Hey Canem Malum,

"They didn't seem to see the second order effect coming."

They try to say that but I'm not sure that explanation is reasonable or not.

"The problems with our energy infrastructure cannot be (but often are) underestimated- as Elon Musk says "we have to solve this problem"- but though I respect Musk's work- I have to side with the Malthusian view in this case that "the power of population is too powerful for technology". The only fix is one that fixes the population. But this is a 'necessary but not sufficient condition'."

Had to look that up - 'Mathusian Trap'.
http://www.thwink.org/sustain/glossary/MalthusianTrap.htm

Seems reasonable enough...

- In modern times 'Post Industrial' does Energy as a value replace Food? -

And one thing that came to mind in regards to population growth;

- What are the statistics for growth rates in western countries? -

I'm pretty sure that growth rates in western countries were historically reducing anyway, and so it seems as though western nations want more immigration for growth which is needed to service national debt.

Does servicing increasing national debt promote an artificial need for population growth?

Gotta ask the question - would there be any need for any of the global scaremongering campaigns if western countries were just left to level out population instead of allowing immigration to bolster growth?

I think we can do heaps better with energy as Musk says.
- We just need to think and go about it a little differently -

For example why aren't there more water wheels along creeks and other water flowing infrastructure? Why don't houses have more little wind generators on them?

The government should bulk buy a billion dollars worth of this stuff, (container loads not assembled) sell to citizens at cost and have 'work for the dole' help install it'.

Instead of whippersnipping show them how to install a water wheel or turbine and generate power for a community, make them learn to do something to inspire them that's useful.

My theory 'We're not trying hard enough and we're lead by government incompetence'.

Armchair Critic- Thanks as always for your feedback.

Armchair Critic- The only reason I focused on the Energy issue is because it's relevant to the relationship between the Middle East and the West. Food is relevant to world population but this is not specific to the Middle East.

I'm sure increasing National Debt is a factor but immigration would create a debt spiral. We probably would be wise to address the underlying cause of the debt.

I like water wheels and turbines they're in the Megawatt range. In Australia turbines could be a good source of energy given we live close to the sea. The issue with renewables is storage as discussed in previous threads. At this stage this storage problem is the deal breaker.

But I would like to see more communities that are self sufficient and self managing so this means having local infrastructure- rather than "big utilities".

SteeleRedux Congratulations you have now provided two links that are 6 months old, and 1 more recent as well as two alleged articles with no date or link, to fake news that in no way proves that every article published on those sites is fake news.

You get the same reply another troll received.

SteeleRedux You attack the source of the article rather than discuss the contents. Where an article or topic originates from is totally irrelevant to the forum, we are here to discuss the topic you can't do that so attack where it came from.

This thread was approved by a moderator, so you want to set yourself higher than the moderator and say threads can only come from certain news sources approved by who? You (Don't make me laugh)

I post threads here for people to discuss not for idiots like you who want to troll, out of the last 10 threads under General Discussion 6 of them I started 4 were by others. ** By your warped logic none of them should be here. **

I would like to remind people where they are, notice near the top of this page.

The Forum
On line opinion's article discussion area.

Maybe in future you will remember that.

SteeleRedux Fake news by MSM.

The mainstream media is the primary source of the most harmful, most inaccurate news ever.

Isn’t it ironic how the mainstream media has the nerve to lecture everyone else about “fake news” when they are the primary source of fake news on a consistent basis stretching back years?

The most harmful fake news is routinely published by the mainstream media. They are the main progenitors of fake news.

– The fake news that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that Iraq was involved in 9/11, dutifully regurgitated without question by the mainstream media, resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, thousands of dead and injured U.S. troops, and the destabilization of an entire continent.

– The fake news that the rebels in Syria were “moderates” who did not have jihadist sympathies and should be supported led to the destruction of Syria, Libya and the rise of ISIS.

– The fake news narrative that the media was balanced in its coverage of the presidential election was completely obliterated when Wikileaks emails revealed that countless mainstream media reporters were in bed with the Clinton campaign, feeding them debate questions beforehand and conspiring with Hillary’s staff to portray her in a positive light.

– The fake news that George Zimmerman was obsessed with Trayvon Martin’s race before the altercation that led to Martin’s death was accomplished by means of NBC deceptively editing an audio tape. This incident stoked racial tensions across the country and laid the groundwork for the violent ‘Black Lives Matter’ movement that was to follow.

– The fake news that produced the “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative, which was proven to be completely fraudulent, led to riots, violent attacks and looting in Ferguson, Missouri, as well as numerous other U.S. cities. Even after the rioting began, the mainstream media continued to legitimize the unrest. Fake news outlets continued to parrot the “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative even after it was proven false.

Con't

Con't

– The fake news that saw innumerable people accused of rape at college campuses across America, claims that were proven wrong, ruined people’s lives and perpetuated the myth (fake news) that one in five women are raped on college campuses.

– The fake news that George W. Bush served dishonorably during his time in the Air National Guard was broadcast by CBS News with the aid of fake documents. In circulating this fake news, CBS tried to influence the 2004 presidential election but only ended up crucifying their own credibility, leading to Dan Rather’s resignation six months later.

– The fake news that NBC anchor Brian Williams faced enemy fire while helicoptering into Iraq in 2003 was exposed when soldiers who were aboard the helicopter blew the whistle on his lies. Despite admittedly putting out fake news, Williams still has a career in broadcast journalism.

– The fake news narrative that Donald Trump somehow represents the next coming of Hitler has provoked a hysterical anti-Trump hate crime wave across America, with people and property being attacked on a routine basis. The same hysterical fake news narrative was also responsible for violence and riots at Trump events throughout the campaign cycle, as well as assassination attempts on Trump’s life.

– The fake news that Donald Trump had no chance whatsoever of winning the presidential election was proudly pushed by countless mainstream media outlets, with the Huffington Post even predicting that Hillary Clinton had a 98% chance of winning the presidency. When this fake news narrative was completely demolished on November 8, it swept away trust in political polling and the mainstream media to an even greater degree, prompting the backlash that you now see with the corporate press calling everyone else “fake news” when they are the real fake news.