http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/as-trade-truce-looms-china-s-key-manufacturing-sector-starts-to-lift-20191202-p53g0q.html
Donald Trump had good reason to adress the trade balance betwwen America and China
Just as the British Empire did in its Colonialist days, or America its self post WW2 gains, of parts of those colonies
China too wants it share, and a bit more
Methods Trump has used seem more likely to harm us all than stall the Dragons advance
This country must soon, balance the importance of our trade with China and the uncertainty that country leaves us with
Is trade its only intended path to world power,or are we watching what may become far more than we would like?

Dear Belly,

A local North Shore (Sydney) Chinese woman was overheard saying to a friend: 'Aren't the Australians dumb?' inferring that we are stupid to let the Chinese walk in en masse and take control of all our real estate and businesses.

And now they are starting to take control of out polity. How many Nick Zhaos and Gladys Lius is it going to take before Australia wakes up to the intentions of the Chinese Communist Party? And I don't think this is all being orchestrated only from Beijing. Someone in Australia, and I think someone who may not be Chinese, is pulling a few strings as well to get Chinese into the Australian political system. As one Liberal Party politician apparently once said: politics is where the money.

Not only trade needs balancing , do does the buying of land & facilities. How many Australians own land in China ? How many Australians are now Chinese citizens ?

Stop talking China. Our politicians dealing directly with the Chinese Communist Party, which runs everything. And that is really disgusting and treacherous. Australian politicians can take CCP money, be exposed, but still remain in our Parliament. I'm absolutely sure Chinese living in Australia think that we are dumb. They are right - we, or at least our politicians - are very, very dumb.

It would be good if we first understood former colonial countrys and their actions
Start with the British isles, look at the death toll in the salt tax issue, know it is the tip of an iceberg
Then France the list is long
Purely being racist towards China is to ignore the truth
Yes they are our trading partner, we do 30 percent of our trading with them
From time to time they remind us, by cutting or stalling sections of our trade as we saw happen to coal and iron ore briefly
And yes like every power before them ,they are building Islands in the Pacific, and lending morey world wide, to? I think for a financial style of colonization
We must be very careful but too, as all colonies once did,be respectful
Sheer numbers tell us only a Nuclear war has any chance of beating today's China
Just maybe that Tiananmen square butchery,and the on going determination of those Hong Kong folk can tell us not all Chinese are followers of the Communist party, but do not bank on them winning
China is strengthened by its not needing it people to agree with its actions

Thanks for the links, frankly find reason to hope in them
But has that mass murder in that square been forgotten?
China cares little for its own people
In numbers alone it is a threat
If trade is first off the rank will another threat follow?
Is our desperate need to trade with China worth getting on our knees?

Belly,

That's what I've been on about, that like it or not, China - by rejecting democracy with all its imperfections - is inevitably moving towards becoming a huge fascist power. Its 'socialism' didn't work in the period up to about 1980, the great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were disastrous flops, certainly for the economy, so its economic policies had to move towards more of a state-controlled sort of capitalist socialism, if such a monster is possible.

But with rigid control of the population, central planning sometimes 'works', it attains some of its goals but at huge human costs, as state control of the population becomes more repressive - of course, in the interests of the people, i.e. the Party, i.e. the Central Committee, i.e. the king-pin, currently Xi Jin Ping.

I wonder if, in any Marxist socialist state (and we've had hundreds of years of combined experience now), there has ever been a single worker or peasant who attained high position - in the plethora of workers' and peasants' states, and how many instead ended up in the gulags and laogais. [Which begs the question about one-world government: where would you put the gulags ?]

Once any form of socialist state abandons its links to democratic values, it seems to degenerate over time to something resembling fascism. Sometimes not so slowly either - witness Pol Pot's Kampuchea. So perhaps Hayek (in his "The Road To Serfdom") was on the money - you either push for democracy or ultimately surrender to totalitarianism. But democracy has all sorts of imperfections, wrinkles, and is always unfinished by definition. I fear that many young people are too impatient to work through those inevitable problems (and not just young people) and clamour for something more 'certain', more 'perfect'.

Joe

Loudmouth you put my view, I think the same
And in my view trade is going to be used as a weapon, as is the loans to third world countrys
A fact in my view is China like the Japan of the 1930,s has a plan
We only have to look at its current forcing its people in to acting very much as told
Then its Muslim minority being brainwashed [some here will see nothing wrong with that]
China has us and some other parts of the world in a corner trade can and will be, used as a weapon, while interfering internally in our country and others

Do you hear the people sing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF64wzIyBOU

http://www.breitbart.com/asia/2019/12/02/protesters-within-china-defy-communists-just-like-you-hong-kong/

I know you won't want to hear and and you most definitely won't want to believe it....but none of this happens without Trump.

Maybe the communists will turn the tanks on them again but what we do know is that they are mad as hell....
http://youtu.be/WINDtlPXmmE?t=71

SMH this day, remember that Chinese Liberal who stood against a Labor Chinese candidate and won?
Remember her signs made to look like official electoral commision signs
She donated one hundred thousand dollars to her campaign
And WANTS IT BACK!
Nothing to see here all ok dirty money flowing to BOTH sides of politics to buy influence is quite all right or is it?

If anyone is wondering if China is a threat to Australia then I suggest you ask the people of Hong Kong.

Belly,

While there is no doubt that China is a new rising world power and is demanding the respect and influence that goes with this, the duality of this while claiming "developing" nation status for trade concessions put in place for the poorest nations in the world is blatantly duplicitous, and has been point of contention dating back to the Clinton Presidency.

That China is perfectly happy to ignore all international laws when it suits them is redolent of the bully boy tactics of pre WW2 Germany and is likely to continue unless challenged.

The failure of the Chinese to concede might be because they anticipate a change in the US goverment, however, the democrats seem to share Trump's antipathy towards China and are unlikely to fold.

Shadow Minister agreed, but unlike Japan China if war is its wanted out come, need not attack without warning, America, until well after Trump is a weaker country than it once was
No honest review of that country would not see its determination to fill a much larger roll

Belly,

'role'.

'drivel'.

Loudmouth so very glad!
My lack of formal education has given you a free shot
Follow me you will find evidence of it often
Never the less the thread staggers and it may come to life in reality long before we want it too
Let's wrap it up it has become a yawn in any case

"While there is no doubt that China is a new rising world power"

Some of the links I've given in this thread are to show that the confidence that China is rising to challenge the US is perhaps misplaced.

I'm old enough to remember when Japan was going to replace the US. And the Soviets. And the EU.

We were told back when Keating was around that the 21st century belonged to China. And indeed up until 2017 the US considered its main job was to try to make the hand-over to China as painless was possible.

But there were other voices. For example the peerless Mark Steyn said wayback that China would become old before it became rich. That is that its one-child idiocy would lead to them having a gigantic retired demographic without the wealth to pay for it.

Since Trump, China's free ride is coming to an end and their economy is suffering from it. They desperately want and need an end to the pressure from the US but the only way to get out from under is to agree to no longer steal intellectual property, follow copyright, stop currency and trade manipulation and all the other cheats that they need to keep their economy chugging.

Give up those and they can't compete. So a rock and a hard place. Either way, at the very least the forecast Chinese take-over has been significantly delayed. If Trump gets another 4 years and continues the pressure, China is in real trouble. The only problem is that dictatorships in trouble have a tendency to lash-out in one final desperate attempt to save themselves. But they are no where near being able to challenge the US militarily for another 20 or so years and probably longer if they can't steal US know-how.

We made a terrible mistake putting all our eggs in the China basket.

Its time to pivot to India...yesterday.

mhaze if only, right now, know it is not in your DNA to agree Donald has weakened the west
Those sharing a giggle at the UN meeting underline Trump has been good for China, Russia too for that matter
Saw the links told you I liked them but could post much the same about America or any country
We need to watch the China that confronts us not one we hope it will become

Mhaze,

Yes, China may become old but it will also become rapidly more educated, relying less on comparatively backward agricultural and industrial technologies, and do away with its low-yielding (and increasingly high-cost and low-returns) industries like manufacturing - sending them overseas to Vietnam and Indonesia and eventually Africa, while its own population moves up the occupational ladder, into financial and cyber services, etc. on a massive scale.

So its military and economy will keep growing in power, even once its population stabilises in the next couple of decades, and then starts to decline. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised (if i live that long) if its military becomes one of the most high-tech and sophisticated in the world by 2030, relying on hi-tech and not on manpower. I can understand (I think), and even support, what Trump is doing, but that may simply accelerate all of these processes.

Yes, I don't understand why we aren't focussing far more on contributing to the building of India. And that will probably mean building a huge nuclear-power sector, so that all Indians have the electricity supplies and amenities that we all take for granted.

Cheers,

Joe

Still think the thread never quite hit the sweet spot, that few want any part of it and that we are a bit *she will be right mate*
China [as my words teacher says] is not the one colonised by just about every one [who by the way introduced the Opium trade there]
They are a world power , one not known for its positive human rights policy
And we are wedged between our needed trade and an ever more hostile Pacific Ocean

Dear Belly,

I totally concur with you about the threat China poses to Australia. Ever since I joined The Forum I have been raising my concerns but people are not interested to discuss it.

I would like to have been a fly on the wall when ScuMo and his mates notched out a secret deal with Jacqui Lambie this week. I know she feels the same way about China as you and I do so there's something going on behind closed doors for Lambie to back down and buddy up with ScuMo.

Gladys Liu is still suspect, with another report yesterday that she advocated for a Beijing-backed company (which means Chinese Communist Party backed) and Liberal Party donor now embroiled in a serious criminal probe.

Liu should be stood down and investigated thoroughly. Morrison's mindless support of her just because she is one of his is not acceptable.

" Donald has weakened the west"

Belly, you keep making that claim but never, NEVER, offer any proof or evidence of it. Sure there were leaders at NATO behaving like little school-girls gossiping about Trump t'other day. But that was after they'd all meekly agreed to his demands. Demands which the NATO leadership have said immeasurably strengthens NATO.

China's economy is suffering. Riots in Iran. the Norks cowed. Mexico agreeing to stop immigrant invaders. Russian economy in disarray because of the oil price. the US now energy independent and the leading energy provider on the planet.

But in your fantasies he's weakened the west. But Belly, they are just fantasies. Just because you want it to be true, doesn't make it so.

LM,

Who knows. You might be right. China might win out. But I don't think so.

Yes they have a lot of people being educated. But half the country remains ill-educated farmers or factory fodder. And the first thing the educated class learns is obedience to the party.

As we learned in every other totalitarian regime, innovation is absent. China isn't moving jobs to other countries, they are being moved because conditions in China no longer favour manufacturing because of the tariffs and government interference.

I'm old enough to remember all those other countries which the oh-so-smart elite decided were about to displace the great Satan. But each one fell by the wayside. My guess is that China will join that list. And it won't be pretty.

(Unless of course they can buy themselves a nice friendly US president eg Biden).

mhaze let me be honest you not me are part of the problem, you support a man who clearly is a fraud
By this time next year [he may not run again] the world will be flooded with insider information about him
Feel sorry for you, true, your defense of him based on what?
Tells me more about you
Interested in some shares?have a few left in the Sydney Opera house

Let me just translate for Belly.
What he's saying here is that he has zero, nada, nix,no evidence that Trump is weakening the west even though he relentlessly makes that absurd claim.

"[he may not run again] "

Oh so that's your latest prediction for the demise of Trump?

Well we all better take that very seriously given how accurate all your other predictions about Trump have been. By the way, didn't you tell us earlier this year that Trump was going to be gone by the end of the year? But that OK Belly, just make new predictions and pretend that all the previous failed ones never happened.

Trying to be kind mhaze see my view of you on this matter is best kept to myself
Know by your history you served this country and have been around
May I ? what say we get the nursing home to put wheels on that chair
Sitting all day consuming that FOX SKY fake news is not good for you old mate

http://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/05/politics/fact-check-trump-two-weeks-november-december/index.html
mhaze here is some reading rare but useful
Known as the truth it will not make you happy but the read is truly worth it

ok we do not want to talk about it but I offer Trump's impeachment, [not in the senate] AS evidence he has issues
But far worse China Russia Saudi Arabia HAVE been strengthened by his time as POTUS

Dear Belly,

I'm interested to see what charges Congress will be bringing against Trump.

He definitely is the weirdest president in US history. Maybe the lesson to be learnt is that Americans should establish minimum standards for presidential candidates. But I guess that would undermine the democratic idea that every citizen can be a president.

And in Australia we have our own problem, with ScuMo starting to show his aspirations of becoming the country's first dictator. I think he's started maneuvering the police to suit his objectives; so how much longer before he starts manipulating the military as well?

Belly links to a CNN article which finds all these lies told by Trump (CNN, really!! The network that has lost 2/3rds of it audience because of the lies it tells.)

Lets have a look at these lies...."Trump exaggerated slightly. Army 1st Lt. Clint Lorance had served six years of a 19-year murder sentence before Trump pardoned him in November, so he had 13 years to go, not 16 years."

He said 16 instead of 13. Oh my God! No wonder they are impeaching.
Seriously, these people are overwhelmed by Trump Derangement Syndrome.

"China Russia Saudi Arabia HAVE been strengthened by his time as POTUS"
So you keep saying. But evidence? Not a jot. But if you want it to be true, then for the Bellys of this world, it is.

But I might agree as far as Saudi is concerned. They have become more powerful because they have submitted their policies to the Trump doctrine.

Mr O study the posts of mhaze, he has many very much like him
The world has always had more than its share of mhazes
They grab the next big thing, dump their prejudices on them, and forget truth
Trump right now has only one thing going for him , and it is not honesty
He has the Democrats on his side
three weeks from now he knows, he will have been put through the mill, he will not be impeached his numbers in the senate rule not justice
He has an ego the size of an elephant, and may fake illness may not stand again
But America has become a joke world wide because of him

I gave up on the thread twice so far
We are not truly looking at the implications of this present day China
It is about to be the world biggest economy, it wants more
If China never tries a conventional war to gain its wish, it could do much the same with trade wars
We must understand it, putting our trade before our countrys safety we are working for them not us

Belly,

Trump is trying to stop China from becoming the world's biggest economy and subsequently the world's leading superpower.

I entirely agree with your concerns about China. Napoleon warned the world never to awaken China because he had the foresight to see the consequences.

I believe China is intent on taking over the nations of southeast Asia and Oceania, including Australia. And I believe the Chinese Communist Party has been deliberately sending people it knows it can rely on when circumstances change to make that possible. How many Chinese in Australia are preparing for that day? Quite a lot I imagine, all looking forward to creating a Chinese Australia.

Pauline Hanson is not one of the nation's gifted minds but I think she hit the nail right on the head last week when she said she saw a future Chinese Australia.

I think China is preparing to do what Japan failed to do in the 1930s/1940s.

Belly,

The problem with quoting CNN is that CNN has given up any pretense of being impartial to the extent that while playing to their core democratic base their overall audience has been crashing and largely being taken up by the somewhat less partial Fox news.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2019/04/30/cnn-drops-26-percent-in-prime-time-as-fox-news-dominates-april-cable-ratings/#18798ae13c59

As for Trump weakening the west, that is laughable. At worst he has upset the neo socialist dominium that was developing which was more content to virtue signal than provide any determined resistance to Russia, China or Iran.

SM,

You've got it all wrong. Belly wants it to be true that Trump is weakening the west and all the other grumph he goes on with. There's no evidence for the claim. No examples. No argument. Nothing other than that he wants it to be true. And for Belly that means it is true. He's incapable of seeing beyond that.

The sad part is that Belly is sincere and, I imagine, he thinks that by opposing Trump he's supporting the workers of the US. Because in the black/white world of Belly, Republicans are the equivalent of the Libs, and Democrats = ALP. Of course that's also not true, but Belly won't understand that.

In fact, Trump is the best thing to happen to the US working class in a generation and if Belly really did have the interests of the working class in his heart, he'd be Trump's greatest fan.

But that would require understanding what's really happening rather than living in this fantasy-land of Orange Man Bad.

Shadow Minister MHaze time is very near gentlemen for your serving of humble pie, it will be large
Trump these days looks very grim as his support shrinks and CNN? look at all AMERICAN NEWS ,not just the Murdock version of Gobbles like lies
This next two weeks will do great damage to the misplaced ego/fraud Trump is
AT After Trump watch the ex supporters try to distance themselves
Mr O yes!
Trump has every right even a duty, to fix the balance of trade issue with China
Too address that countrys THEFT of others inventions and property
But his loud mouthed look at me style is childlike, as is he unlike Trump China will still have power in 2021

The real question isn't what we should do as China becomes more powerful but how we should prepare for the possibility that the entire Chinese system unravels....

http://www.theepochtimes.com/the-chinese-communist-regime-is-on-the-brink-of-disintegration-says-leading-china-expert_3167543.html

oh, and Trump is killing them in the trade war...

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/12/the-us-is-in-a-great-position-in-china-trade-deal-thanks-to-president-trump-china-needs-the-deal-while-the-us-wins-either-way/

mhaze wishful thinking can be harmful if it blocks true understanding of a current threat
Folk much like you, here in this country in the 1930,s told us concerns about Japan was just silly
As we exported the scrap iron they would soon send back
Chine is not a country that respects human rights, it is not an honest country, not even a nice one
But it will not be defeated by such as your dreams
In fact, much like Japan, it may use monetary breakdown, as reason to launch a war

Belly,

You are right on the ball when it comes to China.

China wants to carve out a global empire and Xi Jinping is on track to be its first emperor.

There is something in the Chinese way of thinking that makes them want to have an emperor and an empire. Anyone want to offer an explanation?

The Chinese have always seem themselves as being superior to other peoples and their history is full of wanting other peoples and nations to pay homage to their emperor.

Did you know that in the late 13th century AD China invaded what is now Indonesia because it wanted the local kingdoms in the archipelago (principally Java and Sumatra) to submit to Chinese hegemony

Mr O knew that and do you know a book the Japanese love predicts that country will see three world wars lost before it, Japan rules the world
We await mhazes collapse of China at our peril
Politician from both sides have been bribed by them and it will continue

Misopinionated,

Well, no, it would have been the Mongols who tried to invade Java, as they tried to invade northern Vietnam (Tonking) and Japan in the 1280s - all of those efforts failed.

In fact, foreign powers ruled China for much of the last millenium, the Mongols for close on a century, 1271-1368, then after the Ming dynasty, the Manchus, related to the Mongols, for close on three hundred years, 1644 - 1910. That foreign rule may have provided the grievances by the current Chinese leadership to restore its full control, not just of China proper, but other regions like Tibet, Manchuria, and Sinjiang - and any other neighbouring regions which, by the magic of drawing lines on a map, can be claimed by China, the southern seas being the most obvious and most ridiculous claim.

Yes, like all relatively efficient totalitarian regimes, the Chinese authorities will keep pushing their Belt and Road program when it suits, and nibble away at small and powerless states such as those in the Pacific, and when it suits, they will get much more aggressive. They have already had a go at Vietnam - and failed. They imagine that the Manchu invasion of Taiwan in 1683 gives them the right to declare that island to be now part of China. They claim vast areas across Central Asia, even bits of Kashmir.

Yes, they are a huge long-term concern for every country in their region. Any government, including ours, has to work very carefully to assert its independence while engaging with China in trade etc. As south-east and southern Asian countries build their economies, Australia should be fully supportive in building strong and mutually beneficial friendships with those countries.

Joe

Loudmouth,

Please, I definitely do not need a history lecture from someone who is not qualified in history.

Loudmouth you are right we need to be careful and watch what we do and say
My fear is this, even our once responsibility to our north is and always has been a poorly governed place likely to be corrupt, as is the case in Pacific Island countrys currently in debt to China
China even owns a hundred year lease on one of our ports who made a quid out of that
Mr O you know as I do we are in dangerous waters and even with our best efforts sheer numbers put us in danger

Mr O,

You have succinctly managed to combine ignorance and arrogance in one sentence.

No one is an expert in all aspects of history.

Misopinionated,

So your TAFE certificate is in historical environmental sociology ?

Or perhaps you were unaware of the history that I was writing about ? Can you get someone to read it to you and explain it ?

So difficult trying to understand half-wits sometimes :(

Joe

Belly,

China now has a 100-year lease on the Greek port of Piraeus, i.e. Athens.

Joe

Balina, NSW coastal resort some years ago, boat loaded with very rich Chinese snuck in
No one knew until they beached!
They ran all over the place and had pockets full of our 100 dollar notes
They surely had been economic refugees
Anyone want to bet no hidden spy tried that too, on that boat
China is our trading partner but do we sell other than what we export and will they always be willing to pay for what they need
Well maybe! a lot of what they export from here is owned by their country men of government