Adam Bandt, leader of the Greens certainly has the courage of his convictions and admirably shewed that when he had the National Flag removed at a press conference.
His refusal to speak in front of the Australian Flag may be only a stunt but many will see it as bad taste if not downright insulting.

For a supposedly smart political party leader (with a PhD),
this move was definitely not a very smart move. He's being
very divisive in his actions - especially if he wants to
represent his entire electorate and not just a select few.
It was also disrespectful. This is our current national flag.
For which many have died. The Queen has recently celebrated
her platinum Jubilee and even our newly elected PM who happens
to support a republic - paid homage to Her Majesty and went
through various ceremonies for her in Canberra.

The republic and changing our flag is not a priority at the
moment and until the matter comes up for debate - Bandt as a
political party leader should stop doing stunt like this.

Very inappropriate, divisinve, - and a total turn off.

Shame on him!

While the displaying of the Union Jack on the Australia flag is entirely inappropriate as it represents murder, genocide and the destruction of indigenous people wherever the British invaded and hoisted their flag.
Just as it would be inappropriate for Germany to incorporate the NAZI swastika into their flag, so Australia should get rid of the Union Jack. Good on Adam Bandt for standing up on this issue.

Hi Paul,

Australia is still a constitutional monarchy with the Queen
as Sovereign. Until that changes the current flag is
appropriate.

Germany is a democratic federal parliamentary republic.
The Nazi flag would be inappropriate.

Maybe it’s not a stunt but an expression of heart felt feelings.
One wonders how many other Greens feel this way about our country; the Greens are on record as saying that China is not a threat.
Two masters?

Hi Is Mise,

"Adam Bandt, leader of the Greens certainly has the courage of his convictions and admirably shewed that when he had the National Flag removed at a press conference."

Seems a bit childish, not sure what he's trying to make a stand on, or accomplish.
- It sounds like he needs to put on his big boy pants and grow up a bit.

On a completely different note, a lot of you older blokes would know plenty about WWII.
Do any of you know anything about Operation Market Garden,
Klaus Schwab (leader of the WEF) and specifically his father who worked for I. G. Farben?

If you want some interesting reading, there's a few articles here you might be interested in.
I've been following George Webb's work since early 2016 but not a whole lot recently.
Maybe you old timers might have a better take on some of this stuff.
The last 3 articles deal specifically with some of these WWII events in Europe.
- I wasn't born until the early 70's
http://substack.com/profile/60060898-george-webb
You can also follow his daily updates here:
http://twitter.com/RealGeorgeWebb1

Sorry for going off topic Is Mise.

Yes I know what you mean Issy, the Shooters and Hooters Party in Australia are beholding to the America NRA for their existence. If it wasn't for the NRA and their back door support the S&H mob would go out of business. Sorry, with 0.1% of the national vote at the federal election they are almost out of business now.

I fail to see why the Union Jack, a symbol of oppression for indigenous people the world over, should be waived in their faces, its removal from the Aussie flag would not be before time. Next thing you will want to know why black churches and organisations in Americas deep south are not flying the Confederate flag out front, probably for much the same reason, oppression!

Senator Lydia Thorpe called the Australian flag an obscenity.
Funny that she accepts her pay from a Nation that has such an obscenity flying over the place to which she has been elected.
A person of principle would not even enter the building; but then we know that the Senator, like Bandt, is a person of principal (not a miss-spelling).

Greens hate Australia.

HawIi has the Union Jack in the canton of its flag, yet it was never British territory, it’s there as a mark of friendship, and is the only US flag to contain a foreign flag.
So much for oppression.
The Green slime is really the poisonous Red algae.

Paul1405 said- "I fail to see why the Union Jack, a symbol of oppression for indigenous people the world over, should be waived in their faces, its removal from the Aussie flag would not be before time."

Answer- There are two sides to the story. If indigenous people don't like the host peoples traditions then they can have their own flag and territory- the host peoples can still provide certain services such as defense. Let the indigenous people have a government of their people by their people for their people. If they have their own special region and it fails- they can't blame the host peoples.

Anglo-British have their flag- Aboriginals have theirs. Sorted.

I think that the Socialists and Communists are just trying to stir things up and create conflict for political reasons- in my view that includes the Greens party. This seems just another example of Trotsky's Permanent Revolution tactics against The Australian People. The Aboriginal people are not our enemies the Communists are.

But Anglo-British people cannot be steamrolled by those claiming to be acting in Aboriginal peoples interest using hard negotiating tactics.

I've talked to Aboriginals who say that they won't be happy till every Anglo-British person has left Australia either dead or alive. If this is the prevailing view then Anglo-British's only possible response is to create a workable agreement and then stick to it. Sounds like the Aboriginals in Australia will always believe that any agreement is tyranny but hopefully at some stage we will be able to have a working productive relationship. Anglo-British culture have already made many sacrifices for the relationship but Aboriginals still seem to say it's not enough- we need to move forward- preferably supporting a relationship with the Aboriginal people- but if that isn't possible we need to be willing to walk away from the negotiation. We can't be held hostage to bad faith negotiation tactics

At some stage that has to mean that each side will respect each others point of view without agreeing with it.

Obviously it's a problem when the majority believe differently to a minority- let the the minority have their own special region and their culture can live or die on it's own merits.

In Aboriginal Territory they can have their own sovereignty- in Anglo-British Territory, Aboriginals need to obey Anglo-British rules.

Thanks Is Mise, Armchair Critic, ttbn- kudos.

As the only socially progressive party in the Australian parliament it's important that the GREENS stand up for the rights of Aboriginal people. There is no doubt the British Union Jack on our flag symbolises the brutal oppression inflicted on first Australians from the day Arthur Phillip and his invading forces raised his abominable flag at Sydney Cove.

Good to see Premier Dom in NSW is demanding the Aboriginal flag be permanently flown on top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Once the WW of W expires and Australia becomes a republic we can move on from our colonial past.

"HawIi" is that some mythical land on the planet Zog? Issy, I assume you mean Hawaii. If you read the history of Hawaii and native involvement with European settlers, its not a pleasant one from the native perspective. The Hawaiian Homestead Act removed all land title from native people.

In the early 1990's Qld Deputy Premier Tom Burns told me that Labor's desire was to make Cape York the "indigenous State" of Australia !
They have sufficient resources as has WA. Will Australians go along with that or will they do a Putin ?

Greens are claimed by some of the permanently blinkered to be progressive, I’ll agree with that; progressive like a cancer..

If the power to expel politicians had not been given up in 1987, Bandt could have been kicked out for his disgraceful insult to the flag.

This country needs to toughen up against the increasingly dangerous enemy within - the Greens party.

Note that all the Greens MsP swear or affirm allegiance to Australia and at that swearing in the Australian flag is present.
People of principle would object, but to be not sworn in would affect their pay, and they would never let principle get in the way of monetary reward.
We should also remember that these hypocrites swear allegiance to the Queen of Australia.

«Note that all the Greens MsP swear or affirm allegiance to Australia and at that swearing in the Australian flag is present.»

Yes, and that is absolutely wrong - it places them in a conflict of interest. One cannot be simultaneously loyal to "Australia" and to the electors whom they are supposed to represent!

«People of principle would object, but to be not sworn in would affect their pay, and they would never let principle get in the way of monetary reward.»

Exactly: they should be paid for their service by those they serve - their electors!

Ah! nothing like a bit of flag waving when it comes to this far right mob. Nothing fires up these extreme nationalists with their xenophobia than to march around with a flag, in fact lots of flags. Was it not Horrible Hanson the Princess of Obscenity who draped herself in the Australian flag?

Good news for some, bad news for you mob, Victoria is going to ban the open display of the Nazi swastika, there goes your Sunday afternoon parade.

I've worked it out Issy wasn't referring to Hawaii when he said "HawIi", no "HawIi" is the promised land where all good National Socialists can go, and wave flags to their hearts content.

Seems that it wasn’t a political stunt but has been long standing Greens’ policy to insult the Australian flag.
Bandt has apparently had it removed before his other press conferences.
Bandt reminds me of Adolph Hitler but without the charisma.

A lawyer and lifelong advocate for the human rights of Aboriginal women and children, told 'The Australian' she had known Bandt since law school and that he had never shown any interest in Indigenous issues. Yet Bandt uses an issue he has never been interested in to insult our history and the flag that our countrymen died fighting under. And the awful creature will get away with it.

Say what you like Issy,

The Australian flag has be disgraced many a time, home and abroad, dragged through the mud by murderous mercenaries in such places as Korea, Vietnam and now we can add Afghanistan. Waving the national symbol whilst murdering innocent civilians.

I support the removal of the Union Jack, from the Australian flag, a symbol of tyranny and oppression of native people the world over, millions of innocent people were slaughtered under that flag in the name of colonialism, at least 12,000 Aboriginals murdered during the Colonial Wars of the 19th and 20th centuries, a small number of the total deaths caused by colonialism and government sanctioned genocide. The far right jackboot brigade always use flag waving as an excuse for their extremist agenda.

The Pommy flag on the Australian flag is just as insulting to some as if they put the Nazi swastika on the Israeli flag!

Poseidon Poles and Flags gave NSW government a vastly lower price to install Aboriginal flag on Sydney Harbour Bridge 650K
http://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/poseidon-poles-and-flags-gave-nsw-government-a-vastly-lower-price-to-install-aboriginal-flag-on-sydney-harbour-bridge/news-story/50ff37608ab4abace2727437bb6bb8be

Even 650k seems a little pricey in my opinion
- But at least its 24+ Million less than what Perrottet is willing to spend.

The thing that gets me...
They try to pull this crap on a day when this news also comes out.
NSW budget deficit more than triples to $11.3 billion
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-21/nsw-budget-deficit-more-than-trebles/101169652

- It's no wonder their budget blew out with this fool in charge.
I'd be willing to be that if it was coming out of his own pocket NSW would instead be in surplus.
I used to say these pollies must think we're idiots.
Maybe they've moved on and have simply decided that WE ARE idiots.
- That's all I can come up with.

Jacinta Price, an Aboriginal. MP who really fights for her people, rejects all that Bandt has to say about the flag, but then she’s not on the Aboriginal Industry gravy train.She is proud to be an Australian citizen and proud of our flag.

it’s no use engaging with dyed in the wool Greens as when they can’t find facts to back up their fantasies they blatantly lie.

Price strongly opposed the creation of the "Indigenous voice to government", Price has criticised public interest in Indigenous deaths, Price has pushed back against claims of systemic racism in the Australian prison system, In 2018, Price supported the "Save Australia Day" campaign promoted by Mark Latham, In 2021, she criticised the push to change the date of Australia Day. In 2020, Price was successfully sued for defamation by Nova Peris, she accused Peris of protecting sexual predators. She likes to refer to aboriginal actives as "white". In 2019 she ran in the NT seat of Lingiari, where she was soundly defeated by the Aboriginal vote. She crawled into the senate in 2022 as last pick.

Wow, Whose interested in what a misguided Ms Price has to say on aborignal matters. George Hanna in 2019, her Greens opponent in Lingiari, who is also Aboriginal, referred to her as a "coconut". The term is used to describe individuals deemed "black on the outside, white on the inside".

Did she say what Issy claims, maybe, maybe not, who knows. I could say Elephant Bob from the Shooters and Hooters party wants the stars removed from the Aussie flag and replaced with swastikas.

Sounds as if Jacinta Price is the real deal, an.attack by a Green must be seen as an endorsement.

A really crappy upbringing and a subsequently crappy life is the only thing that could explain the bitterness and nastiness of these Greens. They missed the boat, so they hate everything and everyone.

What a beat up, Adam Bandt DID give his press conference in front of an OFFICIAL AUSTRALIAN FLAG. In fact in front of two of them. The British Union Jack is not an official flag of Australia, its in the category as Nazi flags and any other rapid right wing flags you guys might have in your possession.

Even the NRA have an official flag, Issy, does it fly above the Shooters and Hooters HQ in downtown Hicksville? Me thinks it does.

Issy, your Shooters and Hooters mob have no worries about swearing anything as MP's, with 0.1% of the popular vote they have no chance of representing anyone ever.

Endorsement after endorsement; when will the desperation end?

This Jacinta Price is so bad, even the voters in the seat of Lingiari who are 80% Aboriginal preferred a white man in 2019 to represent them, and not this COCONUT. In 2022 she had to rely on the votes of red necks and the Fascists party One Nation preferences to crawl into the Senate.

Issy, you sure can pick em' Like this Jacinta Price. Even an American negro tried to joint the US Nazi Party in 1935, he thought all black people were bad. His application was rejected, even the Nazi's thought he was crazy. I'm not sure but I think his name was Price.

More and more people are speaking out against Bandt, the Prime Minister, Bill Shorten and other MsP, sporting personalities, ex-service groups.Some people are calling him a traitor.
Google has lots of info.
One ex-service group has started a petition against him.

Some people are asking why he accepts the salary; I know why. . . Cash before principle .

Republican members of the Northern Ireland Parliament are not paid because they refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen.

The Greens should take a leaf out of their book.

Only really sick wackos are not against Bandt. He is an utter disgrace, not just as a politician, but also as a human being. Nothing can redeem him.

Albo, has no problem taking GREEN votes and preferences when it suits him. If Albo is such a man of principle then he will refuse GREEN support in the Senate, they can get an extra large Union Jack, and he and Horrible Hanson can wrap themselves up together.

As for the old soaks down at Gods Waiting Room, who cares what they think. They should fess up to what they done under the Australian flag in places like Korea and Vietnam.

One can understand why the Irish wouldn't swear allegiance to the WW of W, she like her flag represents the murder and genocide of thousands of their innocent countrymen at the hands of British.

The Union Jack is a symbol of oppression and as far as Australia is concerned it should be consigned to the dust bin of history. I'm sure you guys would want the swastika on the Israeli flag and have the members of the Knesset swear an oath on Hitlers 'Mein Kampf'.

I note no one here is willing to challenge the fact the Pommy flag represents murder and genocide of indigenous people over the past 500 years. No wonder the sight of it is so hated by so many.

WOW ! 1

her flag represents the murder and genocide of thousands of their innocent countrymen at the hands of British
Paul145,
Yes and, it also represents services to humanity to a very high degree. Also represented are the systems of welfare & commerce which has been adopted by all around the Globe.
As you of all people here should know, many of the conflicts arose by small numbers of thinkers among those countries colonised by the British, were eager to adopt British knowhow but the anarchists among those people opted for conflict rather than progress. Much like Bandt & Co are doing here. The rewards our generation enjoyed were not due to diligence & common sense from this generation, they were from generations before who had the unenviable task of dealing with past likes of Bandt & Co.

Pauliar,

You are clearly racist calling Jacinda Price a coconut. You should be ashamed.

I believe this is the first time that Adam Bandt
has refused to stand in front of the current
Australian flag. What his motivations are - none
of us really know. The fact remains that he is an
elected official of the Australian parliament and
as such he is required to serve the country and
her people - which means serving under the current
flag. At least that's how I understand things.

On the other side of the coin if I was living in
either Germany, or Lithuania - would I stand as a
member of parliament in front of the swastika or
the hammer and sickel?

I don't know - to be honest, if I would be that brave
back then.

At least in Adam Bandt's case - his life is not under
threat or in any danger - for having done it. So it's
not really such a brave thing to have done. It does
appear to be more of a stunt.

Self-hatred is a disease of the West, unknown in other societies.

Self-hatred, self-guilt, and shame, are important
factors in some of the many mental disorders worldwide.
Common amongst Afro-Americans, Catholics, Jews, LGBT
and individuals, to name just a few.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_hatred

Issy, when you were fighting as a mercenary, under what foreign flag were you doing so, and you were paid to shoot at innocent people. Correct

shonky, in this case Price is referred to as a coconut, she is obviously brown on the outside, white in the middle.

We have 3 official flags in Australia, there is no need for any MP to give a press conference in front of one or the other, or any of them for that matter, its not a legal requirement. End of story. Why stand in front of the Australian flag when it contains the Union Jack which is stained with indigenous blood. If you want to defend aboriginal people, then fronting the murderous Pommy flag would be hypocritical.

I don't need to defend Adam Bandt's action, as it was absolutely correct. No one can defend the murder and genocide associated with the Pommy flag. Within two years of raising the Union Jack at Sydney cove, hundreds of Aboriginals had either been slaughtered or succumbed to European small pox, that continued for the next 200 years..

Any sitting member of the Australian parliament
should not object to standing in front of the
Australian flag. It is inappropriate for a member
of parliament to reject the Australian flag.

Don't Aborigines regard themselves as Australians?

If we are to have reconciliation in this country - we
need unity, not division. And we're not going to get
it by divisive acts such as this one.

Foxy,

The pedogreens think that everyone else should feel guilty. The problem is that the rest of Aus does not give a hoot about what they or other fringe groups think.

Is Mise said- "progressive like a cancer.."

Answer- Yes interesting- thanks Is Mise. Perhaps this- First the Green's were a benign tumor but now they are an aggressive malignant metastatized tumor- like breast cancer. They've now got life extending treatments for breast cancer that extend the mean time to expire from 5 to 20 years- maybe we'll be able to do the same with The Greens threat.

Maybe we can go over "Otto Warburg's" notes to see if it provides a solution (his family were converted Hebrew's).

He talked about the immortality gene that drives cancer- seems to have some similarity with the seemingly immortal Socialism and Communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Heinrich_Warburg

Picking over a select group of historical wrongs will not help solve our current problems.

People hone in on Western behaviour, remove it from the context of time, ignore non-Western parallels, and exaggerate what the West actually did.

Bandt doesn’t object to sitting in Parliament under the Australian flag, that’s where he gets paid.
A man of principle would refuse to sit under the Flag and foregp the money.

Issy,

You are only whinging because the GREENS did so well at the recent election, its all sour grapes on your part, you and the like minded are pissed off, no two ways about it. Adam Bandt 60% two party preferred, was elected in a landslide in the seat of Melbourne. The far right party you support One Nation got 1% of the vote. The joke party the Shooters didn't even score 0.1% of the national vote, looks like their policy of wanting to arm kindy kids backfired!

How about you fess up about what went on in Korea when you were fighting for a foreign power. How many women and children were murdered, by war criminals fighting under a foreign flag. You like to keep silent on that subject, because you and I both know the truth, and its a very shameful one, flag or no flag..

Paul1405 has a point regarding the British & he hasn't. Yes, foreign powers have been & are interfering even now (Russia-Ukraine) with heavy loss of life.
Much of this "interfering" is done to protect, exploit & disrupt those who protect, exploit & disrupt.
Just like Bandt & Co are now protecting their existence by exploiting & disrupting those whose support they're callously embraced.
The accusations of genocide & murder are genuine grounds for bringing up a bloody past on both sides.
No-one culture/society is blameless & the Greens are focussed on ensuring on-going disunity & disfunction in our society. Paul1405 is one of the clearest examples of one who simply does not wish to close the "gap" nor see a harmonious future. By his own words he quoted someone who said they'll not rest until the last colonial (British ?) are gone from this country. I wonder if he includes all non-white conlonists in this ?

I've been looking at a lot of stuff here and there for many years.
Whats going on mainly comes down to a handful of people.

Rothschilds, Prince Bernhard, Klaus Schwab, Henry Kissinger...
Then you go further on down the list and there's heaps more.
A private little club, and we're not in it.

Our resident Dr Goebells persists in the Nazi belief.that if you tell lies often and repeatedly then eventually someone will believe them.

It would seem that Irish Republicans have many more principles than Australian Greens.

Many of those that have engaged in state sanctioned murder, will justify their actions in the name of patriotism, often attempting to legitimise their vile actions by cloaking themselves in their nationalistic flag.

What is inescapable about the Australian flag is that it contains within the Union jack, which itself is a symbol of murder and genocide, up there with the Nazi swastika and the Communist hammer and sickle. The Union Jack has no relevance to a modern multicultural Australia, and is nothing more than an anachronism from a bygone colonial past.

Paul1405,
The Union Jack is not a "Symbol of murder & genocide" ! Murder & genocide were committed by members of the nation under the Union jack.
It'd be like saying the Aboriginal flag is a symbol of drunkeness which of course it is not but you seem to imply the parallel.

Hi Issy,

Since your pathetic jackboot party got less than 0.1% of the popular vote, while the GREENS scored millions of such votes, you would like to exclude the GREENS from the democratic process. Plenty will be heard in the Parliament from GREEN MP's and Senators, can't say the same for your fascists mob who no one voted for.

How about letting us into the sordid secrets you hold within, concerning your days as a mercenary under a foreign flag.

p/s If you're so patriotic, how many Aussie Flags are flying at your house? Unlike you I have and official flag in my tree at the end of my veranda, the wife put it there. WHERE'S YOURS!

BTW; I'm adding the American flag to the Union Jack, Nazi Swastika, and the Commie Hammer and sickle, as the flags that represent murder and genocide. I may add more later, it goes without saying those ridiculous NRA and SSAA flags are OUT!

Jahwol, Herr Goebbels.

It has been suspected for a long time that the Australian chapter of the NRA, the SSAA and their political front the Shooters and Hooters Party of Australia are financed by a secret foreign slush fund operated by the NRA. Why is it that the SSAA flag is a direct takeoff of the Yankee NRA flag? How Un-Australian,not only that, this disgusting flag is blazoned with GUNS!

Flags and war crimes

From Korea to Vietnam and then onto Afghanistan, it is a terrible inescapable fact that Australasian's whilst fighting under the Australian flag committed terrible war crimes of murder.

“Consequently, a nation that has cherished and so proudly celebrated its soldier heritage must now confront the fact that some of its military elite may be cold-blooded killers.” Andrew Probyn ABC.

Issy, why do you refuse to answer my reasonable questions, and why do you not respond to the facts I present. Can't defend the indefensible I suspect.

Issy, I want to thank you for raising this topic, together we have been able to establish that murder and genocide was committed in Australia under the Union Jack, and war crimes were committed in far off places such as Korea under the Australian flag. Flag wavers have a lot to answer for, don't you agree?

Dr Goebells is getting more desperate.

Issy, you cannot respond to the truth, so you resort to this "Goebells" nonsense. Don't even know who this Dr Goebells is, is he an animal doctor on Harry's Practice?

If you want to try and ridicule me with nonsense about Dr Goebbels, at least try getting the spelling of his name correct.

Dr. Goebbels has truthfully responded for once, he corrected the misspelling of his name.

Is Mise

Your reference to Joseph Goebbells seems to be appropriate in regard to the Greens.

In The Great Global Warming Swindle, Martin Durkin describes how the the modern environmental movement "dips its lid to German Nazi Party". (See: "The Nazis’ Favourite Colour? Deep, Dark Green", Alistair Crooks, 24/6/22).

Hitler placed a great store on a 'green agenda'.

" … that the absurd green fantasies of the Nazis were impractical did not seem to disturb them, as indeed it seems not to disturb greens today".

" ….the idealisation of nature and the organic, the nostalgia for old feudal Germany, the idealisation of peasant life, and anti-capitalism were defining features of both the Volkish movement and the Nazi movement, and are prominent features of green thinking today".

The greens logo is a stop sign for work, investment or any type of industry and is the trademark of virtue signalling tossers.

Hi Issy,

Not only is your spelling atrocious, your comprehension is just as bad. When I say; "at least try getting the spelling of his name (Goebbels) correct", don't you understand I'm not talking about myself, but someone else. Did you not say once, when you were in Korea you would take pot shots at children for fun, I hope your aim then was as bad as your spelling is now.

I see you have been joined by another couple of members of the rabid right, if a few more turn up you will be able to form your own platoon of the 'Volkssturm'.

Paul1405,
if my memory serves me right, I seem to recall quite a number of Australian indigenous being portrayed as war heroes and, they most certainly were in comparison to the the picture you leave of yourself to one's imagination !

Seems that the Herr Dr. Goebbles doesn’t comprehend that the misspelling of his name (and the correct spelling) was deliberate as it was in earlier posts, just to see how his comprehension was.
Don’t bother to respond Herr Doktor we’ve had enough lies for now.

He could have made a statement saying
"I don't particularly like standing in front of this flag, as it represents many things that as Australian's we shouldn't be proud of."

Failing to stand in front of it at all, says he has no respect at all for our country, and has no right to hold a position of leadership.
- In that case maybe all the other politicians should have taken turns holding him down and using the flag and flagpole as a golf club to smack his butt with.
- One turn each, all you pollies line up and do this man a service to your country
- This hurts us more than it hurts you Adam.

Maybe he'd then think a little bit harder about how to make his points without engaging in divisiveness and disunity.

There are no war hero's, only cannon fodder and those who make it back alive.

This propensity to violence, seems to be a far right obsession. There's one who liked to take pot shots at little children, note he does not deny it, possibly confusing his spelling, then there is another who wants to belt people with poles whilst wrapping themselves in flags. Chaps, there are places you can go, and for a fee there are people within who will do that sort of stuff to you.

The Herr Doktor is getting really desperate.

How about Thorpe, who doesn't see herself as Australian, and openly admits that she lied about everything to get into the Senate - where she has no right to be because as she has no loyalty to Australia.

The Greens exist only because their is no Communist Party for them to join.

Dear Ttbn,

I must admit that I haven't been following this discussion, mainly because of too much bad names and personal insults, but I do come back from time to time to check whether anyone replied to my posts, and found your post which is refreshingly decent.

I do not know who this Thorpe is, nor would I bother to find out.
You say s/he is a senator and that s/he lied his/her way to the Senate.

Well if s/he lied to his/her voters, then that is a very serious matter and so wrong.

But, if s/he told the truth to his/her voters, telling them openly that s/he does not see him/herself as Australian, yet they voted for him/her anyway, then s/he has every right to be in the Senate and represent them there, even if s/he had to lie to the authorities due to their unjust and unreasonable demand of loyalty to Australia rather than to her voters.

Yuyutsu,

There is nothing "unjust and unreasonable" about the expectation of loyalty to Australia from all Australians, particularly politicians, and even more particularly, politicians who get the job in the Senator by dint of position on the party ticket and a ridiculously low number of votes they don't have to work for like lower house politicians do. Thorpe is there to represent her state, not a particular group of people in that state, nor to spout her own, clearly seditious, views. There was a time when she and Bandt could have been removed from parliament, and I, for one, very much miss that provision.

You say that you don't know anything about Thorpe. Might I suggest you find out about her, and other politicians who are supposed to be working for their keep, not just spouting slogans and telling the people who pay them how awful they are?

Dear Ttbn,

I have no time or interest to go researching about individual politicians, thus for the purpose of this discussion I accept whatever you say about this Thorpe at face value, that "there is this Thorpe person in the Senate who did such and such" - I would only use him/her as an example anyway.

«There is nothing "unjust and unreasonable" about the expectation of loyalty to Australia from all Australians»

Would you care to provide me with any intelligent explanation why you think that to be the case, why those who were born or happen to live in this continent owe any loyalty to the state of Australia, just like why those who were born or happen to live in China owe any loyalty to the state of China or those who were born or happen to live in Russia owe any loyalty to the state of Russia?

By "intelligent" I mean any argument that is more convincing than "well, if they don't oblige then they will be beaten with a big stick".

As for politicians, I believe that they should represent the views of their voters - neither of any state, nor of any political party, nor their own, nor of any other organisation, whatever these views are, including loyal or otherwise. Since there are several views in the community, there are in a democracy also several politicians to attempt representing them all. SO LONG AS they faithfully represent their electors, removing a politician, for whatever reason, is equivalent to silencing their electors - only the electors should be able to remove their own representative.

Hi Yuyutsu,

What the likes of ttbn and others can't stomach is the fact that those they support, the rabid right are abject failures at the ballot box. Australians simply won't support them, so they demand those who are supported (elected) should cow-tail to their way of thinking, while such people and their ideas are unrepresentative. Lidia Thorpe was easily returned as a Greens Senator for Victoria with a personal vote of 40,174, and an overall Green vote of 484,561, whilst the lead candidate for Is Mise's Shooters Party in that state scored a miserable 2,642 about 1/20th of Lidia's vote or 0.004 of a quota, one of the first candidates eliminated.

"Greens senator Lidia Thorpe said Australia’s flag does not represent her and it only represents the “colonisation” of the country."

Totally agree with Lidia, whilst the Australian flag contains the British Union Jack it symbolises colonial murder and genocide of our First Nations people. I'm not big on flags, and flag waving, they are used too often to engender nationalistic hate for others, rather than being a positive symbol of inclusion and unification.

If these guys were in Germany, they would want the Nazi swastika on the national flag, just to rub Jewish noses in it, that's how far right they are.

Pauliar,

Considering that Lidia Thorpe is more British than aboriginal, the union Jack should represent her perfectly. But what else could we expect from a gold digger that never gave a crap about her aboriginality until she realised that there was a lot of money in being a sanctimonious hypocrite.

Dear Paul,

With due respect, you have not addressed the specific issues I raised.

You seemed to explain why a particular Australian politician was legitimately elected, while I insisted on the universal principle of true representation.

You seemed to provide specific reasons why people ought not be loyal to Australia and respect its flag, while I stated in the most general terms that people need not be loyal to their countries (unless of course they want to), nor need to provide any reason(s) for their disloyalty.

shonky, a typical racists statement by you, "Considering that Lidia Thorpe is more British than aboriginal" Provide evidence? If Lidia Thorpe identifies as aboriginal, then she is aboriginal. What do you identify as?

Yuyutsu, I contend that the Australian flag in its present form is disrespectful of aboriginal Australian's. To give pride of place on our flag to a foreign flag, aka Union Jack, which for many symbolises murder and genocide. Is that how you unite all people, As I said flags are often used for the wrong reasons. There is no requirement that anyone has to do anything in respect to the Australian flag, that is just a demand from the rabid right. Why do you want to impose this loyalty provision, when no such provision exists.

If a far right government was to gain power in Germany, entirely possible, and that government issues an edict that the Nazi swastika is to be incorporated into the national German flag as a sign of past German greatness, how should Germany's 120,000 Jews react. They would be "disloyal" would they not, if they failed to respect and honour the national flag. What's your take on that?

shadowminister,

What a toxic, bitter little tosser you constantly show yourself to be.

Thorpe left school at 14 and had her first child at 17 but has managed to endure and become a powerful voice for Victorian aboriginal communities.

She comes from a long line of powerful aboriginal women and for you to say her aboriginality is just a convenience shows how utterly bereft of empathy you are.

"Her grandmother, Alma Thorpe, set up the state's first Aboriginal health service. Ms Thorpe's great-grandmother Edna Brown started the Aboriginal Funeral Fund in the 1960s, when many Aboriginals were buried as paupers. Her mother Marjorie Thorpe was a co-commissioner of the National Inquiry into the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from the families."

The Age.

Dear Paul,

My simple answer to you is that I do not believe in flags.

You ask: "Is that how you unite all people", but I never claimed that I want to unite anyone with anyone. We are already infinitely united in God, so where is the need and how possibly could we be "more united"?

You ask: "Why do you want to impose this loyalty provision", but have I not made it clear enough already that I don't want to impose loyalty of any kind?

You ask me about my feelings if the Nazi Swastika was incorporated in the national German flag. Well firstly as a Hindu, the Swastika is considered an auspicious symbol (which the Nazis stole for their evil purposes, but that does not make it theirs!), but that's not the point: why should Germans have and respect a flag to begin with, same for Australians!

If you need to have it explained to you why we should be loyal to a country like Australia (I don't say all countries), then it seems to me that I would be wasting my time: you will never be convinced. And, sadly, I don't believe that you deserve to live here. You came here by choice. Perhaps you should revisit the reasons you came here. You might be able to answer your own question - or not. Probably not. But, I can't help you to feel what I feel, or what other patriotic Australians feel. I think that you must be a very sad character, and I feel sorry for you because I don't think that you are a bad person.

Hi Paul1405
"then there is another who wants to belt people with poles whilst wrapping themselves in flags."

I acknowledged that he could have made a statement saying
"I don't particularly like standing in front of this flag, as it represents many things that as Australian's we shouldn't be proud of."
- As long as you don't say that crap on Anzac Day, then it's ok to have your opinion in an effort to create the change you want.

I've got a bit of Indigenous in me, and I even support things that are better for the environment.

If you think I was being a bit harsh, then I don't really think I was.
Having your ass paddled with the flag and flagpole for disrespecting it when you're supposed to work towards unity and lead by example is some kind of fair justice.

On the other hand maybe I was too harsh.
- Because he doesn't deserve to stand in front of our flag as a leader in the first place,
(And that includes the flaws the flag represents)

Dear Ttbn,

I thank you for your honest response which comes from the heart.

I find Australia a wonderful country with wonderful people.

My issues have nothing to do with this country or its people - I only have issues with the organisation which claims to run this continent and its surrounding islands, and the main issue is that this organisation forces itself and its laws on anyone who happens to live here (including those whose only "fault" was to be born here). That is violence and I cannot be proud to belong or loyal to a violent organisation that forces itself on others.

You say that I came here by choice.

This is technically correct.

However, I escaped from another country which has the same problem and no place on this planet is free from the bane of similar organisations (in fact, these organisations are now discussing how to exert their control over space, the moon and Mars as well). My conscience could not allow me to be loyal to the country I was born in, nor to any other country (presently all, sadly) so long as they practice this violence, yet the laws of physics require that in order to live I must have a body and that this body be parked somewhere on this planet.

Claiming that I do not deserve to live here, is equivalent to saying that I do not deserve to live anywhere on earth (and soon not even elsewhere in this solar system). What has the world come to where conscientious people who are unwilling to partake in violence, are told that they do not deserve to live.

Hi AC,

I'm not into violence, and I can't accept ramming flag poles up the rear end of anyone, and certainly not a Green politician. I would suggest that sometime in the future when we once more visit the issue of a republic, we also consider a flag change, nothing radical, just the removal of the Union Jack and its replacement with a patch of blue. Many Commonwealth countries have chosen to exclude the Union Jack from their national flag, no doubt for the reasons that it does engender unpleasant memories from a colonial past.

I said previously politicians and others give flags a bad name, instead of making them a symbol of national unity for good, some use the flag to instil division within society and promote hate. Far worse than Banbt putting the Australian flag to one side was the sight of Hanson wrapping herself in the same flag. Instead of promoting a message of unity Hanson was using the flag as a symbol of division and exclusion, which in turn promotes hate within society. There is a fine line between the loyalty of patriotism and the evils of excessive nationalism. Hanson and those of One Nation are evil nationalists and not good patriots.

Hi Paul1405,

I never said ram the pole up his date, I just said paddle his butt with it.
I feel a bit sad and sombre about the state of our country today all things told.
Some people might think the changes we've seen in our country have been progress for the better, but I'm not convinced.
I feel as though it's been a slow noose and a downwards spiral as much as there's any achievements worth celebrating.

The flag...
Not sure I even want to go there right now.
This country has changed so much over the years I barely recognise it as my country and my people anymore.

Hi Ac,

I accept you said paddle and not ram, okay,

No one is completely conservative, just as no one is completely progressive, you and I included. As we get older we generally become more conservative. we tend to look back through rose coloured glasses at the good times, forgetting the bad.

"This country has changed so much over the years I barely recognise it as my country and my people anymore." Pontious Maximus could have said the same thing in 57AD; "These young ones today, staying out all night at the Colosseum. listening to drums and bells, where has that good old harp gone. You can't even get a decent feed of ocelot tongues and flamingo eyes anymore, all this fast food at McMarcus, Tortoise burgers and leopard fries, I tell ya what's this empire coming to, its enough to make a man go off and join the Visigoths! Good band that mob, Visigoths, I think they are playing at the Amphitheatre this week, nothing like watching a bit of old time pillage and plunder! It warms the heart, and reminds me of my days in the Seventh Legion, back in Gall, now those were the days of good old pillage and plunder for ya.

SR,

Stop being such a sanctimonious fwit. You claim that she comes from a long line of powerful Aboriginal women yet LT refuses to give out any information on her family. That she belongs to a long line of single mothers suggests that she comes from the shallow end of the gene pool.

Lidia is the perfect Green, her qualifications include:
A high school dropout,
pregnant teen,
Unrehabilitated bankrupt, (which should preclude you from parliament) who is now worth about $3m after getting involved in politics. I would suggest that she should be first in line to face a Federal ICAC.