By their very nature religions are divisive.
They promote the we-versus them notion.
Our God is better, we are more devout,
our leader was the best, we will go to heaven,
you will not, and so on.

Religion is all about believing under fear of
punishment - all the admonitions, divisiveness and
fear that is at the root of religion. That is a
recipe for bigotry and violence.

All it takes is for a person unable to think very
deeply to follow the religion to its letter of law in
order for the religion to be used as an excuse for the
most inhumane and ungodly acts. We've seen this over
and over again throughout the ages.

Is that a fair assessment of religion?

We have to remember that although religion is a
universal social institution it takes a multitude of
forms. Believers may worship gods, ancestors, totems,
they may practice solitary meditation, frenzied rituals,
or solemn prayer. And obviously, religion cannot be
defined in terms of Western religious tradition alone.

We need to also look at the rituals enacted in a
religion that enhance the solidarity of the community
as well as its faith. Do people really believe
as deeply in traditional religion today?

So much to discuss. Your thoughts (not insults) would
be appreciated on this subject. Try to be civil.

You know what you think,and you won't change your mind, no matter what others think. People who ask others what they think apropos of nothing about anything at all are generally interest only expounding their own views and having an argument. Your first paragraph clearly reveals your attitude to religion, and your last clearly indicates that you are expecting the worst - but you still want another opportunity to lecture and harangue anyone who dares to have thoughts different from yours.

You would get more respect you made a statement, rather than pretending that you are interested in discussion

Some form of religion has existed in every society
that we know of. Religious beliefs and practices
are so ancient that they can be traced into
prehistory, perhaps as far back as 100,000 years
ago if not further. Even the primitive Neanderthal
people of that time, it seems, had some concept
of a supernatural realm that lay beyond everyday
reality. Among the fossilized remains of these
cave dwellers, anthropologists have found evidence of
funeral ceremonies in the form of flowers and artifacts
that were buried with the dead, presumably to accompany
them on the journey to an afterlife.

Mr Thwackum, a character in Henry Fielding's novel,
"Tom Jones" declares:

"When I mention religion, I mean the Christian
religion, and not only the Christian religion, but the
Protestant religion; and not only the Protestant
religion, but the Church of England."

Most people are like Mr Thwackum when they mention
religion, they have their own in mind.

I was raised as a Catholic. And although I'm probably not
a "good" Catholic in that I don't go to Church every
Sunday. I still love the rituals enacted in my religion.
rituals such as baptism, Christmas Mass, funerals, to name
just a few. I find that rituals such as these bring people
together to remind them of their common group membership,
to reafirm their traditional values, to maintain prohibitions
and taboos, and to offer comfort in times of crisis,
and in general, to help transmit the cultural heritage from
one generation to another.

I tend to ignore many negatives. When I was growing up what
was being preached from the pulpit was divisive. However,
my parents told me to pay more attention to the teachings
of Christ rather than what was being spoken from the pulpit.
And this I have tried to do - making my experiences more
positive all round. I cannot imagine my life without God
in it.

ttbn,

Yes, I do know what I think.

You don't.

What about contributing something to this discussion?

This is not about venting your spleen.
If you want to do that - start your own discussion -
but please do not try to divert mine.

Thank You.

Dear Foxy,

Sorry, I do not know where to begin, because you just have no clue what religion is.

The social behaviours and institutions which you refer to and criticise are not religion.

Have a nice day.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Please explain.

ttbn,

right again, but don't bother, she's baiting us and I had to take the bait just this once to suggest to you not to get sucked in.
She's looking to once again brag about how many posts she got because her topic was SO interesting. (she thinks)
So the best response is to not respond, that will demonstrate exactly how her topics rate.
Unless her buddies come to her rescue and comment just to spite anyone who dares to put her in her place.
Anyway see you later, in a real and interesting topic.

ALTRAV,

Thank You for promising to stay away from this topic
or for that matter, any topic or discussion that I shall
offer in the future.

I trust that you are a man of your word and will keep
it.

ALTRAV,

Yes mate. She always 'baits', and that's the only reason I made a comment. She and her mate Belly do like to provoke people by questioning them. I suppose it's a break from tormenting small children and pulling the wings off flies.

ttbn,

Now you are seriously trying to provoke.

Go follow your friend and have some
in-depth discussions,

Ah, wait ...

Dear Foxy,

Your opening comments are in some ways correct but generally are a departure from sociological, anthropological and historical perspectives. I get the impression that you have read something of Durkheim. I like to use a Marxist approach to define religion because its philosophies and practices are embodied within historical perspectives and can be defined by politico-economic infrastructures. Religions are not all the same and religious periods are separated by the particular polities that such periods represent. A fascinating topic with an endless array of theories to define it!

Foxy the answer is YES
Every faith tells us it is the only one true faith
Many faiths say it is ok to kill others from different faiths
If we had no God we may well learn to live together\Hurts many but
an honestly held view

Dear Mr Opinion,

The great variety of religious behaviour and belief makes
it very difficult to say exactly what "religion"is. Many
definitions have been offered in the past, but most of the
ones we are familiar with have been biased by ethnocentric
Judeo-Christian ideas about religion. And as we know these
ideas are based on a number of central beliefs:

That there exists one supreme being or God; that God
created the universe and all life and takes a continuing
interest in the creation; that there is a life hereafter;
and that our moral behaviour in this life influences
our fate in the next.

In cross-cultural terms, however, this particular
combination of beliefs is unusual. Many religions do not
recognise a supreme bring, and a number do not believe in
gods at all.

Several religions ignore questions about the origins of
the universe and life, leaving these problems to be dealt
with instead by nonreligious myth.

Many religions assume that the gods take little interest
in human affairs. Some have almost nothing to say about life
after death, and many - perhaps most - do not link our
earthly morality with our fate beyond the grave.

And, obviously, as I stated earlier, religion cannot be
defined in terms of Western religious tradition alone.

What then are its essential features?

You're right Emile Durkheim was one of the first
sociologists to study religion. He pointed out that a single
feature is common to all religions - a sharp distinction
between the sacred and the profane.

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

Not quite correct. This is something that didn't seem to bother the ancients.

cont'd ...

The sacred is anything that is regarded as part of the
supernatural rather than the ordinary world; as such it
inspires awe, reverence and deep respect. Anything can be
considered sacred, a god, a rock, the moon, a king, a
symbol such as a cross. On the other hand, the profane
is anything that is regarded as part of the ordinary rather
than the supernatural world; as such it may be considered
familiar, mundane. Of course the profane too may be embodied
by a rock, the moon, a king, or a symbol. Something becomes
either sacred or profane only when it is socially defined
as such by a community of believers.

Durkheim also observed that a religious community always
approaches the sacred through a ritual - a formal stylized
procedure such as prayer, incantation, or ceremonial
cleansing. Ritual is a necessary part of religion because
the sacred has extraordinary qualities and must be approached
in a carefully prescribed reverential manner.

We can say then, that religion is a system of community
shared beliefs and rituals that are oriented toward some
sacred, supernatural realm.

The phenomenon is of such universal social importance
that it has been, and remains, a major focus of
sociological interest.

I hope to discuss its pros and cons next.

First, we need a definition of religion; any takers?

Dear Foxy,

Best keep it to a few salient points of interest otherwise you will end up throwing ttbn, Hasbeen, individual, Loudmouth, mhaze, etc., into a spin.

Dear Belly,

I can only speak from my own experiences with
religion. Growing up I had strict Irish nuns
(Sisters of Mercy), who were anything but merciful.
They preached the Catechism with a cane. And taught
us to look at "outsiders" with suspicion.

They made a virtue out of faith. Trust and obey - do
not think for yourself. They taught us helplessness -
And whatever happens is God's will.

Inter-marriage was a no, no. And so it went.

Yet despite all that I found my own way and today would
feel that life without my belief would be difficult.
So there you are.

I discarded religion from the day I was born and by eight I was debating the contradictions in religion with adults who thought they were smarter than an eight year old. In fact those adults were smarter than an eight year old; I reckon most of them were as smart as ten year olds.

Master Opinionated,

Other people have religion, faulty beliefs, which they believe with little or no evidence.

And WE have knowledge.

So, Marxism has never been corrupted into a religion ? Something to be believed and obeyed without question ?

I think even Marx would be horribly disillusioned by how his 'materialist' proposals turned out - even in his lifetime, after all, the Paris Commune (1871) didn't inflame workers all over Europe to carry out revolutions as he assumed. After the Berlin Conference in 1884, he would have grieved at how easily the working classes of imperialist countries went along with the overseas ventures of their rulers.

And have any Marxist-inspired revolutions ever gone to plan ? I'm writing as a born-Communist, Stalinist and Maoist, who abandoned all of that thirty or forty years ago, and became a Popperian incrementalist/democrat/liberal/socialist. So, any successful socialist revolutions ?

* Russia: Stalin, the millions starved, the millions shot, the millions in gulags ? And it ended up with Brezhnev and Andropov ?

* Cuba: a family dynasty for sixty years ? As much poverty as ever ?

* China: once an imperial empire, always an imperial empire, it seems. Proof that the drift towards fascism isn't just an authoritarian/ right-wing phenomenon.

* East Germany ? Hungary ? Rumania ? Bulgaria ? Vietnam, a 'socialist' state ? Ho ho ho.

So no successful Marxist revolutions then ? Perhaps all Utopias collapse very quickly, to be replaced by a facade covering a repressive system which, ultimately, doesn't know what to do, except perpetuate itself.

Marxist revolutions were supposed to lift the masses, to bring out the genius of the people. Every Marxist revolution and the dreary regimes which followed, was led by people who grew up in pre-revolutionary times - the first country to appoint a leader born and/or educated AFTER the revolutions was: Gorbachev, in 1985, sixty eight years after the revolution. i.e. after the old guard had reached its biological limits.

Marxism is thus a religion no less flawed than any other. And its gods have failed.

Joe

Dear Foxy,

«Please explain.»

Religion is about coming closer to God.

«By their very nature religions are divisive.
They promote the we-versus them notion.»

Does this kind of behaviour bring us any closer to God?
Both "we" and "them" are God, for there is nothing other than God, so if we feel separated from others, this also separates us from God.

«Our God is better»

Whoever thinks so believes that there is more than one God.
This logical absurdity can only disturb our intellectual discernment when we try to consider which way takes us to God.

«we are more devout,»

Some people are more devout than others, but it is individual and not about external show. What you describe is a social ego attitude.

«our leader was the best»

This is only a social attitude. Religious people want to be led by God and only by God, not by people.

«we will go to heaven,
you will not,»

Desire for pleasures, plus jealousy that others will not share them - these lead one furthest from God!

«Religion is all about believing under fear of
punishment»

Fear is born of selfishness, when one wishes to remain separate from God. One should love God instead, one cannot fear and love at the same time.

«all the admonitions, divisiveness and
fear that is at the root of religion.»

The root of religion is the longing of everything to reunite with God. When one realises their unity with God, one comes to know their limitlessness, hence fear is not a possibility, nor divisiveness which is another form of limitation.

«religion to be used as an excuse for the
most inhumane and ungodly acts.»

A claim to religiosity is not religiosity.
So there are the inhumane and ungodly who wish to LOOK religious, so what? they are not!

«religion is a
universal social institution»

Religion is an individual path to God.
While there can be institutions designed to suport one on their path, such institutions are anything but social. As one comes closer to God, one loses all needs for society.

Shall I continue?

Hi Foxy,

To answer your initial question; " Does religion breed hatred, bigotry, and violence?" Give the clear track record of the main three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam of breeding hatred, bigotry and violence, and not limiting it to just them. It is an interesting question does that truth still apply today. It is my view that on a global bases religion is still an inducement to violent human behaviour as it has ever been. The following link is factual when it comes to answering the question.

http://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/how-should-faith-communities-halt-the-rise-in-religious-violence/

Dear Paul,

Rather than about religion, you speak about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam: the question is, to what extent are these three still religions, or have they in the main instead become social institutions. That some social institutions can breed hatred, bigotry and violence, is nothing new.

---

Dear Belly,

«Every faith tells us it is the only one true faith»

Hinduism does not.

«Many faiths say it is ok to kill others from different faiths»

Possibly, but are those faiths then still religious?
They could perhaps have once originated from a religion, but are they still? Not if they advocate violence!

«If we had no God we may well learn to live together»

We do not HAVE God - we ARE God. It is utter nonsensical to speak of not having God, because then who is the speaker and who are the "we"?

---

Dear Foxy,

«The great variety of religious behaviour and belief makes
it very difficult to say exactly what "religion"is.»

Of course: religious behaviours and beliefs are only expressions of religion, they are not religion itself. To complicate matters further, some behaviours and beliefs that are commonly considered religious are not even so.

I remember growing up as a kid and seeing both the fights and the unity between religions. My grandmother wanted to rescue my father from his beliefs and his religion, (not a bad thing to do regarding some religions out there). As a result though, the tension caused many fights between the two of them. My dad on the other hand his religion had the belief that all mayor religions were from God. Therefore it was something I enjoyed discussing with him as I grew up, even when I went a different path then his religion, I always enjoy talking to him and what's going on in that community, or on religious matters between my faith and his.

As for my grandmother, it should be noted that the fights were not caused out of hatred or bigotry. They were caused out of concern and the tension of convince the other person of their views (both my grandmother and my father tried to make their points even when it got heated and they had to walk away.

My point? Religion does not cause divisiveness or else there would be no good conversations and good relationships between people of different religions. Nonetheless divisiveness does exist in the world and aims as a contributing factor to the hatred, terrorism, and everything else negative that I assume this topic is seeking to talk about. Religion is not the cause of that. It is one element of an identifier between one people and another.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Much like race, nationality, politics, or even those cheering for different sports teams. Each of those I've seen lead into fights as well as see people get along with the other people. However if I would put my finger on it I'd say politics is number one on divisiveness between people, which can lead to the great harms people do. What I mean by that is that minorities in each religion that turn people against each other while others are content to live peacefully with their own beliefs. While on the other hand politics in general is always heated divisive, and by looking at protesters when they go to the streets, can become deeply held acts of violence that is done by anyone who wanted to take part in that protest.

Politics is itself worse then religion, but it's not the cause of negative factors of promoting the we-versus them notion. Our way is better, we are better, our leader was the best, we are in the right, you are not, and so on. Each of those identifies of being we-versus them I see in everyday life everywhere. From working at the same job but working a different shift can cause a constant complaining of "we versus them," same with age different between generations comparing notes of how it was better back then and how disrespectful the younger generations are. (Probably very true, but I've heard this from every generation. From hearing it as a kid to the age my peers say it about kids today.). The truth is the divisiveness nature that can turn rabid can come from anywhere.

(Continued)

(Continued)

What can be done then? Divisiveness exists. No more can you expect everyone to have the same skin color and same culture, then you can expect the social differences to not be identified and create a we versus them situation. This is part of the world we are in. Differences exist. So again what can be done?

First don't get caught up too much in identity politics and strive both for honesty/sincerely/truth, as well as for kindness/having each other's back/justice without malice.

Do these two things and it can be easier to love your neighbor as you love yourself, because of the kindness factor, while at the same time not discarding the need to seek what is true and what isn't which is at the heard of so much injustice and social conflicts.

Then after that a good approach is the willingness to listen when someone is complaining so that at the very least you can be aware of the complaint and see if there is merit. But also recognize when people are constantly looking for division and constantly breaking people apart. Have nothing to do with them while they are like that. Or you may become like them through constant argument with them.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Thank you for your words of wisdom!

What aspects of your religion are malevolent and which aspects are benevolent?

After reading people's ideas about religion I would like to ask all a question: Does religion make sense? Yes or No, and why.

Does religion breed hatred, bigotry, and violence?

I'm not so sure about the breeding part but as sure as Hell religion attracts hypocrites !

Hi Yuyutsu,

I agree with what you say, //or have they in the main instead become social institutions//. Where does the line between the religion and the social institution begin and end. How much influence has the teachings of the religion had on the social institution of the church, for both good and bad. Jesus reportedly said help the poor, is the direct manifestation of that the St Vinnies Society of today, or would have people of good will got together and helped the poor anyway, without the influence of the Jesus religious teachings.

Mr Opinionated,

Of course it does. That doesn't make it true: narratives abound which are patently untrue, at least to a sceptic or non-believer - or a believer in another narrative. The multitudes of narratives compete, even though, to believers, their one-and-only narrative is so obviously the only true one. Take a hint.

Joe

Dear Loudmouth,

So you are one of those who believe religion makes sense.

Can you explain why?

There is certainly a strong hatred for Christianity. Christians are the most persecuted and murdered people in the world, despite the constant claims of victimhood from Muslims.

Thank You to all the contributors thus far.

This discussion is going along nicely - and there have
been so many valid points raised for which I am
grateful.

Sociologist Emile Durkheim was impressed by the fact
that religion is universal in human society, and he
wondered why this was so. His answer was that religion
has a vital function in maintaining the social system
as a whole.

He believed that the origins of religion were social
not supernatural. He pointed ou that whatever their
source, the rituals enacted in any religion enhance
the solidarity of the community as well as its faith.

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier, consider such
religious rituals as baptism, bar mitzvah, weddings,
Sabbath services, Christmas mass, and funerals.

Rituals like these serve to bring people together, to remind
them of their community group membership, to re-affirm
their traditional values, to maintain prohibitions and
taboos, to offer comfort in times of crisis. And, in
general to help transmit the cultural heritage from
one generation to the next.

In fact Durkheim argued, shared religious beliefs and the
rituals that go with them are so important that every
society needs a religion or at least some belief system
that serves the same functions.

Dear Paul,

Institutions for the teaching and support of religion are loosely called "religions", but any institution, including these, deteriorates and decays in time. Buddha for example predicted that his own institution of religion will decay after 500 years. Unfortunately we have no record on how long Jesus predicted his church to last without corruption.

On the northern shore of the Sea of Galilee there is a chapel with a rock embedded in its floor where Jesus told Peter: "on this rock I will build my church". Well I was there and saw with my own eyes that this rock has cracked. This is the nature of time for anything physical.

That said, I don't think it black and white, but "religious" institutions today are a mixed bag - in part religious, in part social. Proportions vary.

Charity was already a religious practice among the Jews at the time of Jesus. It may be that the teachings of Jesus helped in spreading it to other places.

cont'd ...

Having said that - we all know that harbouring slightly
different beliefs or cultures or lifestyles can often
become unacceptable and in some cases dangerous.

If anyone seriously studies history they will learn
that a multitude of wars were fought over religion,
ideologies, politics, or land. That is because
communities or even societies that are hostile to one
another often use religion as an ideological weapon
emphasizing differences in faith in order to justify
conflict.

A nation at war often assumes that its gods are on its
side. The medieval Crusades appear at first to have
been fought purely on religious grounds in which
European Christians were trying to recover the Holy
Land from Muslims. A closer analysis suggests an
additional reason, however; the European nobility
launched the Crusades partly to gain control of the
trade routes to the East and partly to divert widespread
unrest among the peasantry.

Similarly contemporary conflict between Jews and Muslims
in the Middle East may seem to arise from religious
differences but the tension in really over competing
claims by two different ethnic groups, the Israeli
and the Palestinians for the same homeland.

In much the same way the conflict in Northern Ireland
seemed on the surface to be one between Catholics and
Protestants, but its roots lay much deeper in ethnic and
class divisions between Irish of native descent and those
descended from British settlers.

Interesting - when one looks closer at things.

Dear Foxy,

No one would disagree about the importance of Durkheim and his 'conscience collective' but one needs to keep in mind that for Durkheim everything had to be explained in terms of 'social facts'. He even proposed that something as personal as suicide should be explained by social facts.

Totally agree on how fascinating history can be when one looks at the role of religion. But keep in mind that there is a very important element between ancient and modern religious forms that definitely sets modern religious institutions down a particular historical path. Can you guess what that is?

Dear Mr Opinion,

In the preindustrial societies in which most human
beings have lived throughout history, people accepted
without much question whatever religious beliefs their
society offered.

Their religion was simply another part of their reality,
learned by everyone in the course of socialization.
In these relatively simple societies, religion suffuses
social life; everyday activities, such as eating, hunting,
or caring for the sick, are surrounded with religious
ritual. But as societies have industrialised, they have
tended to undergo secularization, the process by which
religion loses its social influence.

In these highly diversified modern societies, traditional
religion increasingly becomes a separate and distinct
institution, its influence eroded by other institutions such
as government, science, and education.

Indeed, these societies typically include large numbers of
people who have little commitment to religion, or who are
actually irreligious. How far has this trend towards
secularization gone - and what future, if any, does religion
have in the emerging postindustrial societies of the
world is a question that needs looking into?

One way to measure secularization is through public opinion
polls that periodically gather data on people's religious
beliefs in various societies.

However, the fact that sociocultural evolution has meant
some secularization in the past does not mean that this
must necessarily be so in the future.

What we have seen is the growing religious diversity in
the postindustrial future, reflecting the increased
individualism and diversity of those societies.
Particularly in times of uncertainty and rapid social
change, people in the future may well look, as they have
done in the past, to religious values to stabilize and
revitalize their culture.

It may well be the case, in fact, that the need for
religion will eventually reassert itself most powerfully
in precisely those societies that have become
the most industrialised, rationalised, and materialistic.

cont'd ...

Dear Mr Opinion,

For many years it was widely felt that as science progressively
provided rational explanations for the mysteries of the
universe, religion would have less and less of a role to play
and would eventually disappear, unmasked as nothing more than
superstition. But there are still gaps in our understanding that
science can never fill. On the ultimately important questions -
of the meaning and purpose of life and the nature of morality -
science is utterly silent and, by its very nature, always will
be.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny the
possibility of some higher power in the universe, some
supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond the
boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this fundamental sense
religion is probably here to stay.

Opinionated,

Of course not. Please read slowly and carefully: there is a multitude of narratives which people believe, without reflection or much evidence to back them up. None of them may be valid. None.

Some narratives develop (or degenerate) into religious beliefs, or as strong as. It's easier to believe than to spend time trying to justify what one believes. Hence dodgy narratives.

I don't know how to make the distinction between reality and narrative any clearer.

Christ, it's hard trying to talk to half-witted children.

Joe

Dear Foxy,

It's good to see you are also well versed in Weber.

When I asked Can you guess what that is? I was referring to something a bit more pragmatic that the great world religions seem to have that the ancient religions did not. I'll give you a hint: mhaze has one and swears by it.

Dear Loudmouth,

You still haven't answered my question and I'm starting to think that you can't.

Dear Mr Opinion,

How about you contributing more than just asides
and questions.

The stage is yours.

Dear Foxy,

The answer is that they have a book.

Mr Opinionated,

You asked:

"So you are one of those who believe religion makes sense.

Can you explain why?"

I answered you. I'll repeat slowly:

No,
I
don't
believe
that
religion
makes
sense.

And I tried to explain why I thought so, that narratives don't necessarily match reality or make sense. As i tried vainly to explain in 2350 words, some narratives degenerate into religions. Marxism, for example.

Of course, my favourite narrative to poke fun at is the traditional Burmese conception of the earth, as a huge plate standing on the backs of four elephants, which stand on the back of a giant turtle - and it's turtles all the way down. Next door, Thailand and India are parts of a spherical body known as the Earth, with a radius of around 3500 miles. Which narrative is most accurate, Master Opinionated ? Or are both true, by virtue of being 'narratives' ?

Ask a second year student in sociology if you are still totally confused, i.e. if you believe that 'narrative' is always and everywhere true. Is that what you actually believe ? Is first-year sociology a religion in itself ?

Joe

To Mr Opinion.

You asked a question and I like Loudmouth's answer. At least to me it sounded like he was making a distinction between if a religion makes sense, and if it's true. To the people in a religion, that religion makes sense to them. It's a good answer.

To Armchair Critic.

I don't know who you are asking, (it could be Foxy or someone else). But here is my answer.

<<What aspects of your religion are malevolent and which aspects are benevolent?>>

I watch how people in my faith struggle with loving others and standing against sin. In such a way it's disheartening to see how much judgement can come within Christianity and how some are able to write off so many people, when Jesus said he came to save people. At the same time though the services and charity done by Christians is inspiring. Some do a lot for everyone in society that is just plainly left behind by everyone else. The positive side of the message to turn from your sins is that people are encouraged to become better. Continually challenged and encouraged.

Why can't people just be decent ? Don't they know what decency is unless someone tells them ? Are things really that bad ? Why do they need Superstition to scare them into being reasonably decent ?
What's wrong with people ?

To Foxy.

I see we've moved on from religion being the cause of violence and bigotry, to talking about the point of religion. It's role. Be wary of that kind of logic. For there is a point to everyone and everything based on the roles filled. The good points to that kind of reasoning is for policy makers trying stabilize a society, a company to fill in the needs of a business, or even an army to delegate the responsibilities needed. Looking at it this way can make it practical and filling the needs around you. Why you should be wary of it is because no one should look at another person based solely on the role they perform.

Religion is not a stabilization factor of society. If a religion stabilizes a society (not all religions do this) then the question to ask is why does it do this? It's not the point of most religions. Most religions are more personal then that. Holding a conversation of religion as a general term for all religions won't give a very good answer. Because the roots for one religion to be a foundation and to hold a society together, will be different from the roots of another religion that is ok with tearing people apart.

If comparing religions and societies it might maybe compare religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and several other religions based on their accomplishments in being followed by countries and influential in the lives and decisions of those countries and their people. Compare those religions to each other and see where they have provided, and where they haven't. The reasons for each will differ depending on the religion. I wouldn't put in place a religion like Scientology in the ranks of religions serving a society purpose, and I'm sure there are worser ones then that to not put in the comparison of societal role and how they help (or don't).

(Continued)

(Continued)

That said don't miss the main point. If a religion is true or false that matters more then if it fills a role in society. Since God exists, religions that acknowledge Him are worth exploring to see if He can be found by any of them. Some might study other religions they don't believe in to understand them and understand the people who belong to them.

Truth and kindness. Don't forget that point. In order to restrict or remove divisiveness and rabid violence, then truth and kindness are the chief points.

Yuyutsu also made a good point. Religions have become social institutions. Sometimes becoming more a framework in society then it is a personal way of life. That's important. Distinguishing the what a religion teaches compared to what a church, a temple, or a mosque actively does.

Dear NNS,

What a wonderful response on the pros and cons.

Thank You.

Dear Mr Opinion,

Yes they have a book, be it the Bible, the Torah, the Koran,
or whatever. But just as alcohol, guns, and automobiles
are in themselves not dangerous - they become dangerous
when they are in the hands of mentally unstable people or
people with bad intentions who use their books literally
or selectively. Religion needs to take responsibility for
those preaching vitriol from the pulpit and deal with
them appropriately. There's enough hatred in the world,
enough racism and bigotry which ends in violence.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, and the scary thing is that mhaze is running around somewhere out there with you guessed it ......... a book!

Dear Mr Opinion,

No, that's not scary at all. I doubt very much whether
mhaze is doing anything of the sort. What is more
scary is that many organised religions have become
in many cases as calcified as other institutions that
form the structure of our modern world. Our religious
institutions have far too often become handmaidens of
the status quo, while the genuine religious
experience as Yuyutsu points out is anything but that.

True religion as many will point out is internal not
external. The spirit within us cannot be blamed for the
blasphemies carried out in its name. What some have done
in the name of religion, projecting their neuroses, even
perpetrating evil on the world, does not make religion as
a mystical phenomenon invalid.

Dear NNS,

Religious institutions as such are not the only arbiters of
religious expereince. They do not own the Truth, for Truth
cannot be owned. Nor should they think they hold some
franchise on our spiritual life. They are - according to
Rabbi Marianne Williamson - consultants and frameworks,
but they are not God Himself. We should not confuse the path
with the destination.

To Individual.

"Why can't people just be decent?"

Wish it was that easy. Nations and countries around the world won't need justice systems if people could just be decent. Look at the news enough though and you can be horrified by the kinds of murders that are out there there. Clearly it isn't that easy. Don't know what's wrong with people sometimes. Even when we find reasons and excuses, it's sickening to think about the criminal behaviors in the world. This goes beyond the scope of religion and being taught to not kill, not lie, not rape, and not steal, and instead goes into the scope of human behavior and what's wrong with people to create monsters, or even to have decent people do horrific things. There decently is something wrong regardless of religion. Otherwise we would not need a justice system to punish the wrongdoers, and protect the innocent. M

To Foxy.

"Religions don't own Truth." If a religion is true versus a religion that is false that's worth noting. In the same way if a religion comes from God, versus a religion that doesn't that's worth acknowledging. This I think is best found by personal searches. Once a person finds out that God is real and has an invested interest in us (do to a spiritual experience or trusting a friend's experiences), then after that it's only reasonable to ask if God has communicated to us through the religions, (or at least their texts) for future generations to find Him easier, follow Him, and know anything important like how to live or view the world around them. Best to seek God and if something is from God, instead of going through life blindly ignoring the light that is from God, (or at least not distinguishing the light apart of the lies and the evil in the world like a blind person.)

Not_Now.Soon,
Yeah, it'd be nice if people were just a little more considerate, especially those in Authority which of course, are generally the root cause of people behaving badly. Be it dishing out legislation that makes life tough for people to simply fleecing us excessively so that people have to turn to bad practices to make ends meet. All that just to keep the hordes of sabotaging bureaucrats rolling in utterly undeserved salaries whilst others toil for minimum wages.
Why the need for over-the-top salaries for public service bureaucrats ? Thus far, no-one has provided an explanation. Religion is a perfect example of not doing as is being preached !
I have yet to hear a sermon addressing the problem of high salaries in the Public Service.
I have yet to hear a sermon that draws attention to those in the congregation who fall into that category of undeserved high pay ! Hypocrisy ?

In the secular world mankind has progressed at an amazing rate, I am astonished at the scientific genius of humanity. However in the spiritual world man is nothing more than a cave dweller, a knuckle dragger, a nincompoop!

While some moved outside the cave with courage and determination, making huge strides in the physical improvement of mankind, others stayed inside with fear and trepidation to worship mythical deities and demons.

Is it easier to put a man on the moon, than it is to love thy neighbour?

"I have yet to hear a sermon that draws attention to those in the congregation who fall into that category of undeserved high pay ! Hypocrisy ?"

Indy, those in glass houses, should not throw stones. How many undeserved dollars do YOU collect each fortnight from the taxpayer. What hypocrisy!

To Individual and Paul

Before anyone starts throwing stones at anyone let's look at the issue in question.

I honestly don't like excuses for excessive criminal behavior. Blaming it on the rich not sharing the wealth is in the same light. I don't buy it, and I don't accept it. The world is full of hardships, and many people still have the resourcefulness to not murder their families, not con older men and women of their retirement for ____________ what ever sales pitch, scare, or promise from a foreign prince wanting a small investment with great payback.

No excuses. These are the choices of men and women who often plan their actions out before committing the crime. No victim card, only responsibility for our own failing. And the teaching. Repent and turn from your sins. Not a bad idea to recognize the monster within each of us before it comes out and actually does great harm. Turn from it before we recognize what we do and potentially like it.

No excuses. There are serial killers, serial rapists, repeat offenders of all crimes. Then there are the gross heinous crimes that just one of them makes your skin crawl. This goes beyond the scope of religion. Whether any of them are true or are superstition. This goes to the problem of mankind and what is wrong with us.

(Continued)

(Continued)

To Individual.

I am not a pastor or a priest. I have never given a sermon or have a vast knowledge of sermons made to point you to. But I do know the bible has in it a few things to say to the rich. Those who do nothing for the poor around them and who don't pay those who work for them. Two sections in the bible to look up are

•James 5. specifically James 5:1-6. It's a warning to the rich who don't pay their workers.

•Luke 6:24-26. In that Jesus gives a lesson like the beatitudes "blessed are the poor..." and then gives a warning to the rich. These verses are the warning. It's something that I'm sure you, Paul, and I can all share in for a reproach. The world is suffering so much and then there are those who have plenty and don't have to worry about where the next meal comes, or for our very safety and survival. Take heart by it. Social injustice is real and if we live in luxury, that might mean something for us in the future.

Look up the verses on you own guys. I don't have sermon notes for you, but I know if you want answers these ones you can find by the verses I gave you.

What a pleasant surprise to see that this discussion
is still ongoing. Thank You to all of you.

NNS - if you're not a preacher you certainly should
be. I could listen to you. You touch my heart.
And inspire me.

This discussion has broadened out and for that I am
grateful that we're looking at things through
different lenses and perspectives.

Dear Foxy,

Has anyone raised the question What is religion?

I am beginning to think that humans have a lot to answer.
Religious extremists hijack what is normally a loving
peaceful creation. Today we see the results of a
hatred fear and prejudice being passed down to human
misfits. We are fighting a "war on terrorism."
Which should be called a "war on religious extremism."

Islamic extremists seem to be the most prevalent but they
are by no means alone. Hatred exists world wide.

Prejudices exist and are growing - be it against - anything
that is different. Different colour, dress, sexual orientation,
belief, different points of view, different or foreign names,
and the list goes on.

The question is - our actions do affect our life on this
planet and we need to make the choice whether we want to
enhance the life on the planet that we all share or
whether we want to destroy it. The choice is ours.

Dear Foxy,

But what about my question What is religion?

But what about my question What is religion?
Mr Opinion,
My gut feeling tells me that Religion is the most successful control mechanism ever invented by megalomaniac control freaks !

Dear Individual,

«Why can't people just be decent?»

Because they have not yet learned it.

«Don't they know what decency is unless someone tells them?»

Usually not. Decency is not incorporated in the human-animal instinct, in fact it often goes against the grain of one's genetic instincts.

«Are things really that bad?»

Indeed. If you learnt decency at home then you should consider yourself lucky. Many didn't, many others heard the theory of decency verbally but were beset by contrary examples. Whole cultures in fact do not teach decency at all, whereas the Anglo/Western culture generally attempts to teach decency in some rudimentary form.

«Why do they need Superstition to scare them into being reasonably decent?»

Because many do not know or do not understand the real reasons why failing to be decent is so disastrous. I would rather be given invented/false/superstitious reasons to practice decency than to not learn to practice decency at all in my formative years just because my elders fail to know exactly why it is important.

«What's wrong with people?»

Nothing.

Rather look at this from the half-full side of the glass:

This world is a school. We arrive here without any decency and eventually we graduate with full decency and more. This is a cause to celebrate, not to mourn.

Your question is akin to complaining: "What a generation - why can't my school-kids quote Shakespeare and understand Einstein's general theory of relativity?". The thing is, in time they will, and soon after they will graduate and go to university, then they are no longer school-kids.
School will always remain a school, not a university: new generations of pupils will keep coming in ignorant and coming out educated.

«My gut feeling tells me that Religion is the most successful control mechanism»

Our gut is excellent in telling us straight away to reject rotten food, not whether a medicine is good for us.

If you think that religion is a control-mechanism, then you probably never experienced real religion, perhaps just the rots of some decaying old religion. Religion takes you to Freedom, not bondage.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I answered your question about religion on
page 3 of this discussion but I shall briefly
repeat it for you as defined by Durkheim who atated that -

we can say that religion is a system of community shared
beliefs and rituals that are oriented toward some sacred,
supernatural realm.

The phenomenon is of such universal social importance
that it has long been, and remains, a major focus of
sociological interest.

Ì have come to see, however, that true religion is
internal , not external. The spirit within us cannot be
blamed for the for the blasphemies as stated earlier,
that are carried out in its name. What some have done
in the name of religion, projecting their neuroses, even
perpetrating evil on the world does not as Yuyutsu has
pointed out - make religion as a myatical phenomenon
invalid. In fact nothing could be so relevant and so
necessary in the world today.

Dear Foxy,

I saw where you cited Durkheim but his definition is only part of the answer. What about when one is separated in space and time from the social group . This raises other questions of psychology and philosophy.

"Does religion breed hatred, bigotry, and violence?"

No.

Religion is part of its home society. It reflects the values of that society and in turn is melded by the values of that society.

It is neither divisive nor unifying. It provides a focal unifying point for an already unified state but equally provides a point of difference for societies which are already divided.

All societies, as far as we know, have had a notion of the eternal. Religion is you like codifies that.

Equally all societies need some method to enforce overriding rules. No group of people can exist without rules banning murder, theft and protecting the sanctity of the family. Religion offers that. Half of the Ten Commandments relate to such rules. Of coarse they can be enforced via earthly authorities, but they are so important that it is far better to have them enforced by a greater being. That's why many absolute rulers in the past sought to have themselves deified, in order to better enforce their rule.
So religion offers a way for society to set and maintain common and required rules of the society.

Its all too easy to confuse the use of religion in political disputes with thinking that the religion is the cause of the disputes. The problems in Eire for the past 400 years are not caused by the religious difference. They already exist and would exist religion or no. The religion merely offers one, among many, ways of defining the differences and separating the differing forces. A bit like wearing a footy guernsey when attending a match, although on a grander scale.

All societies need a belief in something greater than themselves. As formal religions of old are discarded, we don't abandon religion, we replace it. With climatism, environmentalism, apocalyptic scenarios.

"When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything." Chesterton

Religion keeps society sane. We are now headed toward the insane.

Dear Mr Opinion,

If we carve out an inner kingdom for ourselves,
dwell there with God, we are cleansed no matter
where we travel. :-)

This world is a school.
Yuyutsu,
yes, with greed being the curriculum !

The Straw house that is every faith will be tested on the day humanity finds out we are not alone in the solar system
In fact that may be a reason, if our governments know they have not told us

The denial that one day every man will stand before Christ for judgement results in every evil under the planet. You have babies murdered in the womb regularly, paedophile, gross immorality, lying cheating. The liberal left in the US have shown that they are in the same company as ISIS. Since the fear of any punishment was taken from our schools in Australia violence, insolence and perversion has become a daily occurence. People really are very dumb not to realise that a day will come when they meet their Creator. He will either be their Saviour or Judge. That's probably why Christians in general commit far less atrocities and crimes than others. Without God the moral compass is totally lost as evidenced in this country.

Dear runner,

If we were to take more seriously our individual
contributions to the world, personal contributions
can and do have global effects. As we
go, so goes the world, for the world is us.
The transformation that will save the world is
ultimately a personal one.

cont'd ...

Dear runner,

BTW: Christians are a minority on this planet.
And they are all sinners. What about the Muslims,
Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Scientologists and millions of
others, including non-believers?
Who will save or judge them?

Dear Paul,

«While some moved outside the cave with courage and determination, making huge strides in the physical improvement of mankind, others stayed inside with fear and trepidation to worship mythical deities and demons.»

Everyone worships someone or something, that is human nature, even if it is material such as wealth, power or sex, sports teams, celebrities and politicians included, yet there is a huge difference between worshipping mythical deities and worshipping demons - according to the Bhagavad-Gita 17:4, "tell me whom you worship and I will tell all about you":

"Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods; those in the mode of passion worship the demons; and those in the mode of ignorance worship ghosts and spirits."

http://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/17/verse/4
http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-17-04.html
http://www.narayanashramatapovofofofanam.org/bg-ebook/2199-bhagavad-gita-chap-17-verse-04
http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/bhagavad-gita-17-4
(4 slightly different translations)

«Is it easier to put a man on the moon, than it is to love thy neighbour?»

Apparently so: to put a man on the moon requires the mode of passion (rajas), which is all too common, but to genuinely (not for profit/gain) love one's neighbour requires the mode of goodness (sattva).

The lowest of men, who live in darkness and ignorance (of the mode of tamas), stayed inside with fear and trepidation.
The middling, who are ambitious (of the mode of rajas), came out and landed on the moon.
The best and purest (of the mode of sattva), remain tranquilly inside the cave of their heart, to love God and others - they have no need for the moon for they have no need to prove anything.

“My brother, he was the hero. He got a grip of him, along with another guy we don’t know, and put a crate on his head. He was just mumbling religious things,” he said.

http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/hero-bystanders-followed-trail-of-blood-to-track-down-sydney-stabbing-suspect/news-story/aacd3acdbfd211a2f9257ab22263d68c

To Foxy.

Thank you. I don't think I deserve that, but it's very nice to hear. Thank you.

As for your question to Runner, the hope might be that everyone is saved regardless what they believe or how they act, but Jesus came and is the way to be saved. Outside of that people are on their own to try to earn their salvation. I don't think anyone has what it takes to earn a favorable afterlife. Expecially in the world we live in and just trying to get by through any stresses and frustrations that might just make us lash out and add more of the problem to the world we live in. The good news in Christianity is that Jesus came to save us, and not much is asked except to recognize what He did, believe in Him, and follow Him. In every other religion that I know of there are laws, rules and views of how to lose your place, or to work your way back up to a good life (and a good afterlife). Nothing on being saved that I'm aware of. The other good news is that God can reach anyone anywhere in their lives and circumstances.

However, if people want to be saved, I think Christianity is the only one that preaches that even the worst of people can turn around and be saved, instead of having to earn it and prove they're a changed person.

To Mr. Opinion.

What is religion? It'd be easier to just have a list of recognized religions. Depending on who you ask you'll get a different answer. Even experts and scholars will have different criteria and definition for what makes something a religion versus what is a group of philosophies or habits and behaviors. (For instance global warming is now coined as a religion by some. Does it fit the criteria? Depends on who you ask.)

Then there is some kind of concepts of "true religion" versus something else. Yuyustu has some philosophies on what is religion that has nothing to do with organizations as much as a means of leading people to God. I think in some conversations he's said that some beliefs that don't believe in any God still make a person go to God because of what's believed, taught, and lessons learned sort of thing.

So yeah. I'd say it'd just be easier to have a list of different religions to compare to then to debate what religion actually is. Personally I'd rather just stick to the specifics of which religion instead of generalizing all the religions together. That usage of the term has become a smokescreen to criticize all religions through complains from any religion.

To Armchair Critic.

Sad news. Glad they caught the guy before anyone else was stabbed. (Also glad it was a knife and not a gun). It'd be nice to know what religion he was muttering from. If it came from a sermon or a section in some religious writings, or if the guy was with no religion and just off his rocker. (Which he definitely was). If this was influenced by something preached in a mosque or a church, then those preachers should be notified. If they gave a similar message, make sure there's something in there to not kill due to that teaching. Specifically for the mentally unstable that might be listening in the crowd.

Dear NNS,

To me my beliefs are personal. I have no wish to
convert anyone else. To me as I stated earlier
religion is internal. It does not matter what we
call it or how we frame it. It is a mystical
phenomenon. I feel like a seeker, a pilgrim.
The pilgrimage is a process by which we can change
what we think and transform who we are. Prayer is
the pilgrim's walking stick. I pray for the capacity
to see the good in people.

I shan't say any power - because as I stated earlier,
it is personal. I will just add that I have found
that praying helps. Through prayer we do find what
we can't find elsewhere: a peace that is not of this
world.

cont'd ...

Ooooops. Excuse my typo.

I meant to say - "I shan't say any more -
because it is personal." I don't want
to sound as though I am preaching.

Mr O,

You asked what is a religion?

Well firstly you need a spiritual leader, a messiah, a prophet, like Jesus, or Mohammad or Fred Flintstone, all equally valid. Then you need something to worship, a god, a deity, a giant pumpkin, whatever. Then you need a rule book to follow, scripture, the Bible, the Koran or if nothing else Marvel Comics will do the trick. Then most importantly you need followers, particular cashed up one if you can find them. No followers, no religion.

p/s A catchy name goes down well, and a couple of high profile celebs also tends to kick start the whole thing.

I don't know why everyone wants to beat around the bush when asked What is religion? Everybody has been giving an answer without an answer. Let me have a go to see what sort of result I come up with:

Religion is a mode of thinking about and ordering the world outside of scientific, common sense and everyday actions and is typically defined by belief in the supernatural, which enables its adherents to control or direct outcomes to their advantage.

How does that sound? Now you have a go.

As stated earlier - for some religion is a system
of communally shared beliefs and rituals that are
oriented toward some sacred, supernatural realm.

Whatever our religious beliefs may be, we usually
learn them from other people through socialisation into
a particular faith. (or through resocialisation, if we
convert to another). The religious convictions that
anyone holds are influenced by the historical and social
context in which that person happens to live.

Someone born in ancient Rome would probably have
believed that Jupiter is father of the gods; at any rate,
he or she would certainly not have been a Southern
Baptist or a Hindu.

Similarly, if your parents are Catholic, you probably
were or still are Catholic; if they are Mormon, you are
or were Mormon, and so it goes.

Of course we are not the passive prisoners of our
upbringing of course, but even people who decide to
convert from one religion to another must almost
inevitably select their new faith from the unique range of
options that their particular culture happens to offer at
a particular point in its history.

Dear Foxy,

So do you think any of what you just said would fit my definition?

Dear Mr Opinion,

I am not competent to investigate the supernatural
or to play umpire between competing faiths.
I can only discuss the social rather than the
theological aspects of religion.

Mr O, bejesus! Did Fred Flintstone say all that? I was okay with the simple message of "yabba dabba doo" it gave me spiritual comfort and meaning to life.

I get the feeling that this discussion has now
run its course.

Once again I'd like to Thank You all for your
responses and I look forward to our next
encounter.

Enjoy your evening and remember to be kind to
each other.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«Jesus came to save us, and not much is asked except to recognize what He did, believe in Him, and follow Him.»

Not much? Following Jesus' complete unselfish example is the most difficult (and most rewarding) achievement anyone can have. In fact it is so difficult that no one can attain it without God's grace.

It is pretty easy to hold, even preach, the view/opinion that Jesus died on the cross to save us - but true recognition and belief amounts to much more.

«In every other religion that I know of... Nothing on being saved that I'm aware of.»

Hinduism is all about salvation, Moksha (Buddhism prefers the word 'Nirvana'): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha

«I think Christianity is the only one that preaches that even the worst of people can turn around and be saved»

The enlightened sage Valmiki, who wrote the God-inspired epic of Ramayana (the story of Lord Rama, an incarnation of God), was originally, before he repented, a ferocious forest-robber and murderer:
http://www.parentcircle.com/article/maharishi-valmiki-the-transformation-of-a-robber-into-adikavi/

---

Dear Paul,

«Well firstly you need a spiritual leader»

This may be a requisite for organised-religion, but not for religion.
And be very sure that the leader is indeed spiritual, not a pretender.

«Then you need something to worship»

You normally need a focal point so your mind does not go in a thousand directions.

«Then you need a rule book to follow»

Second only to a live teacher, if you want the teachings to be preserved for generations after his/her death.

«Then most importantly you need followers, particular cashed up one if you can find them.»

Yes, cashed up is better because they already experienced wealth and found it unsatisfactory, unfulfilling. At least they will not try this particular dead-end again.

---

Dear Mr. Opinion,

«Religion is a mode of thinking about and ordering the world... How does that sound?»

Like an uniformed and wrong opinion.

---

Dear Foxy,

I feel proud of your insights.

Just a few thoughts before I go that I'd like
to share with you all:

It's only been a short while since my mother
passed away and I am so grateful in being
able to tell her of my love.
My mother was my biggest booster, I hers.

I marvelled at the capability with which she
organised her life. Will you look at my mother
I used to think. What a beautiful person. It
was difficult when dementia set in.

I therefore want to say we should take nothing for
granted.

You know the Aztecs were terrified each night when
the sun set that it would not rise again the next
morning. They were grateful for each dawn.

It takes a long time to become a person. Longer than
they tell you. Longer than I thought. I am grateful
for my ancestry, it has given me the present. I
want to do well by the future.

Take care.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Thank You for your kind words.

Dear Foxy,

You say 'It takes a long time to become a person.' Actually it's 30 years. People don't become human beings until they turn 30 years old.

Hi Foxy, we haven't debated the conundrum of did god create man, or did man create god.

Interesting today, a very nice old dear from the local Catholic Church came a call'n. The dear old soul was out preaching the anti-euthanasia gospel. The wife and I showed her the usual courtesy, and invited her in. After some introductions, she opened up and moved the discussion to the churches strong stance against euthanasia, fair enough. Oddly she assumed the wife and I must also be opposed to "this form of murder" us being nice people and all. A bad assumption on her part, she appeared somewhat gob smacked when I informed her politely that I supported the right of an individual to choose to end their life.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I came up with a pretty good definition in one sentence.

Let's see what you can come up with in the space of one sentence.

I'm open to getting ideas that I can use to improve my understanding.

Dear Paul1405,

Are you referring to the God that is all-caring, all-knowing and all-powerful?

Dear Mr. Opinion,

Religion is doing the things and making the choices that bring one closer to God.

To Foxy.

It was a good conversation while it lasted. Honestly I'm surprised it lasted that long before someone tried to run it through the anti-religion brigade. I agree that faith is a very personal thing. So I understand your stance to not want to preach. However, I don't like how I've seen that feeling to not preach become a pressure to not share at all. At least that's the impression I get when entering a conversation about religion. Almost seems like when talking to someone in real life you need to apologize for wanting to share your beliefs before your allowed to share them. Otherwise it's preaching down their throats. There is something wrong with that in my opinion. Sorry if I pushed you past your comfort zone. I was just giving it the way I understand the matter. That impression, is that without Jesus there is no salvation. We're on our own to reach God and earn our way to a good afterlife (depending on the religion, not always heaven). For several people I know and I love I hope I'm wrong for their sake. Either way sorry if I became too preachy for ya.

To Yuyutsu.

Hinduism has a salvation part of it's faith? That's news to me. I was under the impression that Hinduism had the concept of reincarnation multiple lives until a person gets it right. It's not a heaven or hell concept, but it also didn't seem like a salvation concept either. Each person has to earn their way or fulfill their understanding (on their own) before leaving that cycle of reincarnations. If I'm wrong, please explain further.

As for following Jesus I see what you're saying about the difficulty in doing it. However, earning our way to heaven isn't part of that equation. The way I understand it is that with God's help we can become more and more like Him. Or at least become better people then we were before. I think the theological term I hear referencing this is being sanctified (apparently a different term then being saved). However when Jesus was on the cross, one of the criminals facing the same punishment seemed to have turned to Jesus. With that Jesus reassured the man that he would be in paradise. That's where I get the impression that all it takes is recognition of Jesus in order for Him to save you. Following Jesus after that is partly on you, but is a lot more on God's mercy to hold onto you and keep you on your journey. It's kind of like saying Christians aren't perfect, but those that are focusing on Jesus, and focusing on God continue their growth in their walk with Jesus. At least that's the impression I get.

...just saw your answer to Mr Opinion. It's a good answer. I also feel like I got it right (or at least very close) earlier when I described your view of religion as an example of there being different definitions of religion depending on who you ask.

To Paul.

Here are a few thoughts to consider. Look at our anatomy. How our body works. From a baby in the womb to the age of 105. You do this for humans and it's fascinating. Do the same for any other creature and their body throughout their life and it's just as inspiring. The way life is engineered is amazing. More then that look at ecosystems. How we've come to an understanding that animals and plants fit a harmony in their environment, where they all fit together. Specialization for hunting, for running, for hiding. For living around only that environment and not being suited well for different ecosystems. Life itself is engineered in a way that fits together.

The diversity and complexity of life is amazing, but for the last thought, look at the Earth and at outer space. Why life has become so abundant and diverse on earth while in a desert of life in space should shake anyone who's observant on the reality we live in. The question isn't just how did life begin on earth, and become so diverse. The question is also why is life still here, and not a desert lifeless rock like everywhere else we've been able to see in space. (So far the hunt for other life is still ongoing. Haven't found anything, and expecially haven't found abundant life like we have on earth.)

If you have a better explanation for life then that we were created and protected, this tiny speck called Earth, then I'd like to hear the hypothesis. So far everything I've heard falls short.

NNS

I would be happy to oblige, but not on this topic, I don't want to facilitate an already over blown ego, for fear of feeding her superiority complex.
Start a new topic accordingly and you never know where it will lead.

Foxy by posting a thread we clearly have found interesting has got the attention of ALTAV
Maybe being targeted by such a poster is a win, evidence you got it right
Not-now-soon seems to target those like me not a believer in any God
I claim in my defense that is my religion, therefore a right
With all the passion I had as a true Christian born again, I truly believe humanity must become one
As reason to stop killing each other,to stop hate
And that only without our comfort blanket God, every one of them , can webe one humanity

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«Hinduism has a salvation part of it's faith?»

At the centre of its faith.

«That's news to me. I was under the impression that Hinduism had the concept of reincarnation multiple lives until a person gets it right.»

When one gets it right, one gets the best chances of salvation, but grace is also needed.
The best analogy I can think of is the sailing boat: it has no power of its own to reach its destination, but if it constantly turns its sails in the right direction, then the wind will eventually carry it there.

Salvation is by realising one's true identity, God, as one is liberated from the bondage of the illusion of supposedly being only a limited being/creature.
One effect of salvation is the cessation of reincarnation, this is because once recognising one's identity with God, the attraction of the world fades away: when one knows themselves as infinite, why would they want to play again in this puddle? It is still possible for selected liberated souls to reincarnate for serving the good of the world, but not for the fulfilment of selfish desires (which are no more).

«It's not a heaven or hell concept»

Hinduism acknowledges the existence of heaven and hell: heaven is very pleasurable, hell is very painful, but both are only temporary and eventually one has to reincarnate. Liberation/salvation can only practically occur in this world between. Therefore one should never seek heaven, but be good for the sake of goodness, not waste their merits on pleasure but use them to find God instead.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Surely you can come up with a better definition than that ten seconds afterthought. A six year old could come up with better than that!

Is religion the biggest con job, since Eve gave the apple to Adam?

Once again, I would like to Thank You all for
making this a very interesting discussion.
I'm sure that it has given us all a lot of
food for thought and by sharing and seeing the
variety of views on this topic - I feel that we can
all learn and benefit.

Let us search our minds for the judgements we still
may hold. It takes discipline and vigilance to do
the mental work necessary to purify our hearts.

Honesty with ourselves and the willingess to chnage
form the crux of the pilgrim's journey.

Can ideologies degenerate into religions ? i.e. something with rules that one must obey without question, with a tight in-group and demonised out-groups (cf. Festinger, Mr Opinionated), where one must be firm and merciless with one's enemies for the good of the cause, etc. ? But something not necessarily with any religious, magic, or supernatural content ?

Religions also have their embedded ideologies, since they are usually so vaguely written that one can interpret the strictures as one pleases. Some of the parables and lessons in, say, the Bible, I find very moving, even as an atheist: the Good Samaritan story for example. A story of course, a cautionary tale, a fable, an example of proper behaviour.

The story itself goes so hard against conventional thought these days - the notion of helping someone who is NOT one of one's own, even at a personal cost, is surely the essence of the universalism that Marx wrote passionately about (cf. the Internationale, Mr Op), regardless of where the story may be from. It reminds me of non-Jewish people in Europe who shielded Jews at the risk of their own lives. Wonderful people, heroes - and I wonder how many currently on the extreme 'Left' or Right would ever have the courage and integrity and compassion to do that ?

Joe

I understand my views confront many
Let me assure you they are just as strongly passionately held as in my Christian days
And full of hope just as my once faith in Christ was
At the end of my rainbow [sadly just as unlikely without force as Christs return] is the dream we can bury racism, become one human race
Because it is my view faith drives hate

Dear Mr O,

"Dear Paul1405,

Are you referring to the (Christian) God that is all-caring, all-knowing and all-powerful?"

No his twin, the vengeful, hateful, all-knowing and all powerful Christian God who held centre stage until around 400 or 500 years ago. Not sure what happened to that particular dude, but things changed.