Renowned US economist Thomas Sowell, commenting on Hayek's famous 'Fatal Conceit' wrote "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong,".

Which brings us to the various lockdowns. None, and I do mean none, of the people who make decisions about the lockdowns, pays the economic cost of those lockdowns. Health experts remain employed. Politicians remain employed. No public service has been laid off or put on JobKeeper.

The ABC et al are fond of telling us "we're all in this together" except when they're telling us its 'unprecedented times' and 'Orange Man Bad'. But we're not all in this together. Sure they can't get their smashed avo latte, and that must be an unimagined heart-ache for them, but they are in no danger of becoming unemployed.

Imagine if the government instituted a policy that the same proportion of publicly funded employees would be JobKeeper-ed as in the private sector. That the pain would be shared. That medical experts and pollies would have their salaries reduced in the same proportion as the overall income loss of the plebs.

As a thought exercise, I wonder just how very different the policy proposals and policy decisions would be under those circumstances. I suspect the lockdown enthusiasm would evaporate if we really were all in this together.

mhaze,

It's very easy to criticize. But please tell us what
would you do if you were in the PM's shoes?
How would you have dealt with the pandemic?

True. It's the way of the world. We are not all in anything together. Never have been. Never will be. But how could it be different? If the politicians were in the same fix as people who have lost their jobs, who would make the decisions? Who would get up every day and try to work out ways to help people who have been affected?

As for public servants being untouched, how would cutting their pay or standing them down help? And what about people on pensions, Age and Disability? They are not 'in it' either.

I know. It's irritating when the PM mouths the 'all in it together' slogan. I would like to slap him about his Mussolini jaw. Same goes for the ABC nasties, the academics and all other elites.

But, penalising some people who are still doing what they always do - much of it essential work and services needed by the people who are directly affected by China virus - would be daft and pointless.

However, mhaze, you are perfectly entitled to raise the subject without having to answer some petty idiot troll demanding to know what you would have done about dealing with the epidemic if you were being paid half a million dollars a year to do the PM's job. Nothing whatsoever to with your topic.

There are women who would not be feeling the 'togetherness" at this time. A line stating that politicians and 'experts' are "crisis-ing" people to death leads to an ABC online report stating that there has been a 37% drop in reports of breast cancer because of the lockdowns and women being afraid to go out for testing. The Victorian screening service is temporarily closed. The medical profession is alarmed; has been since April, but nothing has been heard of the situation until now.

This situation has brought into focus the attitudes and intellect of the the people out there.
As much as I'm with Sweden and others who 'let the chips fall where they may'.
As my predictions are being played out in front of us right now, I doubt shutting down a whole country is going to help the weak, frail and elderly, or those susceptible to this virus.
Despite the best efforts and intentions by those empowered to deal with this, the virus is still going, and irrespective of lock-downs or incoming travelers, the net result IS the same.
So you all would not be surprised at my decision, and that would be to advise people to do all the safety precautions, the medical profession is suggesting, but still leave it to the people to decide, and I would definitely NOT close down businesses.
That was the easiest and laziest decision of all and will prove to be the worst and most destructive of all for people and our economy and therefore our long term survival and prosperity.
Remember, this is just like trying to run/hide from the law, when you eventually come of of hiding, (lock-down) you will be caught and you will risk death, only it took a little longer, but you all still died in the end.
So destroying everyone else's lives and livelihood in a pointless attempt at saving those who cannot be saved, is akin to a genocide of sorts.

ttbn,

So glad that you recognise people's entitlements to
raise subjects for discussion. Perhaps you shall now
change your opinion about my raising the discussion
on China? And who knows you may even stop calling
people trolls - when they express an opinion or ask
a valid question - which is another entitlement to
which we are all - entitled.

There's a good chap.

Hi Altrav, the only thing we can really compare this pandemic with is the so called "Spanish " flu of 1918. Without access to antibiotics or modern medicine they got on top of it by quarantining and using masks. It killed up to 3 percent of the world population, most of these deaths were in countries and areas which did not quarantine and did not use masks.

please tell us what
would you do if you were in the PM's shoes?
Foxy,
I'd not hesitate for a moment to reduce Public Service salaries (incl. of course politicians) by 15 % until such time all is back to what could be considered normal.
This would also prove a perfect time to introduce Flat Tax & national Service !

Jimmy2shoes, I can understand your reasoning, but unfortunately had they not come up with an anti-biotic or as you say, modern medicines, the death toll would have been much higher, as it will be here as well, till they find a vaccine or a new medicine to stop this one too.
I concur with your account of quarantine and face masks, as I said in my posting.
But my overarching point is that, even with all the precautions, without the vaccine, those people who are susceptible to the virus would eventually die, unless they remained isolated until the threat and the carriers had ALL died, including and especially the infected people.
But the problem does not stop there, because they have now found that even though you do not test positive you are still a carrier, and therefore can still infect, and even suddenly fall ill yourself.
So we have these "sleepers" who are still a threat.
What do we do about them, because while they are allowed to move freely amongst the people, the threat is still there, and could break out all over again at any time down the line at some point, without notice or warning?

Morrison has never been a conservative, and has now proven his economic socialism, wrecking the economy. Over the next two years, there will be enough trials and tribulations resulting from his 'save-a-few-lives-at-any-cost' panic to see the end of him (if the Liberal Party doesn't see sense and relieve him first).

Oh, and he is going to take another holiday in a situation far worse than the bushfires. And, no. He is not entitled to a holiday 'like everyone else'. Everyone else doesn't have the responsibility of running a country and have 25 million people depending on him to do it. He should not have been lambasted for being on leave BEFORE the bushfires, but he should not be excused for buggering off in the middle of our biggest crisis in 100 years. His victims - those he plunged into closure and unemployment - can't forget their troubles and go on holiday.

"what would you do if you were in the PM's shoes?"

This has little to do with the PM. These decisions are being made by the state leaders.

Dearie me, Foxy. You really do struggle with this whole federation of states notion, don't you? Both as regards here and the US.

As to what I'd do, I've discussed that earlier - as far back as early April.... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9129#301593

Here I'm pointing out that those making the decisions are not being asked to contribute to those decisions. They are demanding sacrifice for the general good, without making any sacrifice themselves.

And if they were, through some artificial mechanism, forced to sacrifice, then their views and decision might be very different.

mhaze,

No I don't struggle with anything. You're the one
who seems to be having problems with comprehension.
Not me.

Back in May the PM outlined a 3 step plan to re-open
the country by July but every state and territory was to
have its own timetable. It was all to be part of a gradual
easing of corona-virus restrictions that would differ from
state to state. The PM at the time announced a host of
new measures and restrictions.

As for the US electoral college? What I did try to get
across to you at the time was that there were/are moves
in the US government to eliminate the electoral voting
system (which is outdated). It does not represent how
the population votes. Hilary Clinton got close 3 million
more votes. But lost on the electoral vote system.
This needs to be reformed.

Originally the electoral system in each
state was established by the size of the
population in that state. The population in
some states has now increased but not their electoral votes.
The number of electoral votes was established by the size of the
population at that time. For example 100,000 people equals one
electoral vote. (I don't know the exact count). So three
states with smaller populations can have more electoral votes
than one state with a bigger population, by today's count.

You don't have to take my word for this. Do your own research
on the American electoral voting system - and how outdated it
is.

Foxy,

I wasn't talking about the electoral college screw-up you made. That was long forgotten because I thought I'd trained you on how it works. But alas not, it seems.

No I was referring to the errors you made in thinking that the responses to the virus were a federal issue here and in the US when in fact the major decisions are made in the states ie that whole Federalism thingy that eludes you.

As to the electoral college screw-up, go here to refresh your memory on how I trained you on your misunderstandings...
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=20202#357305

The sad part is that if you read further down in that thread you'll find yourself acknowledging your error. Which you're now making all over again!

And now back to the original idea...what happens when the those who call for sacrifice share the sacrifices? Does that change the nature of sacrifice they want?

Foxy, the voting system of each country is what it is for reasons relating to the circumstances of each country.
Your opinions on our voting systems are of no consequence or interests to anybody, let alone giving an opinion on the US system.
Your just pissed that your mentally and emotionally challenged 'pin-up' girl got shamed and tossed out on her ear.
She was another 'entitled deplorable' who was worse than Trump, in every way.
And she demonstrated it well when she lost, by carrying on like a spoilt brat chucking hissy fits and generally being a very nasty person.
Definitely not the mental and emotional stability of a President and the biggest deal breaker for me is that she is female, and one with NO discernible qualities or abilities to carry or justify the position of POTUS.
The US is much better off with Trump, faults and all, if the only other choice was her or now Biden.
The voting systems of countries are things that were established many moons ago and they are what they are for whatever reason.
I suggest, instead of slagging off at the voting systems of a country, simply because the outcome did not suite you, try doing what you do best, research the whole thing and then you will be better informed and will better understand WHY we all have the voting systems we have.
Even though our system is the Westminster system, it is not unlike the college system because of the population imbalance of voter numbers between the country and the city.
But I think you already knew that, and your just venting.

Sorry Gentlemen - you've lost me. Not sure
what either of you are on about so I shall
leave you both to fight it out amongst
yourselves. You're obviously in good company
with each other. (smile).

Cheers.

mhaze,
Gee, is it something we said, or did she suddenly realise she's been on the wrong bus all her life, and decided she could not face what she has just finally realised is the truth and is now exposed to;
THE REAL WORLD!
I think we just witnessed the proverbial; Stop the world/bus, I want to get off!

Foxy,

Most people would have done exactly what Scott Morrison did: Tell everyone to get out from under the donna and get back to work and tell the States to open their borders and schools.

Victoria did what he said to do and look what a success it turned out to be.

This nonsense about the US electoral system has to stop; it's the same for all Presidents. And you two blokes really need to stop giving that attention-seeking woman oxygen.

She says, "I shall
leave you both to fight it out amongst
yourselves".

How many times have we seen that! But she always comes back, snapping and snarling with more rubbish lifted straight from the ABC and the Red Press. It's hard to decide who is worse: the old battleaxe herself or the people who keep pressing her buttons. She craves attention, and OLO is probably the only place she gets it. We've all suffered enough! Just leave her alone to waffle for pity's sake

ttbn,

I would like to agree with you, but I can't help it.
I have never been able to stand by and say nothing when I hear of something which clearly needs to be challenged or corrected.
As much as I, like others here on OLO, have my detractors, it does not sway me from doing what is right or necessary, and no end of snide remarks and derogatory put-downs, or appeals to the OLO adjudicators, will or should stop me from saying what needs to be said, if for no other reason, to tell the truth.
You are quite right, when someone says they are leaving the thread, I would take them at their word, but NO, some decide they want to return.
That's OK, I don't mind.
If they are of the type who will say the wrong things, it just means they will be subjected to the same scrutiny as usual.
I find it fascinating that they will comment on EVERY damn thing or topic listed.
I only comment on the ones I know something about, and that's why they get themselves in the poo, because they HAVE to be involved in every conversation, somewhat like the old gossip/biddy down the road.
Which leads me to correct her once more.
NO-ONE, I repeat, NO-ONE, knows everything about everything.
Someone should tell her the next time she stops to take a breath between comments.

"is it something we said"

The funny bit is that I didn't even raise the issue. She did. A couple of years back I'd schooled her in her factual errors and she'd been humiliated at the time. She thought she'd have another crack at it.

Foxy does this quite a bit. When she's wrong she sudden declares she doesn't want to talk about it any longer. Its her way of acknowledging error.

mhaze,

If that's Foxy's excuse then what's your excuse for always being wrong?

Now, now, Mr O, play nice.

mhaze,

BTW. Scott Morrison is starting to buy up all the cashed up Chinese he can get his hands on. Do you want some?

ALTRAV,

"I have never been able to stand by and say nothing when I hear of something which clearly needs to be challenged or corrected".

Sorry mate; but it doesn't work with the likes of her - it just makes her worse. There are people who are so far out of touch with reality, so full of themselves, that they cannot be reached. She's been at it long enough to prove that she is one of those people. Only a shrink could explain the behaviour involved. Whereas most people, including OLO posters, know when it's time to back off and agree to disagree, she is manic: obsessed with winning arguments about anything at all. 'Yeah, whatever' is not an option for her. She doesn't know when to let go or, most likely, doesn't know how to let go. As long as I've been involved with OLO, not one poster has changed his or her mind on anything. Yet, there are three bullies here, she being one of them, who cannot stop themselves from attacking anyone they disagree with.

As you say, she has to comment on "every DAMN thing or topic listed". That's plain unnatural. Normal people don't have the interest in or knowledge of that many subjects. She must spend most of her time frantically looking up stuff that she hasn't previously taken an interest in or even heard of.

Perhaps Graham might consider restricting the General Forum in the same way the main one is: topics up for one day only, with stricter limits on the number of comments per poster? How many times does any one of us have to say the same thing?

"When she's wrong she sudden(ly) declares she doesn't want to talk about it any longer. Its her way of acknowledging error". (mhaze)

Yes. But quickly recovers after she consults the ABC or the gutter press for more ammunition - whether she understands it or not.

Dear mhaze,

Chiding Foxy for errors? You really do have a hide my young lad.

You are one of the apex examples on this thread of someone who is constantly pulled up for spouting utter rubbish but you never acknowledge your mistakes. Instead you dive into diversions, slurs, further half truths and when all those fail you just stop answering.

The ones you especially sook about are those I have pulled you up on where you felt you were being technical enough that no one would bother checking like your statistic on excess deaths. You got seriously shown up and so you sulked for a little while and left the topic alone. Now you are back for another dip.

I do need to ask why do you think this will be any different? History has not been kind to your earlier predictions and your faith in your president must be a little dented but here you come. COVID has been a real minefield for you hasn't it. Your slavish support for Sweden's effort continues unabated even when the architect of their response has admitted to mistakes.

Your response continues to to be driven by your ideology. It quite frankly sticks to high heaven, however there is sport to be had so let the games begin.

Why is the only factor you are considering as to whether people are 'all in this together' is if they have taken a drop in pay or are on Job Seeker?

I'm sure public servants are also having to deal with kids at home, limited travel, facemasks, test, shopping shortages, diminished elective surgeries, etc.

This is an unfair charaterisation and one that yet again betrays your ideology.

Try again.

altrav, you made this point
"But my overarching point is that, even with all the precautions, without the vaccine, those people who are susceptible to the virus would eventually die, unless they remained isolated until the threat and the carriers had ALL died, including and especially the infected people. "
My point would be we are all going to eventually die, who gets to choose exactly who we abandon?

jimmy2shoes,

I do. And guess what, I choose you!

Bully number two rushes to the defence. Another one best it ignored for the sake of decorum, peace and common sense.

jimmy2shoes,

good question.
The answer is simple; the virus does.
You see my point is that we CAN'T choose who lives or dies, we can only wait and see.
Those who are sick, old, weak and infirm or susceptible or vulnerable, are going to contract the virus, sooner or later.
If you isolate and hide away you will live for as long as you do that, BUT, when you venture out again you will come into contact with the carriers at some point, and you WILL die.
That's all I'm saying.
So Sweden decided to get it all over sooner than later thereby sparing the young and healthy viable of the population.
The reason there is a seemingly, change of heart, is purely a political decision to try to placate those who think he erred.
I am never-the-less curious as to what the numbers or stats in Sweden are doing, especially as and when we approach the end of this pandemic.

ALTRAV,

The good news is that the Swedes believe that those infected by the WuFlu develop antibodies making them immune to further infection.

The bad news is that those infected do not develop antibodies to the WuFlu. It just comes and goes like a regular flu but destroys one's internal organs each time one catches it (assuming one survives).

Overall impact: average life expectancy decreases. Get it when one is 10 years old and one might live to see 35, if you're lucky.

It has taken the deaths of many thousands of deaths and rampant and out of control surge in infection numbers to finally get Trump to wear a mask in public but here it is;

http://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1282068536731611142?s=21

I doubt though that he has any sense of 'being in it together' rather diminishing poll numbers may well have brought him to heel.

What a venal turkey the man is.

SR,

I dispute your dreadful slur on venal turkeys >:(

Joe

Lots of accusations there,SR, but not a single example.

Oh I acknowledge that you keep asserting that you've found error, but you never quite hit the mark. Just make the assertion.

You see, a firm example of error is when someone (let's call them SR) says "There is ample evidence to show the Russians were desperate to get Trump in.". Then when called out, that someone suddenly decides they have an urgent appointment elsewhere and disappear for a week or three.

"Your slavish support for Sweden's effort continues unabated..."

Well I've never actually expressed support for the Swedish response. But I have sought to offset the irrational attacks on the Swedish response. The efficacy of each style of response is, as yet, undetermined.

"I'm sure public servants are also having to deal with kids at home, limited travel, facemasks, test, shopping shortages, diminished elective surgeries, etc."

Yeah, being forced to stay home with the kids is totally the same as loosing a business you've built for over 30 years along with the accompanying livelihood and future prospects. Dearie me.

"to finally get Trump to wear a mask in public"

Oh masks are good this week? It seems only recently that masks were useless. But then Trump didn't wear them and suddenly they became a requirement. Now that he is wearing them, how long before the TDS crowd decides that they are useless again? Remember when Trump was promoting HCQ and the usual suspects told us it was dangerous. You don't hear so much about it now that Trump was proven correct.

Hilariously Boris Johnson, who is immune and also no longer contagious, still wears a mask. Just to calm the fears of the myriad chicken littles I suspect.

'Yeah, being forced to stay home with the kids is totally the same as loosing a business you've built for over 30 years along with the accompanying livelihood and future prospects. Dearie me.'

summed up socialist and abc thinking Mhaze. The abc is feeling the pain of not having an increase to their billion dollar plus budget for the next couple of years. Would be funny if not so sickening.

Bit pressed for time but this was revealing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q3PSISAZL8

Altrav, I would say you are incorrect. The greatest plagues in history including the Spanish Flu did not infect "everybody". Thats why the practise of "quarantine" was invented. I know adults whom have never contracted any flu in their lifetime.

As Scott Morrison proclaimed: "We're all Melburnians!"

Of course that was a few days prior to the start of Victoria's second wave of the WuFlu.

Talk about putting his foot in his mouth AGAIN.

Chairman Dan going to invite people to any more regressive demonstrations?

jimmy2shoes,

I'm sorry you have me at a disadvantage.
I have gone back over my postings and I can't find where I said the passage you have highlighted.
If you can recall where it came from, I would like to clarify, or correct it, if I can.
Thank you in advance.

Altrav you posted that comment on 11 July 2020 1:46:26 PM.
Mr O, you arent the first person to wish me ill health or worse and you undoubtedly wont be the last. Im still here.

jimmy2shoes,

I never wished you ill health or worse. I'm not that sort of person, it's not in my nature.

If you are feeling unwell I suggest having a talk to Foxy. She might be able to give you some dietary advice that will make you feel better about yourself.

jimmy2shoes,

I couldn't find the posting you refer to, but I think that Mr O has come to the rescue and claimed ownership of it.
Phew, had me worried for a second, I thought I was loosing it as I could not find or figure out what you were referring to.

Appears both Altrav and Mr O have failing memories
"
immy2shoes, I can understand your reasoning, but unfortunately had they not come up with an anti-biotic or as you say, modern medicines, the death toll would have been much higher, as it will be here as well, till they find a vaccine or a new medicine to stop this one too.
I concur with your account of quarantine and face masks, as I said in my posting.
But my overarching point is that, even with all the precautions, without the vaccine, those people who are susceptible to the virus would eventually die, unless they remained isolated until the threat and the carriers had ALL died, including and especially the infected people.
But the problem does not stop there, because they have now found that even though you do not test positive you are still a carrier, and therefore can still infect, and even suddenly fall ill yourself.
So we have these "sleepers" who are still a threat.
What do we do about them, because while they are allowed to move freely amongst the people, the threat is still there, and could break out all over again at any time down the line at some point, without notice or warning?
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 11 July 2020 1:46:26 PM"

jimmy2shoes,

don't get me wrong, I wrote that and yes it therefore is my posting, BUT, I honestly can't see where I erred.
I hate to be a bother, but could you explain so I can either see the problem and correct it or if not then I may be given the chance to clarify.

a couple of months ago Fauci was saying masks were unnecessary for the general public and could possibly help to spread the virus. You make make this stuff up. Oh that's right they do. Just look at our lockdown to flatten the curve. Then the power went to Premiers head and somehow now its about eradication. Trust the 'experts' if you are a public servant. No amount of competence will cost you your job at least now. To bad if you spent years building a business only to be ruined by clowns.

Runner,

You know very well that four months or so ago, Fauci suggested that one option in combatting the virus might not require the general use of masks, but it might. He was proven right that, yes, they really are required.

If you are really a Christian, why do feel the need to lie about a decent man ?

Joe

LOUDmouth,

Please don't insult runner by calling him a Christian.

He is a Christian Fundamentalist, which is a lot better than being a Christian.

Joe

I suggest you watch this

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNtabe/videos/255608468973402

I am not holding my breath for an apology. You could at least point out where I lied but I suspect I wont hear back.

Altrav, I understand you are using the Trump method of diversion, unfortunately for you I already have a used car. Try being a man and owning your statements.

jimmy2shoes,

what are you saying?
I have already admitted that it is my posting and that I wrote it, I'll even admit to being a bit thick, because I have read it again, and I honestly can't see where I have erred or what you are eluding to.
So, please could you elaborate and point me towards what it is that has gotten your attention.
As to the reference of Trump and his method of diversion, or selling you a used car, I have no idea what you are getting at.
I am not familiar with sarcasm and innuendo, so if you don't mind I would appreciate a clear explanation as to what it is that I have said that you don't like.
As I said above, I have already admitted writing the post, so all I need to know now is what I did/said wrong.
Thank you.