This is a list of the causes for the fall of the Roman Empire:

Open Borders
Corrupt Politicians
Loss Of Common Language
The Welfare State
Violent Entertainment
Decline Of Morality
Decline In Fertility Rate
Rise In Pedophilia
Unchecked Debauchery
Class Warfare
Unbearable Taxation
Outsourcing
Exploding Debt
Money Devaluation
Military Cuts
Terrorist Attacks

Not all of these weaknesses apply to Australia and the rest of the West, but more do than don't, and we have the added burden of neo-Marxist white-anting; the spurning of cheap energy; same sex marriage; same sex parenting; transgenderism; abortion; dumbded-down education; globalisation and consequent high unemployment; mass immigration, and multiculturalism.

We are a freak show.

ttbn,
Welcome to what the Insipid insist is Democracy !

I wish I could disagree ttbn. The marxist have brainwashed so many kids its hard to see things turning.

Your a very strange man and I thank you "master Jack" aka ttbn...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A0WvXpyufT8

"It's all very interesting the way you describe...."

When I saw that list a few days ago I thought it was rubbish. It doesn't become more believable with repetition. To believe that these things played a part in the fall of Rome is to simply demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the history.

That most of these things were present at the time of the fall (and when was that?) is neither here nor there. Because all of these things were also present during the various peaks in Roman power.

For example ..."class warfare". Yes it existed during the decline phase. But it also existed during all those times when Rome was at its strongest.

"Loss of a common language" is laughable. There was never a common language in the empire. There was an imperial language (Latin) but each region maintained its native language all through the peaks and troughs of Roman power.

Just one more...."Corrupt politicians". Rome was probably at its most powerful in the period 146BC to 66AD. Yet this was also the period when there was political corruption on an epic scale.

Its a good idea to try to learn from the past and how it applies to the present. But its an even better idea to first understand the past.

ttbn,
Where did you get that list from?

It's nowhere near as comprehensive (or contradictory) as the full 210 reason version:
http://courses.washington.edu/rome250/gallery/ROME%20250/210%20Reasons.htm
...but I notice that your list includes a few reasons that aren't in the 210.

I think your list is a fake; things people (often wrongly) blame for the decline of contemporary civilisation, misapplied to the Roman Empire.

For example: open borders tended to be the norm in ancient times. Cities were often walled, but rarely entire countries. The Roman Empire was an exception, with walls along the Scottish and Danish borders.

Well, this is good: I wouldn't like to live under the rule of the Roman Empire!

" Cities were often walled, but rarely entire countries."

In fact NEVER entire countries. The only way to stop people coming into your country was to ensure that they got such a thrashing for doing so that they wouldn't do it for a generation or three. And if you couldn't give such a thrashing then they'd just keep coming. In the end that's what happened to the western empire - they stopped being able to discourage incursions into the empire.

"with walls along the Scottish and Danish borders."
Danish borders? I'm not saying its not true but I'm unaware of such a wall. More information please Aidan.

So, some people ar more concerned about the accuracy of the Roman Empire list than they are in our own list and where we are headed. Par for the course. Anything to to avoid having a good look at your society and yourselves. The Romans had the same attitude and used the same avoidance techniques.

I am not sure if the Romans killed their unborn like we so today. Certainly the homosexual lifestyle seemed to be shoved down people's throats like today. If you can't 'celebrate' it you are considered a bigot, hater, etc etc

Always amuses me that some of those practicing the lifestyle shove it down everyone's throat and then complains about any pushback.

ttbn,

It was your list. You used the Roman list to give your's a veneer of scholarship and are now pissed off that that veneer is very transparent.

If you didn't want the Roman list to be the centre-piece of your assertions then you shouldn't have used it.

Yes, the West has its problems. But it remains the greatest civilisation to have ever existed and it remains by far the strongest societal system in the world today.

I notice one of your laments is the white-anting of the civilisation. Mr Pot let me introduce your to Mr Kettle.

mhaze,
I've checked and found I was wrong - the Roman Empire didn't extend to the Danish border; the border fortifications there were more recent.

However the Roman Empire did have other fortified borders, in Europe, Africa and Arabia.

mhaze,

You clearly don't know much about writing and introducing topics. The death of one of the most successful and extremely sophisticated civilisations of its time is compared with a modern, successful and sophisticated civilisation, which also thinks that it is the ant's pants and indestructible - just as the Roman Empire thought it was. What has happened historically can, and does, recur. I contend that, if we don't smarten up - stop kidding ourselves that everything is wonderful, and that we can just keep doing what we are doing - then we will go down, just like Rome and other ancient civilisations who were once at the top of their game: a position we are already losing.

Merely saying that the West is stuffed because of this and that is less convincing than using examples of what has happened in the past to similar civilisations (as opposed to the savages improved by Rome, Greece etc.)

You think that the list (not my list BTW) of Roman failings is "rubbish" - without saying why. You then presume know more than I do - again, without saying why. You merely make unfounded assertions.

In your second post, you accuse me of using " … the Roman list to give your's a veneer of scholarship and are now pissed off that that veneer is very transparent".

I'm not "pissed off", and your choice of language is hardly "scholarly". And, I don't see how your mere disagreement has revealed any transparency. I accept that you disagree with me, but nothing you have said proves me wrong. Perhaps you would like to try again, and demonstrate the scholarship you accuse me of not having. As things stand, you have just expressed opinions, with which I obviously disagree. I stand by my original post 100 percent

ttbn,
If it's not your list, why are you still falling to provide any attribution?

As for why it's rubbish or fraudulent, take another look at it:
>Open Borders
My previous point stands despite my Danish error.

>Corrupt Politicians
Politicians or officials? The emperors had long since taken away most of the control of the former.

>Loss Of Common Language
I presume you mean Greek? How much did its use decline, and what replaced it?

>The Welfare State
Bread and circuses do not a welfare state make!

>Violent Entertainment
Something common throughout the reign of the emperors - could something lasting that long really be responsible for the fall?

>Decline Of Morality
It's in the 210, but is it credible? Didn't Christianity improve the Roman Empire's morality in its later years?

>Decline In Fertility Rate
This one's credible.

>Rise In Pedophilia
Any evidence of a rise in late Roman times?

>Unchecked Debauchery
There'd always been debauchery. To some extent it was checked by Christianity.

Do I need to go on? And if so, can you tell me what outsourcing your list refers to?

We are a freak show.
ttbn,
Yes and, a lot & I mean a lot of people are scurrying to buy tickets ! The fact that some here are disputing your list is proof that you're right !

individual,

Perhaps we should include the Helpline in posts for the benefit of the handful of people who are upset by anything that is not socialist muck or in line with their own thinking; those with fragile egos, and those so bound up in themselves who would benefit from a dose of liver salts or a good laxative?

If you want a cohesive society all must agree on the rules. In Australia today we have a least three systems of justice, though only one claims to be official.

There is a strong educational input from those that want total social control of everyone, taking us back to a type of feudalism, where we all work for the State, as virtual slaves to the overlords. Where all property is owned by the State. The State provides us with all our needs.

Defectors, and the unwanted put to death as they do not contribute to the State. A large proportion of the young are more and more wanting to be employed by the State and looked after by the State. Poll taken in America of 18 and under 39 year old in America dream of a socialist State, though they do not understand it is communism.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/10/america-socialism-capitalism-poll-axios

http://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-young-americans-embracing-socialism-b051907a-87a8-4f61-9e6e-0db75f7edc4a.html

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/socialism-booming-popularity-among-young-people-survey-finds/11655582

Josephus,
>Poll taken in America of 18 and under 39 year old in America dream of a socialist State,
>though they do not understand it is communism.
Have you considered the possibility that they understand it ISN'T communism?
Can you name even one bad aspect of communism that no socialist state could do without?

Aiden, The young believe capitalism is the reason the Earth is being destroyed. They believe all resources should be managed by the State, including people. That there should no ownership of property that it belongs to the State, and is managed by the State.

Josephus,
Have you any evidence for those outlandish claims?

Aidan,
Josephus is right or don't you look outside your home during the week ?

ttbn,

Just a bit of fisking:

+"You think that the list (not my list BTW)"

I know that. My very first line on the thread was "When I saw that list a few days ago I thought it was rubbish.". I probably first saw it where you did.

+"less convincing than using examples of what has happened in the past to similar civilisations "

Perhaps. But the point is the examples given were basically wrong and were concocted to demonstrate claims about the current world rather than the ancient world.

+ " You merely make unfounded assertions."

I offered several examples where the list was faulty. I could have gone on but didn't want to embarrass you any further.
Your claim about me making unfounded assertions is unfounded. :)

The real problem here is that you misunderstand the nature of a civilisation. The fall of the Western Roman Empire didn't signal the end of Western Civilisation. It continued because the conquers of Rome adopted that essences of 'The West'. Just as, having conquered Greece, Rome adopted much of the Greek thinking, (the old adage that Rome conquered Athens and then Athens conquered Rome), the Franks, Vandals, Visgoths etc were so inured in Roman thought that it persisted despite the death of Romulus Augustus.
'The West', invented in the Greek polis, survived the fall of Hellas to Macedon, the fall of the various Hellene empires to Rome, and the fall of Rome. It was saved a Tours, was reinvigorated by Venice, and then Protestantism, and then by the English. Empires rose and fell but 'the West' persisted.

Sometimes the fall of empires does cause the fall of civilisations eg Carthage, Egypt after Augustus, Persia after Darius III, the Incas, the Aztecs. But the fall of Rome as an imperial project was merely part of a continuum.

Aidan,

Re the walls in Denmark. I'm not having a go here - just genuinely interested to see if you have some information that I haven't come across before.

I'm wondering whether you're talking about the Limes Germanicus or was there a wall further north than that?

Two major factors in the fall of the Roman Western Empire have not
been mentioned.
The first is the onset of the cold period between the Roman warming
and the Medieval warming.
The second cause was the depredations of the of the Arab pirates/slavetraders.
Their attacks on Roman shipping forced their trade onto more
expensive road transport.
The Arab slavers captured approximately one million Europeans even as
far away as the south coast of Britain and Iceland on one occasion.
Blondes had a premium price in Arab markets.

dont agree, the west will long exist ansd continue to lead the world in terms of the best example of how a society should organise and operate

i will give reasons in upcoming opinion piece, should it be published on OLO

mhaze,
As I said, I was wrong. Probably due to misunderstanding something I saw on TV, I thought the Danevirke was originally a Roman frontier. But it wasn't - the Romans traded with the Danes by sea, but had no land border.

__________________________________________________________________________

Bazz,
> The Arab slavers captured approximately one million Europeans
Wasn't that all after the fall of Rome?

__________________________________________________________________________

individual,
I lack the telepathic ability to tell what young people are thinking just by looking outside my home during the week.
'Tis a pity you haven't realised that so do you!

oops sorry Aidan. Missed your earlier post.

Actually that makes me feel better. I've studied extensively on the Roman northern borders and was a little concerned I'd missed something as vital as a wall fortification.

Yes Rome built fortification all around the empire where they thought it appropriate and efficacious. Given that they were surrounded by vast numbers of people who were technologically and materially poorer than themselves, they were constantly assailed by one or other border tribe. From Brennus in the early 4th century BC through to Attlia 8 centuries later, Rome was constantly fending off invaders.

They tried many methods, one of which was walled fortifications. In the end, nothing will stop a determined invader from crossing the border. The only hope is to severely maul them in battle so as to discourage invasion. Even things like the genocide visited on the Dacians was only partially successful.

Western Rome fell when their military and technological advantages disappeared.

"...the west will long exist ansd continue to lead the world in terms of the best example of how a society should organise and operate
Posted by Chris Lewis, Friday, 21 February 2020 10:25:43 AM"

Rome and the other extinct civilisations would have thought the same thing.

Democracy for Sale:

I think it should be government sanctioned, for a citizen to sell their vote to the highest bidder.
This is standard procedure in PNG as one of many examples.

This move would allow political corruption to be benificial all the way from the top to the bottom.

I'd put a value of say $2.500 on my federal vote. $2.000 for State and say $1.500 for local elections.

Currently I tear my voting slips up at the polling station.

This move would be a great advance to me personally, allowing me to stimulate the economy, and improve the quality of say, a holiday away from the stress of retirement.

Dan

I lack the telepathic ability to tell what young people are thinking
Aidan,
There are many young intelligent & decent people & I know how they think. Decently !
Sadly, there are many, many more young who were denied the ability to think by those who are now running institutions & are generally in charge of the show !
Once these vermin are removed from the swamp, this new wave of young adults will start sorting out the intolerable mess the past three generation created !
The West will rejuvenate now that the east has done its dash !

I'd like to share a story.

Several weeks back a family member went to buy some trailers, and I went along with them to pick them up.

They got 2 trailers;
1/ A Dual Axle 8 x 5 with a 900mm Cage and a Canvas Cover (Fully Enclosed)
2/ A Single Axle 7 x 5 Tipper Trailer with a 600mm cage

Both included 14" spare wheels and 12mths rego - Total Price $5000 both

Some observations when we went to pick them up:

The company SEEMED like it may have once been an Australian company, that had maybe fallen on hard times and was taken over by Chinese owners.
(This is an assumption - I may be mistaken)

But what I got to thinking about here was that Aussies can't compete.
Where an Australian business owner might fail doing the best he can with what he has here in Australia, a Chinese business owner can succeed through their language and business contacts back in China.

I've been thinking over this for the past few weeks, and if you think about it it's like a complete fire sale of everything we have at pennies on the pound.

We can't win.

Our businesses fail, get sold for nothing when they're no longer profitable here;
Get Chinese owners and the company is instantly profitable and revitalised.

Profitable business opportunities everywhere if you're Chinese;
The dole queue awaits if your an Aussie in any kind of manufacturing.
The Chinese will take all you've built for a handful of shrapnel.

I hate to sound racist, or imply resentment towards foreigners;
I'm simply just stating a business fact.

If an Aussie bloke and a Chinese bloke are playing poker;
They Chinese bloke's got a leg up to take all the Aussie bloke's chips.

Globalism and free trade gave others an unfair advantage.

We can't win.

[Cont.]

We really are stupid.
We think inviting the Chinese here for education is the way to go.
Boy are we dumb.
Once they get here and are educated, where do you think the first place is they look for business opportunities?

Australia has literally been shooting itself in the head, and we advertise it.
'Come to Australia for a world class education'
We think we're successful because they're all here.

Boy are we dumb, I said that already didn't I.

Australia has been attempting to commit suicide, and we're succeeding.

Anytime you want to remind yourself of the facts
- Just remember the box trailer -

Dear Foreign Communist friends;
We have an entire country here we'd like to give away
Not only are we liquidating all national assets below cost,
- If you'd like to come here for our 'World Class Education' well show you exactly how to do it.
Unlimited Business Opportunities await.

AC
The same tune was played back in the late seventies, calling-out the Japanese for exactly the same crime.
Yapoon bombing comes to mind.
Within a fairly short time they became totally insignificant.

Wonder will Chinese follow the same path?

Further Thoughts on Vote Selling.
I'd like to have the opportunity to list my vote for sale on EBay, and auction it off in a business sense,
Payment through the PayPal facility.

The problem as I see it with this "democratic" (sic) system, is its cut-off point at the political level for the benifits of corruption to be the windfall it is. It defines our lack of power over the everyday implications of survival in life.

Ttbn observes it well, when he complains of our lack of power over who we actually vote for. The little recognised rip-off part, where we are expected to vote for some nondescript representative selected by the political cabal for purposes and reasons entirely of their own.
It's the level of rip-off which is invisible to most.

Dan

"Globalism and free trade gave others an unfair advantage.

We can't win." (Armchair Critic)

True. And it's the same throughout the West. It didn't have to be like that, but our dipstick politicians handed manufacturing and jobs over to the Third World at the Lima Convention. We were going to replace what we chucked away by being smarter. But smart people wouldn't have gone global and shot themselves in the foot, as they did, and we are still going down, down, down. We are not smart.

And, Dan. The Chinese ascendancy is nothing like the Japanese boom after the war. The Japanese are more western than they are Asian, and they are now suffering the same fate as we are. We are not dealing with a country called China, we are dealing with the Chinese Communist Party, which our 'smart' people are allowing to take us over by osmosis, along with South China Sea trade and Pacific Islands right on our doorstep

On the dumbing-down-of-education element contributing to the death of the West, it was announced today that in the Australian part of the West, at least, 1 in 2 aspiring teachers are failing to finish their 3 year degree inside 6 years. This, no doubt, is due to the fact that candidates with university entry scores lower than 50 are being allowed to enrol.

Wonder will Chinese follow the same path?
diver dan,
They're trying but the Corona Virus has but a dent into their ambitions !
Let's bring up all these Pacific "Nations" that put Australia on the spot by suggesting they'll go to China for aid if Australia is bowing to their demands. Ok ! Now's is the time to call their bluff ! Morrison, Albanese are you there ?

typo, should be... isn't bowing...

"Morrison, Albanese are you there ?"

Forget Albo. The Opposition just opposes, and those clowns are going to the next election with the same, if not sillier, emissions blah that lost them the last election.

Morrison, it must be said, is a disappointment. Dutton is the PM we should have had. Morrison is not entirely a dead loss (but that could just if he is compared with Turnbull), but he is just treading water. He didn't expect to be PM, and he doesn't really stand for anything. He should invite Donald Trump over to give him some lessons on how to be a real leader.

I think, with a bit of luck the West might have just gotten a second lease on life in the past few weeks !
I only hope people appreciate it & behave accordingly!

Today on Sky News: student teachers struggle with basic literary and numerical skills.

'Today on Sky News: student teachers struggle with basic literary and numerical skills.'

no doubt the ones who join the teachers unions and encourage climate emergency tantrums after watching Al Gore's lies.

teachers struggle with basic literary
Yes, just wait till they take their phones off them ! They won't be able to even order a big Mac !

Hey runner,
I heard one of the questions many struggle with is they don't know how many weeks are in a year.

" student teachers struggle with basic literary and numerical skills."

Another beat-up. No actual figures offered. An unsupported anecdote that one (ONE) student didn't know how many weeks in a year.

No data. All based on CLAIMS from tutoring groups who just got a bunch of free advertising!! Potential motive for the beat-up?

Talking of literacy skills - "basic literary"(sic).

Strange thought that just popped into my head:

Has the United Nations helped all our nations become Disunited Nations?

Look at the bigger picture.
United nations my butt.