It's probably appropriate that we consider the reason for the current holiday period.

Nineteen hundred and ninety years ago (give or take) and around this time of the year, the Roman occupying force in Israel decided to execute a troublesome though largely unknown Jew. They scourged him with their usual brutality and then took him to a hill nearby, nailed him through the wrists to a crossbeam and through the ankles to a support beam and set the lot up for display, along with a couple of other 'criminals', 'pour encourager les autres'.

This Jew didn't last long and apparently died on his cross (it was likely more like a 'T') pretty quickly. Thereafter he was removed and given to his entourage for disposal. They wrapped the body as was the custom and placed in a tomb (cave) with a large rock placed at the entrance.

That all of the above happened is reasonably certain. Thereafter the story becomes controversial.

Returning to the scene a day or two later they discover that the rock has moved and the body gone. According to some accounts, they see a a man, or two men or two angels, who advise that the Jew is risen but will meet his followers later in Galilee.

And with that, one of the most consequential events in human history happened. Believing or not, it's undeniable that the world and world history changed dramatically as a result of those events 1990 years ago.

That's what the current celebrations are about.

Good Morning mhaze,

To my grand kids Easter is about delicious chocolate
Easter eggs, cute Easter bunnies, traditional food,
Easter egg hunts and a time when we exchange chocolate
and enjoy a holiday. To other people I suspect its a
time when they enjoy a break and spend time with their
family and friends - camping, going away and so on.

To Christians its celebrating the Resurrection of Christ.

So I guess it all depends on your personal and cultural
beliefs. When I asked a Greek friend of mine when
Easter was more important to him than Christmas he
said - Anybody can be born, but only God can rise from
the dead.

We live in a post-Cbristian era, where Bunnings think Easter is strictly for DIY "projects" and buying stuff from them. People kill themselves and others on the roads, travelling ridiculous distances in the time available. Hot Cross buns are available months before Easter. Whack jobs tell us we should stop saying Easter Eggs and call them 'seasonal chocolates'. Most people don't give a toss about the meaning of Easter.

"That all of the above happened is reasonably certain"

The fact of Christs crucifixion is reasonably certain. What is not certain is the Christen account of how it was carried out, their account is at odds with a traditional Roman crucifixion. The idea all was done in a day, and Christ was dead and removed from the cross all in the same day, would be very unusual for the time. The Romans were very big on example.

"In Roman-style crucifixion, the condemned took days to die slowly from suffocation—caused by the condemned’s blood-supply slowly draining away to a quantity insufficient to supply the required oxygen to vital organs. The dead body was left up for vultures and other birds to consume."

"The goal of Roman crucifixion was not just to kill the criminal, but also to mutilate and dishonor the body of the condemned. In ancient tradition, an honorable death required burial; leaving a body on the cross, so as to mutilate it and prevent its burial, was a grave dishonor."

What happened to Christ after his crucifixion. and much of the before and during, is most likely pure theatre concocted by St Paul and his followers some time later to establish the religion of Christianity. The St James (brother of Jesus) Jerusalem Christians do not speak of a resurrection at all. After Christs death the Jerusalem Christians remained a sect within orthodox Judaism, believing strongly in the exclusion of gentiles from the faith. St James was a leading member, and regular speaker within the established Jewish Sanhedrin until his assassination, which was orchestrated by other factional leaders within the Sanhedrin in about 62AD.

cont

cont

St Paul who never knew Christ, but claimed he was the greatest apostle of all, even greater than the original 12, who only knew the earthly Jesus, but he spoke directly to the heavenly Jesus through dreams and apparitions. St James did not hold with St Paul's notion of Christianity, and there was open hostility between the two when they did meet. Paul offered James money to smooth things over, but things got out of hand, and the last straw for James was when Paul declared himself a Roman citizen, and came under the protection of Rome. Unfortunately for the Jerusalem Christians after the death of James they melted back into Judaism, whilst Paul went on to found a universal religion in Christianity. Like all Pauls, St Paul was a good bloke and Christians today should be thankful for his perseverance in establishing their religion for them, myths and all.

The big break for Christianity came in the fourth century when Emperor Constantine converted, some say he didn't actually convert until he was on his death bed, there is a story behind his conversion, winning some battle after praying to the Christian God on the insistence of his wife who was dabbling in Christianity at the time, but no matter Christians should be thankful Constantine won the battle. Constantine freed Christians from persecution and declared tolerance of the religion in 313AD, but that had been very much the case for the past couple of hundred years anyway Constantine did set up the First Nicene Council in 325AD, which formalised Christian belief through the Nicene Creed based of the doctrine of St Paul, which worked well with the Romans, I sure nothing was included in the Creed that Constantine would have disagreed with, and it made Christianity inclusive within the Roman Empire.

BTW; Constantine crucified lots of people.

Ah, the memories come flooding back.

I remember looking forward to the Royal Easter Show
in Sydney where I grew up. Seeing all the animals and events
was very special.

Easter meant pancakes on Shrove Tuesday.
It meant traditional foods, not only Easter eggs.
It was a very lovely time of the year. Going to
Confession and then Sunday Mass. Watching religious
movies was part and parcel of this season. Films
like - The Greatest Story Ever Told, Jesus of Nazareth,
Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, Quo Vadis, The Robe,
And even The Passion of the Christ. All were memorable
and left an impression.

Events and festivals this year may not happen. One of
my brothers who lives in Byron Bay - tells me they're
in lockdown because of Covid. He feels very strongly
about those negligent nurses who brought Covid into
Byron from Brisbane and infected the entire area and
nearby towns. They came and partied without being
tested. Not a thought for the well being of anyone
else. We can only hope that things will get better.
At the moment things in Byron are looking grim -
especially for the tourist trade.

Paul,

What you've said is now outdated thinking. It is generally accepted these days among scholars on these issues that Jesus died and it all happened within a day or so. Bear in mind that Jesus's execution wasn't the usual Roman crucifixion. He had been previously been beaten by his Jewish accusers prior to being given to the Romans so he was already weakened.

Remember also that the Romans killed him reluctantly. Pilate tried hard to avoid it and only agreed to it to keep the peace with the Jewish leadership. As such your assertions about wanting to prolong the agony don't apply. Indeed its likely they wanted to get it over with quickly to avoid problems with Jesus's followers. Hence the spear to the side and letting the followers have the body.

" is most likely pure theatre concocted by St Paul and his followers some time later to establish the religion of Christianity. "

Well, you see, there's no evidence of that. Indeed very much the opposite. There is plenty of contemporary evidence that what they said was correct and literally no contemporary evidence to the contrary. What you say is just people who don't want it to be true declaring, without evidence, that it isn't true.
(in Paul's case its the equivalent of saying I don't want it to be true that Stalin killed millions, therefore he didn't).

Finally the claim of Paul bribing James to come around to the 'fabrication' was/is an assertion that is again based on little evidence and a rather jaundiced reading of what evidence there is. Indeed it's clear that within a decade or so of the death, Paul and James were completely on the same page although somewhat at odds over spreading the story to non-Jews.

Remember, I'm not a Christian and don't argue all this leads to salvation etc. But I am a student of the ancient world and how the truth is determined in the ancient scripts. The stories written about the death of Jesus are established in current scholarship as highly reliable.

Foxy,

I wasn't talking about the purposes to which many (most?) people put the current holiday period. I was talking about the reason for the holidays ie why is the Easter egg hunt held this weekend rather than June or August or the 12th of Never.

The reason for the holiday is that a Jewish bloke died 1990 or so years ago. We ought to be at least cognoscente of that fact.

Hi mhaze,

I did explain about the importance of Sunday Mass
about religious films, and everything else
associated with my childhood memories of Easter, including
the comment that my Greek friend made regarding that only
God can rise from the dea. So I would have thought that the reason
for why Easter is celebrated by so many is self evident.

You may want to also broaden this discussion and tell us what
do Jews do for Easter? ( Nothing, they celebrate Passover?).
Just to mix things up a bit. Make it more interesting.

cont'd ...

After all Jesus was a Jew as you pointed out
and what does the Last supper really symbolize?
Seder?

Dear mhaze,

Well not quite I'm afraid.

The reason for the season is because of the pagan celebration of the Spring equinox in the Northern hemisphere. That is why we still retain the symbols of fertility such as rabbits and eggs.

“In Anglo-Saxon England, her springtime festival gave its name to a month (Ēosturmōnaþ, West Saxon Eastermonað), the equivalent of April, then to the Christian feast of Easter that eventually displaced it. “
Wikipedia

It was celebrated on the first full moon after the equinox which made sense as those engaged in festivities could do so under an illuminating moon. The Christians then added a further parameter in the first Sunday after the full moon.

And what better way to carry form the theme of being reborn or raised from the dead than to incorporate it in such a pagan festival. Those early Christians certainly had good marketing awareness.

Our own indigenous folk also were aware of the equinoxes and would likely have marked them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wurdi_Youang

"What you've (Paul) said is now outdated thinking". I did read extensively on the subject of Christianity as a young bloke. mhaze if you can provide new compelling evidence that what I say is somehow now totally debunked, then feel free to present that evidence. Nothing I have put forward diminishes the value or importance of Christianity so to say its comparable to Stalin murdering millions is contestable. I said "most likely" I nave presented anything as hard fact, maybe your overwhelming contempery evidence is hard fact, so cough it up boy. Jesus never set out to create a new religion, he was an orthodox Jew who accepted the scriptures as they were. However he preached reform of the religion, as he felt it had been corrupted and many truths which he was now preaching were being neglected or ignored. At no time did Jesus abandon the Temple or the general practices and customs of his Jewish religion.

As for your distortion of the use of the word "bribe", I said "offered James money" I never said it was personally for James, but actually it was to help sustain the "church" in Jerusalem.

Christianity has been rather inventive over the years. In the third century AD Tertullian invented the Holy Trinity. Tertullian was able to elevate Jesus to the status of a God without creating a new God. The mystery of the Holy Trinity, something that is accepted as gospel by most Christians today, but was controveral when first put forward, as Jesus never claimed to be a god. if Jesus had made the bold claim he was God, the Jews would have stoned him to death.

I remember when for our family
Easter used to begin with Lent.
I remember Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday,
\not eating meat on Good Friday.
Doing the Stations of the Cross -
And Mass on Easter Sunday. Going to confession and communion
was an important part of the rituals associated with Easter,
back then.

And as has been pointed out although Easter is of a high religious
significance in the Christian faith - many traditions associated
with Easter do date back to pre-Christian pagan times. Colouring eggs, Rabbits, and so on.

It may be interesting to note that the Last Supper was
essentially a Passover feast.
But it was given special significance by Jesus
when he referred to matzah (bread) as his "body" and
to the wine as his "blood."

Today - folks have different reasons for why they celebrate
Easter. and how they do it. Not everyone is as religious
today - and many of the old traditions have
gone for many people. Which may or may not be
a shame Depending
on your viewpoint.

Hi Foxy,

I once received a special Holy Medallion, blessed and presented by the Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal Gilroy at St Mary's Cathedral for attending Mass 40 days straight during Lent, did it make me abetter person, I don't think so. I think the Catholics had high hopes at one stage that I might become a priest. During the Vietnam War days a Marist Brother once said to me in relation to my anti-war sentiments; "You can't be both a Christian and a Communist." I replied something like; "I think Jesus was, and he got away with it." By the look of anger on his face, he didn't take too kindly at me saying that. Did my anti war sentiments make me a better person, I think it did.

Honestly, I'm not anti Christian, no one can point to one anti Christian word I've ever posted on this Forum. Yes, I've posted many an anti Catholic words here, but they are not the same thing. Christians should question both their religious teaching, and their church. These days I read a lot on Buddhism, very comforting, very thought provoking. As a young bloke I was told I question too much, I'm to radical, blind faith to anything is a dangerous thing, be it a political movement or a religion. It's good to think right/god is on your side, but to believe it totally it becomes a very dangerous thing.

Hi Paul,

Thank You for sharing your background.

My dad was raised by Jesuits so I grew up
with a strong religious background.

I too started to question things once I
began to travel and saw the world in a
different way. I remember once being in
Mass and the lecture being preached from
the pulpit by a priest was so full of
bile that I ended up walking.

Yet at the same time I have known some
wonderful, dedicated priests who were
great.

I think it's all a question of balance isn't it?
We forget that we're all human with human
foibles. I remember travelling around Mexico when
the Pope visited and thinking to myself if he'd
only give up one of his gold rings - it could
irrigate a village. And also I wondered where
the villages got the money to build some of the
ornate churches that we saw. Perhaps it was a
matter of pride and self respect for them - who knows?
Religion is everything to some - especially when
you don't have much.

Paul1405 & Foxy,

Growing up in pre-Multicultural (aka pre-Asianiztion) Australia I was taught to believe that Easter was a solemn occasion holier than Xmas.

Nowadays, when shopping I am always greeted with a big 'Happy Easter!" from shop assistants who are 99% from other cultures.

So now I've come to realise that Easter is a happy occasion and I would like to wish both of you a great big multicultural

HAPPY CRUCIFIXION DAY

Christ might have died to secure our salvation but it now seems just as likely he also died to make Australia a happy place for multiculturals.

Had I been a Christian, I would probably feel insulted when others used this important religious date to celebrate other, unrelated, social/cultural matters. Can't they find other dates?

For Christians, Easter is about victory over death.
The question whether or not the historical man, Jesus, was dead then came back to life, is superficial: what really matters is his teachings, through which one can overcome death - not by keeping one's mortal body indefinitely physically alive (which is impossible), but by the realisation that one is different from one's body, that while the body must one day fall apart, the indweller within that body is immortal and need not fear death.

Regarding some points mentioned in this thread:

The Romans had no interest in seeing Jesus killed. Rather, they needed to please the Jewish establishment, but also looked for innovative ways to undermine it. I think that they found a great such opportunity in Jesus: while they pronounced him dead after only a few hours on the cross (where he either fainted or entered samadhi¹), they took him down to the tomb where their doctors waited to revive and heal him. Having him walking again and meeting his disciples helped them to split the Jewish community.

Jesus did mention that he was God: "I and my father are one" [John 10:30].

It was not that he was special in that - each and every one is God: the difference is just that Jesus knew it while his disciples did not, so they had to hear it from him. Christians can get so much more by deeply reflecting on Jesus' teachings rather than on the bodily history of Jesus' the man.

---
¹ Yogic state of superconscious concentration where bodily functions such as breathing and heart-beat nearly cease

Hi Yuyutsu,

Interesting take on the "resurrection", a team of doctors, okay.

Roman crucifixions in Judaea during the first century AD were common. In 4BC the Roman general Varus crucified 2,000 Jews, and there were mass crucifixions during the first century AD, according to the Roman/Jewish historian Josephus. "Christ was crucified on the pretext that he instigated rebellion against Rome", he may well have. Pontius Pilate the Roman governor of Judaea, served in that capacity for about 10 years. Despite contempery accounts, Pilate was a valuable administrator for Rome, and certainly during his governorship many Jews were put to death. Would Pilate vacillate over passing a death sentence on Jesus, a common Jew, certainly not, overwhelming evidence would not be required.

As for the Christian references to Christ being God, they are rather vague and somewhat coy, which is understandable for the times. I am the "word", or I am the "son of God", can be interpreted as you please. Jesus was very careful never to claim to be GOD. Such a direct claim would have been a death sentence, not from the Romans, but from the Jews themselves.

Today I value Christianity as a positive for mankind, but that has only come about in the last few hundred years. Recently the Christian God has been transformed to become a loving, forgiving, merciful being. Prior to his transformation God was portrayed as a spiteful, vengeful being, and used as an oppressor of people, rather than a positive influence on people.

May you all stay safe and have time well spent
with your family and friends during this Easter
break.

Dear Paul,

Due to the unreliable nature of the authors, nothing about the life of Jesus is certain and anything is possible, from Jesus not having existed at all on one extreme, to his bodily ressurection on the other (and everything in between). We can only work with logic and probabilities.

But two things are most improbable according to the information we have about Jesus: that he was an ordinary Jew or that he wanted to rebel against Rome. Sure he was Jewish by birth and observed the Jewish commandments, but he was anything but ordinary. The "evidence" to any extent we can call it such, is all against both.

To the extent any of the "evidence" is correct, Jesus was a highly spiritual person who knew God. By the wisdom he presents to his disciples, he may well even been an incarnation of God, like many Avatars before and after him. It was highly unlikely for Pontius not to notice his peacefulness, fearlessness and spiritual aura and reject the baseless false claims about Jesus being a rebel against Caesar and Rome. According to the book, Pontius disbelieved the Jewish leadership's claims and tried to have Jesus speak up and refute them, but when Jesus fell silent, he washed his hands and must have devised some other plan. I do believe that Pontius was not an idiot, I do believe that he didn't buy into the Jewish-leadership's lies. I do believe that he wanted to punish them instead, although he did not do it openly, although he outwardly accepted their demand to kill Jesus. I do believe that he got his sweet revenge in Jesus's "resurrection".

«Such a direct claim would have been a death sentence, not from the Romans, but from the Jews themselves.»

And isn't this just what transpired?
According to Roman law, the Jews were not allowed to kill anyone directly, but instead had to request Rome to do it for them, and so they did.

BTW, God never transformed, whether in recent centuries or otherwise: all that changed was people's understanding (or misunderstanding) of Him.

Many civilisations throughout the northern hemisphere had some sort of festival or suchlike to celebrate the end of winter and the beginning of spring. Hurrah, we survived another winter, the cold being the most dangerous times for humankind. (These days we've lost track of that and fear heat!!). Equally they celebrated the beginning of spring and the reactivation of like. Hence, eggs and buns. Animals were procreating and increasing in number. Plants were emerging from the winter hiatus. So food was again becoming plentiful.

What's not to celebrate?

That the early church subsumed some of that into their own celebrations is undisputed. Nonetheless, the raison d'etre for the celebrations we current enjoy was the death of one man. That one death was one of the most consequential events in human history.

[Deleted for abuse and obscenity]

Paul wote: "I did read extensively on the subject of Christianity as a young bloke. mhaze if you can provide new compelling evidence that what I say is somehow now totally debunked, then feel free to present that evidence."

Likewise I've studied extensively on the early church many moons ago. And like you I was of the view that the Gospels were either unreliable or unverifiable. But about a decade ago I stumbled across some writing suggesting all that was being re-evaluated. I've read plenty since then and have changed my views.

To get a feel for this and as a entre to the issue, this talk is a pretty good jumping off point....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0O4bHuQmX8

It is rather long at 2hours but the last half hour is primarily Q&A and the crux of the issue is the first 30 minutes. Basically the lecture addresses the exact issue you raise. The speaker acknowledges that the consensus 40 years ago was that the Gospels were unreliable and that the death was equivocal. He sets out to explain what's changed such that the consensus these days among the scholars in the field, including agnostic and atheist scholars is that the Gospels and most of Paul's writings are highly reliable such that the easter stories are very likely true.

The talk doesn't cover all the issues but mentions enough other sources to act as a jumping off point.

This thread read certainly won't be on the reading list for theology students.

I took an online quiz about Jesus and only got 62% correct.
They told me that 25% of people got the same result.

cont'd ...

At the moment I'm doing research into - "Did
Christ rise from the dead?"

So much to read.

Hey everyone,

Happy: Easter, Rabbit Season, Passover (as Foxy mentioned)
or 'Whatever it is' that you do that makes today better than a normal day.
(Take note I'm not discriminating against anyone)

With kids or grandkids around stuffing their gobs with chocolate or enjoying a special lunch meal;

- I hope you all have a great day -

Armchair Critic,

Just make sure you tell your grandkids it's Happy Crucifixion Day, not Happy Easter Egg Day.

Better you tell them instead of some multicultural at the local supermarket telling them.

You don't want them to come running to you crying "A man at Woolies told me it's Happy Crucifixion Day."

Mr O,

Most kids wouldn't know what a crucifiction was.
That's so yesterday.

Foxy,

That's the reason we keep telling children it's happy Easter Egg Day: so that they never find out what a crucifixion was.

But now that the LNP has introduced deviant behaviour as a new norm in society I reckon it's time to let the cat out of the bag.

Foxy,

"So yesterday" . . . . . That's so groovy.

Or guess who went to uni during the 60s . . . . . So groovy.

My daughter-in-law tried telling my six year old grand
daughter about Jesus and the crucifiction and the fact
that He died for our sins. Her reaction was that He
didn't even know her. Then she asked if that meant
that she could now be naughty whenever she felt like
it - 'cause it was allright.

"Most kids wouldn't know what a crucifiction was.
That's so yesterday".

Kids haven't known for a long time what a crucifixion was - until they were taught. Now, many, if not most of them, will never know because they are not taught. The whole idea of Christianity is "so yesterday" for the masses. The entire Western system on which it was built is also yesterday stuff to the masses, ignorant of the alternative - which they haven't been taught about either.

Foxy and ttbn,

Me thinks you two are a bit muddled.

Maybe you should think happy thoughts: "Happy Easter Egg Day everybody!"

Or as the LNP deviants would think and say . . . . . . Actually they don't think, they just drool as they work themselves into a frenzy with images of hot chicks and office desks (waiting to get it as they would like to think).

Hey Mr Opinion,
"Just make sure you tell your grandkids it's Happy Crucifixion Day, not Happy Easter Egg Day."
- Yes, forgive me for leaving out Crucifixion Day.
Each to your own.

"Better you tell them instead of some multicultural at the local supermarket telling them."

Truthfully I think the kids I know would probably just give them a weird look
- or act like Foxy's granddaughter, or maybe go tell a parent a stranger was trying to talk to them.

- For everyone -

Personally I think it's kind of wrong to force religion on kids.
Better to teach them good ethics and principles and adequately prepare them for the real world.
And when they're adults let them decide for themselves.
- But there's no harm in knowing the religious stories related to Christmas or Easter.

My friends 6 year old, I lie to her all the time, and she knows this but it still keeps her guessing.
- I do it so she becomes smart enough to know when others are lying or trying to take advantage of her.
But if its something important, I'll always tell her the truth, no matter what.

- And sometimes I'm hard on her.
She showed me something she coloured in for a competition the other day.
I said "You've got little to NO CHANCE of winning with that".
She wasn't happy but she didn't show it.
I said to her mum (loud enough for her to hear) when she scowls at me
'I'm only being harsh because I KNOW THAT she can do HEAPS better'.
'Some of the other kids are going to spend ALL DAY trying to do it perfect not going out the lines, she's gotta do better if she wants to win'.

A couple of days later she brings me this new picture, something she drew herself
She did a great job too, and I commended her on all the parts of her drawing and colouring
- It's been given 'worthiness' status and has been put up on the wall with a few of her other good ones.

"Most kids wouldn't know what a crucifiction was.
That's so yesterday."

Well it was making a come back in the Middle East a few years ago with ISIS. If you google for ISIS and crucifixion it will return quite a few results. I definitely wouldn't recommend searching for it if you find graphic images of people dying distressing. These are the sort of images/videos that kids/teenagers can easily access these days with the internet.

Thanks mhaze for the YouTube link, things have got a bit ahead of themselves here with discussion of Easter Egg Day, but that's this forum, lots of free wheeling.

The YouTube of Gary Habermas, who appears to be an Evangelical Christian, let me say there is nothing wrong with Evangelicals, our PM is one. People who take such a literal approach to the Bible as being a history book of facts I believe are missing the true purpose of the teachings contained therein. Habermas tries to justify the gospels as being historically accurate by pointing to ancient written accounts of people such as Alexander the Great and the Roman Emperor Tiberius by historians well after their deaths, sometimes hundred of years after. Habermas goes on to compare the time after of gospel writing in relation to Jesus's life on Earth, say 40 to 80 years after his death, and the time lapse between the life of historical figures and the written accounts of their existence. I don't see that as proof of anything.

In modern times some "historians" have written totally inaccurate accounts of events because they have a political and philosophical agenda to push. Writings on the 'Holocaust' are a good example, the far right "historian" David Irving has written totally inaccurate Holocaust accounts because of his bias, yet he has written very close to the event and claimed historical accuracy. Should people a couple of thousand years from now pick up a Irving Holocaust account, should they accept it as gospel because it was written close to the even, I think not. The same can be applied to the non historical gospels.

Paul1405,

David Irving is not a historian.

If Irving can be labelled a historian then everyone in the world can be labelled a historian.

His sort of "history" is the sort of story-telling that appeals to the Old Farts and Usual Suspects among The Forum's participants.

Combine that with some good old fashioned LNP deviancy such as rapes, masturbations and 'lying cows' and they think they have it made.

My grandkids were Baptized into the Catholic Church
and I do try to read age appropriate religious stories
to them however I don't like to interfere too much
with their parents. I would like them to have the
old traditions passed on but I don't always succeed.

Still they're good kids and I will keep on trying
as best as I can. As Armchair Critic and Ttbn pointed
out - they will eventually make up their own minds -
but that does not mean that we shouldn't lay a foundation
for them - some of it will rub off - and it's better
than doing nothing. Values are important as is our
culture.

Foxy,

You have done enough sociology to know that religion belongs to traditional society and it is being replaced by science and rational institutionalisation in modernity as people discard their traditional beliefs.

It's only the Old Farts, Usual Suspects and LNP deviants who are ignorant of the post-traditional world. They still think rape, public masturbation and calling women 'lying cows' are a normal part of life.

Mr O,

Normal people don't destroy. And accountability and
ethics is very much a part of the world in which
normal people live.

Foxy,

Do you call LNP deviancy normal?

I don't. And I don't think Jen would either.

Mr O,

Why are you singling out the LNP?

Foxy,

It's all over the news.

I'm just doing what everybody else is doing.

Nothing better than a good old fashioned name & shame.

Plus I think what the LNP deviants have been up to is really quite sick and deserving of derision.

Mr O,

Once again you are being narrow in your
assertions. To fix the culture in Canberra
we need to fix the power imbalance which
can leave employees vulnerable to bullying
and abuse with nowhere to turn. However this
discussion should not be diverted.

This discussion is about the reason for the
holiday season. We can discuss Canberra and
male privilege on my discussion - and how to
fix the problem. It's not just a LNP problem.

Paul wrote: "Gary Habermas, who appears to be an Evangelical Christian..."

Yes, and for that reason I was reluctant to post him as an example of the new research. But his lecture best addressed the issue that you raised so I went with it. But, as I said, it was just one example of that new research and it does contain references to other authors, both Christian and non-Christian, who have come to see the Gospels in an historic context - people like Bart D. Ehrman.

The lecture does draw comparison between other history and the Biblical histories. It is very true that all we know of Alexander, Tiberius, Octavian or even Hannibal was written decades or even centuries after the events in question. While there are examples of contemporary histories such as Thucydides and Xenophon, they are the exception. Students of ancient history are very familiar with the techniques used to decipher the truth from non-contemporary sources. So the points raised in the lecture about doing the same with the Gospels were very familiar to me and rang very true.

While its is true that the Gospels were written decades after the events, what Habermas et al point out is that the various letters of the apostles and Paul were much more contemporaneous being written only a few years after the events in question and yet are compatible with the Gospel tales.

While its true that people like Irving write unhistoric tripe, it is also true that there are any number of books and articles written showing how Irving is wrong. Nothing of that sort exists concerning any of the historic writings of the New Testament.

One book that caused great controversy a few
years back was Prof. Barbara Thiering's,
"Jesus The Man." Despite the outrage and the
controversy it did proved new insights into
Christianity in the context of the Modern
World.

It's a good thing that most people in the real world keep their religious beliefs - or lack of them - to themselves.

I also have a copy of Thiering's book. Overall I found it less than convincing but otherwise a valuable read. In particular I found her explanations of how the Jews would have understood the virgin birth to be insightful and interesting.

Equally her exploration of the Essene practice of having multiple ways of understanding a particular text was important.

However I think she went a little (a lot?) to far with her discoveries and when she started talking of Jesus being the Wicked Priest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I think she lost a fair bit of credibility. Nonetheless, Australia was worse for her passing a few years back.

If you're interested in this type of thing, another book you might like to track down is The Secret Life Of Jesus by Robert Macklin written around the same time as Theiring's book. Again, an insightful reappraisal of what we know about Jesus from the Bible, the various gospels that didn't make the grade at Nicaea and other texts. To my way of thinking a more satisfying though less well-known book than Theiring's. In it he, for example, using the Talmud to speculate that Jesus was sired by a negro Roman soldier and that this (being mulatto) would explain why he was something of an outcast in Jewish society. Lots of similar things to ponder.

mhaze,

Thanks for the book reference. I shall look it up.

Straight back into silliness for the first day after Easter, deputy premier of Queensland has accused the PM of "fomenting vaccine wars with the states to distract from the Higgins alleged rape and sexual harassment stories.

I broke the rule of of a lifetime about lying low on public holidays and went for walk, to be forced off the footpath by people dragged along by packs of dogs, accosted by a drunken African, and shouted at by a yob in passing car who felt the need to call me something ending in 'c...t'. Public holidays are a nuisance, irrespective of what they are for.

"Public holidays are a nuisance, irrespective of what they are for."

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was Jesus's view as well...."you're gunna put nails through my wrists? Well that's a nuisance."

The silliest and most hypocritical thing about people taking religious holidays, killing themselves and others on the roads, getting drunk and obnoxious, ceasing to be productive, is that few of them are the slightest bit religious themselves.

My husband was taken out by our kids for Easter lunch
at a hotel nearby. I stayed home working on a short
story for publication. It was a quiet day. The grandkids
and their parents got packages of Hahndorf chocolates
and chocolate Easter eggs. We were given some coloured
eggs. We watched the movie - "The Ten Commandments" in
the evening.

That's about it.

Easter came and went - with little fuss.
I'm sorry that others had a less enjoyable time.
It shouldn't be that way. And certainly we should all
be safe when going for a walk in our neighbourhood.
Although I wouldn't do it alone, especially at hight.

Foxy,

Ten Commandments is recommended for the kids: no crucifixions. Just Red Sea tsunamis and drowning Egyptians.

If you want them to see 'So yesterday' stuff like Roman crucifixions you need to let them watch The Greatest Story Ever Told or Mel Gibson's The Passion Of Christ.

PS I don't know where they got the plot for the Ten Commandments with thousands of Hebrew slaves toiling on Early Dynasty pyramids which were just 'so yesterday' at the time of Moses because guess what surprise surprise there is no evidence of Hebrew slaves in the Egyptian archaeological record.

My grandkids watched the DVD, "The Star." which is
age appropriate for them.

As for "The Ten Commandments?" I still enjoy watching it.
What writers, film producers do with films -
is only bound by their own imagination.

"The Passion of The Christ," I found too graphic for
children and not age appropriate for my grandkids.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that "The Ten Commandments"
according to the web - "was produced for a cost
of 13.5 million dollars (nearly 120 million dollars today).
This biblical drama was, at the time the most expensive
movie ever made and its initial release took in $120
million worldwide ($1.06 billion today). "

Foxy,

I bet it would have been even more popular if they had thrown in a couple of crucifixions.

Mr O,

The Ten Commandments tells the story of Moses.

BTW: What do you get when you pour hot water into
a rabbit hole?

Hot cross bunnies.

How does Easter end?

With an "R!"

Foxy,

What did Jesus say to the guy on the crucifix next to him?

"What a bastard of a way to spend Easter."

Mr O,

No. what Jesus actually said to the guy next to him
on the cross was:

"I can see your house from here!"

And that's not all.

Jesus's last words were:

"I can't believe you guys would cross me."

Foxy,

Your jokes are just 'so yesterday'.

I suggest you pull yourself away from The Wiggles and start watching people like Jerry Seinfeld and Dave Chappelle.

Mr O,

Here's one from Jerry:

One day Jesus was relaxing in Heaven. He happened to
notice a familiar-looking old man. Wondering if the
old man was His father Joseph, Jesus asked him,

"Did you ever have a son?"

"Yes,"said the old man. "But he wasn't my biological son.
He was born by a miracle,
by the intervention of a magical being
from the Heavens."

" Very interesting," said Jesus. "Did this boy ever have to
fight temptation?"

""Oh yes, many times. But he eventually won. Unfortunately he
historically died at one point, but he came back shrtly
afterwards."

"One last question - were you a carpenter?"

"Yes I was."

Jesus rubbed his eyes, "Dad?"

The old man rubbed his eyes and said,

"Pinocchio?"

cont'd :

BTW: I've got the entire Jerry Seinfeld collection
on dvd.

Hi mehaze,

Someone mentioned other gospels, and there are many such text, which are in the possession of the Catholic Church in Rome. The official reason none of these versions are included with the accepted four is the church claims they cannot determine their authenticity. The most controversial is the Gospel of Peter, which attributes Christs crucifixion to Herod Antipas, not Pontius Pilate. The Peter Gospel dates from the time of the four canonical gospels. According to Theodoret of Cyrus the Nazarenes, the very earliest Jewish Christian sect made use of the Gospel of Peter as the Nazarene Gospel, referring to it as the gospel according to the Hebrews.

Paul1405,

You raise an interesting point there.

I read a book when doing my BA written by a leading historian of Rome in which the author presented Jesus and the disciples as a political movement rather than a new religious movement. It was a Jew versus Jew struggle to win the will of the locals and gain political ascendancy in the local political arena which had all to do with which Jewish denomination one belonged to. Apparently Jesus and his guys were seen by the principal Jewish authorities as a bunch of dangerous radicals who were opposed to the Jewish State.

So they arranged to have Jesus and his crew brought before the Romans on trumped up charges bordering on treason and conspiracy with the aim of eradicating them from the local political system.

I think the author was Michael Crawford, or someone on that level.

It was a very convincing essay and well worth the read.

and the usual false advertizing, the Cross Buns were advertized as being 'hot' but they were all cold.