When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

SR's method of 'research' (for want of a better word) is to find a fact that he likes and then pretend that its the most important fact, indeed the only fact, that matters.

A few days ago, that 'fact' was the Nazis 25-point plan. SR had found it or stumbled across it and since it was the only thing he had, he hammered it mercilessly. But, since he wanted to argue the Nazis weren't socialist when the 25-points proved otherwise, it was problematic.

So now SR has found out about some Jewish refugees and decided they are the sole cause of Nazi racism. No evidence mind you, but when did that ever stop SR?

He talks about the nation being flooded by refugees. But in fact only Berlin was affected and even then the refugees were just passing through en route to the USA. Why Berlin? Well at the time it was a very liberal and libertarian city.

What was happening in Berlin was not of any concern to the Nazis during their formative years. Indeed the Nazis didn't even have a Berlin branch to speak of until 1926 by which time this supposed flood of refugees had largely moved on.

Additionally, the Nazi attitude to the Jew was set long before this laughable flood had materialised. The 25-point plan that SR was so excited about a few days back was written before the 'flood'.

SR 20 minute 'research' won't have shown him this, but antisemitism had a long history in Germany back to the 13th century. The Nazis were formed around Bavaria and it had a particular history being the epi-centre of the Hep-Hep riots. Hitler, in 'My Struggle', said he became antisemitic before WW1. At the very least it was just after WW1 when he was exposed to the theory that the German Army was stabbed in the back for Jewish bankers. Nothing to do with a flood of refugees.

But that's all poor old SR has, so he'll keep in hammering away at it.

Dear old mhaze,

You do know that whenever you resort to talking about me rather than to me it is generally a pretty clear sign you have conceded the point.

An indeed you have. There previously fictitious refugees are now real, but just 'passing through' according to you.

Of course there was historical anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany as there was across all of Europe, hell the main reason for such numbers of Jews in Poland and Russia was their historic expulsion from Germany and other countries, particularly during the Crusades. But so many Germany Jews had made serious inroads into assimilating within German society.

As Cantor puts it:

“The excellent German state-supported school (the gymnasium) and the state universities afforded the Jews the opportunity for deep immersion in German language, literature, philosophy and science. Of course there were tensions, particularly in the universities, where Jews were excluded from most fraternities. But that was of little social consequence. A greater obstacle was the quotas against Jewish entry into the professional schools and to academic appointments.

Yet the Jews persevered and fully internalised German literate culture. Its deep learning and rigorous academic discipline – Wissenschaft – appealed to the Jews. It was an objective body of knowledge that they could thereby master and demonstrate that they belonged as physicians, lawyers, professors, civil servants, applied scientists and poets; and it was reminiscent of the dry, systematic rationality of the Talmud.”

As Cantor succinctly reflects: “By 1900 the conversion and intermarriage among German born Jews was approaching fifty percent. If Hitler had not intervened Jewish identity in German could have very well have lapsed by the middle of the twentieth century.”

However into the mix of severe economic hardships driven by a depression and severe reparation payments came hundreds of thousands of observant but poor Jewish refugees from 'beyond the pale'.

To even contend for a moment this was not a huge factor in enabling Hitler's rise to power is to deny history. It shows a dramatic gap in your knowledge on this topic and decries any notion that these were 'fictitious refugees'.

SR,

You have no evidence that these refugees had the slightest influence on the the Nazis. Just hopes or assertions or conjecture.

This supposed 'flood' occurred only in the north. And the 'flood' continued through to the USA. It had no effect on the Nazis in the south which was their base. You haven't found a single reference from Hitler to the supposed 'flood'.

By the time Nazi fortunes started to improve in the north the supposed 'flood' had long since gone. Whatismore, if you had even a passing understanding of the Nazi political fortunes in the north you'd see that they downplayed their antisemitic policy when campaiging in the north because they weren't all that popular.

From 'The Fuhrer and the People' from a NYT article in 1932....

"It is beyond doubt that, as the party is moving toward power, the sharp edges of many of its views are becoming blunt. Even though Adolf Hitler refused to submit to cross-examination the other day on the ground that the lawyer of his opponent was a Jew his speeches no longer bristle with pointed references to the anti-Semitic cause. He lately went so far in his repudiation of racial exclusiveness as to assert in a public statement that "against honest Jews we have nothing to say."

Hitler moderated his attacks on Jews in order to get German votes in 1932. There's plenty of information about those 1932/3 political campaigns. How does that gel with your supposition (for that's all it is) that the Germans were enraged for this fictitious flood?

Looks like you'll have to go back to PleaseTellMeWhatIWantToHear.com to get some other bit of 'evidence' to prove the Nazis were socialists.

Dear mhaze,

You prattled on with: “You have no evidence that these refugees had the slightest influence on the the Nazis. Just hopes or assertions or conjecture.”

You really are a berk.

Where, in anything I have written, did I assert these refugees had any direct influence on the NAZIs, I didn't.

Hitler's deep antisemitism was derived from his Austrian experiences where Jewish entrenchment particularly in Vienna saw over 50% of the lawyers were Jewish.

I have repeatedly said the refugee influx laid fertile soil for the rise of the NAZI party in places where they would not have otherwise enjoyed that popularity.

And this rot from you:

“A few days ago, that 'fact' was the Nazis 25-point plan. SR had found it or stumbled across it and since it was the only thing he had, he hammered it mercilessly. But, since he wanted to argue the Nazis weren't socialist when the 25-points proved otherwise, it was problematic.”

Utterly moronic. You first raised the 25 points in this thread mate.

All I have done is react to something you introduced into the conversation. Do you ever review anything you write?

You specifically claimed: “The antisemitism in Germany in the 1920s wasn't due to refugees”.

I answered with the quote: “At the height of the Jewish diaspora, 600,000 Russian refugees lived in Germany in 1922/23, more than half of them in the capital Berlin.”

Now you are saying “this supposed flood of refugees had largely moved on”. No, there were still 150,000 concentrated mainly in Berlin proper. This 10% of the population was on top of the existing Jewish population and were highly visible due to their orthodox Jewish behaviour.

For you to say this had no impact on the existing levels of antisemitism it just inane. This is what heightened NAZI popularity in the north. Look at what 2% Muslim population levels has stirred up in Australia with the One Nation leader wearing a burkha into our parliament for God's sake.

Dear Steele,

Talking about a hammer and a nail...

I wonder if the skeleton in mhaze's closet
carries a hammer and a sickle?

Interesting robust discussion. I find it's often more important to understand 'why' someone says what they do rather than 'what' they say. Remember the 5W's. I probably have some questions for mhaze (and perhaps Steele Redux) but I'll need to read the posts again and make a list.

The following is interesting..

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13992-statistics
http://sites.google.com/a/makingly.club/atencade/geopolitik-karl-haushofer-und-seine-raumwissenschaft-1919-1945

There is also a certain amount of evidence as to the Jewish increase in proportion to that of adherents of other creeds. The following table is taken from Haushofer, "Lehrbuch," p. 510, and from Oettingen, "Moralstatistik."
Country. Years. Catholic. Protestant. Jews.
Austria 1851-57 8.20 5.40 19.60
" ...... 0.76 0.76 3.35
" Western 1861-70 2.86 2.86 3.08
Baden 1846-64 1.50 5.00 3.60
" 1857-63 0.85 1.06 1.04
Bavaria 1852-64 4.50 4.50 4.20
France 1861-66 0.36 1.10 2.27
Hanover 1852-64 3.30 5.00 8.60
Netherlands 1849-59 1.20 1.60 0.30
Prussia 1831-49 0.85 0.94 1.26
" 1852-64 11.40 11.10 12.90
Saxony 1854-64 27.10 15.30 68.10
Switzerland 1850-60 5.30 4.20 34.00
Württemberg 1846-64 0.20 0.40 3.40

But the figures of increase are often very deceptive, as they may indicate, not the natural increase by surplus of births over deaths, but accession by immigration. This applies especially to Germany during the early part of the nineteenth century, when Jews from Galicia and Poland seized every opportunity of moving westward. On the other hand, Ruppin has shown that within recent years, when forcible measures have been taken to prevent Russian Jews from settling in Germany, the growth of the Jewish population there has almost entirely ceased, owing to the falling off in the number of births, and, possibly, to emigration. The increase of the Jews of England and the United States during the last quarter of a century has, however, been exceptional, owing to extensive immigration.