Dear David F.,

I enjoyed your - "not cagy anything, vulgar orange oaf,
not a vulgar boatman, and his own unintelligent agency."

I think that we could add "The Indecider" and
"der Trumpenfuhrer" to the list.

And Putin is certainly "The Puppet Master!"

SteeleRedux,

Yes, I get that you want to excuse the Bolsheviks for their brutality. But nowhere was I saying that they execution of the Tsar was unexpected, a-historic or particularly brutal. What I was saying was that the execution of the kids and the family's employees was brutal and indicative of the disasters Lenin was about to unless on the Russian peoples. I've now explained that several times but I guess the nuance goes over your head.

"Your link is tenuous at best."

I didn't post a link. I noted in a previous thread that your comprehension skills are suspect. Unfortunately they'd need to improve by orders of magnitude to be considered tenuous.

Toni,

Yes the term 'socialist' is a little ambiguous these days. At the time, Lenin would and did describe himself as socialist. What does the second 'S'in 'USSR' stand for? Equally Hitler and Mussolini called themselves socialist. I was using the term in its traditional sense.

The term has been watered down these days to mean something it didn't mean back in the day. Given the disasters that socialist Russia became, western welfare states couldn't share the word with it, so Russia became communist and the welfare states appropriated a watered down version of the term 'socialist'.

" resulting in the creation of NHS"

Well we could probably have a whole new 100 page thread on how the NHS is a perfect example of why socialism doesn't and cannot work. It would definitely attract all the I-wish-the-government-would-make-more-decisions-for-me posters.

mhaze, your claim that socialism doesn't work, is only partly true. Western democracies operate a mix of socialism and capitalism. A totally capitalistic society with its excesses would disadvantage far too many to be sustainable in the long term. Whilst pure socialism in the form of communism is unworkable in a complex modern society. What is workable despite numerous problems is our liberal democratic system, which provides a degree of freedom for all, and at the same time protecting the vulnerable from exploitation, and supporting the socially disadvantaged.
The above is what I support, what about you?

My understanding is that the best countries to live in are the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands. They have a high degree of political freedom and economic security. They have a low degree of corruption and religious belief. They do not have a big gap between rich and poor. They have combined the caring nature of socialism without the compulsion which is often associated with socialism. When I was working in the Netherlands I got sick, and the manager of the hotel I was staying at called a doctor. He treated me, and I recovered. We talked, and he told me he had an American girlfriend who wanted him to come to the USA where a doctor could make much more money than he was making. He told me he felt good about Dutch society and his role in it. I hope his girlfriend joined him.

//Equally Hitler and Mussolini called themselves socialist.//

Umm, no, Mussolini called himself a Fascist.

Hitler called himself a National Socialist, but then devoted a great deal of effort to rounding up Socialists and sending them to concentration camps. A friend of Socialism in name only.

//Well we could probably have a whole new 100 page thread on how the NHS is a perfect example of why socialism doesn't and cannot work.//

Yes, what a terrible system. Socialised healthcare flies in the face of social darwinism by artificially prolonging the life of poor people who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford healthcare. What an awful, wicked thing to do.

You're a bit of prick, aren't you mhaze?

//I-wish-the-government-would-make-more-decisions-for-me//

Yes, what it a terrible thing it is for the government to take important decisions like 'Will I go to see the doctor about this lump on my neck, or will I eat this week? Well, the lump on my neck could be benign and I do like food, I think I'll eat.' Shame if the lump is malignant...

You know what? I'm OK with governments taking decisions like that out of people's hands. And it's not like anybody has to use socialised medicine if they don't want to. Patients being able to make their own decisions about their treatment is still a cornerstone of our medical system, hence all the consent forms that have to be signed before any treatment can be given. You're still allowed to seek second opinions, refuse treatment, solicit the services of quacks, go private, whatever. Nobody is stopping you. It would be a breach of medical ethics, and possibly illegal.