Belly,

You said,

"Worldwide investigations have highlighted not one as bad as the Catholic Church, over centuries"

That is the statement that you can't back up, so it looks like a statement from an anti-Catholic bigot.

You could also tell us

Which world wide investigations?

"not one as bad as the Catholic Church, over centuries."

So tell us which church was the second worst according to the world wide investigators?

Tell us who the investigators were?

We need some references.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

OK, so you are using "what is from God and what isn't" as a loose expression.

«How much more can you say we would know by intuition what is from God and what isn't.»

God's light shines through a pure mind but fails to shine through a clouded mind, so the quality of one's intuition is commensurate with their purity of mind.

Therefore listen to the saints and sages whose mind is pure.

Regarding your theory, the idea as if God wants everyone at all times to obey their current ruler fails every ordinary test of logic, yet this is how you understand your scripture and I have great appreciation for devotees who for their love of God are willing to leave logic and common sense at the door. I see many greatly-differing English translations for [Psalms 116:6], but the correct one is: "God guards the gullible, I was dwindled and He saved me". May God bless you that you never have to face a reality of a badly oppressive regime, and if you do, then may others do the rebelling in your place.

[Continued...]

[...Continued]

A story:

A letter was unearthed, addressed from Sage Zarathustra to a devoted lady. It read: "I hear that you want to visit me: I will be delighted to have you, but don't forget to turn off the stove and the tap".

Some could not believe that the holy Sage would waste his time idly writing of petty mundane affairs, so they concluded that the letter must be symbolic: the stove must refer to the fire of sexual desire while the tap refers to the ever-blabbering mouth. They followed this sage advice and thus were happy and prospered, both in this world and thereafter in heaven.

Others took it more literally and concluded that having stoves and taps is a bad thing. They became hippies and carried placards in front of parliament-house: "Back to nature: no more stoves, no more taps!". Some of them however, became more extreme and decided that God wants them to cut the throats of any heretic who keeps a stove or a tap.

When asked why they do so, they just say: "THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA!".

Then another group was a bit more reserved. They re-read the letter and concluded that only women must turn off their stoves and taps when they leave their house, so men must not use stoves or taps when the lady of the house is out. Over the centuries they forgot this reasoning, but they still are unable to recall whence came their custom of locking up their women at home.

When asked why they do so, they just say: "THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA!".

Now indeed, the great sage Zarathustra never lied nor spoke idly: he and that devoted lady shared the information, which no other living soul knew - that on her previous visit to him, she forgot to turn off the stove and the tap before leaving her house, then when she returned home she found it flooded and full of smoke from the blackened pot on the stove. After paying her water and electricity bills, it took a long time until she could afford to visit Zarathustra again.

To Yuyutsu.

I'm sure you are aware of this great separation between your and my views. But I don't think it's actually been discussed as a point on it's own. But perhaps it should be. On the topic of freedom of religion (which we both agree with to varying degrees) you support freedom of religion because in your view all beliefs lead to God. To me I support freedom of religion because I think without that freedom to seek on your own, then the truth can't be found, and finding God is harmed for those who aren't allowed to question the teachings they are taught, or to seek out answers on their own (without being punished or oppressed by a government, a business, or a community).

On the topic of freedom of religion our views agree that there should be that freedom. But not for the same reason.

In my views, the truth should be able to confirm or correct a person. Even to the subject matter of seeking and finding God. This standard is something to set against my own views so that they can be cleaned up from things that are not true and not trustworthy. However in your views all things point to God, so nothing is corrected, nothing is challenged, and the truth doesn't actually matter.

Regarding your point when it comes to a time of following God or following the government I hope my choice is the same as Daniel and his companions in the book of Daniel to keep praying (after they outlawed it) and to not worship false gods and Idols (even after it was a decree from the king). Or my choice is the same as the midwives in Egypt that did not kill the boys being born to the Israelites. (After the Pharaoh demanded it). Or be like the Germans in Nazi Germany that hid Jews and those being sent to concentration camp instead of playing a part in the evil of that era.

(Continued)

(Continued)

It is easy to reason to rebel, fight back, and cause a rebellion when you see injustice. It is harder to trust in God through those injustices, and to disobey the government without coming to rebel against it.

If the time comes to fight against an evil in my home and government, I am not confident that I will obey God's standards to trust in Him instead of acting in another rebellion and civil war. But at least I can acknowledge what God's standards are. And to strive to trust Him more.

The French Revolution may have been caused and justified by oppression, but how did it end? A massive amount of death during the rebellion and after it as competing groups sought for power. How did it end? With Napoleon Bonaparte coming to power and all that followed in history with him at the wheel. How is the civil war in Syria coming? Is that not started under the same reasoning to fight against the oppressive regime?

It is better to follow God, without understanding the reasoning, then to follow our own reasoning and end worse off then before. God's teachings should direct us and correct us, just as the truth in any matter should do the same.

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Why do you say that my view is that all beliefs lead to God?

I do believe that each and everyone of us will eventually reach God, but with a wrong view this road might take a very long time - perhaps trillions of years, perhaps even more.

The freedom to seek the truth, which is God, on your own and questioning one's teachings is very important and for many this is a religious practice. All I am saying is that ALL religious practices need to be protected, INCLUDING this practice of seeking the truth.

The difficulty is that actions which are religious for some, and/or at certain times, are irreligious for others and/or at other times. We do have some guidelines to tell which is which, but to tell for certain requires the gift of prophecy. For example, you see someone dropping a $10 note in the offering-basket. Do they do it for the love of God, or perhaps to impress their neighbour or spouse? perhaps they plan another sin and don't want God to be angry at them? God sees to the heart, but man usually doesn't.

I agree that many revolutions have gone sour (including the Iranian revolution). Revolting is not for everyone, you need wisdom to know when to rebel, against whom, by whom and how exactly to do it. But otherwise, the Berlin wall could still be there and we wouldn't have stories like http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-15/rahaf-alqunun-speaks-first-time-from-canada-asylum/10716182

It is definitely better to follow God, at all times, including when it goes against our own reasoning and understanding. Sometimes it is quite clear what God wants of us, but at other times it is not and we do need reasoning and understanding to tell which direction leads to God.

Many would wish for a magic formula that provides infallible answers on how to reach God, but we should heed the words of him who was considered wisest of men, Ecclesiastes: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven". Learning is very important, but grace too is indispensable.