Country Gal- "The Israelis bomb whole towns into submission women and children included.

Looking at this from a different perspective. Hezbollah and Hamas fire rockets from the midst of groups of women and children in towns instead of firing them from isolated areas. If they cared about the women and children they would not use them as shields and would go to areas where they alone would be targeted. Outside of civilian areas.

People still seem to have some difficulty understanding the issue I am trying to raise - I have acknowledged that there are many reasons to support Zionism - reasons to support Zionism do not address the issue I raise.

Perhaps if I put in in another context:
Imagine a Christian American President,
backed by hundreds of American Christian Churches
backing the formation and establishment
and authorizing billions of dollars in military aid
to a regime dedicated to establishing
and maintaining a Muslim state.

See the problem?

In fact, spirtually, Islam is much more sympathetic to Christianity than Judaism. Jesus is regarded as a saint in Islam - correct me if I am wrong but, in Judaism, Jesus is regarded as no-one in particular isnt he?

PERILOUS AND CJ... in my naivity I misunderstood what you mean't by 'paid up' :) I thought you meant being a subcriber to Creation Science in a literal financial sense. Silly me.

I accept the biblical accounts, yes.. as they stand. I cannot fully harmonize them with the 'present' state of science/geology, but I can adequately do so for my own peace of mind.

But to keep this all in perspective, whether one accepts the Biblical Creation and Flood accounts as literal, the point of the topic connects with the call of and promise to, Abraham, and this is ultimately what matters. The Zionists and Christian Zionists peg their claim regarding Israel to 'that'... so rather than digress and waste space on peripheral issues, feel free to challenge those points to your hearts content.

1/ Abraham was real.
2/ Abraham received the promise from God regarding his descendants and the land.
3/ That promise was confirmed to Isaac (rather than Ishmael), Jacob and the 12 tribes.
4/ Settlers base their claim on the above.
5/ Settlers ARE seeking to live in obedient conformity to the covenant which authorizes them to occupy the land under the terms of the Abrahamic/Deuteronimical covenant.
6/ Thus, in their minds they have a divine right to be there and to take it all.

Christians are irrelevant to all that. (in their minds)

ROB.. keep going.. the 'issue' is sinking in gradually :) sorry if we seem not to be getting it.

Christians will support Israel from a fulfillment of prophecy angle.

That's why you should not be surprised. I suspect that 'Presidents' do so for geopolitical reasons more than fulfillment of prophecy.

The blurring of the line between 'Christian Churches' and the President/Government may be what is confusing you.

It matters not a scrap to Christians how the 'Jews' regard Jesus (yes u were right about how they regard him) what matters to us is how God regards the Jews, and the things Jesus said Himself.
They override feelings Christians might have about Jews for any specific act they may have done. Bear in mind, the true Biblical understanding of the crucifixion of Christ is NOT 'Jews murdered Jesus' but that Gods perfect will was done.

Mark 10:45

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Isaiah 53:6

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
....the iniquity of us all.

Next time you do something which you totally regret..where you know in your heart of hearts that you deserve the most final of punishments.. where you just know that nothing human can ever fix it... think of Isaiah 53:6 -I know I do.

David - 'what matters to us is how God regards the Jews, and the things Jesus said Himself.'

Did Jesus not say, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life - none come to the Father but by me.'

That would seem to put the kybosh on members of any religion 'knowing God' unless they do so via Jesus and the Jews do not do anything via Jesus.

I hope you dont subscribe to the view that the Jews are 'God's Chosen People'. If there is a God, is it really reasonable to think that such a Being would discriminate on the basis of race?

I think the point about 'fulfillment of scripture' is probably valid - apparently some people are looking forward to Armageddon and the Rapture that hopefully precedes it. Since a lot of people are looking forward to it, I cant see any reason why they wouldnt be trying to speed it up just like people try to speed up other things to which they look forward.

Boaz, it is not good enough to make a ridiculous claim, have it challenged, and then simply change the subject.

You linked the modern-day claim of Israel to their land as being the "fulfilment of prophecy".

Boaz: "FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY.. If you asked 'modern cosmopolitan Israelis' they would not have a clue. If you ask a Settler they will refer more than likely to Ezekiel 37.. and the Covenant with Abraham... To gain an understanding of this, it is very neccessary to read Genesis 11 to the end.... Gen 11 is fascinating. Post flood genealogical connection from Noah to Abraham.... (focus on that line of descent)"

Pericles: "...you consider the story of the flood, Noah, the ark etc., to be literally true? Are you sure about this?"

Boaz: "yes, I do. Literal, real flood, real people"

Pericles: "If you believe this story, then you presumably are also have to be a fully paid-up Creationist?"

Boaz: "I am a creationist but not a paid up one... Do I believe in a literal ark ? Yep..I sure do."

Pericles "If I understand this correctly, you are linking the Israeli claim to territory with Noah... can this line of argument can be sustained, historically speaking?"

Boaz "...whether one accepts the Biblical Creation and Flood accounts as literal, the point of the topic connects with the call of and promise to, Abraham, and this is ultimately what matters."

As I understand it, this is an acceptance of the fact that your original excitement about Noah to be irrelevant.

What interests me is why you raised it in the first place. As a direct result of this piece of trivia you have outed yourself as a creationist, who believes in the literal statements made in the Bible about Adam, Eve, Noah, Ham, Shem and whatsisname...

It certainly puts all your other opinions in to context, now that we have established your basic level of credulity.

No wonder you get in a lather about other religions - with a baseline of "the Bible is literally true", you don't have a great deal of wriggle-room, do you?