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The Forum > General Discussion > French Submarines Best for Australia

French Submarines Best for Australia

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The are constant jibes against the regionally superior submarines France is building for Australia.

The tax paying public, clickbait journos and Canberra thinktank "Experts" know too little, too early.

The future is a big gig - more dynamic than meets one eye.
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 21 July 2021 11:55:28 PM
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What is the point of this post?
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 July 2021 9:17:29 AM
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Do you not know ttbn

That the only way for Australia to move up to nuclear subs (SSNs) in the quickest possible time (the 2040s) is to make down payments to the French via the conventional sub scheme.

This is what Australia is doing.

No one else will offer Australia SSNs.

"Why master?" you may well ask?
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 22 July 2021 12:04:03 PM
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Well Pete. Nothing in your 3 line post said that. But, who told you that there was any likelihood of a shift to nuclear subs and, if there was, why wouldn't they buy them now instead of farting around having nuclear subs converted to diesel, and waiting for them until 2050 or some such ridiculous time?
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 July 2021 1:16:42 PM
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TTBN at last someone has come out for a good reason to buy French!
The reason is that we will be so frightened of China that we will either have to surrender and leave our houses to the the Chinese population or go nuclear.
My bet is the current leadership would sell their own children on the streets of St Kilda to save their own skins so surrender it is.
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 22 July 2021 1:52:14 PM
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Well said JBowyer

And as for you ttbn.

The expert, Gregor Ferguson, writing at ASPI Strategist, 22 July 2021 points out how hard it would be for Aus to currently buy nuclear subs. See http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/buying-military-hardware-from-the-us-wish-list-or-shopping-list/
___________________________

A superior conventional sub bought from France's Naval Group is the only way for Australia to go, CURRENTLY.

Australian interests are tied up Very significantly with the fact that only France builds a mix of Western Conventional AND Nuclear subs.

If Australia wants to buy a nuclear sub the US and UK won't sell us one - the US's and UK's bomb grade HEU reactor situations I'll explain later.

Regards

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 22 July 2021 2:39:54 PM
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Gregor Ferguson sounds like a pessimist to me, and while he might know more than I do, his description at the bottom of the article he wrote doesn't indicate that he is anyone a government would necessarily listen to.

But he has the right end of the stick in regard to the stupid ban on a nuclear capability our idiotic politicians have deliberately brought about; which, of course still doesn't excuse the French fiasco, which is an albatross around our necks, brought about by a Prime Minister who is history to prop up the seat of an SA politician who is also history. Defence has been just a job creation scheme to the morons in Canberra, and I don't think that any of them can be relied on to defend Australia, with submarines or anything else.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 July 2021 5:01:59 PM
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We would actually be better off without these basically useless things if the stuff hits the fan.

As with the Wirrways in Rabaul when taken by the Japs, having a flight of 6 of them achieved nothing but killing some good trained men, who would have been better used training new pilots in Oz until we had something at least useful to put into the air.

These subs will only take a crew to their end totally uselessly.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 22 July 2021 8:52:53 PM
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Are they not finding it difficult to raise crews for submarines, no matter who builds them or what sort they are - or how hugely expensive?
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 22 July 2021 11:17:03 PM
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NAVAL SHIPBUILDING MONEY FOR VOTES A REALITY OF LIFE

Hi ttbn

Whered you so gratuitously claim "Defence has been just a job creation scheme to the morons in Canberra" YOU ARE SPOT ON.

Federal money allocated to certain States and the Federal electorates in them is political reality across all Federal Budget items.

South Australia has been dependent on Federal money (cars and submarines) for decades because South Australia is too arid to earn a decent farming return and Adelaide's population is so isolated from profitable cities. Also net immigration into South Australia is low or even negative "growth".

So Federal money was injected into South Australia's car industry (Holden and others) which kept South Australia going from the 1940s.

However without the car industry being articially in Adelaide, Adelaide needed another plausible industry to attract Federal money. That came by way of South Australia's build and maintain submarine industry and the large build destroyers/frigates industry.

More than coincidentally Federal money boosts South Australian jobs which in turn boosts VOTES in key marginal Federal electorates

For example massive Fed money promised for Adelaids's submarine building actually won the Coalition the 2016 Fed Election.

Now continuing shipbuilding cash for Adelaide will win Morrison the Fed Election likely in September/October this year or up to 21 May 2022 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Australian_federal_election#Election_date

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 23 July 2021 4:11:29 PM
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If it's "spot on" it can't be gratuitous. You don't know much about farming in SA, or Adelaide. But that's beside the point. Money should be spent on arming and training the civilian population, leaving the military to it's cross-dressing, gender politics and whatever the prevailing social fad is.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 23 July 2021 5:50:19 PM
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THE GREATER THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THE GREATER THE POLITICAL SHADOW PLAY

So France (Naval Group) are not building Australia's submarines late and over-budget.

It was the Coalition Government (now led by Morrison) who, in 2016, engineered the situation in which too much Federal money was earmarked over too long a period

TO BUY VOTES FOR THE MORRISON GOVERNMENT IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA IN THE UPCOMING (BY JULY 2022) FEDERAL ELECTION.
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 23 July 2021 8:26:42 PM
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Forget building submarines in Australia. It has now been suggested we can't even build houses properly. A senior lecturer at RMIT University’s School of Property, Construction and Project Management says the standard is low. The majority of new houses in Australia only meet the minimum building code requirements, which are not sufficient to deliver year round thermal comfort. The houses are “glorified tents” compared with homes in Sweden, pointing out that temperatures inside a “flimsy” Queenslander dip below 18 degrees Celsius while Swedish houses remain at a comfortable 23 degrees, no matter the season.

The problem has arisen with people working from home, finding that their houses are not as warm as their offices at this time of the year.

Climate change gets the usual mention, even though that's supposed to be heating us up, but maybe it's not. Who knows with the constant BS we are fed.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 24 July 2021 10:43:25 AM
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Hi Pete,

The existing (more than 2 decades old) trouble-plagued
Collins subs Australia discussed replacing nearly a
decade ago. And the Collins subs were due to be retired
in the next few years.

In 2016 Australia selected the Naval Group to build a new
submarine fleet to replace its Collins subs and significantly
expand its military strategic and trade interests in the
Asia-Pacific. It was considered one of the most lucrative
defence deals.

However now it seems that Canberra requires
that the majority of the manufacturing and
components be sourced locally causing
delays and problems. With the result being that our Defence
Minister Peter Dutton has said he will order a refit of the
existing Collins class subs. The first of Australia's
six Collins class subs will reach their end of life span
in 2026.

So what's going on in Canberra? Wouldn't it be a better move
and much cheaper in the long-term to simply stick with the
French sub order - then play around with these old Collins
class subs?

I say stick with new sub fleet to replace the more than 2 decades
old Collins subs and expand our military strategic interests.
and trade in the Asia Pacific.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 July 2021 5:07:43 PM
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Hi Foxy

What is termed the Life of Type Extension (LOTE) modernisation plan for the Collins has been the Government's plan all along since 2017. Dutton might be implying LOTE is his idea but its 4 years old.

LOTEs are standard in Navy ships and submarines after around 17 years of service. LOTEs are much more economically and politically justifiable and sensible than building new "Interim" subs

or the Nuclear Subs (that coat Australia $10 Billion each and couldn't be built here).

With LOTEs being done in the mid-late 2020s at least 3 Collins will last till 2042 at the same time as 4 Attack class subs enter service.
So Australia will always have the 6 subs minimum we need rising to 12 subs around 2050.

The main weakness of the Collins has always been the gone-out-of-business-Swedish-Company Hedemora Diesel Engines. The Hedemora diesels are faulty, dangerous, can only be run to 80% maximum power and need to be removed in Adelaide from each Collins to be serviced. Hedemora Diesel servicing costs an average of $100 million per Collins per year = all up $600 million per year just servicing the diesels of the Collins class.

So replacing the Collins Hedemora diesels with the world's best and most common diesels (designed in Germany by a company called MTU) should be the main and very much necessary LOTE improvement for the Collins.

The Collins LOTEs have always been planned in conjunction with the introduction of the Attack class subs.

Regards

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 24 July 2021 8:35:05 PM
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Good Morning Pete,

Thank You for explaining things to me.

It now all makes sense as to what Australia
is trying to do.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 July 2021 9:18:28 AM
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Pete,

You've told us all about it. Is defence Minister Dutton au fait with your brilliant assessment of the subject.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 25 July 2021 9:54:53 AM
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Morning Foxy

Thanks.

And if China increases as a threat at the rate it has in the last 3 years all these Collins-LOTE and Attack-class timings should speed up.

Cheers

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 25 July 2021 12:33:19 PM
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Yes ttbn

Dutton and Co. studied this well http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/05/australian-interim-subs-naval-group.html .

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 25 July 2021 12:41:49 PM
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Dear Pete,

Thank You for this discussion.

As always - I've learned a lot.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 July 2021 1:23:28 PM
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There's an article in The Strategist by Michael Shoebridge concerning unmanned weapons that might put submarines in a totally different light for some people. Online, no paywall.

I don't know how many people are actually interested in the defence of their country, though. China and our defence seems to be an area that's a bit too scary for people to give much thought to. If they stay quiet and try not to think about it, everything will be OK. Yeah!
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 25 July 2021 2:09:19 PM
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Hi ttbn

Can you do OLO the honour of actually listing the The Strategist-Michael Shoebridge LINK?

We've has this conversation before. Why are you always reluctant to actually publish LINKs?

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 25 July 2021 2:16:58 PM
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I don't know what 'honour' has to do with it. I don't know how to do it. I've asked for help, but as usual, smart arses with all the answers are not so forthcoming when asked a direct question. When I used to spell out where to find references, I was lambasted for using 'right wing' propaganda. Therefore, I don't do that any more either. I've given the name of the magazine. Google it is my best advise.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 25 July 2021 6:00:24 PM
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To help poor ttbn out

I think he is referring to - but cannot spell:

Michael Shoebridge's, writing for the ASPI Strategist, 9 March 2021 article "Australia should do more than just wait for the Attack-class submarines to arrive" at http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/australia-should-do-more-than-just-wait-for-the-attack-class-submarines-to-arrive/

My comments on that article in a few hours.

Cheers

Pete
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-15-year-ssnxseawolf-2-debate-awaits.html
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 26 July 2021 12:32:11 PM
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Thanks for the link Pete,

And Thanks to ttbn for recommending the article by
Shoebridge. Who says we don't learn from OLO.

Interesting subject.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 26 July 2021 1:15:36 PM
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You just can't stop losing, can you Pete. The article was written on the 23rd July, so you are lagging behind still. It wasn't about submarines, per se, that you have wet dreams about, but military technology in general with the mention of remote controlled under water vessels as opposed to manned submarines. Shoebridge is a professional, often interviewed on TV, whereas you are an overgrown boy better suited to playing with model train sets. You are the last person to be attempting to take the piss. I'll leave you to play with the girls.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 26 July 2021 2:36:52 PM
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8 years ago the RAN, through DMO, couldn't find enough maintainers to rebuild Mk48's...let alone man patrols for the Collins boats out of Stirling. I am of the understanding the situation is only slightly better today. Sadly we've well & truly let the ball go with successive governments since the Grand Larceny aka: The "War On Terror" came to town. Billions if not Trillions of dollars spent, to now go giving the whole lot back to the Taliban. Still, it was a great training exercise for the RAAF & Army, but really we are an island, so the greater urgency now is to protect our sea lanes and supply routes. Precisely why the CCP is seeking to deny those by dealing with Pacific Islands nations. French submarines best for Australia...au contraire ! Post haste a programme of building smaller submarines locally, with several fleet bases constructed in Joseph Bonaparte Gulf, Darwin and possibly another in Brisbane on the eastern seaboard, all supplemented with small high speed catamarans armed with appropriate surface to air/surface to surface missile systems. Oh and don't forget, our oil reserves, going on articles like: "Australia loses another oil refinery, leaving our fuel supply vulnerable to regional crises" See:
Australia's fuel supplies vulnerable if Middle East conflict cuts ...https://www.abc.net.au › news › australia-remains-vulne...
we're pretty well stuffed anyway.
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Monday, 26 July 2021 3:40:14 PM
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No worries Foxy

I'm glad to bring http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/australia-should-do-more-than-just-wait-for-the-attack-class-submarines-to-arrive/

to your attention.

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 26 July 2021 3:53:56 PM
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AUSTRALIA HAS ONLY FOUR QUALIFIED SUBMARINE COMMANDERS - ONLY ONE AUSTRALIAN BORN

Hi Albie Manton in Darwin

Re your "Post haste a programme of building smaller submarines locally"

A limiting factor is that any manned Australian sub, whether it be large, medium or small must be commanded by a fully qualified commander. These commanders come from the mainly Non-Australian born pool of fully qualified submarine commanders for the RAN.

The problem being Australia has only 4 sub commanders available for sea duty. See http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/submarines/ssg specifically the lowest Table - names below "Commanding Officer"

Australia's 4 Submarine Commanding Officers available for sea duty are:

- Commander Michael Power http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-michael-power The ONLY AUSTRALIAN born submarine Commander at sea in AUSTRALIA"s Navy.

- Commander Robin Dainty http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-robin-dainty BRITISH born. After spending most of his career in the UK RN submarine service Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the now Netherlands "Perisher" Course meant Dainty was encouraged to immigrate to Australia in order to transfer to the RAN.

- Commander Timothy Markusson http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-timothy-markusson CANADIAN born. After spending most of his career in the CANADIAN submarine service Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the "Perisher" Course meant Markusson was encouraged to immigrate to Australia in order to transfer to the RAN.

- Commander Christopher Ellis https://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-christopher-ellis UK BORN, joined CANADIAN Navy. After spending half of his career in the Canadian Navy and RAN he finally transfeered to the RAN 2 years ago.

Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the now Netherlands "Perisher" Course means most of Australia's submarine commander only transfer to Australian subs when they are already foreign born and foreign trained.
____________________________________

Port of Darwin suffers from being to shallow and tidal for sub basing. Also Chinese ownership of Port of Darwin makes any operation of Australian submarines a SECURITY RISK.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 26 July 2021 4:50:44 PM
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CORRECTION FOR TYPOS

AUSTRALIA HAS ONLY 4 QUALIFIED SUBMARINE COMMANDERS - ONLY 1 AUSTRALIAN BORN

Hi Albie

Re your "Post haste a programme of building smaller submarines locally"

A limiting factor is that any manned Australian sub, whether it be large, medium or small, must be commanded by a fully qualified commander. These commanders come from the mainly Non-Australian born pool of fully qualified submarine commanders for the RAN.

The problem being Australia has only 4 sub commanders available for sea duty. See http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/submarines/ssg specifically the lowest Table - names below "Commanding Officer"

Australia's 4 Submarine Commanding Officers available for sea duty are:

- Commander Michael Power http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-michael-power The ONLY AUSTRALIAN born submarine Commander at sea in AUSTRALIA"s Navy.

- Commander Robin Dainty http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-robin-dainty BRITISH born. After spending most of his career in the UK RN submarine service Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the now Netherlands "Perisher" Course meant Dainty was encouraged to immigrate to Australia in order to transfer to the RAN.

- Commander Timothy Markusson http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-timothy-markusson CANADIAN born. After spending most of his career in the CANADIAN submarine service Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the "Perisher" Course meant Markusson was encouraged to immigrate to Australia in order to transfer to the RAN.

- Commander Christopher Ellis http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/commander-christopher-ellis UK BORN, joined CANADIAN Navy. After spending half of his career in the Canadian Navy and RAN he finally transferred to the RAN 2 years ago.

Australia's SHORTAGE of homegrown submarine commanders able to pass the now Netherlands "Perisher" Course means most of Australia's submarine commanders are foreign born and foreign trained.
____________________________________

PORT OF DARWIN AND SUBS

Re: Darwin as a submarine base. Darwin Port suffers from being too shallow and tidal for safe, secure and effective submarine basing.

Also CHINESE ownership of Darwin's Port makes any operation of Australian submarines from there a SECURITY RISK, for Australia.

However China's South China Sea honewd skill at dredging island naval basese holds potential for CHINESE naval operations in Darwin.

CHINESE submarine operations from Darwin may be under review, in Naval HQ, Beijing.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 26 July 2021 5:12:05 PM
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