Federal Election: Bill Shorten says 50% of cars sold in Australia will be electric by 2030 under Labor and will reduce carbon emissions by 20%.
Is this a reality or just a pipe dream? What effects will it have on the economy and employment? Especially in the fuel and it supply industries?

Don't worry Josephus, our grid would collapse long before anything more than a small penetration was achieved.

Sough Oz could end up dark foe weeks.

Well electric cars will arrive, all on their own , see profit drives the industry and that will drive the cars
Some trucks are electric,some countries far more concerned about climate change than ScoMos tossers
Credlin, told us Abbott developed the term *Carbon Tax* to frighten the chooks, and aged non thinkers
It worked, for a while, progress can not be stopped once no doubt, people sniggered when told whale oil would no longer light street lamps
Economy? fossil fuels will run out one day,we know that, Bazz often warns us it is now, some pain for owners of fossil fuels, but spread over years

So how much more electricity will be needed to charge up all those millions of cars ? And everybody going for the 'cheapest' hourly rate, which will push up the hourly rate ? Goodbye. Snowy 2.0. How much more renewable energy will have to be factored in to power millions of cars ?

Or is this just a scam to massively benefit the auto companies in one of those historic 'revolutions' in technology ? Not to mention the energy companies ?

They moan about the cost of electricity (when it's clearly their fault); they say that we have to use more wind and solar and do away with coal ALTOGETHER; they won't have a bar of nuclear. But, now we should use more electricity in cars. In the building as well as the driving.

Politician = lunatic.

C02 emissions reduced by 20% thanks to four wheeled sewing machines? Any reduction is likely to be due to the fact that that their will be fewer internal combustion engines, because people will not be able to afford electric cars - electric cars which will need massive amounts of electricity to produce. We are going to have to reduce the population before we reduce any more emissions.

Politician = lunatic.

What about heavy, long distance haulage that keeps the country going. Back to bullock wagons, with the only thing 'electric’ will be the colourful language of the 'bullockies” in the air.

Politician = lunatic.

And it's not just Labor. Liberal lunacy is not far behind the Labor sort. Their much-touted minister for reducing electricity prices, Angus Taylor, has proved to be a dud.

The politicians/lunatics driving Australia into the ground cannot meet their obligations to have 90 days fuel on hand. Any interruption to our fuel imports (think China) would see Australia grind to a halt in 30 days. Compare this with the likes of the U.S, 12 months emergency supply available; Switzerland, 6 months.

And these bastards can only talk crap about electric cars in 20 years! The lunatics cannot be trusted to supply us with any more than a month's worth of fuel now; they cannot be trusted with any sort of energy at any time.

All this reference from Shorten's supporters to Norway's heavy adoption of electric cars neglects the fact that HEP drives its grid, 24/7/365. Just more sleight of hand from the same Greenies touting Iceland as the poster-child for 100% renewables (geothermal 24/7/365) that the world should emulate.

If/when vehicless are chargeable by a grid that can cope it will be powered some by renewables but mostly with fossil-fueled backup/baseload. Any dream of storage holding the key is crap piled on the dung notion storage can serve the electricity system sufficient for 100% renewables.

We'll see some some reduction in emissions, but not what's required to sufficiently address CAGW. Nuclear is the only sensible technology in Oz that will make electrification of transport (and electrification in general) demand responsive, and can also be used to synthesize fuel to meet shipping and long-haul demand.

Electric vehicles can make their own way into the market successfully without unnecessary direct/indirect subsidies. I'd also like to know how Shorten can assure industry of his claim it will not be impacted by his energy policy. Other energy consumers will have to cover the true cost through higher bills and other forms of public subsidy, but he won't say that.

Peak oil now we hear some talking peak energy, well electricity
The market will always be met as that is how profit is made
I would be more concerned about the tax rates rising fast on electricity used in these cars
Still convince these cars are on the way if for no other reason to make profit

economic vandals never change their spots.

Belly what on earth makes you think electric cars will be any more profitable than petrol cars. I'm afraid your lefty attitude to industry is showing. To you obviously anything bad must be the bosses.

Did you know, electric cars did come in, back in 1915, & went by 1925. They didn't do the job then, when the ICE was very crude, it has no chance without idiot government subsidies. Talk about corruption, Shorten must see a quid in it for himself somewhere.

I saw some figures recently showing each electric car will require over $5000 spent on the grid to supply enough power, not counting trillions on extra generation capacity, & unless we go nuclear that power generation will emit more CO2 than ICE cars.

The sudden load increase would endanger our grid every night. If you don't know what that means, take a quick look at Venezuela. They crashed their grid, due to stupid socialist government policies, & have not been able to restart it after days of trying, despite huge hydro capacity.

You can't start a grid with wind power, windmills require power to be fed to them to be able to start generating.

It is impossible to know if Shorten is a shonk or just a fool, probably both, but it is obvious he is the most the most dangerous thing Oz has faced in 70 years. Hell, he even manages to make Whitlam look almost reasonable.

Hassbeen,
>You can't start a grid with wind power, windmills require power to be fed to them to be able to start generating.

FALSE

SA disproved your claim when they restarted the grid with wind power after the statewide blackout.

I'll probably respond to the rest of the claims in this thread later, but I thought this particularly glaring error needed correcting right away.

I don't see us going for electric cars any
time soon. Re-charging the car overnight
is not a problem - and doing short trips
around the community may work well. But on
longer trips - (Melbourne to Sydney) would
be problematic. Where to re-charge the car?
And for how long?

I think we're quite a few years off yet
for this to succeed.

Hasbeen ny old sparring partner what makes you think you are always right?
Once we lived in caves, we came out.
Electricity will improve along with everything else man has used
Even solar powered stations built just to recharge these cars
Is your defense of fossil fuel based on the belief we will never need another power source
Or is in on behalf of the self interests of the owners of fossil fuels
IF we built just one Nuclear power generator [hopefully we will build more] we would cut this nations Carbon footprint right away.
And no Nuclear is not a threat, past problems came about because of sub standard building/Engineering

Note the 50% electric cars applies within the next 11 years according to Bill, not 50 years. In the last years since 2008 [11 years] we have not seen 50% of owners change and scrap their cars. Which is an impossible dream for 50% of car owners to turn to electric and all the infrastructure in place to supply the needed electricity. Electric cars use 3 times the copper that the current cars use so that means finding more copper perhaps we pull down the electric copper wiring along the roads and place solar panels on every building to recharge the cars. There are currently 17,200,000 cars registered in Australia, so to replace half in 12 years means a manufacture of 8,600,000 in the next 11 years.

The problem remains if we leave coal in the ground we wont have the bitumen to surface the roads.

The SA power grid is NOT based on wind. Natural gas is the main source (60%). A small amount comes from diesel-powered stations and, when unreliable wind and sun lets us down, we rely on interstate interconnectors - coal-powered.

It was such a damn shame that when the Libs saw off car manufacturing in this country that we didn't take a run at supporting the manufacture of electric cars.

The US government subsidy of Tesla ran into billions of dollars and a loan of over $400 million from the Department of Energy was paid back in 3 years.

We had no such visionaries here. The Libs just wanted to do away with all subsidies so the farmers of the Nationals could sell their produce overseas all the while sending a substantial manufacturing skillset to the scrap heap.

Well that chance seems to be blown thanks to typical neanderthal thinking, some of which is on display here.

The more electric cars that we have in service means that the new car market will decline, electric cars do not wear out.
I have seen electric motors that have been in use for over 100 years and apart from a couple of skims of the commutators and replacement of brushes nothing much has been done to them.

On my small lathe I have a 1/3 hp, repulsion induction motor that's probably over 70 years old, it was second hand when I bought it 60 years ago and it has had nothing done to it since I've had it.
The yearly new model will be a thing of the past.

Belly,
"It worked, for a while, progress can not be stopped once no doubt, people sniggered when told whale oil would no longer light street lamps"

Be careful what you wish for.

We've reached the first time in history where the rich and powerful no longer need a large labour force.
They have the technology for robots and AI.
I hear AI can now diagnose patients better than doctors.
Human beings are becoming obsolete.

Human beings have reached the pinnacle of their usefulness.

Which is why I've always advocated for a system that safeguards human usefulness.
'Socialist base-level employment' to make use of the 5% capitalism needs to prevent wage growth.
'The job you have when you don't have a job'.

Struth, there's so many ridiculous statements on this thread it's difficult to know when to start!

But I suppose I'd better start by saying I'm NOT of the opinion that there's an urgent need to shift Australia to electric cars. IMO Air pollution concerns mean there's quite a strong case in Sydney, but in the rest of the country it's far from compelling.

Most of the posters in this thread seem to think there's a huge technical obstacle to overcome. They seem not to have noticed that the grid is being upgraded anyway, and there's currently a huge investment in solar and wind farms and a general consensus that the grid will need to (and will) be upgraded whatever happens. But more alarmingly, they've also failed to notice that contemporary EVs aren't like the underpowered short range EVs of the late twentieth century (or in Hasbeen's case, the early twentieth century). The technology has moved on!

To get some idea of the reality, try reading http://reneweconomy.com.au/better-off-walking-to-dubbo-the-melt-down-at-sky-news-over-ev-targets-84630/

I see the usual promoters of nuclear power are again baselessly dismissing the capabilities of renewables while relying on heroic assumptions about the cost of nuclear.

As usual the stupidest comments belong to ttbn, who this time seems to think electric cars would result in us using bullock wagons for freight! I see he also disputes a claim that wasn't made. What the SA power grid is currently based on does not alter the fact that wind power was used to restore the grid after the statewide blackout. Whether the windfarm had batteries for this purpose or just used a type of generator that didn't require active excitation I don't know, but the fact remains that you can start a grid with wind power and our state did.

BTW ttbn, your "60% gas" figure is either a bit misleading (because it excludes behind the meter solar) or old. It's more like 50% and falling rapidly.

Hasbeen, in addition to my previous comments: the idea that all the EVs would start charging at once is quite batty. But hypothetically if they did, grid scale batteries would prevent the grid from crashing. And Venezuela did restart its grid but it's had major blackouts again since - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Venezuelan_blackouts

Josephus,
The 50% figure is of new cars sold, not all cars on the road. Though I question its wisdom, it's easily possible.

Bitumen doesn't depend on coal. Most is a product of oil refining and there even places where it occurs naturally. There are also plenty of other alternatives, but bitumen has the great advantage of being cheap.

Is Mise,
Was the yearly new model ever really a thing in Australia?

"SA disproved your claim when they restarted the grid with wind power after the statewide blackout. I'll probably respond to the rest of the claims in this thread later, but I thought this particularly glaring error needed correcting right away". Aidan, Tuesday,


Garbage Aidan. They used some diesel, lots of gas, & the interconnector from Victoria. You can't start any alternator without excitement power. Do try to do some research.

Belly I agree we should have nuclear, but we should have the cheapest power. That is still coal, despite any garbage from Aiden. Charging electric cars from our existing grid produces more CO2 than running equivalent ICE cars.

Steely, I can't believe you are as stupid as your posts. I can only assume you are a gravy train rider, or you wouldn't post such rubbish. It was a mixture of ridiculously high wages for process workers, & government stupidity in buying mostly imports for it's fleets, instead of sticking with local products.

Even when local production was at it's height, most were sold to government & industry for company fleets. A huge percentage of private owners bought second hand from these sources, not new.

The majority of new private buyers are at the cheep end, small & medium cars, or at the SUV & large crew cab utes. Few buy large new saloons today, & actually haven't for decades. With our costs any small car production was not viable.

If you want to blame anyone, try the unions, & government been counters. Our wage structure destroyed our industry. I once supplied plastic raw material to 7 TV, 8 refrigerator, 4 washing machine manufacturers all in Sydney. All now gone because they couldn't compete withy Asian wage structures. Hell even some Asians can no longer compete. Cheap shipping killed what high costs didn't.

If ever someone figures out how to ship complete fold up houses from Asia, our last avenue of major employment will also be gone.

Hasbeen if we put our bias aside a day must come when coal and oil are no longer available
Yes Nuclear costs much more to build, but less to run
Early morning dip in the news found a Nordic country 60 percent of all new cars are EV
yes we are a far bigger country, will need second generation cars to fill our needs
City,s are ok now
Think with me on the red phone box on the corner,not so long ago that was our only phone away from home
We progressed, from the brick mobile to today's computer in your pocket phone
So it will, as it must, be with both electricity and EVs

Hasbeen,
It appears I may be wrong about the restart after the statewide blackout, as I can't find a link to confirm what I remember.

>You can't start any alternator without excitement power. Do try to do some research.
Technically the ones I was thinking of that don't require excitement power are magnetos rather than alternators.

Lithium batteries: Lithium does not occur as a free element in nature. It is found in small amounts in ores from igneous rocks and in salts from mineral springs. Pure lithium metal is produced by electrolysis from a mixture of fused (molten) lithium chloride and potassium chloride.

To extract lithium from these brines, the waters are pumped to the surface and into a series of evaporation ponds, where the water evaporates over a number of months. Potassium is usually harvested first from the early ponds, and then later ponds contain a larger concentration of lithium.

The typical estimated life of a Lithium-Ion battery is about two to three years or 300 to 500 charge cycles, whichever occurs first. One charge cycle is a period of use from fully charged, to fully discharged, and fully recharged again.

Dear Hasbeen,

Jeez you talk rubbish a lot. What killed off the car industry was the fact that the Liberals were not prepared to support it when the mining boom took the Australian dollar to nearly $1.20 US. This was never going to last and it now sits at about $0.70 US.

Chinese wages were always going to go up in fact Chinese engineers are now paid more than their Australian counterparts. Places like the US and Germany supported their car industries through the GFC. Both US and German wages outstripped Australian equivalents in the motor vehicle manufacturing industry and they both enjoy strong sectors.

Yet you sit back and say it was the Unions fault because that is your ideology. Willfully ignorant yet again.

Browsing in the EV trucks and buses already on the road, seems to highlight the view they will not take on is wrong
Progress will take place no matter how many excuses Hasbeen makes

Belly have you ever heard that you should compare apples with apples, not oranges.

Nordic countries have huge subsidies for electric cars, so they totally distort their market in favour of electric. This is simply a form of corruption, & I wonder how many Nordic advisers & politicians are no the take to give these subsidies. This is even worse when you realise batteries are at their worst in the cold.

This is my only complaint about electric cars. I personally don't give a damn what powers my shopping trolley, provided the total cost of any car is born by the buyer, not the poor long suffering tax payer.

If electric can become really useful, & price competitive, great. I will never drive one, as I don't pay more than $3000 for a shopping trolley, & I doubt they will get that cheap in my driving years. Even my lady, is doubting the sense in the cost of depreciation of her new cars. She is becoming envious of my 2002, slightly hail damaged low mileage insurance write off, Mazda 323, which has cost just a set of tyres in 5 years, not the $22500 depreciation hers have cost. Electric cars are much worse at the moment.

I do have a couple of 450 Km round trips a month, with no option of recharging, but if I really needed to, I could tow my 10KvA generator along in my trailer to sort that, otherwise I rarely do more than 100Km a day.

So mate, it is not ideology I have against electric, but economics, & I hate government ideology trying to force me into a blind alley of their corrupt choosing. If electric becomes competitive in it's own right great, I'm sure my grandkids won't care what drives their car, if we are still allowed to have a personal car by the time they are driving.

The car industry was a basket case at low exchange rates. It was only kept to give SA a reason to exist apart from a bit of agriculture and mining, and that largess now been replaced by defense spending and a very generous GST distribution.

Please, can anybody explain how 100% renewables are supposed to cheaply and get everyone's batteries charged overnight when their cars are at home? Shorten is away with the fairies on this.

Bespoke nuclear plants do cost a lot, but amortized over 80 years are cheap. Cookie-cutter models a la South Korea are much cheaper and SMR's are imminent, unlike affordable storage solutions.

When will a political party get real and bite the nuclear bullet before we wipe ourselves off the competitive world map? Shorten expects domestic consumers to suck up the renewables power cost to export industries, but isn't saying so.

Hasbeen I truly doubt you and I will live long enough to be forced to own an electric car
Too that second generation cars will more than cover your trip
Still dash to Grafton, a ten hour return trip, without other than a fuel stop
Meet Brother swap loads and return

I would tend to support any policy that might revive manufacturing in Australia.

We can't survive solely on digging holes, making lattes and flipping houses.

SteeleRedux,
'Twas speculation and high interest rates, rather than the mining boom, which pushed our dollar unsustainably high. Maybe if there'd been more time to adjust, our car industry would've survived. But that's far from certain. Putting cars together used to be a high value activity, but it's becoming a low value activity. China's taken most of the value out of value adding, and there's little value left in fabrication. Much more of the value is in intellectual property, and our manufacturers would be better off concentrating on R&D. But most are not.

Luciferase,
SA washout hard by economic policies being set to favour the eastern states. The defence spending and GST distribution are insufficient to make up for that.

>explain how 100% renewables are supposed to cheaply and get everyone's batteries charged overnight
Largely from wind power. But your question contains the false assumption that everyone will be recharging their batteries overnight. Many people have their cars at home during the day. And probably some will be recharged in car parks in the daytime.

>Bespoke nuclear plants do cost a lot, but amortized over 80 years are cheap.
Have any in the world lasted over fifty years yet? Most so far have had much shorter lifespans. 80 years may be a good target lifespan for a new one, but I'd be very wary of economic calculation based on that lifespan.

>Cookie-cutter models a la South Korea are much cheaper and SMR's are imminent, unlike affordable storage solutions.
SMRs have been imminent for twenty years. Meanwhile storage solutions are here and the cost is coming down rapidly.

Biting a nuclear bullet could result in very serious injury. Nuclear makes sense in countries that aren't so sunny and windy, but here it's just too expensive. If we want cheaper power, stopping the generation companies from manipulating the market is the most effective solution.

Aidan: "If we want cheaper power, stopping the generation companies from manipulating the market is the most effective solution."

Australia has an abundance of natural gas. It's a cleaner transition fuel. We should be using it to our national advantage.

Unfortunately, successive dumb Australian governments (apart from the WA Government) never put in place a domestic gas reservation policy. This has meant that practically all of our gas is now exploited by a cartel that exports it to Asia while creating an artificial shortage at home. We have allowed the LNG export cartel to attach our energy prices to the Asian gas price, basically giving away what should have been Australia's natural comparative advantage.

Australia needs to sort out its messed-up gas market as a national priority.

Ah, yes the night wind, Aidan, always there when needed!

On reactors, "technically, there is no age limit.": http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-plant-aging-reactor-replacement-/

If you don't know MSR's ARE imminent, you're asleep. Also, stymieing regulation around all nuclear is being demolished in the US to keep competitive with China and Russia. The US is to build four reactors in India, which mustn't know about all the cheap grid-storage options it will have at its disposal well before their reactors they are built?

Cheap grid-scale storage? Why is Germany building coal-power when multiple storage solutions supposedly exist? Yes, it will close those down as Russian gas fills the breach, but how will that help emissions?

Shorten's fairies will wreck the joint. Pity our grand-kids.

..typo....SMR's, of course, not only MSR versions such as Terrestrial Energy's. I think, Aidan, you confuse the perpetual imminence of fusion with small scale fission, which has been around for decades in nuclear shipping.

As you appear to have slept through SMR progress, here's a starting point to get up to speed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_small_modular_reactor_designs

Bozec, we have plenty of gas, but both the NSW & Vic governments have refused to allow the exploration or new harvesting of gas in their states. SA may have also banned harvesting of their gas.

They like to blame the export of gas for our local price & shortage, when it is actually their own damned policies.

Luciferase,
When the wind's not blowing it would come from storage (in hydro, battery, chemical and thermal forms). But there's usually some wind blowing.

Even where the life of nuclear power plants can be extended, that doesn't mean it's economic to do so.

I hope you're right about SMRs really being imminent this time. But even if they become available this year, it's likely to take several more years to get the costs as low as promised.

Economic conditions in India, which has a very high population, are very different to those in Australia.

Germany is not building coal power any more, and it plans to phase it out completely over the next twenty years.

_________________________

Hasbeen,
Reports of harvesting of gas being banned in SA are greatly exaggerated. Some restrictions were imposed to protect farmland and water after shonky operators interstate proved they couldn't be trusted. But there's still plenty of gas development in SA.

Down the rabbit-hole again, with Aidan in Wonderland :-)

Bozec think much like you in the matter of exporting our jobs
Unfortunately world trade has its say, and profit
We ar [this mornings news]seeing 200 jobs go offshore [again] as huggys nappys leaves for cheaper labour
No way consumers will boycott/not buy the cheaper product, or support Australian made, even if it is EV,s
We can only hope we can develop new jobs around new industry

A few points. Range of cars is increasing as designers learn how to
fit more cells in a given space. The new, only just been delivered
Hyundai Kona SUV has a range of 430 km.
From Sydney there are two chargers in Mittagong, an unknown number
in Goulburn, an unknown number in Canberra and the map of various
charger types can be seen on this map.

http://myelectriccar.com.au/charge-stations-in-australia/

The Queensland government has established a chain fo Chargers between
Brisbane and Cains and NRMA is doing the same in NSW.
It will take some time.
The car manufacturers are changing to electric cars already so there
will be no choice eventually.

Josephas, it is not to have 50% electric cars by 2030 but to have
50% sales of electric cars by then.

Is Mise, a friend has had a ieMEV Mitsubishi electric car for six years
and it has never been in for service. The brakes get hardky any use
because most braking is done by the regenerative braking.

Aiden, all cars could start charging at the same time as people use
timers to start after the off peak rate starts. Of course the control
could do it district by district.

Hasbeen, actually figures I have seen indicate that mine to pwr stn
to electricity to battery to wheels is more efficient than oil well
to refinery to petrol stn to ic engine to wheels.
The difference is largely in the ic engine heat loss.

Belly; Trips from Oslo to Tronheim is 450km, a trip Oslo to Stockholm
is 830 km so Norway is not as small as many think. Each stage is similar.

Hasbeen & Aiden; Wind Turbines can be started if they have the option
synthesised inertia fitted, but SA bought cheapies.

Joesphus; re batteries, my friend has had daily use and charge
recharge cycles for six years with only a very small reduction in capacity.

Bozec; There is a company in Melbourne building an electric delivery
van style vehicle with exchangeable bodies. Looks quite good but no details.

My friend has driven his car to work every day and weekends for six
years and it costs about $3 a week.
He thinks he might need new tyres in a couple of years and that will
be his total running costs.
Oh yes and he has never run out of battery.
I would buy one tomorrow if the prices were lower but $47k seems a bit
high at this stage. Had a look at the Hyundai iCONIC and I drooled
over it but sigh !

I too Bazz would buy one today if not for the price
Your post confirms they have a very important place now and in the future
We must learn to trust future technology as it will change our world

Belly: "We must learn to trust future technology as it will change our world."

Hydrogen fuel? Energy from thorium reactors?

There are a lot of possibilities out there but it all depends on economics.

Yes Belly they are promising. Only a few manufacturers have reached
the point of actually selling cars in Australia.
Tesla, Hyundai, BMW and Renault. Nissan not till next month.
Kia will have a car here end this year and Volkswagen, Audi unknown.
Overseas the majority have cars on the market. GM and Ford are the
major laggards.
There will be a problem with power supply for chargers but the demand
will only increase slowly so development should be able to keep up with it.
I can see a problem at certain times, with thousands of cars leaving
say Sydney at Easter and arriving 300km up the coast at almost the same time.
Locations will probably develop with large numbers of chargers.
Drivers will learn and stop and get a half charge when half discharged
and then bypass known places of charge congestion. The dash display
can tell you where chargers are located and which are in use.
The software that is being developed is becoming very clever.
I have seen a photo of a Norwegian charging station with at least eight
chargers, more out of sight. There were two Teslas and one Nissan Leaf.
People will adapt their behavior to suit the environment.

So here we go again. Instead of the industry funding charging stations, as with ICE engines, it is to be another cost to the tax payer & electricity users.

We will pay to subsidies these things whether we want them or not.

In Victoria the chargers are being installed by a commercial
company. Some being installed elsewhere by companies and the NRMA
in NSW.

Federal Election: Bill Shorten says 50% of cars sold in Australia will be electric by 2030 under Labor and will reduce carbon emissions by 20%.

Bill Shorten says...
What sort of way is that to start a sentence Josephus?

My cheap fuel sniffer car is an i30 turbo diesel and uses around 5.5 litres per 100ks;
- But my 6cyl Commodore uses about double that.
50% reduction what the hell?

I'll have to put a V12 Rolls Royce Merlin engine in the Commodore to make up for you little girls willing to bend over and pull your cheeks apart because 'the man Bill Shorten' said so.

Why do I imagine Bill as a cross dresser sensually rubbing his own nipples?
Sorry I digress;

And honestly I'd prefer not to buy Allah Ackbar oil too.
I'd argue we should sanction them for subsidising terrorism;
- But I don't believe in collective punishment against an entire nation of citizens.

Hasbeen in my view Bazz has introduced some balance in to this subject
ACC you too focus on blame Labor for your dislike of the whole idea
In fact if the ALP did not exist we would, at some future time, have EVs
Progress is not alien to humanity
It in fact is and always has been standard stuff
Our world is not able to forever run on oil and coal, not for a minute supporting the greens ban it now
But even if we continue to use it full on, without other fuels, it will run out
Costs to us? any thoughts on the current rate of tax we pay right now for oil based fuels?

You may be right Belly, we may run out of oil & coal eventually, but why go broke wearing ashes & sackcloth a hundred years before we need to.

The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones, & we will come up with a much better alternative to batteries long before we run out of fossil fuels. Did you know we stopped using commercial sailing ships while the wind was still blowing.

Electric cars are a blind alley today, just as they were in the 20s, & will disappear as they did back then. It is only the global warming scam, & crony capitalism that has them even being considered. Legislation on electric cars is to make cronies rich, not improve the weather.

The way the sun spots are going we are going to need a whole lot of heating which will require more electricity than windmills & solar panels can supply. There will be precious little to spare on charging car batteries.

Shortens 50% alternate power generation stupidity will have us in the Venezuela category of power reliability soon enough without adding millions of car batteries to be charged.

Now Hasbeen touched a point that politicians do not understand.
We are going to be short of electricity, definitely if Labour wins.
We will be short of electricity at night as any sailor can tell you
the wind drops off at night and output from wind turbines fall to the
square root of the fall in wind speed. ie half the wind 1/4 the electricity.
Labour's proposal is not for 50% electric cars but 50% of sales are
to be electric cars. Quite a different thing.
Alan Jones & others raving on about time to charge.
The largest batteries other than Tesla are 64KWhr.
A 10 amp power point in your garage will provide 64kwhr / 2.4 kw in
26 hours on the presumption that the battery is dead flat.
If you have a 15 amp power point that time is 17.7 hours.
A Nissan leaf from dead flat would take 14 hrs in a 10 amp pwr point.
If you found that was happening too often you can get larger chargers
but three phase connections would not be necessary. You just get an
industrial power socket installed for say 30 amp & buy suitable charger.
How often does your car gets into your garage with an empty tank.

My friend with the iEMEV charges every second day 10pm to 8am and the
charger stops sometime earlier than that. he doesn't know he is asleep.
By the way Belly he is one of our mob.

More;
The Grid operator in a report has warned that they are having
significant trouble keeping the network stable and reliable with the
increasing variable generators and they expect it to get worse when
other coal fired stations close. This situation started with the
closure of that Hazelwood station.
There is talk of demand control and I imagine electric car charging
would be a prime target. So you could get up one morning and find your
car only half charged.

What seems to be the way drivers use their cars is that if they have
gone somewhere distant and the return trip is greater than their range
they stop at an on the road charger and charge for the time to get
enough range to get home.
The dashboard displays that. Then they charge overnight.
Isn't that what you do with a petrol car ?
How many times do you undertake a return trip further than 430 km ?
Also in Europe many employers are installing chargers.
It looks like around 400km will be the range that most manufacturers
will settle on as a compromise.

More More;
Forgot to mention a Dutchman is about to arrive here in his Nissan Leaf
having driven from Holland to Asia.

http://tinyurl.com/yybt9s8r

Also a number of people have driven around Australia in Electric cars
with some difficulty of course but it will get easier.

We will not run out of electricity, we may pay more for or
Equally in time, it may get cheaper
Solar needs no wind, hydro needs no wind
The next generation batteries may hold much more power than we even think now
Nuclear, if we can sideline the fearmongers, could supply all our power on its own
Take the politics out of our power system and let science lead

Bazz,
>We are going to be short of electricity, definitely if Labour wins.
That's an absolutely ludicrous claim, considering Labor's planning to implement the NEG unlike the Libs who were too scared of Abbott's faction to implement their own policy.

>We will be short of electricity at night as any sailor can tell you the wind drops off at night
If you have a look at http://opennem.org.au (and uncheck all the boxes except wind) you'll see that wind doesn't usually drop off at night. If the past week's anything to go by, it's generally windier at night than in the daytime!

The wind drops off in high pressure conditions, but those tend to be sunny.

>There is talk of demand control and I imagine electric car charging would be a prime target.
>So you could get up one morning and find your car only half charged.
Demand control is NOT supply curtailment. With demand control, if you set your car to fully charge then it will fully charge. But if you set it to minimum half charge then when the wholesale price of electricity is high it will half charge, and when the wholesale price of electricity is low, it will fully charge.

Cheap rate electricity at fixed times of night is becoming a thing of the past. A flat rate seems to be prevalent at present, but charges based on the wholesale price are almost certainly the way of the future.

We have an election coming, we are watching the coalition get near to war, again, on the coal mine in QLD
Anything can be said about power right now, and is/has and will be
Indeed that issue, climate change energy policy has bought more lies to the surface than any other
It was the reason Turnbull fell
It may, yes true, kill any chance Scomo has, if it explodes again
But beneath it all the world is progressing
EVs will not come by a huge millions of cars overnight
It will come one step at a time, but come it will

Internal combustion engines will be around for a while yet and steam looks good as always.

Anyone undertaking a long trip away from the grid can tow a light trailer with a generator powered by an IC or a steam engine to keep the power up, probably even be able to do it on the move, sort of a hybrid.

Peter O'Brien, quite a canny commentator, sees Shorten's electric car brainstorm as “just an election-mode sop to the Greens (which will) never come to fruition.” Shorten is a “shameless promise-anything huckster”, who most voters will treat with cynicism. (Allowing for a few believe-any nonsense OLA posters). We are back to pink batts and doorless school halls.

O'Brien said that he looked in vain for the red press and the ABC to comment on Shortens “egregious gaffe” about charging an EV in a few minutes. Most people (again with the exception of a few OLO posters) will have noticed this stupid error, and will not have much faith in anyone who can be so stupid. The government hasn't bothered to react to the hare-brained scheme of a Labor government actually installing charging centres around our huge country. It's a wonder there hasn't been a suggestion that residents living on main roads could, as a business enterprise, throw a power cord over the front fence for the use of anyone cranky enough to embark on a long journey in an electric car.

IsMise;
At an electric car day a few years back Blade Electric who used to do
conversions had a trailer just like you mentioned for when he sold
a car in Melbourne. Not sure if he ran the generator while driving.

Got to laugh, the bitter blind hate of Labor seems to have a roll in what people think of electric cars
And quoting a reporter totally without any integrity is fun too
Yes that trailer could charge as it drove but surely generators will remain in at least some electric cars and trucks
Sydney has buses running on batteries and it is not the only world city that will do so
Batteries are here, use of them will grow,technology will improve, lets leave politics, highlighting blind politics, out of it

Belly,

How can we leave politics out of it? ; politics is what started this thread.

Yea just what I want, to have to tow a trailer everywhere. I can imagine my lady backing her electric bit of uselessness with a trailer on it.

As for running the gen set while towing it, instead of running a single cylinder inefficient gen set engine, why not run a nice modern efficient ICE engine, & drive the wheels with that, much more economical.

But why stop at towing a gen set. I've got a car trailer, I could tow another electric car behind, & swap cars around when the first goes flat. It will do that pretty quickly too, towing. I recall my 2WD Hilux ute used 11L/100Km normally, & between 19 & 26 L/100Km when towing, depending on the trailer.

Sorry Belly, but any bloke who would rip off his union members when their leader is totally untrustworthy, & is now proving himself a total fool as well as a liar. Shorten is proving the best thing Morrison has going for him. Kind of like Hillary.

What surprises me is that Labour made a policy of it.
It was necessary as electric cars will come as the production problem
is overcome. A couple of surveys have indicated that many people are
putting off buying cars until the electrics arrive. I believe there has
been a fall in sales, although that might be due to economic uncertainty.
I think those waiting will be disappointed with the prices.
The theory is that as supply chains get organised prices will creep down.
2025 is forecast as the parity date.

In the US and UK there has been a survey of dealer salesmen attitude.
In some cases they do not even tell customers that they have electric
cars for sale. They are protecting their service depts.
Interestingly the Hyundai dealer quoted $130 for regular service for
the electric iONOQ which is the same as my local Toyota dealer for my Corolla.
I suspect the service will be connect the laptop and check, err jsu what !
They hardly use the brakes at all with one pedal driving.

Should have been policy was UNnecessary---

Hasbeen, that trailer episode was 8 or 10 years ago.
There were no charging facilities then.
They were just a band of hobbyists converting cars quite successfully
I might add, despite having to use lead acid batteries.
They also had to breakdown the bureaucratic nonsense to get them registed.
Forms HAD to be filled in fully, what were the exhaust nitrous oxide
readings ?
How many cylinders ? etc etc. They finally beat them down.

Labor must think there are votes in it, and in truth there are
See not all of us are convinced we can go on forever not caring about our footprint not caring about our climate
Even you Bazz have warned about peak oil,we can do verbal combat about if it is here now
But we can not deny it will as it must, come
Put your self in others minds, those minds that do not see it as a silly idea and you may see it had to come one day

I've been in the age bracket that have towed a caravan around Australia and met thousands doing the same, in the next 20 years that will be a lifestyle of the past. So all those caravan industries will be into manufacturing electric motor homes for the retired elite big pensioner politicians. Such luxuries us bludger pensioners will not be able to afford. I live on the coast and every 3rd home has a sea going boat to be towed that also will be an enjoyable sport of the past unless they leave them at water front slips. A new industry accommodating those thousands of boats at the water front marina. Marine sales will occupy water front yards, closing down land based service and sale centres, with wave motion charging stations. Any boat or jet ski with speed will be outlawed because of its speed, noise or wave causing motion. The current fossil fuel industry will close by 2040 as we appease the Greens.

Say the average car lasts 22 years, [cars purchased before 1997] which by deduction means all cars registered in 2042 [the next 22 years] will be electric, so half the cars by 1930 will be electric, not just those sold in the next 11 years. A car older than 22 years is hardly registerable, and hardly tradeable unless for spare parts. So the theory that there will be only a few electric cars on the road by 2030, if the Government by law deems it so, means half cars sold must be electric, also means half the cars on the road in Australia will be electric. Logic!

Josephus said;
also means half the cars on the road in Australia will be electric. Logic!
No Josephus, say no electrics were sold between now and 2030 then
there would still only be 2% on the road.

If you want to tow a boat or caravan etc or need a tradies ute then
buy a fwd diesel or large car or ute.
Toyota is not making electric cars so will a number of others.
Some manufacturers such as Volvo and VW will only be making electrics
or so they say at the moment.

There is a little nagging worry in the oil industry.
The economics of fracking wells is such that almost none of the
companies that went into the tight oil business have made a profit.
They sell off their drilling rights to newcomers so that it has
all become a Ponzi scheme.
In the meantime crude oil production has continued a slow decline
until just recently when there was a bump up.
The industry is getting concerned about possible shortage of supply.
Australia is probably in a worse position because of dependency on
one refinery in Singapore and one in Sth Korea.
Government has done nothing to comply with the 3 month stocks.
We just have about two weeks supply.

I do not think that a change to electric cars is driven by global
warming worries, I suspect that it is driven by the attitude of
companies such as Shell and BP. They probably have put their heads
together and come to some conclusions they do not want to make public.

That seems a bit conspiracy like but it is too low key.

Recently Saudi Aramco has offered bonds for sale. When they went onto
the market, they had to reveal for the first time, their resources.
The reality was that they had less resources and production ability
than had been previously presumed.

So watch this space, as they say !

Norway has the highest concentration of EVs, thanks to government largesse with taxpayers’ money. Like all information from green fanatics, figures are very rubbery, and the closest to the truth for numbers is somewhere between 10% - 30%. But, as one of the very costly measures adopted by the extremely socialist government is the waiving of registration for EVs, the real figures would be very hard to get.

The nutty Norwegians have also waived all import duties on EVs, waived road tolls, granted free passage on ferries, and the use of bus lanes in congested cities for EVs.

On the other hand, conventional cars are heavily taxed, and very expensive: a Ford SUV costing over 200% more than it does in the U.S.

Would loony Labor, front organisation for the Greens, need to do the same thing to effect this totally unnecessary, extremely expensive EV mania?

Probably, if their past performances are anything to go by. We will never have another auto manufacturing industry, thanks to the increasing energy prices engineered by both sides of politics; so, how hard would it be to tax all imported conventional vehicles out of the market, and let in the EVs for nix!

It is fun, truly, watching some target Labor and ignoring this truth
A sensible center exists, it is made up of voters from both sides
And that center is concerned, about fuels and power for the next hundred years
Look at the last one hundred years,see the progress, the very invention of the motor car
Planes, the end of steam powered ships
Our entry in to space
Who can tell what will be achieved in the next one hundred years
What will, not may, will replace the emerging EVs

ttbn,
Your claim that registration is waived for EVs in Norway is totally wrong. The number registered can be found on the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway

Norway's incentives for EVs do appear excessive, but they are intended to be temporary.

Belly,

There is no danger of Australia running out of coal or gas, even if our entire energy production was from such sources for the next century.

There would no danger of Australia running out of uranium, even if our entire energy production was from such sources for the next century.

I'm not suggesting that any new nuclear energy plants should use the sixty-year-old technology of Chernobyl (which was being dismantled at the time it blew up thirty three years ago this month). Or the fifty-sixty-year-old technology of Three Mile Island.

After careful thought, I would not recommend the construction of a nuclear plant like at Fukushima, on the beach in a tsunami-prone coastline, and near tectonic fault-lines.

No, if anything, I would recommend the application of the latest nuclear technology, away from fault-lines and tsunami-prone coasts. Is there anywhere in Australia which might meet those criteria ? Areas away from coasts which have never (or at least for a billion years) been prone to earthquakes ? Any inland areas in Australia which may not have ever experienced earthquakes ? And away from population centres as well ?

Gosh, I wonder if anybody has ever thought about this.

Joe

How will Labor, the most rapacious of tax collectors, replace the very lucrative fuel exercise if, as they claim, 50% of vehicle sales will be EVs by 2030?

Does anyone think that they will just say “Ah, well”, and let the loss of revenue just slide? The loss of revenue could be as high as $5 billion a year.

At the moment, the cheapest EV is $40,000: a Hyandai that not many of our big-mouth big-timers would not be happy driving. As with all climate change mania, we are talking about cost, cost, cost.

The Australian RET agency suggests that to achieve 50% EV sales by 2030, stamp duty and registration would have to be waived (as per Norway). Which poor mugs would have to pick up that loss of revenue. We already have people who cannot afford solar panels paying for those who can.

Chief Scientist Alan Finkel found a 20 per cent electric vehicle uptake could account for four per cent of grid demand. More demand for electricity. But then, he is the same bloke who can't tell how much difference, if any, the huge cost of reducing a bit of CO2 will make to the climate.

At the moment, and into the foreseeable future, Green Labor policies are pure twaddle - but very, very expensive twaddle.

Joe said;
Gosh, I wonder if anybody has ever thought about this.

Well Joe, I can assure you that plenty have thought of that.
I can assure you that no politician has every had such a thought !

I like electric cars, especially those that use an IC or steam engine to drive a generator that supplies 100% of the vehicle's electric needs.
Final drive by electricity gets rid of a lot of transmission problems and allows selective use of the drive when a wheel starts to slip.

Loudmouth my view exactly never even thought we should make the same mistakes
We however, you never know, see in 50 years coal and oil banned world wide

Coal and oil will never be banned Belly. Their usage may change due to
rising costs. Too many are making the mistake of believing that all
this kurfuffle about electric cars is to do with CO2 reduction.
That is merely a way to suck the greenies in.

When Royal Shell Oil announced that they were doing planning for
leaving the oil industry it started a lot of people rethinking the future.
They then found BP and Mobil had similar thoughts for the longer term.
It would have been interesting to have been a fly on a few boardroom walls.
Both Shell & BP have announced every one of their service stations
worldwide will have chargers. I have only seen one mention of a Shell charger.

Whoops, I spoke too soon, here is a Shell chargers;

http://tinyurl.com/yyt97awp

Bazz,

Is it possible that the big oil companies are switching to renewables for the subsidies, and the price-gouging opportunities ? And if we switch over to electric cars, how much more electricity would be needed to charge them up each night, instead of the petrol needed now for our 17 million cars ?

So how much more subsidies would have to be offered to those companies to generate enough electricity for all our new needs, at even higher prices ?

My limited understanding about batteries for electric cars is that they need some very rare elements to operate, and which are very costly to extract, not to mention the cost in disposing of them at the end of their lives. i.e. cost in CO2 production.
So how much CO2 is required in the production of components for the batteries of, say, a single electric car ? x 17,000,000 ? Every five or ten years ?

Of course, we know that those batteries will be produced - and dismantled - overseas, mostly likely in China or India. And we know that the CO2 produced stays within the boundaries of the country where it is produced, by some strange Newtonian geographical process.

Sorry, i can't take all this seriously.

Joe

"Is it possible that the big oil companies are switching to renewables for the subsidies, and the price-gouging opportunities"

Oh C'mon, Big Oil has a deep concern for man's welfare. It's not just renewables but the need for backup fuels it wants to help out with too!

some are not debating EVs, they are defending anti science anti change pro fossil fuels
Yet EVs are coming they can no longer be stopped Bazz first mentioned the one about to arrive here after driving halfway around the world
25 years from now those who may read our thoughts will be amused by the degree of refusal to adopt change, even invite it

When all else fails there is always steam propulsion.
Some farmers use steam tractors for ploughing and all general farm needs.
They grow their own fuel, can produce their own lubricants (if needs be) and can do all their own repairs, and use rainwater in the boiler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFjSYc0Xjjk

Hello Joe,
As far as the elecricity supply capability goes, I think the build up
of the EV fleet will be so slow that the electrical industry will meet
the challenge.
If there is a shortage the public demand will be so overwhealing that
government will act.
I think that are some problems with the time to build power stations.
Against that the increase in Evs will be quite slow.

I have been thinking about the last two or three years;
1. Oil companies talk publically about exiting the oil industry. About 5 years ago
2. A couple of companies start making noises about Evs. About 2005. Mitsubishi & Nissan.
3. Suddenly all companies start announcing a full switch from IC to Evs. Just the last two years.
4. Chinese car manufacturers build large factories for Evs and sales take off.

Do you think that there could be some co-ordination in all that ?
When you think about it, here are the world’s largest companies
deciding to dump their whole manufacturing technolgy and go off in
quite a different direction, and abandon their whole service industry
backup. The dealers, mechanics etc have been on the media talking
about how their industry will collapse.
It won’t disappear but will be very much smaller.

Regarding batteries, cobalt is one metal that is used but I saw an
article the other day that a battery manufacturer has developed a way
to not use cobalt.
In the US there are EV battery exchange shops where they take your
battery find the bad cells and replace them and put them into their stock.
Hyundai gives an eight year guarantee on the battery.

You could be right about the grid to supply a large number of cars
overnight. This will happen very slowly and as substations reach the
maximum load of the transformers they will change them.
Don't worry about them they will be making the money that the oil
companies are losing. Not an equal amount of course but the difference
goes into our pockets.

Lots of waffle about charge times on the TV.
It is quite simple. If you have a 30kwhr battery and use a normal
GPO (General Purpose Outlet) which is 10 amp. That means maximum
240v x 10amp = 2.4kw. 30 / 2.4 = 12.5 hours from no charge to full charge.
If you have a 15 amp GPO, ie the one with the wide earth pin, then
240v x 15amp = 3.6kw. 30 / 3.6 = 8.333 hours from no charge to full charge.
Now if you manage your car properly you will not arrive home and have
to push your car into the garage. So whatever charge is left in your
car, say 10% then the time to recharge is 90% of the maximum time.

Not hard is it, so Bill was right 8 minutes if it was only slightly
discharged !
Politicians !

All motor vehicle propulsion systems do not feel the same and although I like electric and steam for their smooth delivery of power , they are totally unlike a good IC car to drive, especially at speed on a winding and hilly road.

Oh yes Ismise the electric car feels different and much better.
Not that I have had the opportunity for a long country drive.
But I was impressed with the Leaf.

I should have mentioned in my last post that for home charging you can
buy a charger to suit your needs. They seem to come in various power
ratings. If you do not have a 15 amp gpo you may have to get an
electrician to rerun the wiring in a larger size for a 15 amp gpo.
Alternatively you could get a two or three phase socket in your garage
if you really need a still faster charger.
Trickle charging overnight is ideal as it is reputed to give longer
life time of the battery. Probably because of lower temperature rise.

Treasurer has launched a hollow insult/attack on Labor or its policy on EVs
But neglected to tell us he drives one
Such things happen when you put politics ahead of science

Belly, pleases explain what's hollow about this from Frydenberg:

"There's going to be more demand on the grid from some of these types of reforms. They haven't costed the backup and storage that's needed, they haven't costed what the impact on the change in the existing energy mix is."

Here is an article about 350Kw chargers.
It makes my hair curl to think about that.

http://tinyurl.com/y2zxtjhs

Putting that much current into the battery must produce a lot of heat.
350Kw at 400 volt is 875 amps ! The cable would be very heavy.
Perhaps too heavy for lady drivers.
I find it hard to believe.
It would fully charge the Hydundai iCONOQ in 15 minutes from flat.
Perhaps that was what Electric Bill was talking about.

Yes Bazz, you can do all sorts of things, if you have the power available.

Our single phase supply is fully used by all the pumps & things you need when you don't have town water or sewerage. We cannot power even a moderate size air conditioning unit in my granny flat. All the reverse cycle, which we wanted, draw too much current. We need an extra drain like a hole in the head

We have been advised it is unlikely an extra phase will become available in my life time.

With the stupidity of windmills surely we don't need to add even more stupid government chosen mistakes to our lives.

Hasbeen, I don't know the rules in Qld but I thought that there was a
generally minimum service obligation to supply an adequate supply to Australian standards.
ie the voltage should remain within certain limits etc etc.

L see this mornings SMH for a review of his car wreck interview on QxA
We no longer make cars here, so will drive what others make
Power? we are told by conservatives we need to build more coal fired power stations
Build them!
Coal nuclear wind solar just build them
We will you know, as we grow we must
We will meet the market and have some type of power to fill any hole

Belly,

Tony Jones commandeered too many questions towards his own agenda of superficial gotchas, IMO, when the truth is more nuanced. Do you beat your wife stuff. Audience hostility was palpable, with several questions barely disguised diatribe. The Coalition is up against it, that's certain.

It's Shorten's job to explain how his target towards low baseload interacts with rising electricity demand for his targeted EV penetration. But he won't have to do that, as mere hand-waving appears quite acceptable from an opposition full of promises and lies.

On hand-waving, and off topic, I'm still trying to work out how abolition of negative-gearing creates revenue over the long-term, or even the short-term given grand-fathering of the policy for current investors.

As a self-funded retiree, at least until Labor taxes my backside off and I too qualify for the pension I will fund others with more than my GST, I feel subject to class hatred imbued by Shorten into our youth (as epitomised by some callow comments/questions to raptuous applause on Q&A).

I was a working man and supported Labor from Hawke through to Gillard paying my way with taxes, local state and federal, but now feel like a pariah. The young must grow older experiencing the pain of socialism (a la Venezuela) to truly understand the path we appear to be embarking upon with modern Labor/Greens.

Aside from the imputation credit double taxation scandal the rule that
really gets up my nose even though it no longer applies to me is the
"industry Super Funds" are exempt from the imputation credit double
taxation. Other super funds are not exempt !

What kick back did Bill Shortan get for that from the unions ?

Hasbeen and others; I have remembered a news item about charging
stations of a particular brand that were all closed.
It appears that there was a problem with the cooling liquid that is
fed through the cable connection to the car.
That must be how they keep the weight of the cable manageable.
TMB.
TMB = The Mind Boggles

Oh dear another complication. It appears that the remaining Australian
refineries cannot justify converting for Labour's fuel emission
standards. If they close how will Labour force the Singapore and Korean
refineries to produce to Labour's standards ?

Most of our petrol is imported from those refineries.
Might be time to start looking at electric cars--grin !

http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/norway-is-walking-away-from-billions-of-barrels-of-oil-20190409-p51c70.html
Dare we ignore this
Do we just say they are insane?
Just maybe the future is very close right now

Oil is also used in transmissions, gear boxes, hydraulics and on load bearing bearings. Therefore heavy oils will be used for some time to come.

http://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/06/australian-ev-market-study-report.pdf
Many here will want to avoid, at all costs, this link
Seems the fraud of a government, for quite some time, has had the same target, *50 percent EVs by 2030* as Labor
Wake up those who are slamming the ALP for having the very same target this fraudulent mob have

Belly, the differences are

1) Labor/Greens will subsidize EV's to the back teeth with your money. The Coalition will leave EV's to happen more organically.

2)Labor/Greens renewables policy outbids the Coalition by double yet has no viable storage solution, nor guarantee of backup gas supply, needed to cheaply deliver charging capacity on top of normal electricity demand growth.

None of this is to say EV's are bad. Shorten is just adding to his credentials as an energy nincompoop, on top of his belief you can charge-up in minutes and go. His expertise lies more in dudding union members, as highlighted in a Royal Commission.

I wonder now many Labor politicians will buy an EV before the election to show us that that they are serious. How many Green politicians already have them? Should be 100%.

Cash, mouth open, near screaming, eyes that show hate, even a contempt for the truth
Morrison is dragging this woman around the country to?
Be hostile, unhinged, about EVS
Trying to tell us the ute is dead, murdered by Labor
Yet we right now have busses that are EVs
The above link, it screams what are you on about lady?
YOUR party too has 50 percent by 2030 as its target/policy
How will YOU power them?
Call the election, end this taxpayer funded million dollars a day spending on advertising for this fraud of a government

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/labor-s-vehicle-carbon-target-would-save-motorists-27-5-billion-20190410-p51coz.html
Go on I dare you
Read the figures, understand they are from this government
Tell me are we saying Labor is wrong but the government is lying?
Read the link, find another fear campaign this one has flat tyres and spares

http://www.smh.com.au/national/don-t-buy-the-scare-against-electric-vehicles-20190409-p51cea.html
This thread has stopped galloping, most dead horses do
It was aimed, by at least some contributors, as a to to condemn Labor
As the falsehood, pure lies Cash and others have used is unmasked we see less interest?
Or is the truth unwanted

Belly, Shorten's claim is futuristic, as is the article you refer to.

From http://techcrunch.com/2016/12/29/how-fast-is-fast-charging/ :

"At a Level 1 wall outlet, it generally takes overnight — or longer — to charge up a depleted EV battery. At a Level 2 charger, it takes overnight, more or less, to fully charge. At a Level 3 station, a battery can be recharged up to 80 percent usually in under an hour."

What do you think the average Joe's home charger would achieve? That's what Shorten was the context of the question Shorten was asked. More:

" ....here are some specifics as reported by the manufacturers:

Tesla Model S: 120 kw Supercharger station, to 80 percent charged in 40 minutes
Jaguar I-PACE concept EV: 50 kw Level 3 station, to 80 percent in 90 minutes
Chevy Bolt: 50 kw Level 3 station, 90 miles in 30 minutes
Nissan Leaf: 50 kw Level 3 station, 80 percent in 30 minutes"

Whatever Shorten asserts, I care not how long charging takes as much as I do about the system's capacity to charge. The further we deplete baseload the more pie-in -the-sky any push towards high EV penetration becomes because there is no viable storage solution, nor guarantee of backup gas supply, needed to cheaply deliver charging capacity on top of normal electricity demand growth. Furthermore, there is unlikely to be.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/coal-power-baron-says-electric-vehicles-an-inevitability-20190409-p51cak.html
Fossil fuel funding EVs? see link
Surely one of the weakest, and there have been many, fear and loathing campaigns this weak and dieing government ever thought up

Shorten has spoken, all bow down.

is mise, you have my regards, that and so very many other posts, is showing us you know nothing about politics
and too fail to understand Labor is not about to win the election
Your colorless mob has conceded defeat

If you simply want to move emissions out of urban areas to where the electricity is generated, fine, subsidize to that pointless end. If you want to impact on electricity generation emissions generally, there are better ways to spend public money.

http://contrarian.live/2019/04/11/swedish-study-on-ev-co2-footprint-will-surprise/?fbclid=IwAR05D6lpyFUJgw70Z8JaT4Ln6XQG3uwZW6z7YGL2qJ1rr1ujNjoSMNpGXpk

I think we are overlooking something, while the scare campaign has failed
First no one will be marched in to car sales yards and forced to buy an EV
But how will future governments taxus,29 billion dollars, that is how much tax petroleum products bring in
As we will, without doubt, move on the EVs will maturity win? will EVs be allowed to be cheaper? will another way of taxing us be found
We live in interesting times

"APRIL 11 2019 - 10:30PM
NSW Taxi Council floats possibility of electric Bathurst taxis"

http://www.westernadvocate.com.au/story/6023061/nsw-taxi-council-floats-possibility-of-electric-bathurst-taxis/?cs=115

Now, here's where EVs would shine, and charging between trips would be no problem.

Agree buses already and some trucks do so
It is unwise to measure support for new technology by today's standards
That too will develop as the market does

http://www.tesla.com/en_AU/supercharger

"Plug in for about 30 minutes and grab a cup of coffee or a quick bite to eat while you charge"

Not even a Tesla Supercharger claims a 100% charge in 8-10 mins, let alone a home charge system.

Nothing wrong with EV's, but on the facts there is no basis for subsidizing them or putting taxes/impediments in front of those who want/need ICE's, which will surely come. I repeat my previous link highlighting little carbon abatement will come from greater EV penetration,
http://contrarian.live/2019/04/11/swedish-study-on-ev-co2-footprint-will-surprise/?fbclid=IwAR05D6lpyFUJgw70Z8JaT4Ln6XQG3uwZW6z7YGL2qJ1rr1ujNjoSMNpGXpk

Luciferase, electric cars are not about co2 abatement but about cheaper
motoring and a more usable driving system.
It will take some years for the capital costs to fall, about 2025 is
the prediction.
The Nissan Leaf has been awarded the cheapest car to run in the market.
Not as cheap as my mates, zero dollars in six or 7 years.

Most of the waffle is about time to charge.
What must be understood is that because you can charge at home and
that is what the vast majority will do it changes everything.
When you need to get more range, for example you are more KM from home
than your dashboard tells you have in the battery you go to a public charger.
Isn't that what you do with a petrol car ?
You do not set the charger to charge the battery to full charge but
enough to get you home. Two reasons for this, less time on the charger
perhaps five minutes instead of 40 minutes and cheaper.
Also less time on fast charger better for battery life.
When you get home you then plug in your home charger.

It is a new way to manage your car. It will take some getting used to.

No argument about running cost, Bazz, and fuel diversity is worthwhile too from a national security standpoint.

However, given the info from the Swedish study, why a subsidy what won't work much towards reducing world emissions through EV usage, and especially where the main electricity source is fossil-fueled? Even in Norway (hydro) the break-even emissions point for EV's is up towards 100K kilometres (see the link).

Admittedly, because batteries are manufactured overseas, Oz is not responsible for their manufacturing carbon footprint but why encourage EVs with public money when much more abatement overall can be achieved by investing the same public money more effectively?

Carbon abatement policies on all sides in Parliament is run on ideology, not facts. Australia is so screwed.

Modernisation will not be stalled or driven by costs
In the end profits will always drive change EVs are coming change always is

I like electric cars but they are boring to drive.

Thanks for the thread t has been interesting and in about ten years, with the introduction well under way we can have fun, looking back at this
Failed scare campaign, even failed untruths,deliberate untruths
But for sure and certain we are headed for an EV in most homes

You don't have to be Nostradamus to know EV's will be a big part of future urban transport, at least. However, will Gov't force the issue with subsidies and disincentives to drive ICE's, as has been applied in Norway? At least they have hydro to balance the carbon equation (from manufacture to grave) whereas Oz will run on fossil fuels for a long time ahead making the equation barely marginal. My prediction is the poorer will subsidize the richer, as has been the case with PV installations.

Belly,
>But for sure and certain we are headed for an EV in most homes
t's not certain at all. With driverless Ubers around, it may be that most homes don't have cars at all

Aidan,

Many years ago a friend of mine worked it out that if he didn't buy a new car he could take taxis, when necessary, on the interest.
He lived in Marrickville, Sydney and was close to public transport for getting to work or going to the city.