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The Forum > General Discussion > Young Israelis imprisoned for refusing to serve in the military

Young Israelis imprisoned for refusing to serve in the military

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A story on ABC News this evening highlighted an Israeli daughter, forced to spend 30 days in prison for refusing mandatory military service in Israel, which is compulsory after high school.

Shahar Perets, the daughter in question, has refused four times to be part of mandated military service in Israel and her mother was very proud of her stance, with Shahar stating she will maintain her "anti occupation activism".

An Israeli MP said in the story however compulsory military service was a way of "melting everyone into one stock", with the story showing many young people trained to use weaponry, guns and firearms. It was heartbreaking to see their lives wasted away using such items that kill others.

It is right though for people to be forced into compulsory, mandated military service in Israel and should young people have to go to prison for taking a stance against compulsory military service in a modern age?

http://english.alaraby.co.uk/news/two-israelis-jailed-refusing-military-conscription
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 23 January 2022 7:53:54 PM
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In Israel military service is compulsory for men and
women and if you repeatedly refuse such behaviour results in
jail sentences.

The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that refusal was
"legal on the grounds of unqualified pacifism" but that
"selective refusal" which accepts some duties and not others
was illegal. That allowing "selective refusal" would "weaken
the ties that bind us as a nation."

Exemptions for women is covered by Section 39 of the Israel
Security Service Law which states the grounds from service
in the Israel Defence Force include - marriage, pregnancy,
or parenthood.

It appears that the young lady has decided on what she chooses
to do.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 January 2022 10:57:30 AM
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What can be done about it, Nathan. More to the point, what can you do about it? All you get from worrying about, even thinking about, things over which you have no control only leads to frustration and depression. We have pretty much lost control of the people doing unpleasant things in our own country; we cannot hope to influence or control foreigners.

As for anyone getting locked up for not wanting to do national service, one of my younger brothers was locked up by the Australian federal government for refusing to register during the Vietnam War. The silly bugger wrote to defence minister and told him that he wasn't going to register.

Australians have always been against conscription, and it has occurred only during times of war. The thing about Israel, Nathan, is that it is on a permanent war footing, thanks to the the permanent threat from Islamists surrounding it. We cannot allow our own relatively safe position and situation to judge other countries.

Perhaps they should have locked up the 'proud' mother as well. She apparently thinks it's OK for others to protect her and her family.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 24 January 2022 11:03:59 AM
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ttbn,

<<What can be done about it, Nathan.>>

To advocate against these types of moves by a Government, any Government. To force people into military training is in my opinion not only terrible but sending a message that the use of firearms and weaponry is acceptable, when we as people should be moving towards peaceful moves to resolve any matters that arise.

It seems many Governments including Australia, still see violence as the way forward on so many matters, when it is not. If anything it should be a last resort, not a first option.

It is sad this principle is still continuing.

Quotes from Martin Luther King’s sermon at the Ebenezer Baptist Church on April 30, 1967 opposing the Vietnam War and calling for “a revolution of values”.

“The time has come for America to hear the truth about this tragic war. There comes a time when silence is betrayal… there are those who are seeking to equate dissent with disloyalty. It’s a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method to silence dissent. Something is happening and people are not going to be silenced. The truth must be told… the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today, my own government.”

“There will be no meaningful solution until some attempt is made to know these people [the Vietnamese], and hear their broken cries. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death. Come home, America. I call on Washington today. I call on every man and woman of good will all over America today.”

As a person I want to support those who advocate for world peace. I will not support those who engage in violence. The brainwashing of young people by the Israeli Government, any Government into a belief that military action is fine, is fundamentally wrong as is the Government there throwing those into prison who disagree to participate in such an evil activity.
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 24 January 2022 4:49:56 PM
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Foxy,

<<It appears that the young lady has decided on what she chooses
to do.>>

She's been forced into such a move, that being going to prison by the Government. In no way has she decided. I would also argue she now has a criminal record against her name also, which is hardly favourable, in the context it could inhibit her from undertaking certain activities or not look very good on her resume or CV when applying for a job or if she needs a future police check in terms of employment.
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 24 January 2022 4:56:12 PM
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Short answer, Yes.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 24 January 2022 5:14:14 PM
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Hi Nathan,

The young lady made her choice. She chose not to
go into the army. And of course that is her right.
It's the same as with Novak Djokovic not wanting
to get vaccinated. With any choice in life there
usually are consequences. She's lived in Israel
long enough to know what the outcomes would be.
And she did refuse multiple times.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 24 January 2022 5:38:22 PM
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Nathan,

How do you intend to "advocate against these types of moves" by the Israeli government? The Israelis themselves, including the girl locked up, who think the same way you do haven’t had much luck in the 73 years since the state of Israel was founded.

How will you "support" those who "advocate for world peace"? Just agreeing with a certain point of view or posting your opinion on the internet won't be of much use. Besides, it is the terror groups regularly attacking Israel who need to desist in their aggression against Israel, which has a right to protect itself. How would you advocate against Hamas, for example, and its backer, Iran, the country that has vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

I don't think the young people of Israel are "brainwashed" - apart from the girl in choky for refusing to train, that is. The majority of Israelis are aware that, if they are not trained and prepared militarily, they will be slaughtered by their sworn enemies. It's easy to have fine opinions in the safety of Australia. Israelis don’t have the same luxury
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 24 January 2022 6:06:13 PM
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WGaS?

Dan doesn’t!
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 6:15:20 AM
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Conscription is one of the worst forms of slavery.

There can be no justification for it, not even a justifiable fear of death and destruction.

If a country is worth defending then the people to willingly defend it will be found, but a country that employs such atrocities may not be worthy of being defended and the people it abuses with conscription will join its enemies.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 1:16:47 PM
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Yuyutsu,
‘…will join its enemies”.

Care to tell us how many conscripts went over to the enemy in WWII?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 2:04:41 PM
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Is Mise,

<<‘…will join its enemies”.>>

This in my view is in the context that younger people are becoming more aware and they are standing firm in terms of their beliefs and not simply taking what a government may throw at them. Rallies for action on climate change are one example.

The teenager in question in this ABC story and other media, is a person advocating for Palestine and their basic rights and freedoms. Whilst I have no problem with that, the Israeli Government would no doubt have a different position. So in essence she is joining an Israeli Government's enemy.

<<Care to tell us how many conscripts went over to the enemy in WWII?>>

We are now living in a very different age and I can tell you if young people were put to mandated military training in Australia for example by the current Government under Scott Morrison, most people would oppose such a move and support his main enemies also, the Labor party, the Greens and independents.
Posted by NathanJ, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 4:06:44 PM
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Nathan,
We are not at war, if there was a war threatening Australia the mass of the people would be all for conscription.
Israel is at war.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 4:49:55 PM
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Is Mise,

<<We are not at war>>

Whoever "we" is, is questionable, please see my final point below.

In terms of war, well we should be in such a position, in a non-violent way of course, in terms of Australia, against things like:

1. Chinese influence in Australia. Look at the current saga involving Tennis Australia for example.

2. Waste. Australia is one of the highest producers of waste going to landfill on the planet.

3. Poverty and displacement. Ending poverty and poor quality of life is something that must be addressed or the divide between rich and poor in Australia will continue to increase.

There is a lot more I could put here, and this is where Australia needs to direct its actions, including internationally. As for the Israeli Government, it can address any issues via peaceful means, it is simply not used to such moves, forcing young people into the military, which has become some sort of de-facto family tradition.

Finally, there are things some Australians are at war against now. Let's say the Governments refugee policy. Suprisingly the Federal Government isn't getting people on board there in terms of a war against that policy as it doesn't fit in with their agenda.
Posted by NathanJ, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 6:40:36 PM
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Nathan,
It seems that our definitions of war are somewhat different.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 25 January 2022 6:52:11 PM
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Issy,

The millions of slaves in America who never attempted to escape, they were happy to be slaves? By your logic the answer is yes.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 9:21:34 AM
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Paul
Huh?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 10:22:56 AM
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Hi Issy,

What was the point of asking about conscripts going over to the enemy. I took it as they didn't, so they must have been happy to be conscripts. I asked about slaves, the vast majority never attempted tot escape, does that mean they were happy to be slaves?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 4:57:31 PM
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Paul
Why on earth would you think that conscripts were happy ?
They may well have been very unhappy but what’s that got to do with fighting for their country and not being traitors?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 5:22:53 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

«They may well have been very unhappy but what’s that got to do with fighting for their country and not being traitors?»

It's called "emotions" or "feelings", have you heard about such things? Only robots do not have them.

How do most raped women feel?
You must have met some of them in your police career:
Would they be likely to miss a chance if they found an opportunity, in revenge for their pain and humiliation, to join their rapist's enemies?

I was conscripted myself and I can tell you how it feels - EXACTLY LIKE RAPE.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 8:45:58 PM
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I totally despise anyone who will not fight for their country. Anyone who wants to sit at home protected by others is not worth spitting on. If you are going to accept the advantages of a country you should also be prepared to defend that country & your fellow citizens if the need arises. Anyone not prepared to do so is simply useless garbage.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 9:13:03 PM
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Yuyutsu,
I was never in the police force.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 26 January 2022 10:08:15 PM
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Hassy,

Does fighting for Australia include your call for a preemptive nuclear strike agenst Pakistan that you once made on this Forum, which would kill millions of innocent men, women and children.

Whose the garbage?
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 27 January 2022 6:32:18 AM
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Yuyutsu,
You obviously have no concept of rape and its aftermaths.
To compare rape to conscription is denigrating to women in general and making light of the trauma experienced by victims of rape, female and male.
Come down out of your “Sovereign Citizen” tower and spend some time in the real world, try counselling male victims of rape who are suicidal.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 28 January 2022 4:55:58 PM
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Is Mise,

You clearly have no understanding of how people feel who are forced into mandatory military training and any mandated action coming from that.

If the circumstance is different, then please describe.

Regardless of your circumstances, is quite clear based on what Yuyutsu has put, you can only really speak for yourself, on impacts re military involvement or otherwise.

Clearly the impacts on others are serious to the extent that they will compare these to other insidious activities and are willing to do so. It is clear that any type of military activity, has impacts on others - it's just you personally are not wanting to admit to it.

<<Come down out of your “Sovereign Citizen” tower>>.

I don't get where your coming from there, so you might like the explain. I could argue the tower your speaking from at the moment, doesn't see your message resonate with many of the wider populace.
Posted by NathanJ, Friday, 28 January 2022 5:32:40 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

No, I have no concept, I don't need any because I have the actual experience.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 28 January 2022 6:31:03 PM
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Yuyutsu,
You were raped?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 28 January 2022 8:07:49 PM
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Nathan,
I experienced conscription for military service, later I joined the Regular Army and saw active service.
I have also fought for a country other than Australia but only because I was asked to, and the men that I commanded, although not conscripted had no choice in the matter but they were not only happy but eager.
If you equate rape to conscription then you also denigrate women who have been raped; but I suspect that you have no idea of what they go through.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 28 January 2022 8:17:43 PM
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Issy, so you were cannon fodder in Korea, and you once said all you did was throw chocolates to little children (tied to a live hand granade). And what about your friend Private Pansy, did you not say you spent many a night snuggled up in the foxhole with PP.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 29 January 2022 6:15:12 AM
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Paul,
So you are happy with rape victims being compared to conscripts?
I rather thought that you would see the difference.

Quite frankly to think that the violation of a person by rape to be the same as conscription shews a mind incapable of rational thought,
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 29 January 2022 9:32:05 AM
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Is Mise,

You just don't get it do you?

Yuyutsu was CLEARLY AFFECTED by conscription and is trying to describe the impacts in the best way he sees fit. Personally, I don't think you can truly express in words the impacts of such forceful activity imposed on you by another authority. So I'll take whatever Yuyutsu puts on those grounds - after all Yuyutsu was there at the time and I wasn't.

Just because you personally feel no emotion in regards to your role in the military, (in terms of something negative) it doesn't means others do not or cannot. Each person is going to be different.

Some will also deny, hide or brush away any emotions under the guise of "toughen up". One day though these people will fold and their emotions will be released.
Posted by NathanJ, Saturday, 29 January 2022 12:43:01 PM
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Nathan,
I experienced conscription and in a very positive way, it was a good and enlightening experience.
If it is to be compared with another experience then the closest is to be arrested probably.
But to compare it to rape as does Yuyutsu, and by association,you, is as I said demeaning to rape victims and trivialising a truly traumatic experience.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 29 January 2022 2:36:31 PM
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Is Mise,

<<I experienced conscription and in a very positive way, it was a good and enlightening experience.>>

Let's say like a birthday or at Christmas for example?

Sounds reasonable if you were to make that comparison to give me some sort of idea of what your experience was like.

Others though may find such a comparison offensive, because they lost children in terms of the military. They may take a different view.

Regardless, one's view is their view. So if you feel one way and Yuyutsu has another view here, I have no reason to question either in terms of impacts on a person and the military, it's just important to realise that your view, isn't one that fits with everyone else.
Posted by NathanJ, Saturday, 29 January 2022 7:06:05 PM
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BUT Issy, did you not actually say on the Forum.

"I experienced constipation and in a very positive way, it was a good and enlightening experience." ....not the same thing.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 29 January 2022 8:12:36 PM
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Excuse me for bowing out: I don't really want to be drawn into revisiting my painful experiences - that invites nightmares of being forcibly returned to these situations, so I am not looking forward to going to bed tonight. These don't occur as often since I escaped to Australia but they still happen from time to time.

In my immigration interview I asked the Australian consul and he assured me that conscription is illegal in Australia. I would not have come here otherwise, nor remain here if that was a possibility, even while no country would ever call me again to the army or even accept me there at my current age.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 30 January 2022 12:41:46 AM
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Yuyutsu,
Sorry to disappoint you but conscription is legal in Australia and can be reinstituted at anytime by Parliament.
But that aside, likening conscription to rape is trivialising the traumatic experience of rape victims.
I’m all in favour of military conscription for the direct defence of Australia.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 7:53:52 AM
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Hi Issy,

I only put a bit of humor in to lighten the conversation. Please respect our friends feelings on this.
You know my views on militarism, and the senseless folly of war. I'm realistic enough, given the world as it is, to realize Australia needs to have a defence capability, and I stress the word defence. I'm not in favour of conscription, in Australia it has always been applied unfairly and for the wrong reasons. As for the legality, the government during WWI tried twice to introduce conscription through referendum and failed. I understand during WWII, strings were pulled to keep the sons of money out of the action, simmilar with Vietnam. Incidentally in WWI, Korea and Vietnam, Australia was under no direct threat. Given militarism and modern warfare, conscription for a large army, other than for political reasons is a thing of the past. Some countries use conscription to mop up and hide unemployment.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 30 January 2022 8:30:15 AM
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If I am ever forced to shoot anyone then I would turn my gun back at Is Mise and his ilk!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 30 January 2022 8:54:42 AM
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Yuyusu,
If your feelings are so affected by the thought of conscription why did you enter the discussion?
As I’ve mentioned before I do a bit of counselling as does my wife, in her capacity as a nurse; we have both done counselling of rape victims, in our respective sexes, and there is absolutely no comparison with conscription.

Anyone who thinks so is out of touch with reality.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 10:00:04 AM
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No comparison indeed.

When one is raped, it is of course very humiliating and painful, but it typically lasts just hours, if that.
But when one is conscripted, they are being violated for months and years, physically, mentally, emotionally, being degraded, chased and bullied helplessly in fear with no end in sight, the law being on the side of the abusers.

No, no comparison.

Those who feel not another's pain and horror, who believe that other people's body and soul belongs to them, are all one and the same, regardless whether their particular pleasure happens to be sexual or just enjoying power over others for its own sake.

Is Mise, the Marquis de Sade will be proud of you!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 30 January 2022 12:56:31 PM
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Yuyututsu,
Wake up!!
Rape victims are not over it in a few hours, the horror often lasts for life’\ and sometimes a short one as they kill themselves.
Disease from rape lasts for years and sometimes has horrific consequences such as rendering the victim infertile and every time she sees a baby she can be reminded of the horror that she went through.
Would you equate your experiences with that of raped children?
Children so young and small that they had to undergo reconstructive surgery.
You have nightmares?
Think of the nightmares of small girls who were raped (in fact tortured) and who are frightened to be around men.

So you got yelled at and made to do things that you didn’t want to do; welcome to the real world.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 1:52:45 PM
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Is Mise,

You still don't seem to understand.

As I stated before Yuyutsu is expressing his feelings in regards to the long term implications of mandated military service.

The fact that you do not feel the same about his comparisons is of concern, but I cannot change that. The fact is Yuyutsu has feelings just like you, myself and most other people.

As you state you and your partner have been involved with assisting those (via couselling) who have been victims of sexual assualt. So why not try and show some understanding and compassion here in terms of where Yuyutsu is coming from?

That is simply to accept the words put and move forward. I mean would you question a person affected by sexual assualt to this level? I would hope not.

It is up to you to see if you will show such compassion. If you allow your own support and experience with the military to cloud your judgement, I would strongly advise against any person in the military seeking any assistance from yourself.

Understand where others are coming from and take the another approach, that being to listen and realise one thing:

"History is not there for you to like or dislike. It is there for you to learn from. If it offends you even better, as you are less likely to repeat it. It is not yours to erase, it belongs to all people."

This of course includes taking responsibility for such histories and for myself it means respecting people who have been forced into the military through no choice of their own and understanding their pains, alongside the pains and lives lost in terms of innocent civilians.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 30 January 2022 5:09:11 PM
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Nathan,
So you go along with the statement that rape is an inconvenience of an hour or so’s duration,
I couldn’t care less about Yuyutsu’s aversion to conscription, that’s not the point, it is his, and your, trivialising of rape that is the aberration; did you amuse yourself as a child by pulling the wings off flies?

Perhaps I should have mentioned the trauma of those women who became pregnant and went to full term in the past and those today who have their pregnancy terminated, often their first child which should have been a great and fulfilling experience; an experience of which they were robbed.
Then there were those who died in childbirth or from complications.

Frankly you and Yuyutsu are sick.
Now do you get it?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 5:52:13 PM
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Is Mise,

You are using the guilt by association fallacy.

You are trying to associate something to my argument that is not relevant.

All I am saying is that people will have different responses to their experience, whatever that experience is. In this case it just happens to be the military.

The fact that you dislike Yuyutsu's emotion in terms of his reply is irrelevent and if anything rude. As I stated Yuyutsu is expressing a view that has come from military service he was forced into.

Either you accept that people are negatively affected by their time in the military or you don't. If you do that is a start.

If you do not, then simply do one thing, leave Yuyutsu alone. Finally, I don't see any value from your counselling and I will not be referring anyone onto yourself who needs any type of counselling.

I means what happens if they were refer to the military in a way you didn't like? What would you do to them? Who knows?
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 30 January 2022 6:20:25 PM
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Nathan,
Obviously people can be affected by their military service, I mainly deal with people who have been affected by military or similar service; been doing it off and on for some 60 years.
Off and on because that avoids burnout.
Never in all those years have I met anyone who compared his experiences to rape.

Yuyutsu freely entered this discussion and freely belittled the experiences of rape victims, more than once.
For that he should apologise to victims in general as should you for defending his stance.

But then, you don’t get it.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 7:22:15 PM
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Is Mise,

If I was running a counselling service, like you seem to be, I would not be questioning a person who has been forced into military service. They are going to express a view in terms of how they feel. It's emotive. It's a view from their own perspective. It is not my role to judge that person. End of story.

In the same way I will not judge the ANZAC'S for example. If an ANZAC told me their experience in the war was akin to something, I'm not going to essentially turn around and say "how dare you!" just because of statements made or words used.

A true counsellor would not do that.

In terms of what Yuyutsu has put here, you have read that for the first time. Learn from it. Provide support for Yuyutsu, guide him to a pathway of healing and not cheaply attack him in a public environment.

Finally, I would suggest vetrans use this service re counselling, a service founded by Vietnam Veterans, now for all veterans and families. http://www.openarms.gov.au/
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 30 January 2022 9:37:29 PM
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Nathan,
I’m off tomorrow on an extended pig hunt, two years ago we killed 800, this time we’re told that they’re thicker, so we hope for 1,000.

Consequently I can’t be bothered corresponding with thoughtless people who think that rape is an innocent hour of discomfort, see you in a fortnight, if I can be bothered.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 30 January 2022 10:03:23 PM
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Dear God,

Should my sins be so heavy that I deserve to come back again to this world as a human and for expiation re-experience the horrors I underwent in the army in this life, and should there be a way to mitigate this punishment by instead being born a woman and undergo rape of the sexual kind, even if this leads to pregnancy, even if I will have to carry the resulting baby for 9 months, then please allow me that latter option in your great mercy. This I pray. Amen.

---

Dear Nathan

What kind of sensitivity could one expect from someone who enjoys killing others?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 30 January 2022 11:13:07 PM
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Arguing over who has most traumatic experiences seems a little pointless.

Is Mise,
I'm glad that your experience with conscription was positive and never lead you on a path where you were damaged and broken, and scared to sleep for the nightmares.
A lot of ex-military kill themselves after serving.

Yuyutsu,
I don't know what you've been through, I haven't read the full discussion but I figure it must've been pretty bad if your scared to sleep for the nightmares.
I'm sorry you've had a negative experience with conscription
(Israel I assume?)
I truly hope that you've gotten at least a couple of nights sleep through this discussion without the vivid nightmares.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 5 February 2022 8:14:35 PM
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Dear Critic,

Thank you for your sympathy!

My nightmares of being forcibly returned to the army have become gradually less frequent over the decades, so no, I did not have any in the last week, but thank you for your concern.

While it is good to wake up and find that I am safe in Australia, it is also a matter of age: even during sleep I retain some bodily sensations, so the dichotomy between feeling my old body and what I am (in dreams) required to do in the army is just too big to hold for long. Due to my experiences I certainly do not want to be young again!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 5 February 2022 10:46:06 PM
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