25 hours before voting closes but we know the results
Was it a Labor victory, or was it a rejection of Liberal policies
Are there long term messages for any party
What won, and lost the election
What are, if any, the impacts on next years federal election
How can that election be won or lost?

Belly,
No, it was not a Labor Victory, it was a victory for the hangers-on & a massive loss for integrity.

There is not much to “take” about, with Labor looking to have a 60 seat majority. And , the only excuse coming from the Liberals is the sacking of Turnbull, an event that has nothing to do with state politics. They will now move further to the left, and Victoria will eventually be a one-party state like China, a great friend to Victoria, apparently.

The sooner the Liberal party dies and Australians have the benefit of a real, conservative option to Labor the better. Andrews’ incompetence and big spending should would have seen Labor reduced to the rump that the Liberals will now be, under normal circumstances. This result shows what a sorry state that the Liberal party is in.

Dear Belly,

The Victorian Government focused on the practical:
upgrading hospitals, new schools, the removal
of level crossings, a huge infrastructure program.
People will overlook many failings if they see
things happening. The Andrews Government did
what it said it would do. It kept its promises.

The mistake that Matthew Guy made was run a fear
campaign that crime was out of control. This
rhetoric did not convince a more sophisticated
electorate. Also, he said that he would get rid
of the safe injection rooms in Richmond as soon
as the Liberals got into office. Richmond used
to be a safe Liberal seat. It went to Labor at
this election. Those injection rooms are working.
Lives are being saved.

You'd think that the Liberals would learn something
from this election - but as we can see on the news -
the "blame game" has already started. To their
detriment, it appears that they will learn nothing
from this. Part of the problem is, as many have
tried to point out - they are about an identity
crisis facing the Liberal Party across the nation.

Matthew Guy is a moderate but his party is increasingly
divided along lines familiar in Canberra. A segment
of the party is far to the right of the electorate
and to "play" to that segment alienates others.

As Liberal MP in Victoria (one of my favourites -
she used to be in my electorate) Mary Wooldridge
said - the party needs to go back to its base.
The Liberals used to be a "broad church" with a
variety of opinions. At the time of Menzies it was
a "Liberal" party. It was not a right-wing
conservative party. If they keep doing what they're
doing, they'll keep getting what they've got.

Daniel Andrews has behaved impeccably during his
campaign. He did not get involved in politics.
He was driven, and he drove his government into
keeping promises and getting results. That's what
voters want to see. People support governments
if they do things that improve their lives.

As to the continued shift to the Left by the Liberal party (we should soon be dropping the capital 'L’), just look at the dropping of Jim Molan to an unwinnable position on the NSW senate ticket. Mind you, old Jim has been something of a disappointment, not believing it was OK to say it's OK to be white, and generally changing his persona from tough guy to bit-of-a-wimp, which seems to happen to anyone upon joining an Australian political party. Good advice to him: go independent and resurrect the General.

NSW has also put in top place on the ticket, Hollie Hughes, a disability advocate. Bet she's not a conservative, and these advocates for narrow interests are usually one trick ponies, a la Nick Xenephon

Nick Xenophon is not a "one trick" pony.
He was a Senator for South Australia from 2008 to 2017.
From 1997 to 2007 he was a member of the South Australian
Legislative Council. He has vowed to remain a political
"agitator" and has not ruled out a return to politics.

All contributions interesting,however Labor is not even near a 60 seat majority
And just as untrue the thought voters went in to the booths with paper bags over their heads, it is untrue
Foxy has given an explanation, one of many all put together seems to prove the result was known long before polls opened
Contrary to the view Liberals moved to the left the opposite seems true.
They abandoned their true base moving to ground the base never occupied
Federal polls this day, seem to point to this being the start of a massive move, away from a right/Conservative LNP voters never called for
Change is needed if they want to win the federal election, it can be done, more next time.

Ttbn- The Conservatives need to start working on the Federal Election now educating the electorate on the issues in clear sound bites. They need to get out and hand out pamphlets on polling day and in the pre-poll, and bring your friends.

Foxy,
Unfortunately Nick Xenophon has tweeted that he has no intention of returning to politics. And that's a great shame, as he was certainly one of the best MPs we had. But his campaigning for the state election was truly awful (worse even than Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign). Croweaters loathe political jingles (mainly because of Labor's "Gilligans Island" ad in the '90s) and afterwards his party had too little advertising time left to explain their policies and counter the attack ads that pokies' owners were running.

So now SA has a Liberal government. So far they haven't done much, which means they haven't done much damage, which is probably the best we could have hoped for in the short term.

But Federally the Libs are terribly out of touch. Their base are dying off. They survive on the undeserved reputation of being better economic managers than Labor - but once Labor get in, the Libs will have trouble maintaining that image.

That federal LNP victory can still take place if they change a few policy,s
Adopt the energy plan Labor has [the very one Liberals intended to use]
Remember even if you think climate change is a fraud voters do not agree, supporting a policy that shed more voters than it delivers is madness
Stop hard right policy in education migration, soften toward a more middle path
For now in my view every Liberal voters, every candidate, show go to the ABC website, read the facts, not an ABC plot
How many votes did the minor party,s, all of them,get highlight the very left and very right
Stop boxing them both ,go with the center and voters not against them

Hi Aidan,

Thanks for the information about Nick Xenophon.
As for the Liberal Party? They need to listen
to people like John Pesutto and Mary Wooldridge in Victoria.
Mathew Guy's campaign was very narrow. I'm not sure what's
going to happen next. Will he be replaced as Liberal Party
leader in Victoria? And by whom? Also it appears that
Michael Kroger's position as President of the Liberal Party
is now also under threat. Jeff Kennett called for his
resignation on Saturday evening.

Not a good look. A more united and supportive
party would be a better strategy. Admitting mistakes - and
learning from this experience is the way to move forward.

Dear Belly,

You're right.

Elections are won from the centre.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/get-real-liberals-call-for-new-message-on-climate-social-policy-after-victorian-defeat-2
Every thing I have been saying is in this link
In part those out side the party, shock jocks, past Liberals, hurt the very base of this party Sky News, unable to even match the ABC news flys against the very guts of Liberalism harming by their support a party that must cut some links

Hi Belly,

As I said elsewhere ScuMo has as much chance of winning the next federal election as a snowflakes chances are in hell, he couldn't win a chook raffle if he held all the tickets. The electorate are sick and tied of the self serving bastards, and they are getting worse. No more of the gentlemanly thing of stabbing "friend and colleagues" in the back, they have now resorted to stabbing each other, front on, side on, backwards and forwards, it don't matter no more, its lost. They will try to hang on to the death, and then watch their campaign, it will be a real mud slinger, aided by the likes of the Murdoch gutter press.

Corny Banana and his fascist party, the so called Australian Conservatives, are all piss and wind, they will score four fifths of FA, outside of the Banana Republic, and the Lovely Pauline will probely get all that vote anyway.

Elections are won from the centre.
Foxy,
That'd be a democratic kind of outcome but how do we get a Democracy when minorities can block majority ?

One point of view which was aired today after the huge swing away from the Liberal party was that voters were attracted to the promise of infrastructure - a conservative value. Possible. But it's more likely that the Liberals’ past five of negative polls, and their failure to do anything about it, was the real reason. The federal party is very similar; it's just not getting the message, preferring to believe the utter bullshite that they listen too much to the 'right’ of the party. What right! There are only about three Liberals who could be called right these days. Most of them are 'moderate’, which is a weasel word for 'left’

Individual,

The win in Victoria was by no means a "minority"
win. Victorians rejected "the low road of fear
and division" by voting Labor back into government
as the Liberal/National opposition wonders where it
all went wrong in a state election some have described
as a blood-bath. The Coalition's losses across the
state will make it harder for it to win government in
2022 and the opposition leader must take some of
the blame for running such a negative campaign. His
message did not resonate well. Victorians
overwhelmingly endorsed a positive and optimistic
plan for their state.

"Say what you do, and Do what you say." People support
governments if they do things that improve their lives.
Premier Andrews in his victory speech said that his
government focused on the practical:
upgrading hospitals, new schools, the removal of level
crossings, a huge infrastructure program. If a government
lives its values and keeps its promises it will do well.

Attacking others and just finger-pointing is an outmoded
and no longer a relevant model for political success.
It's time that the Liberal Party learned this lesson.

Talking about election success...

Daniel Andrews won the Victorian state election.
People trusted him and believed him.

Can the same thing be said about Bill Shorten?

Is he capable of leading the federal Labor Party
to victory as Andrews did in Victoria?
Do people trust Mr Shorten?

The federal election may be a totally different
story under Mr Shorten's leadership.
From my observations - he's not in the same league
as Daniel Andrews. Perhaps Mr Shorten should step
aside for Mr Andrews or for a leader like Mr Andrews?

Just a thought.

Some of you may be wondering what can the Liberal
Party do to win the next federal election?

Re-instate Malcolm Turnbull!

Just a thought.

Dear Foxy,

What was interesting was how much the Green vote was pegged back.

The reason was that the Andrews government took the ground out from under them. They have been very aggressive on renewable energy, building windfarms and solar plants, promising solar panels for 700,000 homes at no upfront cost, drove zero emission targets for water authorities etc.

A little sideline was the Not Happy Dan Campaign driven by the Shooting Industry Federation of Australia. Their ads concentrated on crime and safety while not mentioning a single thing about guns. All they were after was a weapon friendly government so they could increase profits and they got called out.

This really is a good state for smelling out BS. The kind of crap that might have gotten traction in the shock jock states certainly missed the mark here.

Foxy,
Turnbull's quit parliament and the party's lost his seat, so he really can't be reinstated.
Besides, reinstating Rudd wasn't enough for Labor to win the election.

For the Libs to win federally, they must not only stop opposing Labor's good policies, but also get some good policies of their own. Changing leader yet again won't help.

I now know I got it wrong, well aware ScoMO [MINI ME]is right of Turnbull I thought he could turn this around.
Even at the time of my last post here
Question time got in the way.
Forced myself to watch it, to sift the mud looking for a glimpse of a different future direction.
Sponsored by a speaker uninterested in questions actually getting an answer min me, his team,turned on the very rhetoric that lost them Wentworth and Victoria.
Yes I am pleased, but even more so by the blindness of supporters here.
By the instistance trying to pull the voters, not walk with them, is the answer to the two party,s in one today,s Liberal party is.
Shorten, remember, he is target of much that is not true, he is not popular.
But he will become very much so, in the year following his election,
America elects personality we elect or reject policy

At least the Greens went backwards - again.

Dear Steele,

So proud to be a Victorian!

Aidan,

Just joking about Malcolm Turnbull.

Dear Belly,

If the Libs don't change or learn from Victoria -
they're doomed.

“Only if it (the Liberal party) accepts the Victorian catastrophe was more the Coalition’s doing than Labor’s can the Liberal Party learn the lessons of its demolition and start to recover and rebuild. But if this self-awareness doesn’t dawn soon, kiss goodbye to the Morrison government in six months’ time, and even be prepared to kiss goodbye to the Liberal party as we know it.”

That's a pretty good summing up by Terry Barnes in The Spectator. But what can they do? Go further left and offer the spongers more free stuff than Labor? That's all politics is about these days: buying votes from a greedy electorate, with money that doesn't exist, and to hell with the consequences.

In many threads I have proposed the right has taken the Liberals away from their base
I want to underline that,supporters EG Sky News try just that.
How many votes are won by anti safe schools? how many are lost?
How many came to conservative ranks because of energy/climate change policy, how many left
Review, in statewide vote counting, ABC web page, how many votes did the extreme right get?
Can anything be gained pandering to them?
Now review conservatives enemy, the true left,how many votes did they get? was it worth the effort targeting them?
Did voters think Labor was a true left party,
A shattering defeat was known to be the outcome weeks ago, has the two fighting cats in a bag we know as the Liberal party lost contact with its true base,are outside commentators doing more harm than good to them?
A small l Liberal party will emerge as the current one learns the same lesson again in both NSW and Federally, its very DNA will not change until its near death forces change

// buying votes from a greedy electorate, with money that doesn't exist, and to hell with the consequences.//

ttbn conveniently forgets that ScuMo was the leading advocate within the government to give big business tax cuts. Morrison spent every moment as Treasurer trying to pass his ‘enterprise tax plan’ to give $65 billion to big business, including $17 billion to the big banks.

ScuMo voted 26 times in parliament against the Banking Royal Commission. He called it a "populist whinge". He still opposes any widening of the RC terms of reference.

Return the Coalition at the next election and they will jack up the pension age to 70 and beyond. Morrison does not support the Aged Pension. He told people to forget about relying on the Aged Pension. Cuts to Medicare, Schools, Hospitals have all been done by this government, will spending billions on useless submarines for the Navy brass to play with, and their will be more Morrison cuts if they get back in. In the same way as they cut the pay of the lowest paid workers, they will cut the pay of every other worker as well. Morrison demanded the States privatise assets at fire sale prices, with sell offs to his business mates if the States wanted funding for infrastructure.

ttbn where is any of that, "buying votes from a greedy electorate". ScuMo is your kinda guy!

Hi belly,

I hope you are still a Labor activists, the progressive side of politics is going to need every one of us to man the trenches in 2019. The rabid conservatives through their mouthpieces, particularly the lunatic Murdoch gutter press, are going to launch an all lying smear campaign against Bill Shorten and Labor in the run up to the Federal election, its going to be a tough fight!

Paul! nothing can change that ever
BUT I reserve the right to express a view about what conservatives need to consider
ttbn need not be rebutted, his view is the problem, not the answer to conservatives troubles
Forget following America, Trump is a product of a very weak Democrat party with the wrong leader
Too forget Fox, the recent take over will forever change that propaganda machine
Democrats did not fail in their senate
The task was impossible two years before the election.
Sky news shock jocks, elderly statesmen of the two party,s that make up today,s Liberals are shrouting views only minorities believe in
Julie Bishop last night said what more than a third of today,s parliamentary members of the Liberals, and about 60 percent of voters think
Ready for next year? a cake walk two victories in the bag, unless they remove mini me and put Bishop in charge

The pain must be too much
From my first post after a spell from this place my posts have seen me sidelined as a Labor know nothing.
Maybe even traitor to the country
No one has tried explaining why we saw a Prime Minister in name only, tell us, even now, his only policy is defame Labor
While mini me held his press conference, not to say we will do better, not to talk about policy he lost another member
A Woman, one of the very few, yes this government refuses to consider females, his only tactic?
Fear and loathing about Labor
It did not work in Victoria, it did not work in 2007, it will not work in 2019
Today Scott Morrison told us he rejects voters opinions and the very idea policy can convince them
He took the mud bucket out to confront the fire hose about to sweep him from power

Dear Belly,

Australian politics has a definite cycle.

Liberals are campaigning.
Policy - increase surplus.
How? - cut spending - hospitals, schools, roads, rail,
infrastructure,
et cetera - the usual.

How to fix the damage caused by increased surplus?
Solution - vote Labor in.
Labor will spend to fix the damage.
Result - re-elect Liberals to increase surplus.

And so the cycle continues.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/strewth-trying-to-kick-start-things-the-prime-minister-gets-kicked-where-it-hurts-201
Well said
Not however eard Foxy this cucle is driven by Liberal right not understanding it is a bigger threat to its self than the LP is
The link was from one of their own, well not now but it speaks for its self
REGUGEES from this subject are noted,not even the supporters they have here can find ways to promote them

Who cares about Labor's victory the important thing is that the Greens got a drubbing.

Dear Belly,

Thanks for the link.

It was very revealing.

Thanks Foxy, my last post unless others post here
Like the LNP rabid supporters here, rather than talk about it have put their heads in the sand.
Watched, irk! the home of toxic masculinity and fake news Sky News, helps remind me how dreadful extremes are.
Idiot welcomed yesterdays addition to the cross benches with *at least we do not have to hear her any more*
50 percent of voters are women, enough said
For the real world, out side the grumpy old mens shed some here live in,very real movement in matters that make or break political party,s need observation,
Thanks to all contributors

By no stretch of the imagination can the Melbourne result be considered an indicator for Australia.
Just look at the demographic. Nothing short of handout-central.

Individual,

The state of Victoria is one of the most progressive
states in this country. Victorians overwhelmingly
endorsed a positive and optimistic plan for their
state by electing Labor. They rejected the "low
road of fear and division." Whether the rest of the
country will follow suit in May next year at the
federal election remains to be seen. Political
commentators are predicting that unless the Liberal
Party changes its outmoded political tactics - their
chances of winning the next election are pretty slim.

You need to remember that the party that Menzies
founded was not the party of today. It was a
"broad church." It was a "Liberal" party. Not a
right-wing conservative party. If the Liberal
party continues to "play" to the segment of its party
that is far to the right of the electorate, it will
not only alienate others (like Julia Banks - who's
left the party and many others who may follow) but it
will not only lose the election - it will crumble as
a party.

Individual in the strangest way mirrors the very right in Liberalism.
They like he, refuse to see true Liberals still exist, and they do not want a bar of the new right
No one tried to answer how many votes are won, or lost, by no real commitment to climate change
How many do not see safe schools as a threat
It is Trump like to think voters are grubs for not thinking as you do
This country, maybe the world, is headed for a financial crisis, it may come before Morrisons May election
That would see near death for Conservatives

Dear Belly,

Their Party's future is in their own hands.
Not to change will be their own downfall.
Those leaving will form their own parties.

//Who cares about Labor's victory the important thing is that the Greens got a drubbing.//

Well Issy, if 10% is a drubbing. What do you call the 0.7% scored by your mob, The Shooters and Hooters Party, a blood bath? What are you expecting now in Victoria? Koala hunting season to operate 365 days a year? Your good buddies the hoons from the hooters, to be able to carry on their destructive stupidity, not just in national parks, but in all parks.
I can just picture it now; The hoons up front doing doughnuts around the kiddies playground (park) in the souped up 4WD mega truck, Issy and the rest of the shooters gang hanging out the back taking pot shots at the poor little koala's as they play on the monkey bars!

Surely any reader can see it is my view, after reform the task of beating a small l Liberal party may be just too hard
That I am not posting anti Liberal propaganda but what I truly think is their best way forward
They KNOW they have a problem with women
They too know branch stacking in an effort to put the right in every seat is on
They over value their own dislike of Shorten
That, over valuing your own position,, and undervalueing your opponents is not bright
Yes the word *climate change* makes conservatives itch all over,
But surely they can see THEIR base, true base, wants action?

'They KNOW they have a problem with women'

they certainly do. Ones who have been promoted above their compentecy levels are still crying the victim status. Look at the sooks throwing tantrums and trashing their own party. They are a disgrace. I think Abbott had it right by only having one in the cabinet and look at her sniping and tantrums now from the backbench.

"What do you call the 0.7% scored by your mob,[?]"

Victory, because the SF&F Party is also about keeping the Greens out.

Better luck next time, you're sure going to need it.

That rope is getting longer ! There'll be enough for most of them.

Individual,

Ah, but will Mark Latham stick around long
enough to be unleashed. And will he listen
to Pauline?

My expectations on starting this thread did not even get to the starting gate
See I thought we could explore why the result was known weeks before the day
What went wrong, what was always going to go wrong
Why the so called red shirt scandal, one both sides could be charged with EVERY ELECTION failed
Why its not safe to go out at night in Melbourne was chuckle worthy in the end for having zero impact.
The best response seems we won! because the greens did not!
Trump like
The liberal leader fell on his sword over night, was picked up and thrown on it in truth
And we can not get interest in talking about the very future of Liberalism

I'd imagine their were a lot of first-time voters in that election. That phenomenon is standard.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-liberal-party-riven-by-its-wreckers-faces-wholesale-collapse-20181128-p50ixy.html
That link, unlike some comments here, is from this days SMH at least we should read it, I watch Sky, irk! to get a balanced view, it is worth the trouble
It is my view, here and in America, the tea party right, that powered Trump.
That in part bought about the very right in Liberalism, was, yes true, fed by the left/Democrat/Labor refusal to engage with voters
BUT the reverse is now true, the right forgot its base was not true right
CHUFFED no other words fit, by the thought a poster here said, it may have been first time voters!
That delivered Victorian Liberals to the chopping block, with opponents like that Labor could be lead to victory by that once Blue Heeler dog

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, Issy are you dizzy, doing too many doughnuts in your hoon mobile. "the S(hotheads) F(utwits) & F(ools) Party is also about keeping the Greens out. 0.7% wouldn't keep even a fly out. How are Bob Ballsup and Bob Berserk, the fearless leaders in NSW going these days?

My question for the day. I always have a question for you my dear friend.

Issy, in your lifetime, how often do you shoot yourself in the foot? Or anywhere else for that matter.

Ise Mise read that tried to post a link but failed
Interesting to see the very right pushing a wheelbarrow that is up side down
Sky news insists on insulting that part of this government that is still Liberal
Big tents have a reason to exist
Still it highlights the very real danger when one side wants to kill the other
Been reminding some on my side extremes fail, leaving the center behind is not a plan it is death
Quite a lot of *outside the party help* is in fact pulling the LNP down

Belly,

Just get rid of the 's' in 'https' and it comes up fine, just one of those OLO things!!

Paul,

It's not the voters that we influenced to vote for us but the ones that we convinced not to vote Green that matter in the long run, and my feet are in fine shape apart from an ingrown nail on one big toe and a couple of mildly clubbed toes; no corns or calluses.

Hi Issy,

The good old 12 gauge will soon take care of that ingrown nail, one well directed blast and problem solved, guaranteed.

Grunting and groaning with animal noises at voters outside polling booths does not convince them not to vote Green. Maybe you have another use for that 12 gauge, pointing it in the right direction.

I know you don`t want Greens in parliament, they put up silly laws, like no hooning in children's playgrounds, no annual culling of koalas. No discharging your AK47 in the bank, to get instant service, such silly laws.

Paul,

Some people also put up silly posts.

Yesterday you could have counted the people agreeing with me in the media in the tens
Thanks for that s message too, I wanted to post a John Hewson opinion.
He may have been a great leader if not for the boggyman GST he shared his thoughts, they could have been mine.
Generally watch Sky for self amusement.
It informs us the center are? well they do not exist! seems my claim Sir Robert Menzies was a LIBERAL are? untrue!
They damage the Liberal brand, Trump like, Albo,s *in your guts you know he is nuts* could be any one of their trained performers spouting untruths/lies
I think reading the demands the Liberals return to Liberalism, after their impending train wreck, will be fun

The problem with Liberalism according to Patrick Deneen is that it takes its definition of freedom from John Stuart Mill and John Locke (called the father of Liberal Democracy)

Not sure of the integrity of these links
http://www.literary-articles.com/2009/02/john-locke-father-of-modern-democracy.html
http://www.freedomandflourishing.com/2018/03/is-john-locke-responsible-for-failings.html

Paraphrasing John Stuart Mill- On Liberty- "you should be free to do that which doesn't harm others".
At face value this seems reasonable until you realise that everything is related.

Aristotle's tradition of hendonism and freedom was different.

"For Epicurus pleasure was indeed the supreme good, but his interpretation of this maxim was profoundly influenced by the Socratic doctrine of prudence and Aristotle’s conception of the best life. The true hedonist would aim at a life of enduring pleasure, but this would be obtainable only under the guidance of reason. Self-control in the choice and limitation of pleasures with a view to reducing pain to a minimum was indispensable. This view informed the Epicurean maxim “Of all this, the beginning, and the greatest good, is prudence.”"
http://www.britannica.com/topic/hedonism

In Modern times Liberalism has become synonymous with change, multiculturalism, globalism, free trade, free-love, diversity. What of those that value our heritage, our traditions- it seems liberalism will roll over these. Toffler was right that many people will live in a state of "Future Shock". As Hobbes said "Bellum omnium contra omnes"- the state of man is a state of war of everyone against everyone- those that value our culture need to wake up and fight for their future- "the world is what we make it". A world that is erased of our traditions is a world without meaning- a world of death- where we have no place.

Diversity is not equality- possibility is not probability, globalism is tyranny, multiculturalism is genocide- every culture deserves their own nation, novelty is not happiness.

Sadly there is confusion between liberalism and conservatism especially on the "right". Conservatives (big L liberals) don't believe in Liberalism- they believe in "Traditional Family Values"- so it's strange that others refer to Conservatives as big L liberals.
The right is usually dominated by the "Free Trade/ Money Men" though at some levels they have similar views.
The right has been said to be composed of the military industrial complex. In order to understand this it's necessary to understand the history of politics from the medieval age. Loosely speaking the military are the conservative older branch and the industrial is the business/ new money branch.

Conservatism loosely opposes Liberalism on the multidimensional political spectrum. Patrick Deneen believes that although both left and right have elements of Conservatism and Liberalism- Liberal policies have dominated over the past 500 years. Sometimes even Free Traders have been falsely labelled "Conservative".

Many on the right are in fact "Economic Liberals" or in Australia "small l liberals".
Many on the left are "Social Liberals". Progressive is loosely a synonym for Liberal.

Simply- Conservatives believe in Tradition - Liberals don't.

Sadly traditional conservative values haven't been supported by the Australian people in elections despite the fact that many people seem to value them.

As Orwell pointed out in Nineteen Eighty Four if people don't have the language to express a concept they can't take action in support of it.

The people need to learn what conservative is- for it's about survival

Peter Costello had this to say in his book,
"The Costello Memoirs:

"The Liberal Party must enunciate the values that
define them. They must apply these values to
issues that concern wider groups in the community.
By addressing these issues, they can widen their
community.

On these issues (there are many more), the values
of the Liberal Party - individual dignity,
self-reliance, national sovereignty, personal liberty,
a fair go - are highly relevant. These values resonate
with those of the Australian people. There is an
eager audience ready to listen to those who have the
courage to address their concerns.

Talking about values inspires controversy because
people can understand them, they may resonate with them,
or they may disagree with them. But they do become
enfranchised by debates of this kind. This means
communicating the values that motivate a party's
political approach to the issues of the day,
and convincing voters this will improve their lot
and improve the fortunes of those they care about.
Since most Australians care about their country,
it also means showing what this will do for the
nation.

Political organisations must always hold procedures-
fundraising-meetings as subordinate to the vision.
The vision is the rudder. The rest are the oars.
Members of political parties are far more interested
in ideas than procedures. And the parties must give them
a stake in ideas to sustain them through the long
march of modern politics."

Costello is right -

It is only right that the recent state failure in
Victoria should lead to serious critical
reflection. Plainly something has gone wrong. If it is
to win elections the Liberal Party must become hungry for
success. It should not over-react to this defeat in the
state. But it should react. In the wake of this most
recent defeat, the future direction of the party needs
to be examined.

Canem Malum Foxy all true, let me tell you a secrete I fear a true Liberal party
Right now, in my view, such a Liberal party would be near unbeatable
See like the current Liberals, my party, in my view the only one currently worth electing, has its faction anchoring it down
See I would be hung drawn and quartered, for holding the view, welfare must be reformed
That zero fraud, zero sit down money, and a true return to the community must be the very basis of dole payments.
The difference is I know it openly say it demand it, confront the very left, just as lost as the conservative right
This day children marched, the best this government could come up with? insult them!
Liberalism if it exists must return to its true base if it does my party must follow the voters too

Belly "Liberalism" is a different concept than the "Liberal Party". I'm unsure if you are getting the difference. Also Conservatism is not a synonym for the Liberal Party even if it is sometime used that way.

Conservatism (or Conservative Values) means to conserve the traditional social and economic structure.

Classical Liberalism basically means freedom- in the case of the right it means Free Trade, in the case of the left it means free movement of people, free sexuality, diversity, etc.

But the only way to really understand it is by looking at how the different view points see real life policy.

Both Labor and Liberals have majority Liberal values.

Of course the concepts of Liberalism and Conservatism are relative.

You said you consider a true Free Trade party as undesirable- but currently both parties have similar policies- the Labor party is currently more of a danger to Conservatism as at least the Liberal Party has about 40% Conservative members.

Dear Belly,

I really admire you greatly for being able to
see things from different perspectives.
Thank You.

Here is a youtube movie on Uni Notre Dame Professor Patrick Deneen that talks about Liberalism - I'm not sure how good this one is but it's a start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLPpqCAPd7Y

Thanks Foxy Canem Malum GEE! that has been the whole point of not just posts here but threads like the third force in Australian politics I started
I know the difference, and know true Liberalism is not even in the bus currently driving this government.
NSW this morning, poll in SMH Labor, *even after it lost its leader* is in a election winning position [to be held near federal one]
Reason given the Federal Liberal party
Sky news, a channel on a mission, to blind voters to the truth, is every day, watch it, keep sick bowel close,
It constantly warns true Liberals they do not exist,,and if they do they are traitors!

Classical Liberalism is evidenced by Same Sex Marriage, High Immigration, Free Society initiatives, but also by Free Trade, Globalisation.

Dear Belly,

Political commentator - Lenore Taylor tells
us in a recent article that -

If the "broad church" Liberals go along with
the right-wing conservatives they will find
themselves in a very narrow Liberal Party indeed.
One that will look a lot more like One Nation with
slightly more professional marketing. Is that really
what they want. What's the point of the Liberal Party
if it just panders to an ever narrowing base?

As for Patrick J. Deneen? An extremely conservative
Catholic American - preaching to like-minded people.
Nothing wrong with that.

Foxy that truth is at the heart of this governments problems
SMH this day has three at least, story's about its trouble, one about the way Banks was handled is telling, Liberals disrespect women, women vote
all in all the center has been ignored by the rabid right and that punches a hole in their boats bottom that will only be fixed after a defeat of historic nature

Issy, I do not consider your posts silly... ridiculous yes, but silly no, but then again if you think your posts are silly, who am I to disagree.
I will continue to try and balance your silly post with my own constrictive intelligent contributions.

Getting in early MERRY CHRISTMAS me old salt, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR. I hope Santa bring you everything you wish for, including that fully operational 5" Howitzer you want to put in your front garden. Only to be fired on special occasions, like in the direction of the neighbour when he starts up his mower too early on a Sunday morning, shattering the peace and quite of the neighbourhood by that dude, is not acceptable.

Why have my posts been seen as anti Liberal, surely it is clear I am saying what I think is true
Threads have said it often enough, it is my view the Liberal party, much like Americas Republicans, has left its base behind
That the very right, while having its supporters is? ignoring the numbers from within their supporters who do not want it
Put my new year psychic prediction hat on here
2019 will bring state and federal loss to the fighting cats party
Rebuilding will commence
Maybe another, this time with numbers but not enough for control, right faction split will take place
By mid 2020 a new healthy, women inclusive Liberal party will exist, built on the bones of its current ignorance of what it should be now

The Left appears to be afraid of Traditional Values. Maybe they are Sociopathic.

Traditional values?

Yes, some do say that "home is where the heart is."

But it can also be the site for homegrown prejudice,
petty grievances, and a vicious cruelty.

I don't think everyone had such a bad home life that they would willingly give up their family values. As a child they rage against their parents wisdom. Often as they grow older they appreciate the value of their parents. Alas some are traitors, and deceptive by nature. These people need tough love so that they don't destroy their families and communities. Community isn't top down it's bottom up. Some rage against any form of authority except when someones freedom is used to take their own.

Ah, some people are so determined to depict
Liberalism as a wholly bankrupt ideology that
they give exceedingly short shrift to what makes
it appealing and therefore powerful in the
first place. With all its abiding flaws
Liberalism offers a way out for those who don't
conform to the demands of the clan.

The clan ceases to exist if the members don't cooperate.

The Kalahari Bushmen need to be concerned about Liberals too.

CM left? is it not totally out front true that Liberals in Victoria, in large numbers voted Labor?
HUGE FUN, the thought expressed here that it was *first time voters* who dumped on Liberals
Or demented lefty's
Liberalism as it exists in the current LNP sank, only the oil slick can be seen
When you yell at the center if you do not think like us you are not a Liberal, you must know they will return serve

//The problem with Liberalism//

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Seems to me that the only people who'd have a problem with liberalism are commies. I can't see many Australians being opposed to liberty, but best of luck with your little crusade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibj3NN3fOds

One panicking Liberal has been whining that his party doesn't try to appeal to homos, feminists and multicultural groups. They are not supposed to appeal to those people; that's what makes them different from Labor. They no longer appeal to the people who used to vote for them. The Liberals are buggered and, therefore, so is Australia

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness......THAT DON'T APPLY TO YOU GUYS!, now heads down, and arses up... tote that pail, lift that bail.... OR ITS FLOGGING TIME FOR THE LOT OF YAH!"

From a wonderful speech made by Tomas Jefferson to his hundreds of slave property in 1776.

One of the biggest problems with the Liberal party is that it now has two ideologies - Left and Right. These two are fighting each other, and in the middle is a stand-for- nothing Prime Minister who doesn't really appeal to either side. The circus needs to strike it's tent; the different factions need to find a new home that they are comfortable with, and a new conservative party has to be formed. Perhaps a couple of terms of really rotten Labor government will help that happen. Because that's what we are facing - really rotten Labor government, and there is nothing that the current Liberals are willing to do that will stop it.

//a new conservative party has to be formed.// ttbn, a few months back you were trumpeting the virtues of Corny Banana and his Australian Conservative Party, has the wheels fallen off that wagon?

Are you not a member? Can't you all fit in that chook pen?

ttbn I'll give you the link. You can go to their online store and buy a swag of overpriced Chinese made Corny Banana junk, like a 'Hard Core Conservative Stuffed Chinese Koala' for the ridiculous price of 30 bucks! Or maybe you are the stingy type who'll go for the cheapy $10 Corny Stubby Holder.

http://shop.conservatives.org.au/collections/homeware-and-gifts

Belly- Both Labor and the majority of the Liberal Party are Classical Liberals. Basically it means freedom (but not for everyone) and it can also mean change.

The current "Liberal movement"-
The strategy of the communists was to use the masses (the factory workers and farmers) to take the power and give it to an enlightened leadership (Professors) similar to the Philosopher Ruler described in Plato's Republic (but Plato's rulers weren't ideologues and weren't Liberal). With the failure of communism was apparent in the 1930's the ideas of communist thinker Leon Trotsky such as Radical Permanent Revolution and International Communism were combined with the popular 1930's ideas of Freud to create the New Left through Marcuse. Marcuse believed that sexuality had the radical subversive power to destroy the structures of the ruling class. This is embodied somewhat in the Gay and Feminist movements. The Gay Stonewall movement founded in Chicago movement influenced the Workers Movements (such as the Working Mans Clubs) in the US in the 70's and across the world. We now see signs dramatic signs that the Marcusian New Left are influencing all parts of Western society and major political parties (Workers and Business Parties- Socs and Caps) through Same Sex Marriage, Feminism, Political Correctness, etc. Feminism is a particular issue to stability due to their large proportion of the population.

Essentially the New Left is Communist and the end result of its policies will be monolithic world "Communism".

Toni Lavis - Kudos - Yes the Declaration Of Independence is a Liberal document for the time. Of course it's relative- the society of Independence America and how Liberty is envisaged is very different from today. John Locke's ideas of the equally free and good individuals of nature are part of it- something that Hobbes disagreed with. The Locke / Hobbes argument comes down to the argument about whether man is naturally "good or bad" if man is virtuous then he should be free (Liberalism) if they are not they should be controlled (Conservatism). A problem arises due to the fact that rulers are also entities of mankind- who rules the rulers- this is thought to be resolved by appointing rulers with virtue or approapriate breeding (a meritocracy)- democracy adds further elements.

ttbn- The Liberal Party is made up of 40% Conservative and so on many issues they are probably less Liberal overall than the Labor party. People don't understand what Conservatism is. As Orwell says if people don't have the language to express a concept they can't act.

http://www.coursehero.com/lit/1984/symbols/
http://theessentialencounter.wordpress.com/2017/05/02/the-destruction-of-language-in-george-orwells-1984/

“By 2050, earlier, probably – all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron – they’ll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually changed into something contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like ‘freedom is slavery’ when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking – not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness”

Conservatives are the ones that look upon the last forty years of change with horror.

The Free Trade loss of our borders, the high immigration loss of our borders, the sexualisation of our children, the relegation of parents, the destruction of our culture, the unfulfilled promises and deception of "Economic and Social Liberalism".

Liberals believe that they know better than our ancestors. Conservatives believe that our parents and ancestors society was structured better as it gave more power low in the hierarchy.

Big government crowds out low level power structures and makes the world less democratic.

//By 2050, earlier, probably – all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron – they’ll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually changed into something contradictory of what they used to be.//

//People don't understand what Conservatism is.//

"it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
- William Shakespeare

"ttbn- The Liberal Party is made up of 40% Conservative ..."

That's about right. So that 40% should get off their backsides and form a genuine conservative party; then the wets in the party could carry on as a true liberal party as per the UK version. We could then have conservative, liberal and labour to choose from.

The idea of any politician claiming to be conservative being mixed up with a party having 'liberal' in its title as absolutely stupid. John Howard's 'broad church' description was absolute nonsense. If you don't have a party made up of members with the same values, wanting to represent voters with those same values, them the whole thing is a waste of time.

If people want SSM and other perversions, they can vote Labor. Those of us who don't want such things should be able to vote for party that also doesn't agree with such things, and democracy will take care of which party is elected. But there is no party that any longer caters for conservatives in Australia. The Liberal party has cynically gone with any crap that they think will get them elected; they have no values or principles at all.

Some of us will need to get their shoes off for this, mathematics
A word that in the end says who will rule us after an election
Hence the Liberal coalition Nationals, and Liberals, with thier pup wandering along behind one motion
Labor too has its left and right, the greens, our refugees, some times vote with us
We call the above big tent party,s
Of late, that 40 percent of Liberalism, far from Liberal in practice,has told the other 60 percent to? leave quickly
Now yes! a fourth power, lets call it the right of reality Liberals, could join in a coalition
How please tell me, would that be any different than today,s cat fight

Nobody is truly stopping those unhappy with the current
system from doing what they prescribe: finding a community of
like-minded folk, taking to the land, growing their own
food, pulling their children out of public schools, and so on.
Their problem is that they apparently want everyone to do these
things - which suggests that these people may have more in
common with their caricature of "bullying Liberals," than they
care to admit.

The election saw a swing, against both Liberals and greens
That swing, near all of it, went to Labor
Question, if 40 percent of Liberals are conservative, what is the percentage of voters who stayed with them
Are 40 percent of Liberal voters conservatives

Dear Belly,

When your own base - so called rusted on voters
are embarrassed to vote Liberal. As I stated
previously it is time to look very intensely
in the mirror. Many MPs have stated in colourful
language the party is now toxic among women and
young people. It's got to shift
its rhetoric and policy direction. This is a
battle for the identity and values of the
Liberal Party. A battle to restore the party
to its original values.

Foxy so true, more bad news NSW LIBERAL Kelly it seems, against the wishes of his members, will have special rule used to save his seat
Seems only after a shellacking will the party consider reform
Roll on election, who will lead after that loss?
Julie Bishop must be a chance

ttbn- I agree with you. But the Liberal Party is a brand- and to create a brand requires ground work- you need to educate the consumer. The electorate doesn't understand our Conservative value perspective. Any goal needs a plan and resources- the election will be early next year.
___
I with many others still value the views of our elders- the young need this link for the future.

I'll be working steadily with the few that still believe in Traditional British Australian Values to act as a team to create a vision for those that are loyal. During elections I am buoyed by the many that still quietly regard Traditional Australian values as "common sense". The principles of Free Speech over Political Correctness, Voltaire, The Declaration of Independence- Government of the people, Local forms of government, Self Reliance, Resilience, letting parents teach children about sex and discipline, responsibility- are still considered "common sense" by many. These are core Conservative Values and they are so much more than the Liberalism of the Labor Party and the Free Traders. We need to tell Australians that they should be proud of their quiet efforts in their day to day work, their role in Australia, the little things that create Australia's future- and its past. The duty and value of rulers is to direct the population to greater strength as each day is a step in life- at dusk we'll see the wealth of the work that sustains us and ours- the threads of each loyal life make our nation. Let Australian's stand tall again- together- our elders/ our families/ our young- and we "stop the dividers".

It maybe worth reading this mornings Sydney Morning Herald
You will find it highlighted the two cats fighting in a bag Liberals are intent on killing each other.
The the other side, peg on nose, be brave, Sky News
The dark side of the moon ,they will tell you true Liberals, small l Liberals, are a minority and betraying the party
If you make it past that you are a Hero
One more test, find in every way you can, what do small l Liberal voters think, if you get this far you are streets ahead of the Liberal factions, they do not even care
Finally, dare I? how big is that faction small l,s in voters ranks
I believe Conservative Liberals make up no more than 30 or 40 percent of voters

//Voltaire//

As in Voltaire the liberal philosopher?

You don't know what you want, do you?

Hi Belly,

Can you help me out of this one, ttbn seems to be to embarrassed to reply. A little while back the lad was crowing the virtues of Corny Banana and his Australian Conservative Party, I believe he even claimed membership (it might have been rejected due to his perceived radical left wing stance, or he wouldn't pay the dues). Is there not enough space in that chook pen for all these conservative turkeys. What do you think? Maybe they are waiting for the second coming of the messiah, the return of Holy Joh, who they expect to descend shortly and take them all to the promised land (Kingaroy Queensland). .

Toni Lavis- Kudos- Yes Voltaire- "I don't agree with what you say but I support your right to say it"- it appears Liberals have lost the principles of Liberalism too- but I agree with the quote. John Locke was a Liberal too- the one that inspired the Declaration of Independence- which you note was also quoted. But I would say that Voltaire and Locke are both probably much more Conservative than today's Liberals.

From my understanding Conservatism loosely evolved from the Monarchy and is perhaps the older form. It has adopted new ideas but with somewhat less zeal than Liberals.

Belly- I suspect there are many bags and many cats- cats within bags- bags within cats, bags within bags, cats within cats- maybe the universe is just cats and bags all the way down. In fact I think I see a cat with a collar - Belly.

CC,

Fine sentiments that cannot be argued with. However, conservatives have to learn to fight dirty like the Left. The Left has no moral background, no values. The Left just wrecks and will do anything to win. There is no appealing to them. They don't understand good manners, and will only ever take advantage of those who do. The other problem is that the Australian electorate has been brainwashed by the Left and promised 'stuff' for nothing. I doubt that there is a more ignorant and child-like electorate in the world. The latest proof of this lies in the massive Liberal loss in Victoria. Vote-buying by Labor cannot be classified as a win. The Liberals didn't seem to even try.

I am well aware I as a center right ALP tragic have form, maybe even bias
But excuse me while I ROTFL!
My intention, here and in other threads, has been to put a view forward, get other opinions, on what the LNP must/should will do, you pick the right one
To? bring back its voters,to Sir Robert Menzies like, John Howard like[ slightly more right than Bob]
I find here the answer is said to be not problems within LNP, its the ruddy voters!
HE HE HE!Shop fronts and what is on the shelves bring punters in to the store
Maybe some research? find out what the punters want?
While we wait Mr who is he? [gem that one Trump]Mini Me/ ScoMo might well consider sending the troops to the NSW/VIC border to protect us from these frothing at the mouth lefty loons in VICTORIA stop it!rolling on the floor is not good for your back at my age.

No one has exclusive rights over the definition
of Australian values. So it bugs me when some
people use terms like -
"Traditional British Australian values," as
shorthand for an incredibly narrow set of political
views and a very particular minority model of Australia.
By throwing around the term they're implying
that people who don't share their vision don't
also put this country first and are somehow disloyal.
That is simply not true. It's reminiscent of the minorities
who support One Nation, Cory Bernardi, et al.
And thankfully they belong
on the outer edges of this country's political system.

Dear Belly,

We also need to raise the issue of traffic congestion
in our cities.

Melbourne is ranked 3rd worst after Rome and New York.

I read that as early as the 1950s plans for the
decentralisation of the Melbourne Central area have been
produced by planners in the Public Works Department.

Consecutive State governments continue to squeeze more
and more into the Central area. Permits are granted for
more office, commercial and high rise residential buildings.

Instead of decentralisation of our cities
and the development of our regional
areas, we now see our regional areas slowly dying.
If it wasn't for tourism - our regional towns would vanish.

I have family and friends who work in the Melbourne
Architectural and city planning sectors and they confirm
that the problem is very serious. Changes need to happen.
But who will lead the way? The Liberal Governments
approved so many of the buildings causing problems today
in the Melbourne CBD. (Matthew Guy - was known as
Mr Skyscraper).

Saw that Foxy, stunned me, my job took me to Melbourne and in truth found it more livable than Sydney, more Aussie too.
Foxy started a post about the one you highlight, but as I have now done about ten times deleted it
Some things are best ignored
Build a wall! keep those crazy Victorians in! or maybe other crazys out

Dear Belly,

We don't have to worry about those kind of Victorians
any more. The voters took care of that.
Hopefully, the Andrews government planners will
improve things all round regarding traffic
conjestion in this state.
It badly needs doing.

//But I would say that Voltaire and Locke are both probably much more Conservative than today's Liberals.//

Possibly, I've never met either of them and I haven't read much Voltaire. Nevertheless, the fact remains the the first three 'Traditional Australian' and 'common sense' values you listed - 'Political Correctness, Voltaire, The Declaration of Independence- Government of the people' - are all very definitely classic liberal values. And the remaining five - 'Local forms of government, Self Reliance, Resilience, letting parents teach children about sex and discipline, responsibility' - do not conflict with liberalism.

So it would appear that despite all your protests to the contrary, you're really far more in favour of liberalism than you'd care to admit.

ttbn- Thanks for your comments. Yes the world isn't fair ... walk it off. I'd be proud to stand with you at polling.

Toni Lavis- I think you need to go back and read what I wrote again. Also Liberalism is freedom is relative- (so liberalism is about change) - just like your Dad is your Dad but not my Dad.

Every day the cat fight gets more funny, last night on QxA the insult that kids with a view are headed for the dole line got bashed
The young man had it all over his opponents
Lets see LNP is against women, will not let its party,s pre-selectors select,thinks future voters [those kids] are a target for insults
Maybe some one needs to tell them their job is to make policy people want, not war
Question, again, how many conservatives are in this government, supplementary how many voters from their base are conservatives
IF as I think it is unbalanced , but not in a majority in either group why the fuss

Another thread has ran its course but the questions it put will remain long after it stalls
Facts, Victorian Liberals lost some firm Liberal voters
They it seems voted Labor
Too the usual fear and loathing/law and order/over spending cheap shots failed
Still the debate continues about the undoubted factional war within that party
Questions arise, what percentage, nation wide, of party seat holders are ultra conservatives
What percentage of Liberal party voters are
What is the undoubted difference
The world has traveled to the right, based on a very real unhappiness with migration/refugees
As more and more center and left of it party,s agree with some of that, is a move away from the new right a chance
Should this mini me shadow of Trumps madness consider what it once did so well
Taking the best of its opponents policy as their own
EG last nights adoption of the Rudd reform re dumping Prime Ministers

Hi Belly,

I don't believe voters were put off to vote Liberal in Victory because of philosophical differences within the party. What is more likely voters were put off by federal disunity and state issues. I believe Labor ran an extremely effective campaign against a mediocre Opposition, everything worked in Labor's favour.

Turnbull is trying to throw punches from outside the ring in an attempt to save the miserable Coalition government in NSW from suffering the same fate as the Victorian opposition. Turnbull is also a bitter man, nothing would please him more than to see his "mates" in Canberra receive a black eye at the ballot box ASAP. "hell hath no fury like a politician scorned!". In this case Malcolm Turnbull.

Mate, what do you think of the so called Australian Conservative Party led by Corny Banana. Why haven't more hard liners within the Liberal party defected to that mob. Is it about hopeful survival on their part? Don't they believe a Conservative party can stand alone in Australia, and save their necks

Paul I once voted against the ALP, did not work in the lead up, did not man a booth
It was the post scumbag Obead
Yes federal issues play a roll, too the very blandness of the campaign, you know just as I do, they miss use the truth
Never the less change, if not now post 2019 losses will come because of a party not just out of touch with its base but actively insulting it.

Paul please forgive, never answered the question about that right wing nut,
He will struggle to be reelected, note I truly think Abbott and Kelly, yes understand the margins, may not be
Australian right of reality voters do not exist in numbers big enough to hold a rowing regatta.
See one motion outside Queensland