I'm not a Christmasy person apart from enjoying eating and the availability of cherries for a too short period. I notice that a poster has already wished us the usual, almost automatic 'Merry Christmas'. But, another poster has referred to the 'holiday season', apeing an American denial that has been in place for some time now.

Surely we are not going to cravenly deny our Christian culture and history just because some twats in the US and the Leftists here have decided that non-Christians are somehow offended by the Christianity of the countries that they have been more than happy to immigrate to! Even when those immigrants deny that they are in the least offended, and join in the commercial side of the season for their kids. And, only 7% of the Australian population has a problem with 'Merry Christmas'. I'll bet they are the same people who rubbish the US at every opportunity in other matters. Miserable grinches.

Merry Christmas. It's not just a holiday.

A poll by marketing research firm Dynata between 11-13 December 2020 asked Australians to agree or disagree with the statement: “Merry Christmas is an inclusive phrase which all Australians can relate to.”

79% agree
13% neither agree nor disagree
7% disagree

Those who try enforce the use of the term Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings instead of Merry Christmas seek to censor a Christian holiday in a way that they would never attempt with any other religious holiday.

The poll also asked Australians to agree or disagree with the statement: “Australia has become too politically correct.”

69% agree
20% neither agree nor disagree
11% disagree

Well, let's hope that Dynata are good pollsters. On another line of discussion, but definitely on-topic, I'm not sure how many of you have noticed Foxy's absence, but she's sent me an email and asked me to "Please give everyone my warmest wishes and All the Best for the New Year".

She also tells me that her husband has had a fall and has a fractured spine and has had to be hospitalised. So I'd like to wish Foxy and her husband all the best, and him a speedy recovery.

Hi Graham,

Can you please pass on the best wishes to Foxy and her husband of many of us on OLO ?

And Merry Christmas to you too !

Joe

Age is a vicious thing. The skin gets thin, the bones weak, & balance goes. A minor accident at 30 becomes life changing at 60.

Hope this is not the case for Foxy & her husband. Thankfully she is not having to contend with a lock down as well.

I wish everyone a merry Christmas, & Foxy some good news on her husband to make their Christmas the best ever.

Thanks Graham for passing on our good wishes to Foxy and her husband. Take care.

ttbn- Trying to remove Merry Christmas from our vocabulary is just another form of the 'blanking' and 'cancelling' of British Culture and people. We have become 'persona non grata' in the eyes of our institutions- how did things go so wrong.

I saw an article recently that per capita many times more Non-Indiginous Australian's die in prison than Aboriginals. I guess British Australian people should just give up our homes to Aboriginals and Immigrants and go and sit in a hole. At the end of the day no one is going to look after the interests of British Australian people but us. We need a home too- we built this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody#Qualified_improvement_in_death_rate

Thanks for starting this thread.

CM,

Yes. 'we built this country' - Indigenous people, Chinese, British, Pacific Islanders, Indians (a.k.a. Afghans), Maltese, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, Yugos, Balts, Turks, Lebanese and Arabs, Vietnamese, Filipinos and Filipinas, Cambodians, Indonesians, Thais, Kiwis, Africans, Latin Americans, even the occasional Yank.

Yes, Australia is the proud home of people from all over the world. They have built Australia between them, all manner of Australians.

Is that what you meant ?

Joe

Foul-Mouth,

And don't forget the Chiners (= non-Australian Chinese) all half million of them (ie. your 2% of the resident population at last census count) who were planted here by the Chinese Communist Party as the advance party for the upcoming Chinese invasion. You know, your and your pro-China mob.

Loudmouth the revisionist- interesting.

This should upset a few people...

The song ‘Advance Australia Fair’ was first written in the late 19th century by Scottish composer Peter Dodds McCormick – whose pen-name was “Amicus” which translated to “friend” in Latin.

Some extra verses for the brave...

When gallant Cook from Albion sail’d,
To trace wide oceans o’er,
True British courage bore him on,
Till he landed on our shore.
Then here he raised Old England’s flag,
The standard of the brave;
With all her faults we love her still,
“Brittannia rules the wave!”
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!” 

While other nations of the globe
Behold us from afar,
We’ll rise to high renown and shine
Like our glorious southern star;
From England, Scotia, Erin’s Isle,
Who come our lot to share,
Let all combine with heart and hand
To advance Australia fair!
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!” 

Should foreign foe e’er sight our coast,
Or dare a foot to land,
We’ll rouse to arms like sires of yore
To guard our native strand;
Brittannia then shall surely know,
Beyond wide ocean’s roll,
Her sons in fair Australia’s land
Still keep a British soul.
In joyful strains then let us sing
“Advance Australia fair!”

With Christ our head and cornerstone,
We'll build our nation's might,
Whose way and truth and light alone,
Can guide our path aright,
Our lives a sacrifice of love,
Reflect our Master's care,
With faces turned to heaven above,
Advance Australia fair,
In joyful strains then let us sing:
Advance, Australia Fair!

.

Many thanks for starting this thread, ttbn.

I wish you, Graham, and everyone on OLO a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Though I see no reason to believe in the god hypothesis as an explanation of the universe and everything in it, like you, I see no reason to deny my Christian culture.

My religious instruction teacher at primary school in the Queensland bush has remained one of my lifetime friends. He later became a bishop, an archbishop and served as primate of the Anglican Church in Australia for ten years before retiring with the lifetime title of Bishop.

Though I live in Paris and we have not seen each other for many years, we still communicate together regularly via the internet.

I enjoy the spirit and atmosphere of Christmas, the awesome architecture of the magnificent cathedrals, the silent beauty and intimacy of the little old abandoned stone churches in the French countryside.

When I was a child growing-up in the Queensland bush, Christianity was for me an inspirational means of expression of the spiritual (abstract) dimension of my human nature.

When I retired, I had the time to resume my quest for a god, persuaded that I would eventually become convinced there really was one, but exactly the opposite occurred. I finally saw the light. I realised it was simply a super-natural explanation of the universe that subsequent generations, including my own, have inherited from primeval man – embellished, of course, with all the frills of modern inspiration and scientific compatibility.

I no longer need Christianity, but I am very grateful for it. It has helped me through life and made me the person I am today (for better or for worse).

Before closing, I join my voice with all the others here on OLO in wishing Foxy’s husband a speedy recovery from his back injury. I hope it’s not too painful and that he is receiving effective relief and good care.

Unfortunately, I guess that’s just the sort of thing that happens when you fall head over heels in love with your wife !

.

I'm sure that everyone who contributes to OLO will jon me in wishing Dr Anthony Fauci a happy eightieth birthday today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci

What a wonderful, courageous man, and what integrity - and what a contrast to that vile mongrel who is supposed to be his 'superior'.

Joe

Joe you are seemingly making a habit these days, of putting the dunces cap on the wrong head.

A pox on Fauci.

To the true Christians, not really found a Forum Christian yet, although Foxy does come close to qualifying, I wish you a Christmas filled with love and joy. To the true at heart, and we have several here, I also wish you a Christmas filled with love and joy. And for all, a brighter and happier 2021.

To the turkey who stated this thread, I've already wished you a happy holiday season. With all the customary spit and bile that you display all year round, and not having the slightest trace of true Christianity about you, all I can say is; Pluck yah, stuff yah, and put yah in a hot oven for four hours, and hopefully me old buzzard you'll be done for another year. HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON never the less!

p/s If Christmas was truly Christian, then the Coca-Cola Santa in his red suit, would not outscore the image of Jesus by a thousand to one as he does!

p/p/s; Christmas is an extension of the Roman Festival of Saturnalia, but they didn't have a Coca-Cola Santa, or a Jesus. Never one to miss an opportunity, me name sake, St Paul, simply combined the supposed birth of Christ at this time of the year with the Romans Saturnalia festival. A good bit of PR with the Romans, but Paul did have to create the whole Bethlehem nativity story to fulfil the Jewish prophecy of the coming of the messiah. Christ like his siblings was most certainly born in Nazareth and probably not in December. Those Paul's are certainly smart blokes.

It was not till about the 3rd Century that the Birth of Jesus was celebrated by Christians. That is why the Gospels give very little coverage of Messiah's birth. It fulfils a prophecy written 600 years before of a young woman giving birth to a child who is a Divine ruler who will give his life for all people's sins. More is written about his attitudes and actions as a person and very little about his childhood.

If we are looking for God through comparative religion and Western philosophy we will not find Him. If we are seeking meaning for our spirit being, and our failures as divine beings we will understood the need for forgiveness by an enlightened conscience. We will recognize God is not a physical being as a Western mind envisages; but our spirit is designed as a reflection of the Divine. You in reality are your attitudes and actions, your history, as you relate to others not your physical being. That gives meaning to Christmas, He came to offer forgiveness to the repentant.

Have the security of Joy this Christmas knowing true forgiveness.

A Merry Christmas to All

(sans comments).

Now that Xmas is over I just can't wait until Happy Crucifixion Day comes along.

Happy Crucifixion Day .......... It's one of those great multicultural events that brings the country together.

Mr O,

Happy Holiday Season, Uncle Xi Ping Pong sends his best wishes!

Paul,

"...but Paul did have to create the whole Bethlehem nativity story to fulfil the Jewish prophecy of the coming of the messiah."

Could the story not have come down through Christian oral tradition?

Issy, me old cock! Good to hear from yah, I though yah might have gone for the high jump! Did yah have a good Christmas, I wish you and yours all the best.

Of the 4 Christian recognised gospels only Matthew and Luke make any reference to the birth of Jesus. Matthews reference is scant, no mention of the nativity, simply justifying the out of wedlock pregnancy of Mary. Whereas in Luke's version the whole nativity story is played out in full. Luke was a disciple of Paul's, and most certainly his gospel was based on the teachings of Paul. Matthew was a disciple of Jesus as was John, the only two of the four gospel writers to be so. John's gospel was most likely very short but expanded after his death by followers who were opposed to orthodox Judaism and out of step with the Jerusalem Church what remained of it after about 70AD. Matthew's version very much sticks to the traditional Jerusalem Church concept and teachings of Christ. Mark was close to the Roman Church and was an associate of Paul's, but was a disciple of Peters. Peter appeared to lose leadership and influence in the Jerusalem Church around 15 years after Jesus's death, as James, brother of Jesus, become more influential and directed Christianity back towards orthodox Judaism. In later life Peter appears to have become more or less an "elder statesman" and the nominal leader of the Roman Church which was influenced very much by Paul.

Paul,

Paul, Just wondering but was James the full brother of Jesus, or only the half-brother, both the offsprings of Mary, but only one also the son of the human Joseph ?

I thought that the notion of the coming of a Messiah was a very old one embedded in Judaism, and that there had been quite a few dodgy 'Messiahs' since David's time. And of course, ever since Jesus, many others who claimed to be the real Messiah ?

Folk tales and myths can be so entertaining.

Merry Christmas !

Joe

Comrade Foul-Mouth,

It will show up on their birth certificates.

(Honestly, why do I bother?)

James, and Joses were sons of Joseph from his first marriage and are mentioned as being present at the time of Jesus Birth. Joseph was chosen to be Mary's husband by the Priest Zecheriah because he already had sons older than Jesus and as a younger son it would hide him among the family from Herod.

The sons of Joseph initially refuse to accept Jesus, [John 7: 5, Mark 3: 35] but in time they accept Jesus and James states in his writings that he serves him as Messiah [James 1: 1].

Hi Joe,

The early Jerusalem Church had reconciled with orthodox Judaism after the execution of Christ by the Romans for sedition. That assumes there was a fundamental break between the followers of Christ, and the orthodox Jewish religion of the time, but there is no evidence for that, in fact Christ accepted the Torah as did James, it would be heresy not to. James was a leader, not just of the Christian sect, but was a respected leader in the Temple until his murder there sometime around 65AD, most likely due to politics more so than religion, although both were intertwined.

At the time of the Jesus birth Mary would not have been any older than 14, she most likely lived to an old age, into her 50's. Joseph the "old man" was most likely in his early 20's, it would have been an arranged orthodox Hebrew marriage as was the custom, and the pair would have been related in some way. Given Mary's tender age it would have been the first marriage for her, and possibly Joseph, Joseph would not have been taking a dead brothers wife also the custom of the time. Joseph could have had a previous wife (deceased, maybe due to child birth) and he could have had children, which would become siblings to Jesus, through their father Joseph (male line). If Joseph had died after the birth of Jesus it would have been Joseph's brother who would have taken Mary as a "wife" and she could have more children to him, children were identify then through the father, therefore seen as cousins to Jesus and not half brothers and sisters. Although both Mark and Matthew make reference to Jesus have both brothers and sisters. Me thinks relationships at that time were somewhat different to what we accept today.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for that, it makes some sense. It's amazing how much information is available from those times.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Yes interesting stuff, for example the way Pontius Pilate is presented as a weak vacillating man, nothing could be further from the truth. Roman history paints a very different, and I'd say truthful picture of Pilate, he had the full confidence of Rome, so much so, as to be placed in charge of the unruly province of Judada for 11 years, by one of the best Roman Emperors Tiberius. The guy was a real head kicker, and the notion that he carried on with, "will I, or wont I" nail this bloke to the cross would be garbage. Pilate was a man of swift justice, Christ as a common Jew, would have been dispatched to a crucifixion by Pilate without giving it a second thought.

Although I much prefer the Pontius Pilate from 'The Life of Brian'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkiCKv3EZy8&ab_channel=LeopoldoDrag

Pontius Pilate committed suicide when Caesar sent a possie to bring Pilate to Rome when it was discovered he was putting to death innocent people. Remember Pilates wife was not happy with the death of Jesus and probably through her it had got back to Rome [Matthew 27: 19]. By the end of the first century wives of Roman officials sent to England also had become Christian.

There's not much Christmas spirit shown by businesses refusing customers' cash then adding a charge for the use of cards. If they won't take cash, take your business elsewhere; leave a pile of stuff on the counter for them to out back on the shelves.

All ery interesting but could not the Gospels have been based on accurate Christian oral tradition?

Hi Jose'

Have not read a great deal about Pontius Pilate during my Biblical studies of the past.

Thought I would investigate your claims regarding Pilate. Emperor Tiberius did indeed recall Pilate to Rome after Pilate had successfully quashed a rebellion amongst the Sumerians. For what reason Pilate was recalled is not known, but having given 10 years service in Judea, it may have been a reward from Tiberius as a favourite, unfortunately Tiberius died before Pilate reached Rome and his nephew Caligula become emperor, history records nothing more of Pilate from that point on. Your account of Pilate committing "suicide" may have some validity as many prominent Romans disappeared during Caligula's short but bloody rule.

Stories of Pilate converting to Christianity and even becoming a martyr, are based on Christian text from the Middle Ages which dates the claim at a minimum 500 years after Pilate's death. Matthew 27: 19, why Pilates wife would have taken an interest in Jesus is hard to explain, as most certainly she would not have been a follower of Christ, or even interested in the local religion. The Roman authority was based in Caesarea and not Jerusalem, and Pilate and his wife would have been extremely religious in the aristocratic Roman tradition. It must be said Romans were tolerant and interested in the practices of other religions. Rome itself was a cosmopolitan mix of people and religions.

Other than the four accepted Canonical Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it would be interesting to read the unacceptable Gospels such as that of Peter, Philp, Thomas and even Judas. They would certainly contain some interesting material.

Yes Paul, Monty Python humour these days is cancelled.
What a pity, the idiots do not know what they have done !

Bazz, I rate 'The Life of Brian' as the funniest mover ever made, and the Pontius Pilate scene the funniest in the whole movie. The Catholic Church banned Catholics from seeing the moving, so as a good Catholic I ran off and watched it asap. I have a copy so I've watched many times but no matter, it never fails to be funny.

BTW, What ever happened to Biggus Dickus, didn't get a mention in the Bible.

"Could not the Gospels have been based on accurate Christian oral tradition?"

Or does such a concept interfere with your agenda, Paul?

Hi Is Mise,

I suspect that " ..... accurate .... oral tradition" is a very rare phenomenon.

Joe

Issy, what pray tell is my "agenda"? Other than to seek what is reasonable, rather than accept material at face value. Many Christian scholars who have studied the gospels in depth, far greater depth than any of us, say they are not to be treated as "history books". Many of the characters and places motioned are real and unquestioned, including the existence of Jesus Christ.

As for the gospels being "based on accurate Christian oral tradition" I think Joe has answered that assumption well.

Paul,

You amaze me; I thought that the Greens gave great credence to the accuracy of oral traditions.
Certainly, I, and others, have that impression from their staunch support for the accuracy of Aboriginal oral traditions over thousands of years.

"Oral histories help connect Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people with their ancestors, and with the past.

Today, these oral traditions are helping to shed light on how the Australian continent changed throughout major geological events.

Dr Karl explains how science and indigenous knowledge are coming together to better understand Australia's history."
from the ABC.

"Western discourse has come to prioritize the written word as the dominant form of record keeping and until recently, Westerners have generally considered oral societies to be peoples without history. This could not be further from the truth. Oral societies record and document their histories in complex and sophisticated ways, including performative practices such as dancing and drumming. Although most oral societies, Aboriginal or otherwise, have now adopted the written word as a tool for documentation, expression and communication, many still depend on oral traditions and greatly value the oral transmission of knowledge as an intrinsic aspect of their cultures and societies."

http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/oral_traditions/

So, could not Christian oral traditions, spanning a few hundred years be just as accurate or are we to believe that Australian Aboriginal history is unreliable?

Christians have written records closer to the event of the first century than any other events of that time.
Paul,
here is one account, though it must be questioned.

Historic Letter written by Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar
www.theancientbridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/his_letter.pdf

Issy, you thought wrong, as far as I am aware The Greens do not necessarily give great credence to the accuracy of oral traditions, but then you would know. Possibly you are confused with The Gunnies whose oral tradition proclaims Ned Kelly as the Messiah. Do you want us to believe the world is carried around on the back of a giant elephant? Nope I can't believe that.

Jose', your long winded "letter" reportedly from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius seems to be in the style of modern English and may not be authentic.

My original hypothesis was that Paul, and not Jesus was the true founder of Christianity. I assert that the early church was made up of two distinct sects, the Jerusalem Church led by James, brother of Jesus, a traditionalist group which embraced the teachings of Jesus whilst remaining within the confines of orthodox Judaism. The other group was the Roman Church led by Paul the Apostle. The evidence for this claim is the fact half, if not more, of the New Testament can be attributed directly or indirectly to Paul. It is accepted that Paul seen himself as the greater apostle, believing the chosen 12 only knew Christ in the physical sense, when as he through a series of revelations had come to know Christ in the spiritual sense, and Christ spoke through him.

cont

cont

There were many points of contention between the James traditionalist, and the Paul radicals, not the least Paul's inclusion of gentiles and their practices and beliefs within the church. On his visits to Jerusalem there was open hostility between James and Paul over this inclusion of gentiles, although Paul tried to appease James through financial offerings to the Jerusalem Church, which were not successful. The hostility reached such a level that Paul declared himself a Roman citizen. In the context of today that would be like an Irish Catholic declaring himself a protestant.

In no way was James able to expand Christianity through the orthodox Jewish religion, and events of 70AD and after spelt the end of the Jerusalem Church. Where as the Roman Church, despite some setbacks, was able to grow in prominence and stature throughout the Roman Empire, eventually becoming the pre-eminent religion of the Roman world, out surviving the empire itself.

Paul,
I do not believe the conflict between the Roman Church and the Jerusalem Church was to the extent as you claim. That seems to be a Islamic view as they rejected the teachings of Paul. Paul supported the Jerusalem Church as he encourages the Gentiles Christians to support the Jerusalem Church. In Paul's view there was no difference between Jew and Gentile, though he was raised an orthodox Pharisee who originally was responsible for putting to death heretics of the Jewish faith. Peter who was a Jewish patriot [zealot] expected Jesus to reestablish Israel, but in a vision realized Gentiles were not the unwashed as he had been taught. The gospels also talk of Christ eating with unwashed hands.
Read the Acts.

Paul,

Do you mean to tell me that the Greens and others do not believe Aboriginal claims about the accuracy of their traditional oral history?

Gees!! Wonders will never cease.

Is Mise,

Interesting point: there was a drought here lasting 38-39 years around the year 1200. That would have driven people across the entire continent into refuges (short-term survival: water but eventually no food) and to the coastal rivers if they were fortunate enough to inter-marry with people there. After a drought that long, it might have taken generations, perhaps centuries, to re-populate the emptied country, i.e. most of the continent.

So any earlier stories about sites etc. would have been forgotten, and new stories would have had to be devised, perhaps by populations whose ancestors had had nothing to do with those countries, or only the vaguest connections through distant marriage. Perhaps this re-population process - and re-culturalisation/identification process - was still going on in 1788 and beyond.

So any assertion of very long-term traditions being passed easily on may need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Joe

Flavius Josephus, original name Joseph Ben Matthias, (born AD 37/38, Jerusalem—died AD 100, in Rome) wrote in his record of History 63 AD The Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 3 "The sedition of the Jews against Pontius Pilate" - item 63 "Now there was about this time Jesus a wise man, if it was lawful to call him a wise man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him many men of the Jews and many Gentiles. He was the Christ [Messiah] and when Pilate at the suggestion of the principal men among us had condemned him to the cross those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day as our divine prophets had foretold, these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him, and the tribe of his followers are not extinct at this day".

Jose' The history of those times are a jigsaw puzzle, with many pieces missing. There will always be speculation as to truth, and the separation of fiction from fact being a most difficult undertaking. It is evident that there were competing forces with their own agendas in the early church, not the least being that of Paul and James, Rome and Jerusalem. At the end of the day it was the Roman Church which succeeded in establishing the foundation for the future of Christianity in the world. A new religion which uniquely was able to retain beliefs from ancient Judaism, whilst plotting a new path that established itself as the worlds pre-eminent religion of today.

Paul, I believe it was not till the 3rd century that conflict arose between the Jerusalem Church and the Roman Church, when the Nicene Creed was established, when Western Catholic views of God ostracized the Jerusalem believers. The Apostle John and James were from the Jewish Church and their writings amplify the same teachings as Jesus. They both see Jesus as Master teacher or Lord.