I'm an old man now. With rapidly approaching dementia. Something I can't understand, is why it's necessary to (apparently) do away with our gender descriptions?

What's wrong with 'he or she'; 'male or female', 'ladies or men'? If you're a homosexual man, it doesn't matter what gender you adhere to. Similarly with that of lesbian ladies.

It's already hard enough for our children to successfully get through their schooling, without this 'gender nuteral' nonsense making things even harder and more complicated.

Someone in American politics averred something along the lines of; 'drain the swamp'? I dunno about that, but one institution that needs draining and quickly, is our Universities, with the claptrap and bullship they teach their students these days.

Well all things PC irk me, while I have NEVER heard such talk it is around and lives in the heart of green like do gooders, I refuse to agree with anything such as this and think most do too.

o sung wu & Belly,
I think we're cursed with common sense & sanity, in a word we're old farts who don't understand anything that doesn't make sense. People now attend University to comprehend the nonsensical.
Imagine if people like Ferdinand Porsche, James Watt, Wernher von Braun etc. were to attend today's universities, would they still be as capable ?

It's just more lunatic left rubbish. It has no effect on the majority if it is treated with the contempt it deserves.

Hi there BELLY & INDIVIDUAL...

G'day BELLY...

I'm very much like you, I cannot abide all this PC nonsense. Moreover you're right, it's this sort of detritus that's had it's origins within some businesses and Universities, and they're seeking to suffuse and imbue all our places of learning, our Schools; TAFE; and ALL our Universities, until the masses accept their odd ideology and conform to their standards of Politically Correct behaviour. All very sad I reckon.

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

Undeniably, I guess we're old farts as you say. But old farts can think, and speak, with as much commonsense and clarity as anyone else, as evidenced by many of the world's greatest contributions to the sciences, humanities, literature and the arts. In fact I reckon many of the older folk are pretty damn clever, after all they've managed to have reached 'old age' in this highly competitive world. As you say; Messrs WATT; BRAUN; and PORSCHE aren't exactly 'dumbo's' are they eh! And neither are you INDIVIDUAL, BELLY, or to a lessor extent, myself 'dumbo's' either

There were times when procreation was important.
At those times, having convex or concave genitals was so important that it called for separate pronouns, while in some languages this even called for categorising all objects as either male or female, then treating their names grammatically differently. That created sexual tension, which was useful at the time. We, especially the older generations (counting myself among these), are still victims of that sexual tension and suffered unnecessarily for it.

But today, earth is overcrowded and procreation is no longer a good thing. Stopping to fuss about the direction of our genitals should reduce sexual tensions, thus help us to relax about it and reduce human population.

We don't give special pronouns for those with broad noses and narrow noses because we don't deem it to be so important. It is time to view our genitals similarly.

We can't bust heads like we used to. But we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for m'shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt. Which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Noone cares what old straight men have to say anymore. Get used to it.

Good Afternoon O Sung Wu,

I've listed a link below that you might find interesting.
It explains that "as English speaking Western cultures
and societies have evolved over the past few decades, the
use of gender-specific language has (and is becoming) a thing
of the past. Although the extent of this may still vary from
country to country, it's now becoming more common and
acceptable to use gender-neutral terms when writing and pseaking
in English."

Many of us are probably not even aware that we're doing it.
For example, instead of saying "airline stewardess" the term
"flight attendant," is often used. Instead of "actress," we
use the term - "actor," instead of "headmaster," the term -
"Principal" is popular. Then instead of "Boss," "Supervisor,"
is preferred, instead of "Forefathers," - "Ancestors,"
and so it goes.

I don't find this to be a problem - and I'm sure that whatever
term you decide to use - few people would correct you as long as
they understand what you're trying to say - and you're not being
rude or insulting, I think that's all that matters.

Here's the link:

http://www.writinghelp-central.com/gender-neutral.html

Hi there BUGSY...

You're right no one is interested in what the old straight men have to say any more, because what they say is meaningless and unimportant. Worse still coming as it would from the aged, proves it's patently uninteresting, and that in itself is the problem. Because nobody has the slightest interest whatsoever, in what older folks have to say these days, because generally it's just plain boring. Thanks BUGSY for your contribution.

Well, I still say 'batsman', when I am talking about a male with a cricket bat in his hand. Apparently the word 'Batter' is now in use by most commentators.

Batter is what you have on your fish.

Are there any females who play cricket?

Hi there FOXY...

It's all too much for me I'm afraid. I don't think referring to things the old way is wrong, rude nor insulting. I think by being gender neutral de-personalises things and people, and removes all the warmth out of our normal human language and the usual interaction we have with each other. Thank you very much for that Link you've so kindly provided me with too FOXY, I'll be sure to give it a good read.

Hello HOUELLEBECQ...

My friend I couldn't agree with you more. I can't speak the French, but don't the have masculine and feminine gender for just about everything within their language?

First we are humans made in the image of God (albeit fallen) and second our gender is determined by biology not choice. No amount of dogmas or lies can change those two facts.

Old people now must redefine rainbows, and snow flakes!
Times are getting tougher....( or is it tuffer)?

Hi there RUNNER...

You're right. Our gender's are determined by biology and not by some fleeting fancy of choice. That's despite all the tinkering in the world it still won't change it. Anyway, are some humans so bored and listless with life they wish to change the very nature of what they're born as? Go for your life I say, it's a free country, just don't go about trying to influence our younger folk, with this nonsense of altering their gender, if they're bored with who they are.

Let them go about improving themselves, both academically and on the sporting field, after some success in either arena, you might find, your formerly boring life just might take on a whole new meaning for you? You never can tell? Many thanks RUNNER.

G'day DIVER DAN...

Not this old bloke, not for a moment. I'm far too old and cranky to change anything. About all I can do for my fellow man is keep out of his road, and be respectful for what he does. Anything else, I'm afraid he'll need to seek the aid and understanding from others. Thanks D.D.

//I can't speak the French, but don't the have masculine and feminine gender for just about everything within their language?//

Yep. Here's a great video about pronouns in different languages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ehrFk-gLk

//Well, I still say 'batsman', when I am talking about a male with a cricket bat in his hand.//

Never understood that one. They're only wielding one bat. Surely they should be referred to as 'The Batman'.

I'll see myself out.

Toni Lavis,
Das is a perfect example of die complexity of english that der chap portrayed.

If you say to a German die Lehrerin then instantly they know you're ferring to a female teacher.
If you say to a German der Lehrer then instantly they know you're referring to a male teacher.
If you say die are all Lehrer then it is clear that they're all teachers.

If you say to an english speaking person the teacher, then they're still left with not knowing if it is a female or male teacher.

If you say teacher to an Australian then you know instantly you're referring to someone on good pay with lots of holidays & .......

Here's one to argue about,
"Chairman" The "man" part of the word is Latin and refers to the hand.
In the Roman Senate when the chairman rose to speak he stood behind
his chair and placed his "hands" on the back of the chair.

Hence CHAIRMAN !

Want a crazy one Female - the male is in the female, surprised that one was not the first to be changed by the PC.

Article today about 3 females.

Three women have opened up about living with their non-traditional labels
They discussed being pansexual, sapiosexual, polyamorous and asexual
Renee Glover's sexuality isn't defined by an attraction to a particular gender
Gypsy Willow Artemis loves more than one person at any given time
Selena Seraphin said she doesn't have an interest in sex or relationships

Ms Glover personally identifies as both pansexual and sapiosexual and explained that pansexuality means she is attracted to people no matter how they identify

She didn't know how to define herself until her early 30s as she said the correct language hadn't been available to her any earlier than that.

'Sapiosexuality is a sexual attraction to intelligence, so for me, they sit really naturally together,' Ms Glover said

Rest of article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5940871/Three-women-revealed-really-like-living-non-traditional-sexualities.html

I guess I must identify as trysexual but only straight no bi or homo.

Bored women would once sit around in the shade sipping tea together, innocuously sharing gossip; now they hang out their clitoris for sampling, and share magazines such as “my vagina gently weeps”, “straight guys suck” and the “the greens express” (milk that is).

diver dan,
You did say bored woman but then you throw them in with today's females ?
i'd love to see real women on TV for a change.

individual That would count out "real housewives of Melbourne" more unrealistic.

"Sapiosexuality" - it's amazing now far people can get up themselves. Was it George Orwell who wrote that there is no idea so ridiculous that some academic or other will not believe it totally and promote it ?

Don't petals have better things to do ?

Joe

Dear o sung wu,

Perfectly acceptable that you flag that you are probably too old to move with social norms. I'm sure a few have left me behind already too. I've probably a few more years before I receive the official curmudgeonly old fart stripes on the sleeve but it is getting closer.

I'm wondering if you had any objection to the term policewoman? Did you feel the differentiation of the sexes was needed and appropriate? Or should police officer now be the standard?

If you are a traditionalist should we retain the term air hostess or stewardess rather than moving to flight attendant? What about those male nurses who fought to have the term 'Sister' replaced with 'Charge nurse'?

Or do you think that moving with the times recognises that most professions are no longer the exclusive domain of a particular sex and that our language should reflect that reality?

I get that some of it goes a little further than even I am comfortable with but these things balance themselves out and they really aren't a sign of the world coming to an end.

//Article today about 3 females.

Three women have opened up about living with their non-traditional labels
They discussed being pansexual, sapiosexual, polyamorous and asexual //

Good grief, do people really have nothing better to interest them than the sex lives of strangers? Grubby little perverts. Also suggests that they're not getting enough.

//Rest of article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5940871/Three-women-revealed-really-like-living-non-traditional-sexualities.html //

Oh, right. It's the Daily Mail. Well that explains everything.

Toni Lavis - Your comment above to my post shows your ignorance and bias.

The world does not revolve around you and only you, an understanding of other people etc is important to having an open mind on subjects.

When you consider other points of view it sometimes may help to improve your own opinions on subjects.

Does not mean you have to agree with them.

//an understanding of other people etc is important to having an open mind on subjects.//

Sure, but there's a difference between being open-minded and being a sticky-beak. Although it's probably largely subjective.

And the Daily Mail is still unadulterated crap. It's the sort of tabloid that even Kyle Sandilands would find a bit trashy. I'll get my anthropological knowledge from other sources if it's alright with you.

I'm very sorry folks I'm quite unwell today - sorry. o sung wu

Dear o sung wu,

No worries mate. Speak soon.

Cheers.

'And the Daily Mail is still unadulterated crap'

have to agree Toni although just above the fake abc news and its perverted dogmas.

It's all about control. tThey make up new rubbish rules to accomodate someone suffering terribly and being oppressed. Then they use those rules to oppress us. Irrational yes! Ignorant yes! They don't care, some sleazy lawyer can make a quid out of something and they will do anything. Even worse sleazy politicians start up a million dollar club paid for by us to oppress us.
Wait for the first prosecution behind closed doors to take money off you for not showing enough respect for some sexual nut job and see how you like it.
Personally I will start putting in myriad complaints and overwhelm them with their own bullish. Let's complain about Daniel Andrews not wearing a skirt that sort of thing.

JBower

Daniel Andrews paints porcelain pedestals pink. His wife runs around town running over teenagers in the dead of night, she is a ware wolf!

What "fake abc news", runner?

Have you fallen for Trump's lies as well as those of the neocons?

There are some things we just take for granted.

Words and their usage and what we grew up with.

For example - remember the old Star Trek films and the
saying - "where no man has gone before..."
Nobody thought of correcting that to - "Where no one has
gone before..." And the US Constitution that tells us -
"All men are created equal..." But that's a different story.

Anyway, I suppose one can now argue - should our language
change as we become more aware of the power of some words
and the distinctions being made or not? Especially as
professions that used to be male dominated - are now
attracting more and more women to them and vice-versa -
such as medicine, law, police-force, engineering,
architecture, - house- husbands, and even nursing.

cont'd ...

What do you call a male nurse?

Murse?

cont'd ...

Or a female doctor?

A Foctor?

I found all those on the web.

I thought it may be good for a bit of a laugh.

My views are so firmly entrenched I found it hard to comment much other than my first post some mums and dads are so convinced we need to be other than we are they even dress boys as girls, public flogging for such parents
would sell out fast if we sold tickets

Thank you Foxy for injecting some sense into this. We really must fight against this rubbish though. What about asking Danny what he wants to be called and then berating him whatever he says. Little nitwit deserves all he gets!

None of the examples you gave , Foxy, were pronouns. They are all pretty much accepted because they make description easier as more women enter these professions.

Of coarse, when they decided to ruin the Ghostbusters franchise by making it an all female affair they were quick to point out the 'actors' were indeed 'actresses'.

But what is talked about here is replacing he/she with xe or they etc, pretending that genders don't exist are aren't valid.

As long as such infantile games are played between consenting adults its ok. IF someone doesn't want to be a he but instead a xe AND the speaker concurs, then there's no problem. But as we know with all these things, they rapidly move from being mere options to being social conventions and ultimately enforceable 'truths'.

Its all about getting people to do as they're told. As was said of Soviet enforced acceptance of obvious lies, a people who accede to mouthing things they know are rubbish are much less likely to mouth illegal truths.

//For example - remember the old Star Trek films and the
saying - "where no man has gone before..."
Nobody thought of correcting that to - "Where no one has
gone before..."//

Ummm... yes they did. They did it for Star Trek: The Next Generation (the best intro sequence of any Star Trek to date) about 30 years ago now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnDtvZXYHgE

So, Individual, teachers have lots of holidays. Don't try that on my daughter-in-law. I asked her what she had planned for the last school holidays. Well, she said, I have 420 projects to mark before we go back to school. Steer well clear of her!

Gawd, I would have thought this thread would have long died.
No wonder the muslims say we are dying out with low fertility and
that they will take over.
That all this nonsense is being taught to our children is a crime.
The teachers should be prosecuted for cruelty.

A recent article about advertising said that the new rules state that
women cannot be shown doing housework.

Why not ? They do most of it anyway !
What a lot of bloody nonsense !
It has always been like that and it looks like not changing any time soon.
It was like that when men went out hunting and women gathered while
looking after the kids.
Is anything more natural ?
To argue against that is to argue that women should be stronger than men.
So we should start doing genetic engineering on women to make them stronger.
OK ? Good idea ?
Our societies are in real trouble when the elites start thinking like that.

Two jokes (sic) from Biology 1, when I did it aeons ago.
What is the common name of the species Homo sapiens? Man, embracing woman.
Man is a mammal who suckles his young.
And, new names for the states: Victoria and Albert, Thronespersonsland, Taspersonia.

Bazz,
is it any wonder more & more people join Islam ? It definitely starts to look more & more sane when compared to our academic morons.

I'd say there are not many planets on which women have not lived. I hear often it asked, "On which planet are you from?"

Hi STEELE;

Not only were female police called policewomen years back, they had a prefix to their official number (Not the identifying number the public can see on their uniforms, but their official number) denoting that they were female. That was some years ago now. Moreover they were heavily restricted as to what duties they could perform, and kept well away from the really brutal dangerous jobs that was the preserve of males. Today, there are very, very, few duties they're not permitted to undertake. Consequently several PW have received some shocking injuries, at the hands of some of these awfully violent creeps that pervade Sydney's streets at night. Almost always putting them out of the job such are the extent of injuries. I'm from the old school. Many PW's make superb detectives, but not so much, GD uniform police.

Dear Foxy,

I found your list

http://www.writinghelp-central.com/gender-neutral.html

rather entertaining, especially where they propose to refer to the Parable of the Prodigal Son as the Parable of the Lost Child, thus killing it completely.

Dear o sung wu,

Thanks for the reply, although with respect one might be forgiven for thinking you have skirted the points I had raised so forgive me for asking a question more directly.

Do you think male nurses were within their rights in calling for the more gender neutral term of charge nurse rather than sister in charge? Or as a traditionalist do you feel they should have just shut up and got on with it?

Dear George,

I'm glad that you found the link that I gave on
page 2 - entertaining. There's so much on the web
on this subject - and so much food for thought.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thanks for this discussion - its opened up a whole
new way of looking at things for me.
Interesting subject. I never questioned our language
previously. Just took words for granted.

Hi There FOXY & STEELEREDUX...

I'm sorry to everyone I'm not at all travelling too well at the moment, just returned from the respiratory surgeon, and I've never smoked in my life!

Dear FOXY...

Many thanks for your support on this particularly Topic, I do appreciate very much, your enthusiasm for the subject, that apparently is going to effect us all, in times to come. Being the erudite lady you are FOXY, who better than you, to examine and make comments on this whole new language variation? Thank you very much indeed.

Hi there STEELE...

I'm sorry, I wasn't on top of my game yesterday.

Your illustration of the male nurse being called 'sister', I accept is absurd. Therefore I think our language should reflect that absurdity. Concerning police; there are many many issues coppers can jack-up about, and do.

As an illustration - When I was Supervisory Sergeant, for an area of Western Sydney, the Roster Clerk generally determines the various 'crews' of two x member's each. Mindful that two female members, should never be paired. The Sup. Sgt, is allotted a driver, and on this occasion it was a female member. A young lass who should've been a model, she was truely beautiful. However, the other female members didn't especially like her (jealousy?), therefore the rumours and stories about her, abounded.

The following night the shift, comprised the same crew's. The Sgt's driver were always rotated as well. For some reason this lass was 'not' rotated, and remained my driver, two nights in a row. STEELE, If you could possibly imagine the 'blue', the 'kafuffle' that occurred over this very minor rostering error! Police are very culturally orientated, and big on seniority, even though seniority, no longer formally exists. Allegations were lodged against me, interfering with the roster etc. I was over 50 yoa, and married. And though the allegation was baseless, as a supervisory sergeant, it didn't do my reputation much good, neverthelass especially with the younger, newer members just starting out? Thus my transference to Detectives, was a god-send I reckon?

Dear O Sung Wu,

I'm sorry that you're not feeling the best at the moment.
I've got some serious things to consider as well.

As you know - since my fall some time back - I've had
problems with my shoulder (amongst other things).
I totally shattered my humerus.

Anyway - because I lost
so much blood when they operated on my right leg (I
shattered my femur) they did not operate on my shoulder
and let it heal "naturally." I've been in pain ever since.
And I can't lift that arm beyond a certain height.

Now I'm told that they can operate on the shoulder - but
there are risks involved. I could have a stroke, blood clots
on the lungs, et cetera. I'm seeing the specialist in a
few weeks and I have to make a decision.

I'm scared of the
stroke business. And I don't know what to decide. Put up
with the pain - or have the op?

Anyway, sorry for boring you with this - but what would you
do? any advice? I would love for things to return to normal.
But I'm scared if I get worse than I am now.

Dear FOXY...

I understand fully what you're saying - and believe me, none of it is boring. The questions are; have the operation, with a possible risk of a stroke and other complications? Or preserver with the pain, which undoubtedly will worsen over time, and generally affect the quality of your life?

To my way of thinking - If the particular specialist you're seeing in a couple of weeks, is the one who's performing the surgery on your shoulder, and he's of the opinion, (i) your shoulder Op will be a success, expressed in terms of percentages. And (ii) the risks mentioned, by having this Op are (a)blood clots in your lungs; and/or (b) suffering a stroke; also expressing the possibility of either, in terms of percentages - 5% through to 15% as an example?

My understanding, if Doctor's can quickly inject reversal (Stroke) drugs, into your system, thus the effects of a Stroke can be almost eliminated. And you're already in hospital, so they can reverse a Stroke very quickly, because you're aready on site.

The blood clots in your lungs? I've not heard anything, remedial or otherwise about these Blood clots in the lungs? An issue you can discuss with the Specialist in a couple of weeks time.
Foxy.

Should you decide NOT to have the operation on your shoulder, presumably the pain will worsen and your lifestyle could deteriorate. My first wife Elizabeth (we'd divorced by then), had very very painful knees. We had a most cordial parting and remained good friends, speaking weekly on the 'phone. She used to appraise me of the treatment protocols she was having and it, consisted of Physio, and the more holistic remedies to try and fix them. Naturally, none of it seemed to work? I think provided your Doctors are confident of a good outcome, then perhaps, mayby you should be you too Foxy?

I'm sorry if it's somewhat 'garbled' FOXY - Please take care.

Foxy; it's now becoming more common and acceptable to use gender-neutral terms when writing and speaking
in English."

Only with those people who wish to be seen as “In” with the Leftist PC Crowd. Like those people who started saying “Impordent” instead of “Important.” What they didn’t realize was that the people that said “Impordent” had a tongue piercing & couldn’t get the “T” to sound right. 😉 Mostly “Girls.” Then it became fashionable for the people that act like those Caterpillars that follow one another around in single file smelling the one in fronts bum.

Flight Attendant or Flight Stewardess. Given that most male Flight Attendants are Gay then Stewardess would be more appropriate, don’t you think?😉

<"Forefathers," - "Ancestors,"> Hmmm… Do you think they’ll have to change the American Constitution?

Most of these terms are used depending on which context they are being used in. To suddenly be forced to change just to appease some Leftist PC Minority Fad is ridiculous.

I am offended by the forced change.

Now with the decree by the Minister for the Army. I am waiting for the entire Straight members to all front up at the same time & ask for a Discharge. Given what's happening in the Armed Forces now-a-days. Then the Armed Forces wild be left with the GLTBI members to carry on, so to speak.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You so much for such a prompt and caring response.

I've written down some of your questions to ask my specialist
in a few weeks time. And I'll see what he says before making
up my mind.

Dear Jayb.,

I haven't changed my speech in any way - but as I said
earlier - it is interesting to think about words and their
meanings. I'm quite enjoying this discussion.

Dear o sung wu,

Sorry to hear the body is not behaving. Being respiratory I can't even recommend some 'medicinal' pot to take the edge off.

You were rightly quick to accept that a gender neutral term like 'charge nurse' be deployed because of the absurdity of calling male nurses 'Sisters'. I also note that you rightly again didn't raise the term 'Brothers' as a replacement for male nurses.

Do you understand that women might also see as absurd those traditionalists attempting to hold on male gender specific terms for roles that have increasing numbers of women in them? Do you appreciate them as women seeking to have gender neutral labels applied instead?

This has to cut both ways otherwise it is unfair and belittling.

Upon reading/following this thread, I am surprised none of the normall linguists have explained why certain words are what they are.
One person actually opened the door but the lefty loonies quickly shut it again before anyone could expand on his message.
My point is, our language is derived from and beholding to Latin, with a few detours along the way when various Kings and Queens married French or Germans, as is evident in our language.
As was pointed out by one contributor, the word 'chairman' had NOTHING to do with being masculine.
It is a NOUN, a name.
And so it is extremely arrogant to demand the forced changes to any words merely because a few sick and selfish arrogant and ignorant types want to attempt to elevate themselves to a position of superiority and entitlement.
Any changes to a language occur at a much higher level than that of a very sick minority with a baseless reason or an indulgent agenda.
I for one am quite happy to use words like 'foreman', 'chairman', for both male or female, just as 'nurse' or 'policeman'.
These are NAMES not sexual indicators.
As someone already said, what are we supposed to call a 'HUMAN'?
This is a sick agenda promoted by sick people with superiority complexes.
No-one has seriously considered complaining about this issue because they would immediately be labelled, badly.
These people should at the very least be ignored, at the most abused and chastised for daring to impose/force their unwarranted agenda on society.
There is nothing wrong or broken with our language, therefore there is no sane reason to justify these changes, especially when they are being promoted by such social rejects.
Some years ago the govt shut down the mental institutions to save money in trying to balance the budget.
In doing so they basically turfed everyone out on the street. (so to speak)
People have since wondered what happened to them.
Well, some of them have surfaced in the news having committed various crimes.
And some are even contributors to OLO in support and promoting this rubbish.

//Being respiratory I can't even recommend some 'medicinal' pot to take the edge off.//

Sure you can. It's edible as well as smokeable :)

being promoted by such social rejects.
ALTRAV,
I'm impressed by your self control with your rather kind description of these sense-deficients.

Toni Lavis Quote "the Daily Mail is still unadulterated crap"

runner Quote "have to agree Toni"

They at least have the guts to report news some MSM will not touch.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6039407/Hundreds-youths-African-descent-reportedly-attack-police-officers-rocks-Melbourne.html

Locals told to 'stay inside and lock their doors' as hundreds of youths of African descent reportedly attack police officers with rocks in Melbourne's north

Police, air police and dog squad called to Taylors Hill in north-west Melbourne
The youths are believed to have damaged a police vehicle by throwing a rock
Despite damage to the police vehicle window there were no injuries reported
Residents have said that they are scared and were told by police to stay inside

A swarm of youths have gathered and allegedly thrown a number of projectiles, leading to a police vehicle being damaged.

Police were called to Taylors Hill, in Melbourne, following reports that a 'large group of youths' began to gather in the area at 5.30pm.

Police reported that 'a number of projectiles, believed to be rocks, were thrown and a police vehicle was damaged'.

However despite damage to the police vehicle rear window there were no injuries or threat to community safety.

The youths, who were reported as being of African descent by the Herald Sun, left the area a short time later.

A Bronte Way resident told the publication that police told them to 'stay inside'.

A number of specialist units were utilised including the Operations Response Unit and the Public Order Response Team to ensure public safety.'

Police air wing and the dog squad were also present.

It has also been reported by the Herald Sun that responding officers were wearing riot gear.

Police continued to monitor the area and will investigate damage to the vehicle.

* Like usual no arrests *

Foxy, sorry about your health problems and would like to offer a little advice.
Orthopaedic surgeons love cutting into people and never give you the option of alternative treatment. So, I suggest you do some research and see if physio or another area might help.
Years ago I had a frozen shoulder. Couldn’t lift my arm, couldn’t do up my bra etc. was on light duties at work. The complications from surgery to repair this were quite horrific, including a broken arm.
The surgeons pushed hard to get me under the knife but I did some research and discovered a whole range of exercises on Youtube, specifically designed for that condition.
When I mentioned this to the surgeon he was very dismissive and told me it would take a long time, at least a year of twice daily exercises. I replied that I was prepared to do that, and I did. Stayed on light duties at work for a year, exercised religiously and totally cured my condition.
20 years later it’s still perfect.
Hopefully you can find a solution like this that will help your condition without causing
side affects.
I have always lived by the premise that if the cure is worse than the disease then live with the disease. Which is why I take so few medications, despite having some serious medical issues, because the side affects of the drugs are worse than the actual problem.

Dear Big Nana,

Bless You.

I've been in and out of hospital so many times now that
frankly - I'm terrified of going under the knife.
And what you're saying makes perfect sense. I am managing
with my fractured left shoulder at present. I take 2
panamax tablets at night, find a comfortable position, and
I sleep OK. I need help getting dressed - and with showering,
and my husband helps in this area. Although I do wish that
he didn't have to. I feel like a burden to him. Which is the
primary reason I was considering going under the knife.
But you're right - I should ask for and try alternative
methods first - and see how I go.

Again - Thank You. You've made my day!

God Bless.

Glad to be of help Foxy.
I suggest you see a physiotherapist first. They are really good at assessing physical problems and recommending a course of action. If they tell you surgery is the only option then they will be correct because they see surgery as a last option. The other resource is an Occupational Therapist who can give you both advice and equipment to help you manage your daily activities, including getting dressed. You will surprised at how many gadgets exist to help with these things.
Good luck..

Dear Big Nana,

Once again - Many Thanks.

Great advice.

Will do!

I fell of a three wheeler when I was four & dislocated my Pelvis. (not quite formed solid) I spent 3 months in a hospital & they said I would never walk. My Cousins came to my rescue ( they're Chiropractors. The old type not the new ones you get to day. All seven of them worked on me from 7 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon in relays.

I ended up running out of the house. Saying that, I was never fully right & I had the equivalent of walking up a Miranda slope (4 degrees) all my life. Tiring. The bones in my lower Spine ended up collapsing bone on Bone, two vertebra (L5, S1 & 2) & 3 in my neck. (C2,3 & 4) I had the operation & had replacement disks (3 of one 16mm & 2 8mm) I'm now 32mm taller than I was 2 years ago. The pain in my neck is totally gone. Without acting I would have lost the use of my arms within two years. Unfortunately with 66 years of damage to contend with the Sciatic nerve on the left side is damaged beyond repair. However the Operation has eliminated the walking up hill feeling. But I do have some residual pain in my back that I can at lease live with for about the next 20 years at least, I hope.

Oh with the neck. I had a horse roll on me when I was about 10.

It all depends what is wrong. Disintegrated Disk, Bulging Disk, turned or the vertebra have moved in or out.

I've had a Laminectomy which fixed 2 bulging disks directly into my Spinal chord as opposed to bulging out to the side into the Sciatic Nerve. Very close to not walking again. The surgeon said it was like old lace.

You do what's best for you Foxy. Best of luck girl.

Dear Jayb.,

Gee whiz - you've been through the wars by the sound of
it you poor thing.

What happened to me was - I had a bad fall and prior to
the fall I wasn't aware that I had "brittle bones."
Well it turns out that I smashed the bones in my right leg
(femur) and the humerus in my left shoulder plus the bones
in my right wrist. They operated on my right leg (put in a
plate) and on my wrist (another plate). However because I'd
lost so much blood - they left my shoulder to heal
"naturally." Therein lies the problem. The bones have grown
in a peculiar way and apparently need correction. I don't
quite understand it - all I know is that I am in pain, I
can't lift my arm beyond a certain distance. I struggle
to shower and dress. So they're suggesting I go under the
knife.

Anyway, I'm going to try and take up Big Nana's suggestions -
and see how far I can get with other alternatives. I'm
scared of having more operations because they've told me
that there are risks - such as a stroke, or death.
I already have heart probs. _I suffer from high pulse rates,
and a heart flutter as well as an irregular heart beat.
I've already ended up in hospital - in emergency - with
SVT (Supraventricular tachycardia) AF (Atrial Fibilation)
and AFL (abnormal heart rhythm) - all in the one evening.
They took me to emergency - I had to have three injections,
and ended up in hospital for a week. That's why I'm now
scared of any operation.

Jay - Thanks for your concern and well wishes. I've got the
appointment with my surgeon on 21st August so I'll have plenty
of questions to ask.

Take care - And All The Best.

cont'd ...

I just wanted to add - that's another reason why I love
OLO so much. It keeps me active mentally - and I rely
on so much good advice from people that have come to mean
a great deal to me. It's a great and meaningful diversion
too - and stops me from feeling sorry for myself. It
gives me so much more to think about. So much worthwhile
conversation.

Dearest Foxy,

I hope you take Big Nana's advice, she's a very experienced nurse, so that you can be with us on OLO for many decades yet :)

Hey, where did the topic of the thread go ;)

Love,

Joe

Nah, Foxy with all that going on & our age I wouldn't. Try the Stretching exercises as big Nana would suggest. That's what I do. Although, I've been shoveling soil for the last week & I'll think I've over done it. So a week off for me. Still the job got to be finished.

I'm replacing Paver stairs down to my Shed. 6 Steps 5 Pavers wide then some Concrete at the bottom to meet up with the path.

Dear Joe,

We'll I did get side-tracked and off topic - big time.
My apologies to O Sung Wu. I guess I jumped in to have
a bit of a whinge when O Sung Wu said he wasn't
feeling the best - and off I went. Sorry.

But that's what we do all the time on OLO.

Dear Jayb.,

What you're doing sounds like a lot of work - I have
enough problems just going for my early morning walks.
Still - I feel worse if I don't do it.

Now back to the topic...

cont'd ...

Now, back to the topic.

Can any of you word experts tell me why do the following
words contain the "man, male, his," in them?
For example -

Woman and female, and human, and history (his story).

What are the origins?

Dear Foxy,

The Greek word "historia" of course had no association with gender, except that it is a feminine word (otherwise it would have been "historios" I suppose). Somebody will correct me on this :)

Perhaps the same accidental pseudo-association occurs with "man" and "human". "Man" would be derived from Germanic languages and probably originally meant "person" rather than anything gender-specific, while "human" would have been derived from the Latin "humanitas" (which again, is feminine).

Love,

Joe

Could it be like in my post man means hand, ie an animal with hands.
What older language might have used man for hand and perhaps passed
it into Latin.

Try reading Genesis Foxy. Tells you clearly where not only the term but also male and female comes from.

Female: from Old French femelle, from Latin femella, diminutive of femina ‘a woman’. The change in the ending was due to association with male, but the words male and female are not linked etymologically.

Woman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman#Etymology

Human: late Middle English humaine, from Old French humain(e), from Latin humanus, from homo ‘man, human being’.

//Try reading Genesis Foxy. Tells you clearly where not only the term but also male and female comes from.//

A book written in Hebrew well before the emergence of Modern English contains detailed etymological information about Modern English words? Yeah, sounds legit. [sarcasm]

Thank You Everyone for all your inputs.

As I stated earlier - this is fun - and
am learning a lot. ;-)

Runner,

Do you mean the ancient Hebrew-language version or the King James version of the English translation of the Greek translation of the Aramaic version of the Hebrew ?

Most of the languages have some direct path from Latin.
One of these being a direct descendant from Latin was Italian.
Many words sound similar to Italian, which can then be traced back to it's Latin/Greek beginnings.
Latin was adopted by the Greeks and then again by the ROMANS who became Italians.
The following are some of the current Italian words and their English counterparts.
The word 'UOMO' meaning 'man' immediately demonstrates this.
As do; 'UMANO', human.
The months of the year, GENAIO, January. FEBRAIO, February. MARZO, March, NOVEMBRE, November, DICEMBRE, December, and so on.
The numerical system; UNO, one. DUE, two. TRE, Three. and so on.
As time passed and much later kings and queens married French and Germans and we introduced some of their inflections, the use of the 'ough' in words, like cough or rough.
French was a little more difficult as it has so many silent letters but it accepted some Latin words in return.
One that comes to mind is the word silence.
Very similar in Italian English and French.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it in French but it is similar to Italian, which is; SILENSIO.
I am very rusty on this topic but I'm somewhere in the ball park.
All Latin countries have adopted the Greek/Italian 'speak' as their 'native' language.

Hi there ALTRAV & FOXY...

Thank you ALTRAV...

For your interesting explanation on the Latin. While it's true, as a police officer, some Latin is still in use today, and probably will remain so for years to come, knowing the Force as I know it. Very very slow to change. On a personal note I would like to formerly study Latin, as it would seem it's a language that has a word or phrase that virtually covers every situation? Or am I wrong? Anyway enquiries reveal, one needs to attend a formal class in order to to fully understand the correct pronunciation of words and their usage. Unfortunately I'm too old now to attend classes for anything. Nevertheless thank you anyway.

Hi there FOXY...

I'm really dreadfully sorry, it would appear that I've tried to steer or encourage you, to have the surgery on your shoulder, while many here on the Forum, have suggested otherwise! In future I'll keep my big mouth firmly shut, for fear that I may encourage someone to make a bad choice, in something as vitally important as having a surgical procedure. I'm so very sorry FOXY.

Dear O Sung Wu,

No need to apologise. All I wanted was a variety
of opinions - and those I certainly got. So Thank You
for being honest, which is what I wanted.
I shall ask many questions (I've got a list made up)
from the specialist - and look at all the alternatives
before making the final decision as to what I shall do.

cont'd ...

You're going to laugh - but I've now become more
aware of the language and words that I use. It's
getting to the point of being silly. Eating out
the other evening - we had both a male and a
female serving us - and I couldn't help but
wonder - what should I call them - "waiter"
or "waitress?" what's the gender neutral term that
could be applied to both? Well I ended up calling
each of them according to their gender - "waiter"
for the male, and "waitress" for the female.

Then a letter arrived by mistake in our letter-box.
It belonged to our next door neighbour - address to
Mrs Michael Kelty. Again I made a mental note -
should it have been addressed to Ms Evonne Kelty?

So many thoughts running through my mind.

Is it correct to say - "This is a man-size job?"
Or should we say - 'This is a complex (huge, large,
enormous) job?" And what else do you call a -
"Manhole?" - And - "Access hatch?" (hee, hee, hee).

Gotta laugh.

Thank you very much for that FOXY, I was concerned I may've influenced you towards surgery?

Concerning the 'correct' protocol for posting a letter to a lady...sorry another slip. What a mean to say, posting a letter to a person of the more gentler and attractive gender (still wrong!!). Sorry, I give up?

When you address a letter to a lady, and you're unsure of her marital status, you employ the term Ms. Which is neither Miss or Mrs? However on a more serious note FOXY, I believe our language was designed to accommodate words that were gender specific. As such I really can't see what harm it does, for our language to remain exactly as it is. Sure, some words can be made gender neutral, but others should simply be left alone in my opinion.

Your example of a manhole made me laugh! That said, it's probably aptly termed, coined to describe such an opening for 'men' specifically. Few women would ever wish to access, nor have a need, to enter such a dirty, confined space that's either above or below them.

Waiter. Airline steward. Police officer. Teacher. Doctor. Minister. Actor. Driver. Firefighter. Ambulance officer. School principal. Cooks and chefs. Reverend. Bank teller (if they still exist).

So what's the problem ? It shouldn't take much imagination to use such 'gender-neutral' i.e. common-sense, terms. Even 'nurse' doesn't have to be confined to one gender. If ever there are male seamstresses, I suppose they could be called 'seamsters'. If.

I am all in favour of 'access hatches': the more accessible, the better. I have no interest in 'man-hole covers'. Oops, now I'll be in trouble with the homosexual lobby :)

Joe

Thanks guys,

Makes perfect sense.

One of the things I never 'got' was, for example, homosexual. If I follow on from the discussion, I imagine it to mean a male sex addict.
I wonder how some words came to be. They don't actually describe the intended target at all. We know it 'means' someone who leans towards males sexually, I think.

//One of the things I never 'got' was, for example, homosexual. If I follow on from the discussion, I imagine it to mean a male sex addict.//

Homosexual confuses a lot of people because they mistakenly assume that the 'homo' part comes from the Latin for 'human', as in homo sapiens. But in this case it comes from the Greek prefix homo meaning 'the same' - the same sense in which it is applied words like homogenisation and homologous

Right got it!
Why then, if it is the origin of 'the same', don't we use the same word to describe females as 'homosexual' and not as 'lesbians'?
I thought 'homo' had its origins from, for example, in Italian, Uomo. Meaning 'man'.
A common explanation for homo sapiens is 'wise man'.
I can only reference through the Italian meanings which are the closest language to Latin.
So the homo sapiens, or wise man, comes from, (in Italian) the words HOMO, UOMO and SAPIENS, SAPERE; To know or knowledge and hence 'WISE MAN'.
The relationship and transition from Latin to Greek to Italian to English is a fascinating one which becomes ever so obvious when one looks closer into their evolution and journey into todays languages.

//Why then, if it is the origin of 'the same', don't we use the same word to describe females as 'homosexual' and not as 'lesbians'?//

We do. Homosexual is a unisex term that covers male homosexuals ('gays') and female homosexuals ('lesbians').

//I thought 'homo' had its origins from, for example, in Italian, Uomo. Meaning 'man'.
A common explanation for homo sapiens is 'wise man'.//

Yep, that's the Latin meaning of homo. It's different in the Greek.

//I have no interest in 'man-hole covers'. Oops, now I'll be in trouble with the homosexual lobby :)//

I don't think they're all that interested in covering their man-holes, Joe ;)

HaHa, good one Toni.

O Sung Wu- I sympathized with your thread comments. Thanks. Louie Theroux had the "trans gender kids" documentary- based in California- horrifying. As with most things its a bit nature and a bit nurture. There are cultural aspects to gender. Sometimes when psychology diverges from the average its because human needs aren't being met and it can result in sickness. The dark triad of criminal psychology (narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy). Perhaps in some cases gender issues could perhaps be related to narcissism crossed with psychopathy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abnormal_psychology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

It concerns me to think that some are conducting gender experiments on our most vulnerable members of our society. The parent has to be the responsible one and they need to protect children sometimes even from themselves. Parents don't have all the answers and neither do psychologists.
Perhaps there should be a focus on addressing healthy "Big Five" ( openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism) rather than the current focus on "gender issues".

Socialists are so funny.

Foxy mentioned Star Trek- I remember Sulu actor talking about influencing Gene Roddenberry to introduce gay concepts for social engineering purposes. It puts the line "where no man has gone before" in a whole different light.

I watched the film "Kinky Boots" last night on SBS.
It certainly put the entire "gender" issue in a
different light for me - and the definition of
what being "masculine" means.

This looks interesting... The Black Book of Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Foxy, what was the theme of the show in a nut shell?
I know what I think is masculine.
All I can draw from the word 'Masculine' is 'Muscholi', as it is in Italian.
Muscholi in Italian means muscles.
So from this I draw the conclusion that the show was about a muscley person or persons.
Or just about muscles.

ALTRAV,

The following link should clarify things for you:

http://theroarbots.com/2018/work-hard-and-be-about-something-kinky-boots/

Sorry Foxy, I found it a little too overplayed.
If we're talking about raising children, I vehemently oppose any form of 'grooming' which is very much the ideology of todays parents.
I firmly believe and practiced letting my children grow up with their own ideals and simply watched over them as a disciplinarian and corrected them when and where necessary.
Children do not have the ability to make a lot of decisions until they are adults and much more mature.
I cannot stand these parents who must involve themselves with their kids at every turn.
This is the problem with kids today.
In the fear that we will end up with kids that do not fit societies mold, they hover over them and in doing so are guilty of the worst sin today.
It is even illegal.
'Grooming'.
Yes, taken to it's most sinister and degenerate form we are grooming the masculinity out of boys in an attempt to turn them into these sick minded parents idea of a almost effeminate male.
Wrong!
Teach them morals and respect, but do not change who they are.
Just because you don't like what they happen to have become, too bad.
They are they're own person.
You must back off and let them be who they want to be.
If they don't turn out to be who you want them to be, be happy for them and move on.
If one or both my sons turned queer, I would not be happy, but that's their choice and if that's what they truly feel then so be it.
The same as if they turned out to be criminals.
They are still our children.
If it is something you cannot accept, whatever it is, you may have to distance yourself from them if it is that bad.
They will be whoever they grow up to be.
I have seen where the parents have, in my opinion, tried too hard to be 'good parents',only to have the child distance themselves as an adult.

ALTRAV,

Unfortunately you have missed the point entirely.
I guess you needed to have
seen the film.

To Altrav- Perhaps Foxy should read Ayn Rand.

Canem Malum, I agree.
I was thoroughly disgusted with the lefty loony 'deplorables', who had to come out and make such rubbish comments.
They have shown how Rand was in fact right by attempting to denigrate her and successful people and try to accuse the same people of the economic failures of the City of London and Wall st.
These same ignoramuses refuse to see the truth as it will make them look stupid if they acknowledge the true facts and not their version of the truth/facts.

Canem Malum,

Ayn Rand was intensely exciting to me when I was
a teenager looking for answers to life's big
questions. Today - I look elsewhere for intellectual
sustenance.

Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 12 August 2018 11:25:18 AM-
"Canem Malum, Ayn Rand was intensely exciting to me when I was a teenager looking for answers to life's big questions. Today - I look elsewhere for intellectual sustenance."

Answer- Yes "Ayn Rand" can't be considered a work of academia- her words didn't change my life- but her work is still "important". "Academia and Universities can't be trusted" by the people- hence Ayn Rand

It's sad.
The left only look and go to the left.
This is why they are not progressives.
They don't/can't actually get anywhere.
When one holds the steering wheel of a car to the left and does not turn back, ever, the result is they simply keep going around in circles, going over the same ground again and again, until or unless they are prepared to come back to the centre once in a while and look forward or to the right every now and then.

To Foxy through the chair- Kudos for at least reading Ayn Rand. Some find their courage fails them when public opinion is against them- Balthasar Gracian said "Better mad with the rest of the world than wise alone."

o sung wu,

To get back to your subject, I would guess that you, like I, don't have much, if anything, to do with the weirdos who think they can be whatever gender they decide to be. We are very fortunate to have spent most of our lives without this crap. We can't do anything about it, but it cannot hurt or affect us either. And, we have our memories of saner times. We have seen many fads come and go, and we will probably see this one out, too; the nutters want non-stop change, and cannot concentrate for very long on anything. The #me too nonsense has fizzled out like a weak fart, so too will most of the bullshite the university 'unlearned’ children have thought up.

Hi there TTBN...

I've been a bit remiss in not taking part in this discussion, I've been a bit crook, still am. So I must apologise for that. Starting a topic and then dropping off.

TTBN I couldn't agree with you more, with your erudite synopsis of what's happening to us all here in Australia? As you say '...we have our memories of saner times...' I guess we should be grateful to have done so I suppose. I believe since the inception of this insidious Political Correctness, we're seeing all our former, great places of learning being turned into God knows what!

I totally blame this all corrupting P.C. rubbish, being just a form of 'verbal dictatorship', and it really worries me and most of those of our generation, many of whom went to war against such 'dictatorships'!

I believe Political Correctness is the greatest threat to our culture, our way of life, our ability to engage in free speech, and to be ourselves - since the advent of WWll. It's permeated it's insidious way into everything including our last bastions of strength, our Armed Forces. Where to now? What do you think TTBN am I worrying unnecessarily?

Given Christopher Pyne became the Minister for Defence Industry and apparently wants the Defence Ministry it's not surprising the sad state of the military. The "death symbols" thing seems to be the sort of thing that Christopher Pyne would push to emasculate the military. I feel pity for our serving personnel being managed by these people.

Canem Malum,

As far as Ayn Rand is concerned?

No kudos is necessary for my reading her works.
My reading is wide and varied.

I won't say any more
as I don't want to divert this discussion any further.
Suffice to quote Dorothy Parker - when speaking
about one of Rand's novels: " This is not a book that
should be tossed lightly aside. It should be hurled
with great force."

As for crowds, wisedom and being alone?

I like what Albert Einstein once said,

"The woman who follows the crowd will usually go no
further than the crowd. The woman who walks alone is
likely to find herself in places no one has ever been
before."

Canem Malum, I think I like this Rand person.
Mostly because of the angst and anger she has extracted from the pathetic left.
The many negative rants and drivel expressed in the comments column after the main text, was unbelievably revealing as to just how stupid the left really are.
None of the commentors would have a clue as to what they were saying let alone understand what Rand was really on about.
The extreme aggression in the comments were completely unnecessary and unjustified.
When the left have no answers or understanding of a topic in question, they turn to the gutter for enlightenment and direction, including as a source of information from which to form answers in response, such as those on this article.

o sung wu,

“What do you think TTBN am I worrying unnecessarily?”

If you didn't worry, you would be someone else, not yourself. But, worrying about strange ideas put about by strange people will not stop them, so all you can do is say what you think and stick with it. Even voting won't help, because there is so little difference between parties and politicians. Australia will have to go right to the bottom now, before anything changes.

Lately I've been seeing commentators describe our century - the 20th - as the worst century. I don't agree with that. My life, and those of most Australians, steadily improved after the war; in some cases, the improvement was rapid. The economy grew; we were on the “sheep's back; you could change jobs as you pleased; you could buy your own home without the wife having to work; people were happy to live within their means; the family was important; we made things and we invented things. The 21st century …. well, I don't really like talking about it.

Dearb Foxy,

>> I like what Albert Einstein once said,<< …

I nice quote but perhaps ,you should check

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/10/18/follows-crowd/ .

Dear George,

Thank You for that information - and for the fact that the number
who actually liked the quote exceeded 500.

I especially also liked the quote given - from Oscar Wilde.

Great stuff.

This is what makes the forum interesting.
Keep it up!

//The many negative rants and drivel expressed in the comments column after the main text//

Sorry, what article are you referring to?

Toni, Calem Malum, has mentioned it in response to his comment on page 17.
He refers to the author Ayn Rand.
I looked it up.
The responses were much more telling than the article.
The comments were from bent and twisted angry minds.
The article seems to promote the kind of people the entitled ones don't like.
The wealthy person.
So according to the deplorables, if you have succeeded in life, it must have been at the expense of the poor.
Or a theme along those lines.
My comments are based on, after having read her resume, the comment section that followed, and was taken over by the morons and is a list of idiots who, it appears, expects a successful person to give them his wealth because the people made the money for him to become rich.
How many holes can YOU find in that argument?
Take a moment to read it, its worth a quick read.

//Toni, Calem Malum, has mentioned it in response to his comment on page 17.
He refers to the author Ayn Rand.//

OK, but his comment on page 17 is just:

//To Altrav- Perhaps Foxy should read Ayn Rand.//

Which isn't very specific. Ayn Rand wrote a lot of stuff.

//I looked it up.//

Yes, so did I. If you Google 'Ayn Rand' you get a lot of articles about Ayn Rand. Which specific one are you referring to?

//The responses were much more telling than the article.
The comments were from bent and twisted angry minds.//

None of the sites I looked at had comment sections. I'm still in the dark here.

//Take a moment to read it, its worth a quick read.//

OK, I'll do that, if I ever find out what it is.

Toni, I suppose one of the ones I refer to is; after Googling in her name you go down to the one titled; The new age of Ayn Rand:how she won over Trump and Silicon..........
There are many more but the comments at the end of this particular article are an indictment on the loony left, and demonstrate a certain kind of social toxicity that is very disturbing.
She's just another person with an opinion.
I don't see her being that important that she commands such a large amount of negative sentiment, if any at all.
But For some reason the loony left decided that what she believes IS relevant and/or so important/relevant that it deserved to be attacked for some unknown reason.
Hmm, go figure.

//There are many more but the comments at the end of this particular article are an indictment on the loony left, and demonstrate a certain kind of social toxicity that is very disturbing.//

I dunno, most of them seem fairly mild compared to some of the rants you go on.

//She's just another person with an opinion.
I don't see her being that important that she commands such a large amount of negative sentiment, if any at all.
But For some reason the loony left decided that what she believes IS relevant and/or so important/relevant that it deserved to be attacked for some unknown reason.//

So, like most of the people you rant about then?

//Hmm, go figure.//

Oh believe me, I've tried.

OK Toni, if I put down someone or some groups, it is with reason.
If I do it is because their beliefs are questionable, yet they believe everyone who does not agree with them are wrong.
If I go on the attack it is because I don't believe they are right.
So where's the problem?
Same goes for these morons and their negative comments about Ayn Rand.
Just because she is writing about a right wing view she must be wrong, according to these halfwits.
Did you read the comments or are you going to join the loony left line to offer another superfluous lefty negative comment.
I am not caring what she says, she is allowed to say what she believes, through research and studies.
The responses are based on emotion with little or no research into her reasoning.
They just don't like what she has written.
Big deal.
They are irrelevant.
Her comments give some insights as to how one can become wealthy.
The scum have no clue about anything other than to disagree with anyone who is not left.

Hi ALTRAV...

I don't believe there's anyone on this Forum, more astute, wise, or shrewd than Ayn RAND, whether they're Left, Right or Centre. You can't achieve the world wide acclaim or intellectual accolades of Ms RAND, without recognising some notable substance about her or her views. You don't have to agree with her, just admit she's a formidable adversary if you don't?

O Sung Wu, I think you have been mis-led.
I agree with her.
I'm OK with her views.
My comments are about the many caustic and negative, angry comments left on her site at the end of her comments.
I was neither praising nor bagging HER.
My post was only about the people who responded to her comments and how they were vial, angry, sick individuals.
I thought I was bad with some of my level of abuse on these forums, but WOW! These guys make me look absolutely angelical.
So that's what it was all about.
Not bagging her, but her detractors.

Alt Rave,

My understanding is that Ayn Rand left Russia in the twenties and died around fifty years ago.

Joe

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“I don't believe there's anyone on this Forum, more astute, wise, or shrewd than Ayn RAND, whether they're Left, Right or Centre”

Probably right however I would hope we were a little less hypocritical. Rand was virulently against any form of social security or medicare but in her later years secretly applied for and got both. I say secretly because she gave her lawyer power of attorney and he arranged for both benefits without her having to sign for either so she could keep her 'integrity'.

Not my cup of tea.

Loudmouth: My understanding is that Ayn Rand left Russia in the twenties and died around fifty years ago.

I have a question. Are someone's views, that were formed 50 to 100 years ago, relevant in todays World?

I have the same doubts about "Old Philosophers Theories."

G'day there STEELEREDUX & JAYB...

Whether her or other philosophers, are relevant in our modern times 2018, one thing I know for sure - she's far smarter then I am, so as such I pay her the courtesy of taking notice of a lot of her opinions and quotations. That said do I always have to agree with her, no of course not. One of the most famous philosophers in all of mankind once said (my words) '...if someone gives you a smack in the mouth, turn the other cheek...'? Never could I do that, most men can't.

Thanks O Sung Wu for your comments- I hope we keep you healthy as long as we can.

Ayn Rand's philosophy is Objectivism. It is best summarized in her science fiction novel "Atlas Shrugged" and "Fountainhead" which was made into a movie. They are both available on the web if you look. I'd suggest reading Fountainhead first. Her works are fairly robust- it may change your view of the world.

Some of her work appears similar to Nietzsche- but Nietzsche is even harder to understand.

Her philosophy in my understanding says that- if you give stuff to those that have no chance to ever contribute to the world and in fact attack you in return as well as the rationality of the world- this is suicidal.

Ayn Rand was very influential in corporate America in the sixties- Alan Greenspan of the Federal Reserve was a follower. She also criticized capitalism at times. Some of her ideas were a function of the era.

The reason this came up is because- and I could be mistaken- Foxy appeared to send someone on a wild goose chase into socialist propaganda. I thought I'd send Foxy on a wild goose chase of my own... tongue in cheek. All is fair...
But to Foxy's credit she has read some Ayn Rand but perhaps needs to brush up on the details.

Sorry ALTRAV...I wasn't having a go at you my friend. What I was trying to say, Ayn RAND is one very very smart lady, who'd probable run rings around most of us here on OLO, or The Forum.I'm NOT saying I agree with her on everything I've read, but no one can deny she's one very clever lady, whether one agrees with her or otherwise.

Hi there CANEM MALUM...

Thank you so much for your good wishes apropos my health. I'm still in the vertical, so that's something I guess. I must say your argument(s) are compelling, so I guess you're a well educated gentleman, and well read. I like the Forum, because just about everyone here are good people - whether from the Left; Centre; or the Right. Moreover I've got dementia creeping up on me, and according to the Neuropsychologist at the Repatriation Hospital, Graham YOUNG's 'The Forum' is a very good place to exercise the mind, and slow down the approach of dementia.

Believe me, we've got a very good man in the personage of Mr Graham YOUNG and his friends. There's nowhere else, as free and easy, where one may express an opinion like OLO or The Forum. So we're very very lucky indeed.

o sung wu, I find myself agreeing with you.
I have found other forums, such as Quora, to be a disgusting and inconsistent rubbish.
Their moderators are either 3 year olds or they are drunk all the time.
Sometimes I see a serious smack of 'Jewism', and I mean to the point of ad nauseum.
They are annoying and the site should be closed down, with prejudice.
Reading the various comments both accepted and rejected, I find little difference.
They have the most stupid and repressive mantra or policy; 'Be Nice, Be Respectful'.
The language allowed on this forum, makes ME blush.
And yet they pull you up on some unrelated issues if someone decides they don't like it.
Worst of all do not denigrate Jews or anything Jewish.
Big No No.
Not that they have the guts to admit it.
It really should be removed or at least people should avoid them.

//If I go on the attack it is because I don't believe they are right.
So where's the problem?//

Yes, and when those commenters went on the attack it was because they don't believe Rand is right.

So where's the problem?

//Just because she is writing about a right wing view she must be wrong, according to these halfwits.//

There were a few along those lines, yes. Those were actually the ones that reminded me the most of you, because of the way you react to people expressing left wing views.

And there were a few (quite a lot, actually) criticising her as a dreadful philosopher and writer, which seems reasonable to me. Or are there some people we're just not supposed to criticise?

//I am not caring what she says, she is allowed to say what she believes, through research and studies.//

Oh. So you've not actually read her then?

//The responses are based on emotion with little or no research into her reasoning.//

How can you be sure of that? Maybe they have read her stuff... which is how they came to the conclusion that it was rubbish.

//They just don't like what she has written.//

Oh. So they have read her, and criticised her on the basis of her writings (on what other basis is their to criticise her) and your problem is.... sorry, what is your problem again?

//They are irrelevant.//

Yes of course, but so are you.

//The scum have no clue about anything other than to disagree with anyone who is not left.//

Now, who does that remind me of....

//I thought I was bad with some of my level of abuse on these forums, but WOW! These guys make me look absolutely angelical.//

Nah, those guys are amateurs compared to you ALTRAV.

//It is best summarized in her science fiction novel "Atlas Shrugged" and "Fountainhead" which was made into a movie. They are both available on the web if you look. I'd suggest reading Fountainhead first. Her works are fairly robust- it may change your view of the world.//

Well I suppose 'robust' is one way of putting it.... other descriptions that I've heard include 'dull', 'turgid', 'sophomoric', and 'execrable claptrap'.

But I think the best review of 'Atlas Shrugged' that I've read is this marvellous summation:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
- John Rogers

Quite.

So Toni, remind me.
Why are you here? and why do have nothing relevant to offer the discussions on OLO?
I have noticed you have a pattern.
It seems your biggest contribution to a topic is to reject, outright anyone's comments, just for the hell of it, or is it to try to look like you might actually have something to contribute worth reading.
Sorry that didn't go too well for ya.
Ah well, every forum needs someone who can tell or be a joke, it keeps us amused, and reminds us to GET BACK ON TOPIC!
I dis-agree with people because they are sheeple with no mind of their own, but merely follow some halfwits because of some social attraction.
Not because of 'reason'.
The left are the biggest in-effectual group in society.
They take things verbatim and not an ounce of common sense amongst them.
They are too scared to express a view contrary to their brethren, as it may cause a little discomfort and awkwardness, and we wouldn't want that.
Why argue your case when it's so much easier and you get to look 'cool' like the rest of the twats, by joining in with them and their pathetic mantra's.
All they are is annoying and do their stance NO good what-so-ever.
So Toni, let us all know when you've actually got something to contribute rather than being annoying.
There's enough lefty's already.
The last thing we need is another one.

It may be interesting to read an article from - "The
New Statesman," on why Ayn Rand is still relevant
today. Especially in the US.

The article describes - Ayn Rand as - "The spirit of the
age, the age of selfishness, and age of greed,
financial crime, and indifference to the poor, sick, and
disabled... she cared little for those crushed under the
wheels of capitalism and she considered economic failure
to be your own fault if it happened to you. She also
considered that to help another just for the sake of it
with no benefit to yourself was in her eyes - moral weakness.
She developed a whole philosophy. The philosophy of
Objectivism, in order to justify her own selfishness and
contempt for the needy."

"Top businessmen and politicians name her as an influence.
Objectivism is a very convenient philosophy if you are
someone who venerates your own needs over everyone else's."

"Rand is little known in Europe, but in the US more than
30 years after her death she still has a huge following.
To her - taxation is theft, and the welfare system should
be allowed to wither away (along presumably with the poor)."

"Hers is a world of low taxes, low business regulation,
welfare state rollback and government reduced only to
matters of policing and the military, while all else is
farmed out to giant corporations. This is a world Rand
would much approve of."

"If this picture looks familiar - it is because it's the
world that those on the political and extreme right have
been moving towards for the last 30 years. Where most work
harder for less and a tiny percentage of people at the
top of society own the majority of the wealth."

I think that any attempt to explain the world in simple
absolutist terms is bound to fail. And more importantly -
is bound to constrict an individual's intellectual and
personal growth.

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/10/why-ayn-rand-still-relevant-and-dangerous

cont'd ...

I actually enjoyed her novels and I feel that she has
some good points. However I found her philosophy
both unrealistic and extreme. (Rigid, judgemental,
emotionally stunted, socially alienated, deeply
pessimistic, and going nowhere).

We learn the meaning of
life not by acting out the lives of fictional
characters or swallowing the pre-digested conclusions of
another thinker, but rather by living our own lives,
making our own observations, having our own experiences,
making our own mistakes and coming to our own conclusions
in the fullness of time. While it can help to have a guide
in this journey - there are better guides to choose than
Ayn Rand.

Foxy: it is because it's the world that those on the political and extreme right have been moving towards for the last 30 years.

Where-as those that follow the Marxist/Socialist Leftist ideals where Big Government controls everything & dissention is dealt with by execution. The Left have been moving towards this Ideal for the last 100 years.

The results are Chalk & Cheese. Name a Marxist/Socialist/ Leftist Country where that style of Government has been a success. Other than Singapore.

Agreed some of Ann Rand's Ideals are extreme as well & I certainly would not want to live under a Government of her Ideals.

Let's forget the Politics & get back to the Gender Discussion.

Who is in favour of Gender neutral language? Show of hands. please.

Jayb, as long as we admit that words like 'fireman', policeman', 'chairman', and so on are NOUNS, and have NOTHING to do with GENDER, I am happy to leave things as they are.
It's incredible that these words have been around for so long and now some people with nothing better to do have decided, let's change words because 'they' feel incensed or God knows what they feel by the use of these words.
I'll tell you the way the 'real' world works.
If the MAJORITY of the people want certain words changed then we have a mandate.
If a few selfish, stupid, psychotics push an agenda, I'd say ignore them and have them institutionalised.
That being the case, No there is NO good or obvious reason to change anything.

Dear Jayb,

I am not advocating a Marxist/Socialist agenda.

What I was doing was -
merely trying to point out the sterile airless
terrain of Rand's philosophy - which I found
to be wildly emotional and having difficulty with
linear reasoning.

I deliberately chose the article from "The New Statesman,"
Because the mission of its award-winning writers and editors
is to analyse and explain the defining political, economic,
geopolitical and cultural events and ideas shaping and
changing the world today. It's a magazine that's read
across various platforms by opinion formers and decision
makers from all sectors - government, academia, foreign
policy establishments and think tanks, business and media
and the arts. I thought it may be of some value.

As for systems of government around the globe. I feel that
we're very fortunate in this country of ours - with what
we've got. It's not perfect - but we really can't complain.
It's certainly better than what the US currently has.

Foxy, you speak negatively about this person and her beliefs.
I don't completely agree with the little I have read, but have gained a much more detailed analysis of her and her philosophy since reading all the responses to and about her.
The overarching fact everyone ignores is that what she speaks is more truth than not.
The oversimplification of her message is evident in the majority of countries and people today.
For example, Aussies have a belief they truly uphold, and that is, 'I work to live, not live to work'.
Well this has a similar ring to it in other countries.
She is promoting the very thing I have said previously; giving a poor person a fish, he will only eat for that day.
Instead teach him how to fish, he will not go hungry again.
One of her messages is exactly that, 'get off your arse and do something'.
As for her many other messages, 'most' of them are a good thing.
I believe the tone of her message is for people to become motivated to take control of their own lives instead of sitting around doing nothing and living off others, charity or not.
How can you demonise that kind of advice?
Call me centre, right, don't care, it's not about me, it's about people taking responsibility for their own lives and future.
That's the real problem, not her for commenting on it and giving an opinion about it.
But as usual the looney left attack the person but not the message.
Even her detractors have to admit she is right, because if they did half of what she suggests, they would ALL be better off.
But no it's so much easier 'crackin open another tinny and turning up the footy', while some good and kind charitable person delivers a food basket to your home, for free.

cont'd ...

Dear Jayb.,

As for gender neutral language?

It doesn't really affect me. I had fun on this discussion.
Coming up with things to make people laugh - pointing
out the humour in some words. However - I tend to use
words appropriate to the situation. If someone wants to
be called a "Ms" instead of "Miss" or "Mrs" I'll happily
oblige them or use their first name if I know it. -I
take each situation as it comes. And deal with it
accordingly. I think most of us do that. It's not a big
deal to me. Our language changes all the time and words
that we don't use - often drop off after a while and are
replaced with new ones.

ALTRAV,

Ayn Rand still has a huge following, particularly
in the US so you're not alone in expressing your admiration.
Many top businessmen and politicians name her as an
influence which makes sense as they're people who venerate
their own needs over everyone else's.

Those of us who tend to take the side of the under dog and
have a keen sense of injustice - she's not our cup of tea.

And that's all right. Afterall - a philosophy, like any
theory is only a road map, and a road map can never be
more than a thumbnail sketch of the reality it represents,
a rough approximation with nearly all of the details, texture,
subleties, and ambigueties omitted.

Have a nice day.

Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 13 August 2018 10:17:11 PM

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
- John Rogers

Answer- I think Toni Lavis made your point for you Altrav. I guess Toni Lavis must be a doctor and he needs a hug.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rogers_(writer)

CM, sorry didn't get very far with your link.
On the matter of Toni L.
I am not attune to sarcasm, so I was not quite sure what he meant, because I also don't have much to do with children or their paraphernalia.
So it is that I do not know what an 'Orc' is.
And so it followed that his point was wasted on me and as good as if he had said nothing at all.
Whatever was the intent of his comment, it failed miserably, as I did not understand it, thinking, it must be some new-age speak, in which case it wasn't intended for me anyway.
It would be nice if he would stick to topic instead of picking 'fights' with all and sunder.

I have a confession. I have never read anything by Ayn Rand, or George Orwell's 1984. They're Novels, Story's. As my wife says when I watching a Warrie on TV & I make comments about the action, "It's only a Movie."

Why do people make such a big deal out of these things. It's only a story.

Philosophy is Navel Gazing by someone who thinks they're important. Their opinion an things are no more or les valid than yours or mine.