Dear Saltpetre,

Thank You once again for your thoughts.

I believe that a life without heart is a life without
life force. The psyche, as well as the body needs both
heart and brain in order to survive. Like Chinese women
who bound their feet and then could no longer walk freely
some of us have bound our hearts and therefore have
stunted our growth as moral beings.

I have found that life without a conscious awareness of
God was difficult. I'm probably not very religious.

I won't say any more because I don't want to be ridiculed.
But again - Thank You.

Dear Yuyutsu and ALTRAV,

I really have nothing more to add to this discussion.
I think people's beliefs that do not do harm to others
should be respected. Its's personal.

I agree with ALTRAV that unless organized religions
do step up to the plate - they will whither away.
Because people are seeking answers. People need hope.
It encourages them to act as though there is more to life
than meets the eye. We can but live and hope that
someone listens to them.

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Dear david f.,

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You wrote :

« … most interesting was … Yuyutsu … remarking that Hindus see hope as a weakness »
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Yuyutsu probably has good reason for saying that, though I understand that there are many different schools of Hindu philosophy just as there are in Western philosophy and not much consensus among any of them.

Nevertheless, a common concept of many Hindu philosophers seems to be “the liberation of the soul through detachment … by giving up desires, longing, and possessiveness one attains the holy state of peace”.

Krishna is quoted as having said “the ancient way of action is for liberation. The enlightened can see action in inaction and inaction in action. Independent action is without hope, possession, and envy”.

The terms “hope” and “desire” are considered by many to be synonymous. Hindu philosophers almost invariably refer to “desire” rather than “hope”.

Perhaps they see “desire” as morally negative as compared to “hope” which has a distinctively optimistic connotation.

The problem with that philosophy, of course, is how you define what is desirable compared to what is necessary – which, in turn, depends on what you consider to be your duty, objective in life, perhaps your raison d’être. Individuals usually play a particular role in society with which they interact. They are not necessarily alone in defining their desires and needs – which may be determined in part or in total by society, their environment or particular circumstances.

Needs and desires may be different, coincide, or possibly overlap with each other. They may be more or less compatible or more or less antagonistic.
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Western philosophers are less inclined to consider “desire” and “hope” as strictly synonymous. Nor do they see “hope” as necessarily optimistic.

I understand their reasoning. However, I tend to agree with Theocritus, the Ancient Greek (3rd century BC) poet who notably declared that “while there’s life there’s hope”.

There is an excellent article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the Western philosophy of “hope” that you might like to read. Here is the link :

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/#Oth

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Posted by david f, Thursday, 30 July 2020 11:26:50 AM

What we think are vices and virtues are merely what we have been conditioned by the tradition that we are part to regard as a vice or a virtue. I was taught to regard faith as a virtue. I now think of it as a vice. Maybe it is neither but something useful in certain circumstances and not useful in other circumstances. That comment helped me think.

Answer-

For me that's one reason why culture is important- because it creates our reality. Who ever "our" is. Cultural Relativism. Philosopher of Science and Existentialist- Paul Feyerabend is interesting here even though his views are of a different subject area. You can use logic to a point- at some point faith (in a broad sense) seems to be all that matters. Life has no meaning but what you give it- this is culture. It's fragile and precious but it's what binds us together- the culture within a family or a small community is different from the large scale social structures of nations or the world

Dear Banjo,

«Krishna is quoted as having said “the ancient way of action is for liberation. The enlightened can see action in inaction and inaction in action. Independent action is without hope, possession, and envy”.»

Not a straight quote, but a combination from Chapter 4 of the Bhagavad-Gita, verses 18,21,22:

4.18. The wise who sees inaction in action and action in inaction, he is whole and has fulfilled everything there is to be accomplished.
4.21. The one who mastered his mind and body, without hoping and having renounced possessiveness, performing just what is needed to preserve their body, does not incur sin.
4.22. Whatever comes he is content, having grown past dualities and envy, equanimous in success and failure, though engaged in action, that action does not bind him.

(apologies for any translation errors I might have committed, I do not consider myself a sufficiently qualified authority)

«The terms “hope” and “desire” are considered by many to be synonymous»

Very similar, only with subtle differences, "hope" is more passive than "desire".

«Perhaps they see “desire” as morally negative as compared to “hope” which has a distinctively optimistic connotation.»

Neither is immoral on its own, but being more active, desire is more likely to lead to immoral actions than "hope", which is rather passive.

«The problem with that philosophy, of course, is how you define what is desirable compared to what is necessary – which, in turn, depends on what you consider to be your duty, objective in life, perhaps your raison d’être.»

Over years of practice, one can develop the sensitivity to detect where (within their mind) their urges originate from on a case-by-case basis. Until then, you should just do your best, and where possible, consult scripture and teachers.

«Needs and desires may be different, coincide, or possibly overlap with each other.»

Very true. Do your best to fulfill your duties, keeping in mind that you could sometimes be in error. If you do so with humility, devotion, a sense of service and without expecting personal gain, no sin will be incurred.

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Dear Yuyutsu,

.

Many thanks for those precisions. Apparently, I was not too far off, but it is better to have the correct text.

Your explanations are much appreciated.

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