dismissed or denied.»

Well, while you personally may not dismiss or deny it, it had been officially put on hold by Israel:

Following the previous Israeli elections, the new coalition partners decided on a cease-fire - no, I didn't mean a cease-fire between Israel and "Palestinians", but between themselves! The terms of this cease-fire include the maintaining of the status-quo in the West Bank, abstaining from any changes or initiatives there in order to be able to concentrate on Israel's other, more pressing internal issues.

Good luck to you if you expect Israelis to suddenly abandon all their burning internal disputes to focus instead on the forgotten issue of those silly "Palestinians" which has now been placed for decades in their too-hard-basket. What could you possibly offer them to entice them to give that any priority?

---

Dear David F.,

«It might help if Jews & Arabs could rid themselves of their religious superstitions and their god nonsense.»

That would be a sufficient condition [for stopping their war], but not a necessary condition. Another sufficient condition (for example) would be to have their arms and legs broken, because then too they would not be able to fight. If it comes to that, then both sides would certainly prefer the latter option.

Can you even convince them to break their arms and legs? or to pluck out their own eyes? because that would be relatively easier!

«They would rather kill each other than resort to reason.»

But they are not being unreasonable:
Reason never dictates objectives, reason can only determine how to obtain one's objectives - and their objectives in life are simply different to yours.

Hi Yuyutsu,

The United States needs to stop preserving and funding
Israel. When peaceful opposition to Israel's policies
and through pressure on the parties a peaceful solution
is achievable. But too many insist on sparing Israelis
and Palestinians the pain of outside force so that they
may instead continue to be generous with one another in
the suffering they inflict.

Dear Foxy,

The days when Israel depended on the United States are long gone.

At present, Israel is in many ways stronger than America, its economy is flourishing as America is entering a recession and it produces such weapons which America can only envy, including anti-ballistic equipment capable of stopping the Russian and Chinese super-sonic missiles, which nobody else has, including the United States.

America is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Israel knows it and lately often defies America.

The main danger to Israel is its internal conflicts, not external forces, and what your perceive (and oppose) as Israel's "policies" are just a reflection of its internal struggles.
Do you have a magical wand that can save Israel from itself?

Hi Yuyutsu,

I beg to differ.

Since World War II Israel has been the largest overall
recipient of US foreign aid. The BBC tell us that in 2020
the US gave $3.8 billion in aid to Israel - part of a
long term yearly commitment made under the Obama administration.
Almost all of this was for military assistance. This was
part of an over all package of $38 billion in military aid over 2017 - 2028.

Over the years the US had helped Israel develop one of the most
advanced militaries in the world with the funds allowing them
to purchase sophisticated military equipment from the US.

There's more at:

http://bbc.com/news/57170576

Dear Foxy,

With Israel's GDP of 520 Billion US dollars, 3.8 billions are a drop in the ocean.

Further, Israel cannot do whatever it likes with that money, but must use it to buy weapons from American companies. In a way, this is an internal American scheme to subsidize its own defense industry. Israeli officers admitted that at times they had to compromise on inferior weapons because their budget constrains forced them to purchase only American weapons.

Once that was important, but should American "aid" stop today (which I agree it should, with the money going to Ukraine instead), Israel would hardly feel it.

Hi Yuyutsu,

I beg to differ.

Read the link I gave. $38 billion is not a drop in the
bucket and Israel is counted one of the strongest military
powers - thanks to US support.

Miriam Margolyes in her autobiography tells us:

" Four days before my eight birthday, David Ben-Gurion,
head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the creation of
the State of Israel. I remember the cautious celebrations
at home."

"My parent were troubled by Zionism, more because they felt
the Jews having their own country would increase anti-Semitism,
rather than from a sense of the wrong done to the Palestinians."

"Because of my public refusal to support the State of Israel
, I have become unpopular with other Jews. It's difficult not
to be a Zionist when you're Jewish. There are many who think
I'm betraying my people. I've been vilified on social media,
labelled a fascist, an antisemite, a terrorist, and a
self-hating Jew."

"My position on Israel has lost me friends. Naturally this makes
me sad, but I have to tell the truth. I've seen with my own eyes
how the State of Israel is abusing the Palestinians. "

Miriam goes into detail about what she has experienced and
seen for herself in Israel. I won't go into that detail
here. Suffice to say that she ends with:

" "It's about understanding how you would feel if soldiers came
and pushed you out of your home, destroyed your orchard and
the farm that your family had owned for hundreds of years, and
made you feel like vermin in your own country. I keep saying
to British Zionists, "Please just go and look for yourself!"

Miriam attests, "I would be much easier not to speak out.
My support for the Palestine has brought me great heartache.
But I can only speak the truth. I can't accept that something
wrong is being done in my name. I am a proud Jew. I fight
anti-semitism wherever I see it. I'm not a believer, but I
adore the culture I spring from, and honour it."

"Truth is not hard to see if you open your eyes."

Injustice is injustice. It doesn't matter who is the recipient of injustice and who is the dispenser it is wrong. Miriam Margolyes has a conscience and sees injustice done to the Palestinians. The past sufferings of the Jewish people do not justify the injustice done to the Palestinians. The past actions of the Palestinians do not justify the injustice. Nothing can change what has happened, but future injustice can be avoided. As long as there is a Jewish state non-Jews will be second-class citizens. As long as there is a Buddhist, Christian, Hindu or Muslim state non-Buddhists, non-Christians, non-Hindus or non-Muslims will be second-class citizens. To eliminate religious injustice there must be separation of religion and state.

I agree with Miriam Margolyes when she says that:

"We need to encourage people to think critically about
their country and its relation to the world."

"My country right or wrong doesn't work for me. I'm on the
side of humanity. If I see a wrong, I feel I must do my
best to right it. That is who I am."

Of course religion plays a big part in many troubled lands
as we know and when you criticize their actions - you can become
persona non grata - or worse -put your life at risk. I like
Miriam believe that people have to face up to the moral
implications of their actions. But that is difficult to do
in religious states who believe that they are right.

Dear Foxy,

$38 billion is over 10 years - 3.8 billion per year.
Israel's GDP for 2022 is estimated at 520 billion USD, thus for this year, the American military aid is 0.73%.

Yes, in previous years that was a bit more, so in 2016 (that is when the sum of 38 billion USD was agreed on) when Israel's GDP was only 319 billion USD, that amounted to 1.2%

The percentage keeps decreasing.

Israel doesn't really need this money - it is the U.S.A that needs to "donate" this money as a trick to bypass its own laws and overtly subsidize its military industry. Soon America will be begging Israel!

Hi Yuyutsu,

I beg to differ.

Hi Yuyutsu,

I certainly hope that you are wrong in Israel not needing
US support. I have my fingers-crossed that a more
normal relationship - where US support was conditional
rather than automatic - one that would force Israelis to
re-consider their present course and do more to achieve an
end to the conflict. In particular that Israelis would have
to re-think the belief that Palestinians will simply
disappear and that Israelis would begin to consider
solutions that would secure the political rights of Jews and
Arabs alike.

It would be great if the US would take a rights-based approach
that would be consistent with US stated values and force
Israel to begin to dismantle its apartheid system.

That's why I am resisting your claim that Israel does not depend
on American and military support. Because that would mean that
the US does not wield significant leverage over Israel's
actions. And that would result in a question mark over any end
to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict.

Not something I want to contemplate.

Dear Foxy,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the "Palestinians" to enjoy better, more humane conditions. Don't lose hope, but that particular strategy of trying to weaken Israel, let alone by removing American military support, is most ineffective.

Historically, between 1948-1956, Israel was socialistic and depended militarily on the Soviet-Union and France, with Americans only contributing a lip-service. Relations between US and Israel started to gradually warm up from 1962 (as Israel's relations with the Soviet Union grew colder), but real aid only started following after Yom-Kippur war in 1973. By about the turn of the century, while Israel still considered that aid as nice-to-have, it no longer depended on it. The U.S.A. is aware that Israel's relations with China are quite warm and is rightly afraid that should it stop its support then Israel would turn to China instead.

Now hypothetically, even if Israel's power was halved, there would be no change to its attitude towards "Palestinians". Israel's arch-enemy is Iran, which is not even an Arab country, and Israel also fears Russia (now somewhat less once Russia is being beaten in Ukraine) which seems to stand behind Iran. But Palestinians? They are a non-player, they are terribly weak, they can at times be bothersome but can never cause Israel any significant damage. From a pure military perspective, if Israel wanted, then it could wipe them out in less than an hour (but then it would have to face censor from both the wide world and politically from within).

No, Israel does not believe (as you claim) that Palestinians would somehow disappear - it simply no longer cares whether or not they are still there, it simply has higher priorities!

Israel's weakness, though, is its internal divisions and the lack of common uniting factors: just being ethnically Jewish is not an effective glue. The one thing which united Israelis so far, is the Arab resistance and terrorism. Without it, Israel would have broken down long ago from within. Hamas knows it and also understands that without Israel they couldn't maintain their popularity and control even over Gaza, hence the rockets.

Hi Yuyutsu,

I appreciate your comments.

You may be interested in a book by Gregg Carlstrom,
"How Long Will Israel Survive? The Threat From
Within."

It was published in 2017. It deals with Israel's internal
problems. How a once unified population now fights internal
battles over religion and state, war and peace, race and
identity, contesting the very notion of a Jewish and
democratic state.

Gregg Carlstrom is a Middle-East correspondent for The
Economist based in Cairo and covering the region from
Morocco to the Gulf.

He's been a correspondent for The Times, Newsweek, BBC, CNN,
Sky News. to name just a few. He graduated from Northwestern
University in 2007 and is highly respected in his field.

I've reserved the book at my local library.

Tomorrow, Tuesday 4th October 2022, in the evening
(at sunset) is the beginning of Yom Kippur. The Holy
Day of Attonement for Jews. It finishes on Wednesday
evening 5th October 2022. I wish all Jews who take part
in this Holy Day to "Have an easy fast," and hopefully
it will be a peaceful and meaningful day in Israel.