Dear Paul,

«However, saying that I cannot divorce government from the people, or government by the people.»

I cannot cite (can you?) even one case in history where the people got up one morning and said: "let us have a state and a government".

The common scenario in the ancient world was that some greedy king/emperor raided new villages or towns and found it too difficult to [forcibly] collect their taxes because their inhabitants only bartered and had no administration or monetary system, thus the king appointed clerks to organise and streamline their economy, for his own taxes, not for the people, effectively annexing them to his state without asking their inhabitants.

Since then, the most ordinary people could do, at best, was to rebel when their king was weak and instead become the subjects of some other stronger king/regime. I know of no case where people could afford to say: "well, this experiment of having a state/government is not working, we are not happy, so let's end it".

Now when we speak of any organisation (and isn't society just that, an organisation?), one of the very first questions should be, "who is included?", "who are the members?", "in whose company are we to embark on this journey?". Naturally, one would like to travel with more-or-less like-minded people, not with absolute strangers with whom one shares no values, with whom one has no common aspirations.

Forcing one to be considered a part of a "society" and to abide by its internal rules, based merely on geography is just wrong! Everyone ought to have some space on this planet and just because one happens to park their body somewhere does not allow others to violate them.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«Then there is the question of laws, and the need for ordered society, what is the alternative?»

Voluntary-based societies.

Voluntary societies will in all likelihood be smaller, but they can still have their constitutions and laws according to the wishes of their actual members, who, remember, share together at least some values and goals.

«Once you have authority in place, which government is by necessity, established authority, then enforcement of laws becomes mandatory. If you can offer a viable working alternative, I'm willing to listen.»

What law-enforcement means, including the consequences of breaking laws, is to be defined separately by the people who form a society. Should someone later find these agreed laws draconian and unacceptable, it would then be easier to change them due to the smaller size, or otherwise to migrate away to the next valley where more acceptable laws possibly apply, or even, if living on a border, move one's home/property to the jurisdiction of the neighbouring society.

Nothing prevents voluntary societies, small as they may be, from forging cooperation agreements with other societies in whatever areas of life they agree on.

There is the possibility of people/families who live on their land without belonging to any bigger society. That is OK although they, in absence of any agreements, might find it difficult to travel anywhere outside their property. Should they live peacefully they should not be disturbed and should they create trouble (and I mean a real disturbance, rather than just failing to cooperate with the greed of their neighbours), then they can be treated like any other external enemy where a society may respond in self-defense, rather than in punishment (for breaking laws one never agreed to be subject to).

YOU paid for your pension is nonsense!
Paul1405,
Nonsense you say ? Well, when we worked we paid for the pensioners of our time just as they did for the pensioners of their time. And, just the younger now pay for us ! We're simply getting dividends for our contributions !
Your Superannuation on the other hand is fully funded by your former employer & our collective taxes.

Paul finally realises that Nazis and Communists are almost identical. This makes Paul (a member of the now defunct Aus communist party) a Nazi.

His worship of Putin and Xi shows that he still has hankerings for dictatorships and finds the gangreens the closest match.

SM,

Provide evidence I was ever a member of the "Australian Communist Party", you are a liar. You did admit on this forum you made a pilgrimage to Christchurch NZ to where the mass murderer Brenton Tarrant committed his heinous crimes. Do you now deny that?

Pauliar,

You mentioned years ago that you were a communist in your youth. So you are a liar.