While we tend to think in terms of Australia we do know these two groups are a worldwide issue? any one care to think that far ahead? what will refugees
look like then? it is my view between then and now the flow of refugees world
wide will increase greatly,and too that the western world will by then see this as a problem and have laws in place to stop entry of most if not all,however by then will the world be better or worse in relation to this issue,will we live together trouble free? or will the gap widen between us?

You don't have to go 50 years, Italy has done an Australian move no boats.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6776034/italy-bans-migrants-on-trawler/

ITALY BANS BOAT The Italian government has warned 450 desperate migrants on a trawler they are not allowed to enter the country

The two-decked trawler with the 450 migrants on board was yesterday in Maltese waters but radar showed it was heading north towards Italy

Interior minister Matteo Salvini issued the warning as the migrant crisis threatening Italy and the southern Med continued to grow.

It comes just a month after he turned away a charity ship carrying more than six hundred people after saying the country just couldn’t cope. The two decked trawler with the 450 migrants onboard was yesterday in Maltese waters but radar showed it was tracking north towards Italy.

Last night firebrand Mr Salvini, of the anti-immigration Northern League, warned: "As promised I will not bend. A boat with 450 illegal immigrants on board is from this morning in Maltese waters and they undertook the rescue operation.

“For several hours nothing happened and now, surprise, surprise the ship is heading towards Italy.Malta, people traffickers and all the do gooders of Italy and the rest of the world need to know this boat will not dock in an Italian port and should not try. We have already said this and I hope I am making myself clear.”

Last month the Aquarius a humanitarian rescue ship was ordered not to dock in Italy and eventually arrived in Spain. Earlier this week an Italian coastguard vessel rescued 67 migrants amid claims they had made death threats to the captain of the boat taking them from Libya to Europe.

If the boat is accepted by Spain again wonder how long before the Spanish say enough is enough.

Even Merkel is in trouble and just holding on to power.

Dear Belly,

This is a tough one.

Refugees and migrants are both running from a hopeless
future. From situations of persecution be it either
war or economic famine. And who wouldn't want better
conditions for themselves and their family?

But unless something is done - it will not get any
better in the future.

We have a couple of choices - because it is a
global problem - countries can close the fences so to
speak, put up walls and put in place stricter laws or
they can try to actively improve conditions and
opportunities in the homelands of these people. Working
with local leaders so that there is less motivation to
seek better possibilities in other lands. We can't cut our
foreign aid drastically - because it ends up costing us
even more once these people arrive on our shores.

Also, let us not forget that many of the current problems
that exist today - we were a part of causing those problems
by supporting the US and interfering in the internal
affairs of various countries from which the refugees are now
fleeing. For example, Syria - rebels rose up against Syrian
government the West stepped in to assist. The Russians stepped
in to help the government and now we have millions of refugees.
Before that we had Iraq.

Another 50 from Belly. The biggest number he can imagine?

Philip S has said all that needs to be said. People have had a gutfull of barbarians entering their countries illegally; and an even bigger gutfull of the politicians who have been facilitating the invasions. Australia has shown the rest of the world that they do not have to tolerate uninvited thugs, and that they can, and should, decide who enters their countries and the way they will enter.

Dear Belly,

I forgot to add that immigration's contribution to population
growth is very likely going to increase during the next 30
to 50 years at least because of the ageing of Australia's
population with deaths catching up to births.

Foxy I put this thread forward to tell what I see happening, and included Migrants because it is my view that may be the only way to gain entry in to the future western world.First it is my view refugee flows will get massively more than they currently are, and that will, like it or not, bring border fences down on them,,,long before the 50 years,migration is lumped by some, too many, in with concerns about refugees, look at the Aussie/Croatians cheering for their fathers and mothers country in the world cup, it to me at least proves integration worked, never convince me multiculturalism, in the form it now is, is not,,, harming every oneinvolved.
In say 20 years SOME hat tipping to western values will take place in today's Migrants and refugees via their children, who knows? acceptance may be the fashion in 50 years Some times to solve a problem both sides, yes both, must give ground and take the best result on offer not total victory

I am bound to comment on those who tell us aid is theft from us, the reverse is true AID may well be, if used properly, the best defense against future refugee flows feed and house them in their own country teach them the things they need to live a good life with well directed aid at every step.

Haven’t we been throwing aid at these countries for decades, how come this never seems to lead to any improvement in the lives of the people in these countries.

Reducing the number of people in some countries is the only solution.

Thailand and Iran (of all places) have shown that this can be done by government sponsored birth control. They lowered the number of babies born for each woman from about 6 to less than 2. Iran has since done an about face with the policy as they now wish to increase numbers, but they showed it can be done. Google family planning in either country.

I think this is what we and the UN should be concentrating on. Especially for those countries that experience famine. The RC church needs to support birth control.

Migration is not the answer and stronger borders will go up.

Aid to countries in OUR REGION makes sense, particularly with the rising aggression of China in our vicinity. However, how much goes out of our region?

The totally untrustworthy Foreign Minister claims that 90% of our foreign aid goes to the ‘Indo Pacific’. Apart from Australia there are 13 independent states officially in this region, plus smaller island countries. NONE OF THESE are Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Maldives, the African East Coast, Comoros, Kenya, Madagascar, Mauritius, Mozambique, Seychelles, Somalia, Tanzania and South Africa, ALL OF WHICH have their snouts in our aid trough.

This is not an answer to your question, Cherful (the answer to that is that the despots mis-ruling the beneficiaries of our largesse are crooks who enrich themselves with aid money and do nothing for their people); but it shows that our politicians are lying about where the aid money goes, as they lie about most things these days. We have to ask ourselves what ‘extras’ our politicians are getting for being so generous with our money. It is also much more important than rabbiting on about illegal immigrants posing as refugees, and whether or not they will be getting away with it 50 years from now.

If Refugee status doesn't change in 50 years, then I suspect there will be a division of people within most countries that refugees are running to. One division will be citizens, and the other division will be a kind of second class population. Hopefully the same countries that people are fleeing from as refugees won't have the same issues they have today, and this potential future is avoided. Right know most countries are facing the issue in terms "what do we do with these people,". In 50 years if the problems still exist, there will be answers on what to do with them. And political groups fighting for their answer to be the one that is in place while that political party is in power.

For instance in the US, the issue of mass illegal immigration has been an issue for many many years. Coming from Mexico and countries south of Mexico. Industries have taken the population infeed while ignoring they are illegal immigrants, with the pay off of cheap labor. Even with costumes agents checking for illegal immigrants, the flow of cheep labor is high enough that they are easily replaceable, or that the same indivuals will return in a few weeks or a few months after being deported. Cities most affected by the migrant movements are those closest to the borders that they cross over. Making some of those cities politically charged as safe havens and others as trying to find the means, resources, and manpower to block the borders. Cities that aren't close to the borders will still have their say, and muddy the discussion in the domestic politics of "what do we do with these people."

(Continued)

(Continued)

In fifty years if refugee issues are still as strong as they are today, then the crime and the cultural fighting will be normalized as part of society. Police will have their own issues of discrimination and brutality within their ranks, while the class of people now in question as refugees will fight their own fight of being counted as citizens and not second class rejects. If this is going on in 50 years this issue will be ongoing and an unending debate.

If it's possible, fight that this doesn't come to be the case in 50 years. People don't usually want to leave their homes and their culture and customs to be strangers in a forgiven land. If the issues they are running from can be identified, then they can be attempted to be solved. Not just throwing money at it in hopes that the money isn't being placed in corrupted hands, but active plans and orginizations that are attempting a solution to make their homelands live-able again.

I never thought this thread would be easy, and never thought my wishes should rule my comments, see truth is all our views wants wishes are out of our hands, surely some of us think some power other than the ones we see has slipped Multiculturalism in? what was evil about integration? why did Germany and half of Europe open their borders? back on track even if the UN or who ever is in control continue to try to bring about one world, long before 50 years comes voters from all sides will end open door policies, no party in the west will be elected that does not agree, AID, in all things change is possible, in this case a must,this government gave I believe 50 million dollars to CAMBODIA! to resettle TWO refugees!aid can be kept out of the hands of military criminals and truly decadent governments, if not? do not grant it

I feel for those we keep in concentration camps, that is what we are doing, but in truth know Labor or Liberal will never rule this country if they are bought here Tony Abbott has said he wishes he had a better look at the Malaysian solution, it was *not*about long term increase in refugee/migrant in take, it *was*about stopping the boats and refugee flows in all our near north countries too, we will see it reborn, ending the huge costs of detention and its cruelty, and much of the western world will be using it long before the 50 years is up, migrants are needed, they drive growth, and that path will always be open, we have no choice those who control us have made up their minds, we are one day to become one world

It takes a real ignoramus to describe Australian detention centres as “concentration camps”, and Belly certainly fits the description. I recall something about him being “ driven off” OLO by an ‘evil Right Wing’ poster at some stage. Where is that poster? He is really needed again. Nobody should object to differences of opinion when they are expressed with some thought and at least basic skills in English expression - so what they say makes sense even if you disagree with it; but this bloke is well outside loop. Front bar material. Embarrassing. Unpatriotic - the only thing he shares with his more articulate mates.

Dear Belly,

Thank You for bringing up this topic for discussion.
I know that you're having this debate for a reason -
you're looking for answers to try to solve a future
problem. And I'm impressed at how you're staying
focused on the problem. Because its very easy to be
provoked and to respond to personal attacks (which are
never relevant). Most of the contributors thus far have
come up with some very valid points.

However one hasn't - and that one is best ignored.

It's hard to continue a conversation with anyone
when all they try to do is put you down instead of
addressing the issues at hand.

I remember a time when trolls were fictious monsters from
fairy tales - not "A-holes" on the internet looking for
attention. And just to be clear -
I'm obviously talking about ttbn here.

Well done Belly. Keep up the good work.

Foxy thanks, GY forgive me for my few rebuttals of what clearly is a troll, this thread is needed, and even some in my party will condemn me even call for me to be thrown out of it, because I put both my views and honest thoughts here, war and acts of filthy terrorists will not only bring more hate in this period, it will bring massively more refugees,and ,,, as a positive, some parts of the Muslim world to stand against the things we find hard to take from some Muslims,we must confront the concentration camps, and aid used not by other than those who gave it, can improve life in the countries they flee from,we too must stop wars in those countries that exists because the west uses them as a chess board China and Russia to,I think we would not recognise this world in 50 years PS I am from my parties ruling faction the right and that faction knows voters concerns

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

BTW: I looked up the meaning of "concentration camp."
It's described as a guarded compound in which the
detention of aliens, that is -
ethnic minorities, political opponents, refugees,
et cetera, are deliberately confined.

So you were spot on in your referral.

However lets not get distracted from the subject -
and lets stay focused. Trying to distract and go
off-topic is another tactic used by trolls.

If you want to see what this migration & refugee policy will bring in 50 or 150 or 250 years, just look at Lebanon, or Croatia's recent past. Certain people, usually driven by religion just don't integrate, & will never live happily together. Bring them here or to Europe, & you are guaranteeing a new Lebanon here & in Europe.

As for aid, it has been shown for anyone who bothers to look through open eyes, that it is a total waste, or infact causes more trouble than it ever saves, even when some of it gets past the local government.

Feed a people in an already overpopulated failing country or area, & all you do is enable them to survive & breed. They continue increasing their population, thus requiring more aid.

Continue this & not only do you ensure more starvation in the places you help, when your capacity to do so diminishes & their population increases, but you will ultimately going to bring starvation to your own country, along with increasing refugee flows.

Yes the only solution bloody cruel to these people now, but is worse for more in their next generation if we continue giving aid to keep people breeding.

I am here reminded of the statement to my son, by an official in Indonesia after the tsunami, when his ship was there to help. "You go home, we don't want you". "Send money". We can all imagine where that money would go, just like the rest of our aid.

Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 15 July 2018 3:16:13 PM

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Foxy I am beginning to worry about you. Some of your posts don't make any sense, except as radical rants.

No one is in a concentration camp if they can at any time request & be granted all expenses paid transportation to their place of origan. Obviously criminals may not be interested in such transport, but all these country shoppers have an easy way out, paid for by us.

Dear Belly,

The government has confirmed that as part of their
Refugee and Humanitarian Program - as of March
2018-2019 the program will increase its intake
of people to 18,750. Which indicates that this
will probably continue to grow. Therefore long-
term global solutions such as aid, population
control, education are possibly things that need to
be looked at on the global level. If we want a
comfortable living in this country, we can't just
ignore the poor in other countries - or we'll be
in trouble.

Hasbeen,

'Rant' is good word to describe Foxy's extreme Left preaching.

Foxy Quote "If we want a comfortable living in this country, we can't just ignore the poor in other countries"

I suppose you could also say under your statement that could be translated to.
If we want the poor in other countries to have a more comfortable living, we must accept that there will be more poor in this country who will have an uncomfortable living.

OR

Lets give people in other countries a home at the expense of our own people being homeless.

There are lots of ways of putting it but they all mean the same, turn a blind eye to the suffering of your own people.

Well I had hoped reality not our private opinion would be seen, and will list what I see as realities in the coming period,no western government can continue to take mass migration/refugees and be elected, our detention centers do, mentally torture those in detention we do so purely to stop others coming and it is concentration camps we place them in,those telling them to hold out *the government/opposition will let you in* are too torturing detainees FOR POLITICAL GAIN, second and third generation migrants already in the west will assimilate, not all but most, those that do not harm their group, nothing like I would call for but my view a fact, we the west, will always need and take refugees and migrants, but transferring hunger/poverty and all the problems from the third world to the west is not an answer

Dear Hassie,

I don't think that I've said anything radical.
Just merely stating things as I see them.
We do have the means to ensure that we have
not only a country but a world within which
we can all have a reasonable life (if there aren't
too many of us). We cannot ignore the poverty in
this world. Therefore we have to put aside our narrow
self-interests and try to work together as friends
with our neighbours, if there is to be a world for those
humans and animals who follow us.

No Western country, including Australia, has any obligation to bail out dysfunctional citizens from, or remaining in, dysfunctional countries. It wasn't luck that got us where we are. We are different from these dysfunctional societies because of our work ethic, Judeo-Christian values and traditions, the rule of law and respect for private property. The 'rest' could have imitated the West anytime over the last 200 or 300 hundred years. The British colonisation of countries that made up the Empire had more chance than those not in the Empire. But, after the Empire ceased to be, most of those too relapsed into tribal politics and ways of doing things. Apart from India, they are all on the bones of their arses along with the rest of the non-West. Stiff cheese. It's their own fault, not ours.

Actually, many of those countries, especially the
war-torn ones are in trouble because of our involvement
in their affairs - supporting our allies like the US in
Iraq and elsewhere for example.

However one of the positive things going our way is that
we have broken ground with world leaders who today are
taking notice of a vast army of experts who are willing
and able to guide us through the coming difficult years.
A better world is possible. It will take effort. It will
be difficult. But it will be worth it.

Foxy What drug are you on with this statement "taking notice of a vast army of experts who are willing and able to guide us through the coming difficult years."

Name one just one of these so called experts and exactly where are they?

The problems have been around for years, where have your experts been, how did they only supposedly work out how to fix the problem now?

Foxy said- "We do have the means to ensure that we have
not only a country but a world within which
we can all have a reasonable life (if there aren't
too many of us). We cannot ignore the poverty in
this world. Therefore we have to put aside our narrow
self-interests and try to work together as friends
with our neighbours, if there is to be a world for those
humans and animals who follow us."

Answer- The western world can't fix all the problems of the world. Enlightened self interest rather than narrow self interest. There are too many people in many of these countries- the best way to reduce the problems is for them to reduce their populations. Australia has done its fair share- we made a mistake trying to help and have hurt ourselves- we have tried helping militarily through international efforts and through massive immigration- now we will have to fix the problems we've created- the UN including ICCPR, refugees, etc is empirically invalid. Sometimes the only way to ensure peace is for both sides to stay on their own side of the fence- keep your hands to yourselves.

The modern Australia:
Just wondering if anyone can can help me out here;
Upon being born, I'm supposed to feel guilty for being a male;
But I'm also supposed to feel guilty for being white.
Which takes precedence?

Also apparently I'm a rapist, and a moron and a pig and a mysogynist and a bigot.
And I'm a racist because I oppose Australia becoming a Muslim enclave
I'm intolerant and a xenophobe, because I don't like schools teaching oral and anal to 4th graders;
I'm a right wing conspiracy theorist and a danger to society because I question the safety of vaccines and don't think highly of GMO and think the corpoate media is mostly narrative and half truths (If you're lucky)
I'm a vicious anti-Semite because I criticise Israeli treatment of others and their hypocrisy.

And finally being Australian now has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with actually being born here.
https://amp.smh.com.au/national/australian-resident-number-25-million-due-next-month-20180709-p4zqb5.html
- And I could a all fairness find links for all the other dumb stuff I mentioned too.

OMG our society is so friggin stupid.

Armchair Critic- Thanks for your comments. I find it's useful to research the history of the terms you recited. Usually they are used as political tools and less than objective.

In my perfect world, not the one I think we will get, the Malaysian solution would be in place, not just here but every country, aid would be increased and used not by the failed despots in some countries but a trustworthy UN , wars, big wish here, UN with real teeth would stop such as the African nations mass murdering wars,build a home worth living in, migration would exist and be valued enough to see some degree of integration by those who come to the west,if we spent as much on aid as we spend on defense we would not have poverty.in all things getting everything you ask for is not as likely as finding a middle way

When even the frightened, gullible Europeans are waking up to how stupid they have been, condoning the entry of invading Muslims, suggesting that the same thing will be happening in 50 years is utter bulldust.

The democrats and the left are completely imploding.
The #walkaway movement is having an marked effect.
It's priceless watching these people snap out of it and take a long awaited reality check.

http://youtu.be/_cJJzsiTClg

Liberals become conservative but conservatives never ever become liberals.

Did I wake up on a different planet?

I can't believe all these people are actually starting to come around.
I must admit I'd written them all off.

http://youtu.be/iJFDs8KlY2E
http://youtu.be/wnnBEr-7-Rk

Has sanity finally prevailed?

In today's world we can no longer afford to live in
a vacuum and ignore what is going on in the rest of
the world. Trade, travel, and telecommunications
have made the nations of the modern world more
interdependent than ever before and today more than
ever before - we need to
desperately seek solutions to climate change, water
scarcity, pollution, over population,
and Third World poverty.

We need economists, ecologists,
scientists, great thinkers, and activists,
to help us put our sustainability on the cultural and
political map and come up with the answers for our
survival.

Foxy,

I don't buy that Aus has had any responsibility for creating the flood of refugees or economic migrants, in fact, quite the contrary. Without the demolition of ISIS, Syria and Iraq would be much worse off.

The lax border controls in Europe have led to a swarm of economic migrants (only about 20% are fleeing conflict or persecution) most of whom are unskilled and ill-prepared to contribute to the EU economy.

The result is that in every EU country, the attitude towards migrants is hardening, with now boats being turned back from Italy, other EU countries refusing to take them, and Merkel's government on a knife edge following a resurgence of the far right parties.

The Coalition turnback policy has essentially resolved the problem with economic migrants, and the offshore processing (put in place by Labor) is helping to resolve the problems left by labor's stuff up.

If foreign aid concentrated on education for women, instruction in birth control and population planning and adequate supply of contraceptives along with instructions in their use and the arms trade was controlled the resulting unrest would be lessened as would be the surplus population.

David F thinks that Muslims would accept education for women and birth control on our dollar. How quaint. It is gobsmacking to hear that people are still so ignorant of Islam.

Foxy my heart is with you but this is about what will happen in my view and this post is about my view,multiculturalism is a fraud, tell the Greeks Italians Maltese and all the post war migrants we, in any way, stop them having two cultures,however, few if it is, why the Arabic dress in our streets? why have THEY made no effort to assimilate? the few do great disservice to the majority of Muslims,50 years? before ten have passed we will see borders closed and try to convince ourselves it is for reasons other than SOME in a faith, that demands we bend to fit in with them
Just think, if we did not see the Burka on our streets, if we did not see Arabic clothing, BUT think too off my fate if I walked in Islamic lands in stubbys and thongs? be fair to them but be honest two side can act to kill this racism I am as said before a non believer and demand no faith in any way control any part of my life

Dear Belly,

Things will change with time. They always have.
Have a look at Catholic priests and nuns today -
now they dress as civilians and just wear a
badge to identify them. When settlers arrived
from England they were dressed in the 18th and
19th century garbs - but with time fashion
changed. Also remember the days when men had to
wear ties and suits for work? Women wore hats
and gloves when they went to the city. So what
do you expect from recent arrivals from Arabic
countries. Even Indians wear "pyjamas" in our
neighbourhood. However I bet their kids will
dress differently in time. And will adapt to
our way of life - as people have always done.

ttbn,

This is to help with your "education."

http://en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Muslim_women_political_leaders

cont'd ...

It seems that its a struggle to "educate"
Lets try again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_women_political_leaders

These figures are crazy and something needs to be done to force people to take jobs they are capable of doing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5957141/Number-Australians-long-term-welfare-payments-soars-costing-taxpayers-hundreds-millions.html

Number of Australians on long-term welfare soars by 121,000 people in five years – and it's costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars

765,424 Australians have been on welfare payments for longer than five years
More than half the people receiving long-term payouts are in their 20s or 30s
Changes to the Disability Pension eligibility is forcing people onto the dole
New legislation will crack down on those taking advantage of the system

There were 644,028 Australians on long-term welfare payments five years ago.

These payments include Newstart, Youth Allowance and the Disability Support Pension, which can pay an individual as much as $907.60 every fortnight.

More than half of all welfare recipients who have received continuous cash handouts for the past decade started when they were aged in their 20s and 30s.

Let us not mix welfare with the support benefit for unemployment,yes SOME disability pensions can be questioned, but if the general view refugees are remaining enmass on welfare is true then it is us who are letting the team down for allowing it, Foxy yes true already as it always is, many of those born here are hard to pick from us, that seems natural hard however to except those who openly tell us they have no intention of any integration, time and increasing western concerns will change most, not all of them we can, in this 50 year period expect war, maybe more than the past 50 years to have effects too

Europe needs immigrants because of low birth rate and ageing population. There will never be an end to immigration.

Whilst I agree that you have an immigration problem in this country, I don't think that this is your main problem. Your main problem is the disintegration of the family unit and the loveless binge drinking environment that your children are growing up in! NEVER in my life have I seen another country where people so seldom give their children a hug and a kiss like in this country and NEVER in my life have I seen another country where there are so many children from different fathers growing up in single parent households! Before you tackle the immigration problem (at least the immigrants LOVE their kids) you should first look at yourselves!

European society must be grateful to highly skilled immigrants. They never spent a single penny on their education but they start paying income tax as soon as they start work. In my opinion, they should be exempted from paying income tax for five years because they are not allowed to apply for any benefit for five years. Politicians and the media expend inordinate amounts of energy debating migration, often using nativist, populist and xenophobic rhetoric. This is despite the fact that, as of 2017, only three out of every 100 people – a mere 3.4% of the world’s population – have left their home nations to migrate to a new country. They have no choice but to welcome immigrants because without them their society and economy would bleed to death.

Stop treating foreigners like garbage and they will stop ruining your precious country. Why did you let them in in the first place if you didn't want them here? They left everything in their countries because of your promises. Are you so anxious to please that you can't say "no"? I would love to see you go to a foreign land where you don't have any friends, you don't even know anyone and you don't speak the language, and start from scratch.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.u

Isn't this character based in the UK? I don't think he as 'seen' anything happening in Australia.

yep Europe led the way in murdering their unborn and are now paying the price.

Hey Iktifar,
You worry about your own beheaders;
And we'll worry about our binge drinkers.
Australia likes binge drinking more than we like Islam, so know your place.

iftikar do you under stand migrants and refugees can come from other than Islamic countries?,I suspect having seen much of you that you may be part of the few/problem not the answer,around 30 percent of people polled in the last census said they had no faith, a third of us, just maybe a time will come when that third get rights, and if so it will be my request that no faith ever have any right that over rides my freedom to be me,my proposed 50 years will, what ever we both think, see massive changes, in part powered by people opposed to such as you who while highlighting our problems,refuse to see those in your small section of the Muslim community

If you want to know the future, then learn about the past.
http://youtu.be/364cxeR5EAg

As an afterthought,
You might also want to watch:
Hillary's America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party
http://imdb.com/title/tt5646136/

And also look into Obama and Frank Marshall Davis
http://youtu.be/cHonnwjxDZU

Watch all 3 videos and you may become wiser.

Senator Dean Smith (Liberal) has asked the Prime Minister for discussions on our MASS immigration, which the PM recently refused to review. What we need now is more members of the government to start voicing the concerns of the electorate to the pig-headed PM and his yes-man cabinet. We are almost at the 25 million mark that was not supposed to be reached for many years to come.

The PM has said that he would consider discussions with senator Smith, but we all know that nothing will happen except for the senator being bullied out of his position on the matter.

The Australian Conservatives want immigration to be halved (a total ban would be better) and some Liberals are starting to look over their shoulders as the next election approaches.

The AC will never form a government, but they can do good things in the senate. We will be stuck with the Lib/Lab dictatorship into the foreseeable future, so the only hope of dudding the dictators is an AC vote in the senate at the next election. No matter what we think of the senate, neither major party will ever abolish it. We must try to improve the upper house and use it to deal with incompetence and self-interest in the lower house.

Foxy said (Monday, 16 July 2018 11:14:27 AM)- "In today's world we can no longer afford to live in a vacuum and ignore what is going on in the rest of the world. Trade, travel, and telecommunications have made the nations of the modern world more interdependent than ever before and today more than ever before - we need to desperately seek solutions to climate change, water scarcity, pollution, over population, and Third World poverty. We need economists, ecologists, scientists, great thinkers, and activists, to help us put our sustainability on the cultural and political map and come up with the answers for our survival."

Answer- Overall good post Foxy. What you've got here is a "baseline". From here it's possible to start looking at options/ perspectives for solution. It's a good start. I wouldn't only be considering an expert solution- but not bad. Kudos.

ttbn- Thanks for your post.

Our democracy is robust enough to withstand overt unhelpful
speech being spouted by some in their attempt to spread
misinformation and fear. People who see multiculturalism
and immigrants as "strangers" culturally different from
everybody else. People we should not allow into this
country. Despite the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.
We don't want any more?

In the meantime our population is ageing and needs someone
not only to support it but provide services in looking after
it. No wonder the Prime Minister has a lot to deal with.
That, and the ambitious and ruthless men within his own party.

Canem Malum,

Kudos to you as well, for continuing with well reasoned,
intelligent, and civil discussions. A great addition
to this forum.

//so the only hope of dudding the dictators is an AC vote in the senate at the next election.//

No it's not. There are plenty of other minor parties to choose from.

Voting for Cory's Tories isn't going to achieve much of practical value... they'll always vote with the Coalition, because the alternative would be voting with Labour and because they're Tories they'll never ever do that as it would be a betrayal of their Tory principles. For all the actual difference it would make to Senate votes, you might as well just vote Coalition in the Senate.

The advantage of voting for the Coalition in the Senate over Cory's Tories is that if we can keep the latter out of the Senate the media will stop paying attention to Bernardi Gras, to the great relief of most of us.

We too can not afford to overlook the very real pain one word multiculturalism has bought by replacing integration, show me the 1945 till 1960 migrants who do not both have their own culture and in part ours, tell me how the slums of France are other than ghettos? tell me why WASP should change to fit in with others but those others need not? tell me, and the majority in any western country we should not have opinions that question the need for many cultures in one country

Iftikhar,

I don't think that there is any problem with orderly skilled migration and believe that many of the problems occurring in the west are due to the unjustifiably entitled attitude that many economic refugees express. I don't believe that any country has made promises to immigrants and only Germany has ever come anywhere near extending an invitation to refugees.

The fuzzy logic that some have expressed that fighting climate change, world poverty etc will make any difference to the illegal migrant flow is ludicrous, as the issues are so large and there are so few that are trying, that it is farting against thunder.

Foreign aid makes the donor countries feel better but other than a handful of people the vast majority of the money finds its way into the hands of the corrupt local leaders, or to the fat cats running the charities.

The Paris agreement is also a joke as China has made bugger all effort, and countries like Germany have rising emissions due to the idiot demands that nuclear power stations are closed, with the prize for emission reductions going to the USA who has withdrawn and France with its nuclear power stations.

Foxy said- "(1) Our democracy is robust enough to withstand overt unhelpful speech being spouted by some in their attempt to spread
misinformation and fear."

Answer(1)- This view appears unproven and risky.
____

Foxy said- "(2) People who see multiculturalism and immigrants as "strangers" culturally different from everybody else. People we should not allow into this
country."

Answer(2)- Multiculturalism in the end will destroy culture- it's a form of genocide and is a very ethnocentric political structure because its intent is to destroy cultures and create a world multiculture (see COMINT). Another solution is to have borders between cultures. I don't blame certain groups for using this genocide strategy to change the power structure in their favour- it's one of the tools in the kit- blunt but effective. One of the most important lessons in politics- everyone does things that are in their own self interest and usually at the expense of everyone else. Wiser people understand that getting what you want for long term stability requires a more sophisticated and innovative approach of rewarding good behavior. It's interesting how the "marginalised segments" of societies are historically quite "happy to marginalise others" when they have the power. It's always about power- who's got it- who wants it- but what about stability- what are the principles?

____

Foxy said (3)- "Despite the fact that we are a nation of immigrants.
We don't want any more?"

Answer(3)- Immigration has always been contentious- there has been recent massive increases in immigration- a lot of the immigration has been from countries of our ancestors the British and Irish cultures. There are those that say we are a nation of immigrants including well known Australian creative personalities (this shows that probably "We can't trust our culture to artists")-

overall - Australia IS NOT a nation of immigrants

"Australia is a nation of British and Irish" (Br-Irish/ I-tish)

Its been said in order to control a company all that is required is 17.5 % of the shares. The same could also be true of Australia.

Oftimes it appears that immigration is prompted by influenced by factors of over population and mismanagement in the departing country- factors that often cannot be solved from afar. An army of hundreds of thousands of soldiers can still function in hostile environments because of management. There has been talk of banks that are too big to fail- countries are the similar- and just like banks sometimes we just need to let them fail. It's painful even to watch but everyone, every country has their own free will. Probably the whole of Africa has failed- it is probably too big for the world to help them- in many ways India is just avoiding failure- China has managed some of its internal issues but is now challenging externally for dominance.

____

Foxy said (4)- "In the meantime our population is ageing and needs someone not only to support it but provide services in looking after it. No wonder the Prime Minister has a lot to deal with. That, and the ambitious and ruthless men within his own party."

Answer(4)- When I look into my circle of interaction I know of many aging people that would love to get a job that can't because of employer preferences. Employers I'm sure love to create division within society because it gives them power. "We don't have an aging population problem- we have a Corporate Australia problem".

Do we include the recently released news we will have 25 million of us, not long ago planed to take place over fourty years,, now next month?this country maybe more than most can not hold huge numbers more than that, what will our population be in 50 years what effect will that have on refugees and migrants then

Pauline Hanson is a good example of a spreader of misinformation
and fear. Former Prime Minister John Howard stated that her
speech was - inaccurate, dishonest, verging on the deranged in
places. That she was appealing to the irresponsible racist
sentiment in the Australian community.

As for Multiculturalism? Multiculturalism will not destroy culture.
Multiculturalism strengthens cultures. It creates more variety
and encourages pluralism.

Of course in our history books you get "The First Fleet arrived.
It brought 1000 English convicts." It didn't. It brought 1000
convicts but probably they came from a dozen different
countries. English jails were no respecters of nationality.
The first Italian arrived on January 26, 1788 - Giuseppe Tuso.

There were people from South Africa, Ceylon, from India, from
Spain, Portugal, Hungary. Outside Australia's indigenous people
we are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants - some
earlier than others - but all with an experience of immigration
during the foundation of modern Australia. Our immigration
experience is a broad one. Originally it was Anglo-Celtic but
it changed and now in more recent times it has grown considerably
in numbers from a wide variety of countries. And all these
immigrant communities have made successful contributions to
Australian life and will continue to do so.

We are a nation of immigrants. In some schools 90% of the
students speak a language other than English as their first
language.

When considering cutting immigration - we need to take into
account our ageing population because it faces a number of risks
to living standards including health and aged care costs and
a smaller share of working-age people to produce goods, services
and wealth. Perhaps the most alarming is the threat of a shrinking
population and the effect this would have.

In South Korea and Japan for example, very low birth rates combined
with few immigrants and high life expectancy have led to a
dwindling workforce and a rapidly growing elderly population. These
countries may be in serious trouble. Bears thinking about.

Foxy loves the New World Order.

Dear Armchair Critic,

No. What Foxy loves is the values of freedom, democracy,
the law, and equal opportunity. She rejects practices which
undermine these values. She loves our immigration nation
that is not defined by race, religion, or culture but by
our shared values. We are an integrated and united people.
And this is something that our PM also fully supports:

http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/multicultural-australia-united-strong-successful

Armchair Critic- You can't expect Foxy to see things another way she has taken the cool-aid they feed people in Universities and Government Departments. Ayn Rand has been known to have a similar effect on some people though on the other side of the spectrum. It would take something extraordinary to change the way she sees the world. Maybe it's even to her benefit- that would explain a lot. That's ok it will come soon- hopefully enough people wake up in the meantime. It's sad to see my families history come to an end after thousands of years. When my families descendants ask me what happened at least I can point to the comments and say "I tried".

Foxy- I'll need to get back to your comments later. But a tidbit... Everyone spreads propaganda (and disinformation)- that's why it's important to look at the journalist principles- who, what, why, where, how- when judging the quality of comments. People have an internal (what they really believe) and external dialogues (their propaganda)- some like Kant are notoriously and intentionally naive and believe their own propaganda. A policy that I sometimes use "Don't tell people how to think- just get them to think."

Canem Malum,

I'm not going to argue with you on any topic.
My European background is
something of which - I am very proud - as you are of
your ancestry and neither of us should be at odds
with the other. However your comment to Armchair
Critic about me was uncalled for as you don't really
know anything about me. I shall be more careful of
responding to you in the future. You obviously are
not the debater that I thought you were. Don't bother
responding to me. I shan't be reading it.

Foxy,
Have you ever heard the saying:
'The road to hell is paved with good intentions?'

I think you are a well meaning person.
But one that ignorantly lays those pavers for their entire nations future.

But it's not 'really' your nation is it?
I hypothesise that you don't see yourself as being an Australian any more than you see yourself as an immigrant right?

And because you primarily see yourself as an immigrant, you'll always vote for more immigrants.
The difference between you and me is I don't see myself as an immigrant.

What I can't understand is why do you sell us out?
How can people who think of themselves as decent be the complete opposite?
It kind of makes you a wolf in sheep's clothing, does it not?

You say you love the values of freedom, democracy, the law, and equal opportunity, but is what you proclaim not a complete contradiction instead?
Islam does not care for our way of life, it destroys it.
I challenge you to prove otherwise.

In my opinion you'd have to be dead, dumb and Downe Syndrome not to recognise the damage to western nations in Islam's wake.

You see it seems to me that you don't really care how many are raped and killed for what you believe though you like using words that make others think you do.
In your mind those statistics don't exist.
All you believe in is some fairytale where Muslims, Infidels and Homosexuals all live together in some ridiculous utopia where everyone just magically gets along.

You don't support Australians, you support Muslims;
I'm not sure it's actually possible for one to have their cake and eat it too.

[Cont.]
You see my family's been here for 8 or 9 generations.
Why would I see myself as an immigrant Foxy? Why? It doesn't make sense.

If your ignorance of thinking Australia is just a nation of immigrants like you consider yourself, gatecrashing the country long after ANZAC happened, then you'll always vote for more immigrants like welfare votes for more welfare.

And people like my family, who've been here for generations, well you forget that we're not immigrants like you who came yesterday, you ignore the fact that some families have been here for centuries making it what it is (or was) and you spit in our faces as you sell the nation out for your pie in the sky beliefs, which is really just ignorant 'useful idiot' support of the New World Order.

When I started this conversation I did so well aware of our current world, a place that highlights the worst in one faith, to the extent like it or not, in just this country any party seen as likely to let the boat refugees recomence will never be elected, truth is hard to take but remains true,I saw open arms policy in the EU, slowly turn, even Britain leaving the EU, what ever reason politicians gave, was voters showing concern about this very issue,hence an understanding in ten twenty or even 50 years these trends will have big impacts on us all,no not open racism, just truth.yes I found reason to both defend the average Muslim, but too to highlight my view no faith ever should have any control over me or my life, too that some true evil lives within this faith, kills many thousands more Muslims than it kills us,continued

I have no choice, to ignore this morning's news is to say it does not matter a Wife of a charged terrorist yesterday had her wish to wear clothing covering her face, knocked back by the judge,what was her reason for wanting to do that? we are told it is not part of the Islamic faith,was her reason to show a difference? or to confront? why do we creep and crawl around the truth in our need to not be racist? Scotts men do not wear their countries garb,Greeks unless going to an event do not, YOU and I would not! ever! be able to dress as we please in say Saudi Arabia! yes racism is dumb, but plenty of not well informed folk will see the events I highlighted as reason to hate,two questions why in my country must I who believe in no God change to fit in with theirs? and when will the few change to fit in with my culture, 50 years a longtime sure to be changes sure more terrorist deaths and not so sure humanity will mature in those years

"In South Korea and Japan for example, very low birth rates combined
with few immigrants and high life expectancy have led to a
dwindling workforce and a rapidly growing elderly population. These
countries may be in serious trouble. Bears thinking about."

South Koreans have thought about it Foxy.
They aren't as stupid as we are and they said "Hell No!" and pointed their fingers directly at the UN refugee policy.

The corporate media won't tell you about South Korea because it doesn't have a BS narrative for people like yourself to eat up.

Which basically shows you news is propaganda to sell you a narrative.
The word 'idiot box' seems relevant right now.

http://m.dw.com/en/south-koreans-resist-arrival-of-yemeni-asylum-seekers/a-44400236

Japan is doing very well with zero immigration. They are still much smarter than we are. They don't have to worry about Muslim atrocities and Left wing cranks. They still have manufacturing industries. They are not subjects of the United Nations as are Western countries. They mind their own business.

BTW, Here's your beloved San Francisco.
- Failed Liberal Experiment -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5413551/Drug-needles-feces-line-streets-San-Francisco.html

//I hypothesise that you don't see yourself as being an Australian any more than you see yourself as an immigrant right?

And because you primarily see yourself as an immigrant, you'll always vote for more immigrants.
The difference between you and me is I don't see myself as an immigrant.//

//You see my family's been here for 8 or 9 generations.
Why would I see myself as an immigrant Foxy? Why? It doesn't make sense.//

The fewest my family have been here for is 3, on my maternal grandfather's side - his mother came out on the boat from Ireland. All the other branches of the family tree can be traced back further than that, although I can't remember exact numbers off the top of my head.

7/8 of my great-grandparents weren't immigrants, none of my grandparents were and my parents definitely weren't. I don't consider myself an immigrant either, AC. But I don't fear and despise recent arrivals the way you seem to (I do think the quantity we're bringing in is too high, but I object to the scale not the principle). How do you explain that, if the lack of xenophobia is caused by people considering themselves to be immigrants? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

My theory is that it's because most of my ancestry can be traced back to Ireland. So I'm perhaps a little bit more aware than others that a hundred years or so ago, it was the Irish on the receiving end of this sort of nonsense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvtKolUaMO4

Any of those criticisms of the Irish sound a bit familiar to you? And that's why it seems to me that, well, I'll let Dame Shirley Bassey explain it for you through the medium of song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzLT6_TQmq8

//Japan is doing very well with zero immigration.//

Their population is already declining and set to continue its downwards trajectory. If you think that's not going to cause them any economic woes, you're dreaming.

Ordinary people have to realise that we are becoming less important to the elites all the time. With careful breeding and automation, they will need fewer and fewer of us. The political class (it has already turned into one amorphous blob) already knows that it can push through legislation we don't approve of and have never asked for). Mass immigration is one of them: illiterate, low wage immigrants to do the jobs we won't do – cleaning, driving taxis, mistreating old people in smelly nursing homes – the types who will accept low wages so that welfare can be removed altogether. High energy prices that only the elites can afford. The writing is on the wall. Get rid of the middle class; replace them with cheap peons.

Toni Lavis said- "My theory is that it's because most of my ancestry can be traced back to Ireland. So I'm perhaps a little bit more aware than others that a hundred years or so ago, it was the Irish on the receiving end of this sort of nonsense:"

Answer- There has been an Irish prejudice narrative going around recently relating to Ned Kelly (1854-1880) story. Well Australia was a British Colony so they considered the Irish a potential threat. The Irish had their own threats in Ireland at the time. Often people that are closest have significant conflict- this can be taken advantage of by people even more different- just look at the Christian denominations. The pattern of concentric circles seems to apply here. At the moment Irish people are considered as part of the family of western cultures. It's concerning that Ireland looks to have an ethnic Indian Prime Minister. Given that he also promotes himself as gay it appears that intersectionality has worked for him. If a leader of a country has views/ behavior widely different than that of the governed there is the question as to whether they will act in the interest of the governed

Toni Lavis said- "Their population is already declining and set to continue its downwards trajectory. If you think that's not going to cause them any economic woes, you're dreaming."

The Japanese are an innovative, adaptive, well disciplined bunch. Their manufacturing capabilities are highly automated. Toni Lavis- do you have any evidence of your claims of economic threats in Japan. In the 70s economists said from memory that if you give $2 to business $1 will go to more employment- in more modern times industry is less reliant on labour for production. Japan has a successful space program. Japan's per capita income is one of the best in the world. Their systems of MITI and Kieretsu organisations were a good example of Japan's excellent management strength. Western countries have long criticised Japan and China for their opaque un-exploitable systems- but they have protected their countries from outside forces. I wish we had more of these patriotic people in government and public service in Australia. Japan has the longest average lifespan of any country. Japan has a number of high quality world brands. The reports appear to indicate that Japan's population will decrease from 130M to 100M by 2050. Japan apparently doesn't try to justify themselves externally to other countries- they just get things done. Very admirable.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/japan-population/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Sorry for the anecdotal nature of this post

We do understand? refugees and migrants are not all Muslim? What if Israel fell in these 50 years ahead?or a European country? for sure those 50 years will bring massive changes are we asking for an end to all of the above or just Muslims? the seeds of change have been planted in the EU any observer can see some reduction in migrants is ahead, maybe targeting Muslims, but in the end monoculturalism is dead already

Good Morning Armchair Critic,

Why on earth would I see myself as an immigrant?

I was born here, grew up here, went to school, high school,
university here, I live and work here, got married here,
raised a family here, I am an Australian citizen - with all
the rights and responsibilities that it entails. And yet you
have the gall to tell me that I consider myself an immigrant
because I support multiculturalism and regard our country
a nation of immigrants or descendants of immigrants?

I am truly gobsmacked. Yes, my ancestry is European - so what.
We all have different ancestors. But are you saying that if
they're not Anglo-Celtic - we're not true Australians? In that
case - shame on you.

As for my advocating more immigration? I am trying to debate
what effect greatly lowering our intake would have on our
economy, our goods and services and our country's wealth.
This is something that does need
to be discussed - and I am sure that our governments will do
precisely that - as they've done in the past.

As for Muslims? Our own Prime Minister has stated that our
and I quote, "Immigration nation is not defined by race, religion,
culture but by our shared values of freedom, democracy, the
law and equal opportunity. We reject practices which undermine
these shared values..."

I do not now, nor ever have support extremists or terrorists -
no matter who they are or where they come from. And my posting
record clearly shows that.

The link below is worth a read - it illustrates why multiculturalism
has been successful in Australia as compared to other countries:

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/success-australia-s-multiculturalism

Belly said "in the end monoculturalism is dead already"

Answer- Monoculturalism is not dead. "There is always a dominant culture" it's just it may not be ours. There will likely be a fight between people of India and China for Australian territory and Australians will be swept away and bred out and ignored. China will eventually lose the battle with India. In a hundred years the Australian people will be a dead race that will be lucky if it has a mention in a history book. The land of Australia will be decimated as half a billion people relocate from India increasing Australia's population by twenty times. The Australian businesses won't benefit either and will be dominated by Indian businesses and used as a foothold into world dominance. Effectively Australia will become a sister country of India. India will have dominance over Indonesia and probably the whole of South East Asia.

The Ruler and the Outlaw are opposite on the wheel of "The Four Cardinal Orientations"- Freedom / Order and Social / Ego. An interesting comparison might be the "Socialist / Capitalist" and "Authoritarian / Anti-authoritarian" two dimensional political table (see Political Compass http://www.politicalcompass.org/).

See Jungian archetypes

http://www.soulcraft.co/essays/the_12_common_archetypes.html

6. The Rebel/ Outlaw/ Revolutionary
Motto: Rules are made to be broken
Core desire: revenge or revolution
Goal: to overturn what isn't working
Greatest fear: to be powerless or ineffectual
Strategy: disrupt, destroy, or shock
Weakness: crossing over to the dark side, crime
Talent: outrageousness, radical freedom
The Outlaw is also known as: The rebel, revolutionary, wild man, the misfit, or iconoclast.

12. The Ruler
Motto: Power isn't everything, it's the only thing.
Core desire: control
Goal: create a prosperous, successful family or community
Strategy: exercise power
Greatest fear: chaos, being overthrown
Weakness: being authoritarian, unable to delegate
Talent: responsibility, leadership
The Ruler is also known as: The boss, leader, aristocrat, king, queen, politician, role model, manager or administrator.

Dear Belly,

"Australia would risk its future prosperity if it chose the
isolationist path on immigration." This warning was made by
former Victorian Premier Steve Bracks in his speech given
at the 2010 Brooks Oration for Deakin University.

He stressed the fact that Immigrants had been pivotal to the
nation's post war success and that they remain vital for the
coming century.

"We need migrants. We need them in our
workforce to drive our economy into the 21st century. We need
them to help us to make the transition to a sustainable economy...
It's not a question of yes or no on migration."

Mr Bracks said that it was not in our interest to be isolationists.
That we have to guard against the demonising of entire communities,
because that's the kind of "Fortress Australia" mentality that
led to the isolationism and monoculturalism of the White Australia
Policy.

The former Labor Premier spoke about the fact in which both
parties had rejected a "Big Australia." Picking up on the public
mood of resentment over inflated house prices, over crowded
public transport and road conjestion and in some cases over
immigrant groups creating cultural enclaves within big cities.
He spoke about setting caps on immigrants - so that sustainability
could be maintained. However -

He made it quite clear that if we become insular in our thinking
we will miss out on new opportunities for the kind of investment
and next-generation technologies we need to make a leap forward
in our economy.

And if we miss out on these opportunities overseas, the future
prosperity and sustainability of our nation will be at risk.

Mr Bracks said the current political leaders should heed the
lessons of the recent past. The success or failure of
multiculturalism is not just up to our government leaders. Leaders
can lead by example. Ultimately though, the day-to-day task of
living and working alongside people who may appear on face value
to be different falls to communities.

cont'd ...

Foxy said- "Yes, my ancestry is European - so what.
We all have different ancestors. But are you saying that if
they're not Anglo-Celtic - we're not true Australians? In that
case - shame on you."

Answer- One way to look at it is that those people that are very different from Australian people and don't have a long history of Australian and British ancestors don't have a commitment to the formation of Australia by the British (Anglo-Celtic's) and the interest of the continued control of Australia by Australians- this probably more about who's got the power than any objective view on who should have the power. One view is- similar to ownership of real estate, cultures own countries. But Europeans do have some traditions in common with the British. The Greek and Roman traditions are considered by many as the foundation of Western Culture. The Catholic Church was perhaps the dominant party in the middle ages. The German, French and British dominance from about the 1500s may be considered more influential until 1920s. Currently the US is most influential. Because Greek and Italian culture has influenced British and Australian culture in the past means we are more accepting of their people than cultures that are further afield.

I don't feel "shame" for these views and am concerned about those who would "demonize people out of the own country" by labelling them as shameful.

If I went to Japan and criticised the Emperor I would expect to be disliked. In the same way if a European person or their ancestor comes to Australia- then say that those people that gave them shelter are "shameful" for their protection of their culture- such a "European person" could have a few names. And it might discourage other cultures from accepting outsiders.

There have been a few people quoting "politicians and department support of immigration" (John Howard, Steve Bracks, Australian Human Rights Commission). This could be somewhat "superfluous" as everyone agrees that both political sides support high immigration rates even if the electorate doesn't support it.

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

There have been quite a few suggestions in the past as to how
to deal with some of the problems that we may face in the
future regarding sustainability. Our cities cannot keep
growing at the rate that they are. We all know that they
are getting too big and putting a strain on services, transport,
road conjestion, and so on. Our governments need to look at
better long-term planning. Suggestions for building new towns
along inter-state transport routes with new infrastructure,
services and industry to encourage people
to move out of the big conjested
urban areas. Perhaps there could be a requirement for immgrants
to move into these areas as a condition of being accepted into
the country (as the 2 year work contracts were for the post war
migrants). Just a thought.

Foxy has said a few times that "Australia is an immigrant country"- presumably therefore Foxy sees everyone in Australia as immigrants- therefore Foxy is also an immigrant presumably.

"Australia is a British country" but we also have a large influence from Ireland. Let me draw a pie chart... in 3d to account for the historical changes...

Foxy much of what you say is what I say, constantly,however if we try to solve any problem the best we can expect is something in the middle I TRULY wanted to get views about how others see the undoubted changes 50 years will bring, said here and in the other thread that in the end is about Muslims, mono culture is dead, no turning back, but yes hight lighting strongly a change I see, right now a very real danger is the emerging right, all over the world, Trump rode into town on that wave, it is my view both sides of politics will, in part, notice and act on that danger, it is well past time the overly PC stopped telling us expecting SOME degree of assimilation is racist, time will see some assimilation take place,and it should,no more than 3 percent of us are from Muslim background,about that number are from yet other faiths,I am from [Australian Census ] 30 percent nonbeliever, have I any rights? should I change? such is humanity we do change and 50 years is a long time

Dear Belly,

My parents came to this country as displaced persons
after World War II - in 1949. They were part of the
Baltic peoples' intake (fleeing Lithuania from the
Soviet Regime). As you know I was born in this country.
They were considered "ideal" immigrants - ones who
assimilated easily and became similar to the host
population as a result of social interaction and through
the shedding of their culture. Yet I find myself having
to explain who I am and where my loyalties lie -
on a discussion forum to strangers. What does
that tell you? That I'll never be accepted?
That after all this time - I'm looked upon as being
foreign? And when I dare to suggest that this is a shameful
thing? Frankly words fail me.

As for what the future holds for this country?
Hopefully it will be better than what I'm currently
experiencing for my granddchildren and great-grandchildren.

Foxy we here are not in truth a good representation of our country men and women, we all seem to push views we rarely bend, and as you like myself, are from other than Conservative ranks we will be highlighted by some, in fact if we polled our country men and women, and asked them both their background and opinion about the subject of this thread, you will find their views are the same as the average, SMH this day has an informative story on how migrants are settling in and it supporets my view, a negativity about, lets face it Muslims,lets some insult others who do not share our views,no one can ignore the truth, this country thrived on the back of the immigration that bought your parents here my mother was one of 13 children, her siblings and their children wed people from that post ww2 migration in take and no one dare tell me they are not Aussies

Foxy said (1)- "My parents came to this country as displaced persons after World War II - in 1949. They were part of the Baltic peoples' intake (fleeing Lithuania from the Soviet Regime). As you know I was born in this country. They were considered "ideal" immigrants - ones who assimilated easily and became similar to the host population as a result of social interaction and through
the shedding of their culture."

Answer-
Concentric circles and perspective. Concentric circles- Australia was created by the British. There are hierarchies of entitlement even within Britain. You can't assume that people are the same as their propaganda. However Foxy's words/ perspective appear to indicate that Australia should have high immigration (Australia should give away its country to immigrants). Loyalty is indicated by peoples words and actions.

It's interesting that Foxy appears to be indicating that certain things are bad (Soviet Regime) and good (assimilation, similarity to host population, social interaction, shedding culture).

___

Foxy said (2) "Yet I find myself having to explain who I am and where my loyalties lie - on a discussion forum to strangers."

Answer- It's not your parentage that have made me question the principles it's your promotion of multiculturalism. If a person appears willing to give Australia away- I might ask myself why that is- and do some research on that person, look at the principles the person uses to make their case, their politics, their links with Australia and how far they go back and to where. Usually when people suggest a course of action its because it's in their perceived interest. Often I find people are more willing to give things away that they didn't earn through effort- you don't identify with it- it's not part of your soul. Generally Australian's in the past have been ok with a small amount of immigration but given the recent high levels of immigration are "no longer happy".

Dear Belly,

A debate about Australia's migration program - how large
it is, which migrants are prioritised and why, is a
legitimate public policy discussion.

The thing about the current debate, it becomes disturbing
when you attack a particular ethnic group. You can have a
reasoned debate about population size and accompanying
issues if you don't attach that to a particular group.
Then it becomes emotive and not evidence-based and develops
a momentum of itself.

One debate that we haven't had is around WHERE immigrants
move to. We are one of the most urbanised countries and the
vast majority of immigrants settle in cities, overwhelmingly
Melbourne and Sydney.

It's interesting that there is a massive appetite in the bush
for refugees and also for migration more broadly. Attitudes
towards new immigrants in rural and regional areas where you'd
expect "redneck Australia", the warmth of the welcome was/is
overwhelming towards both permanent migrants and humanitarian
entrants. Such as we've seen in towns like Shepparton,
Benalla, Bathrust, to name just a few.

This could be a win-win situation if it is well managed.
Australia can maintain its migration levels, even increase its
humanitarian program and you can diffuse the urban conjestion
and address the house price and other issues as well as
address population decline and economic stagnation in rural and
regional areas.

A naïve Melbourne bishop has urged Liberals to “drop the gangs campaign” against African immigrant gangs because it “negatively stereotypes innocent youth”. The Liberal slogans do not mention black, African or Sudanese, just gangs; but, we know which people make up the only gangs in the game.

Bishop Philip Huggins, who “works extensively” with Sudanese 'communities', clearly hasn't had much return from his extensive work, but he objects to the only body that has any chance of success.

So unworldly and unaware is His Grace that he denies that there is a massive problem with African gangs. His ignorant use of “only 1%” of Sudanese being connected to crime overlooks the matter of the relatively small representation of Sudanese in the wider community. The fact is, they are represented out of all proportion to their overall presence.

This is just another example of a churchman getting political because he and his core business have lost relevance. Separation of church and state works both ways. And there is every chance that this man is actually enabling the gangs by going in to bat for them.

Foxy even I can not totally put aside my concerns about SOME Muslims, the very point is THEY chose to be seperate, not as the post w2 intake did, but forever, no other migrant group I can think of confronted us with the manner they dressed, EG BURKA no other had some/a few who openly confronted our very way of life,this is damaging, to them as much as us, 50 years from now it will be far less so,grand and great grandchildren of today's migrants will be far different,it is not racist or xenophobic to highlight such things,if it is then surely some/the few we talk of are too racist? time changes us all, remember, even tell me why if you do not agree, mono culture is dead ,never to be seen again, but we can and will live in a far better world as we learn to live with that truth.

//but, we know which people make up the only gangs in the game.//

Don't they have bikies in Melbourne? I should move south. No bikies means no ice, and ice users scare the bejeesus out of me.

Perhaps working with these gangs the bishop is able
to see and experience what the general public can't.
And is genuinely trying to try something new for
a change to see if this approach will work.

As stated earlier - the thing about the current debate -
it becomes disturbing when you attack a particular
ethnic group. "Chinese immigrants are destroying the
housing market," or talk about so called "African gangs."
Or refer to Muslims as following a religion that preaches
hatred and terrorism.

We can have a reasoned debate about population size
and accompanying issues if we don't single out and attach
that to a particular group. Then it becomes emotive and
not evidence-based and develops a momentum of itself.

How would any of us like to have this sung about us:

"Aussie, Aussie, born and bred
Long in the leg
And thick in the head!"

Nice - right?

Foxy,

Migrants are not one homogenous group, the different ethnic groups have different characteristics. The Chinese are hardworking and not known for rampaging street gangs, but the Sudanese are. The Indians are technically adept and not known for acts of terror or the oppression of women, yet others are.

While this is not politically correct and the left whinge will have a fit over it, it is the reality on the ground.

We should not defend criminals just because they come from an ethnic minority, too we must not brand all from that minority for the crimes that concern us, I could waste hundreds of words defending these few Sudanese youths, poor background and culture education, the list is endless, we IF we defend them because of their race, are in my view feeding the racist haters, they exist, they did the crime, they like any criminal any race, should pay. if we can not say that, if we defend no matter what, the racist are in the end right.if being a minority, in any way, excuses criminal acts we are lost

Continued...

"Even a zero net immigration policy won't fix the current disaster"- current and recent immigrants have higher birth rates than Australian's and so stand to start to breed out locals. The fallout of this is that Australian's will show suspicion to (question the loyalty of) others that indicate that their heritage or politics have an immigration bias.

Australians feel that they have been tricked and now they will punish- fair enough! Anybody, any animal, will behave aggressively when threatened. Political fixes do tend to be somewhat arbitrary but we wouldn't be in this situation if the politician's listened to the people in the first place. My suggestion is- "support the Australian people" and you will less likely have your loyalty questioned.
____

Foxy said (3) "What does that tell you? That I'll never be accepted?"

Answer- Acceptance is a two way street. If a person doesn't accept Australian's right to Australia- Australian's won't accept the person's right to Australia.

___

Foxy said (4) "I'm looked upon as being foreign? And when I dare to suggest that this is a shameful thing? Frankly words fail me. As for what the future holds for this country?"

Answer- Chronologically- 1. Foxy claimed she is an immigrant ("Australia is an immigration nation" so presumably Foxy thinks of herself as foreign if all Australians are immigrants )- 2. commentators say that based on the fact that she is an immigrant there is a conclusion (I think the conclusion was that Foxy is an immigrant)- 3. Foxy complains about being called an immigrant and says the commentors are shameful and bad for the future.
____

Foxy said (5) "Hopefully it will be better than what I'm currently experiencing for my granddchildren and great-grandchildren."

Answer- Over many generations descendants develop a strong attachment to the land and the people become part of the land.

Not an Australian story but I think you'll like it...

The Spirit of the willow tree
http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/atfj/atfj04.htm

Dear Belly,

I totally agree with you that we certainly should not
defend criminals or extremists no matter where they
come from or who they are. My posting record on this
subject speaks for itself.

As Australians we value our way of life and we take
pride in our nation and its people. However it is
always important to be vigilant and nip extreme
intolerance of any kind in the bud.

Regardless of numbers,
ethnic diversity is a fact of the modern age of migration
and we must deal with it. We do not want or need another
Cronulla. Therefore, as I stated earlier - we can have a
reasoned debate about population size and accompanying
issues if we don't attach that to a particular
group. Then it becomes emotive and not evidence-based
and develops a momentum of itself.

For me this discussion has now run its course.
I look forward to seeing you on another thread.

Shadow Minister,

Thank You for pointing out the fact that when discussing
migrants, especially non-British migrants people are
sometimes tempted to lump all newcomers together and
treat them as one homogeneous species.

Nothing is further from the truth. Australian immigrants
vary a great deal in their ethnic backgrounds, religions,
and educational levels. Their current social and educational
needs are not homogeneous, either. People have settled in
Australia for various reasons: economic, change of lifestyle,
adventure, refugees, family reunions, and so on.

The early months after arrival in a new country calls for
the greatest adjustment, not only for the migrant, but also
for the local people who interact with the migrant. Since
Culotta's humorous exposure of the problem, the literature
on this topic has been growing rapidly as we know.

Hey Foxy,
"The early months after arrival in a new country calls for the greatest adjustment, not only for the migrant, but also for the local people who interact with the migrant."

Gotcha, there's no way out of it this time.

That's your statement right?
That's the domonstration of your logic, now I'm going to PROVE your thinking is wrong.

You stated / acknowledged that local people who interact with the migrant also have to adjust.

And so it stands to reason that the multicultural utopia you envision can only occur IF the native citizens are willing to also adjust.

But how far must we go to adjust?

Your illogical and irrational thinking doesn't account for moving the goalposts.

I've tried to show you that Tommy Robinson video 4 times now but you ignore it and I think this is wilful ignorance.
If you did watch it you might hear the story of the UK police officer whose head was split open by a Muslim.

The man was arrested and when local Muslims all started to protest at the station and demand his release, the police caved and released him without charge, because they did not want nationwide uprising of Muslims.

And it's in this same spirit the Police and government are attacking Tommy Robinson, for simply exposing the Muslim rape gangs who specifically target non-muslim girls and sell them for sex.

This is what your supporting and what will come here, because of your support.

- There is no end to the 'adjustments' native citizens will have to make for your imagined utopia; that will never work anyway.

You think the goal is multicultural utopia.
It's not, It's One World Government.

I've given you all enough links on this forum to figure it out for yourselves you schmucks.

You say you care about democracy, but your choice changes our society (by changing the people) then your choice changes the government to socialist, (because we have changed demographics) Then the socialist government with feelgood liberal social agendas for 'useful idiots' run it into debt and sell it out to globalists;

Your imagined utopia is only possible if we adjust, and when it doesn't happen because you cannot force us to adjust you'll go down blaming us in support of foreigners.

Just like Theresa May.

Your choice is the death knell for democracy, because your too dumb to understand this is the globalists design.

It's no accident the same agendas are pushed in western countries.

We don't have democracy, we don't choose our future, we are steered in the direction they want us to go, decieved; managed.

People might've been able to call a conspiracy theorist such 20 or 30 years ago but not anymore.

You'd have to be an idiot not to see what's happening around us.

Well we sure let our biases out in this thread, did not see a lot of attempts at psychic abilities on display or even best thoughts about that future, so here are my thoughts, we will still have migration, we will still have refugees,the economic ones may find it much harder to gain entry in any countrys, the poor of other countries will still power some western country in food harvesting and such, war terrorist acts will contribute to change in the Islamic world, just maybe dictators will not be removed so readly, and less hate based on blind racism, from both sides will be in place Turkeys refusal to send that terrorist home to face trial confirms some countries will still be a problem

Good job Armchair Critic.

Dear Belly,

At present, Australia is one of the most ethnically
diverse societies in the world. Well over twenty per cent
of all Australians were born in another country, more
than half of these have come to Australia from non-English-
speaking countries in Europe, the Middle East, South
America and Asia. More than 42 per cent were born outside
Australia or had a parent born outside Australia. Many of
these people speak a language other than English at home.

However, the concept of multiculturalism continues to have
different meanings for different people. Hidden anti-migrant
prejudices may not be voiced in public until they are
highlighted by some well-publicized event such as Pauline
Hanson's speech and behaviour in our Parliament. Some
Australians still believe that a "unique Australian society
and identity emerged with Federation and ... this identity
should be the basis of immigrant assimilation."

We must deal with all these problems to move forward as a free,
fair, and vibrant society. I have no doubt whatsoever that
we can find solutions that suit us, provided we do not succumb
to the siren calls of demagogues, charlatans and ideologues.

Peter Costello wrote in his Memoirs,

"Politics, for all its rough edges, is a civilised and
civilising calling. Despite all the obloquy shovelled on the head
of politicians, they are men and women who work the machinery of
of our liberal democratic way of life. They reflect public
opinion - and at their best lead public opinion - and transmute
it into laws that shape our society and our country." And they
will continue to do precisely that.

They will continue to discuss the unresolved problems that face us
like addressing Indigenous disadvantage, refugees, and migration.
These problems as I've stated earlier - we must deal with to
move forward as a free, fair and vibrant society. And as stated
earlier I have no doubt we can find the solutions that suit us -
provided we do not succumb to the siren calls of demagogues,
charlatans and ideologues.

See you on another discussion.

Cheers.

Foxy said- "Peter Costello wrote in his Memoirs,"

Answer- Another quote from Foxy from a pro immigration politician saying the democratic Australian electorate needs re-education.

Please note that the quote given from Peter Costello's
Memoirs had nothing to do with his views on immigration.

Now for the wilder stuff, as we continue to insult one another because of our differing views about politics let me throw a cat in the chicken coup, do we have ANY impact on what will take place in those 50 years or even today? *conspiracy theory,s have become so mad we ignore every one of them* BUT behind closed doors has some group set out to make one world one people a fact? why did a working system like integration need to become multiculturalism? what was gained? what however was lost? maybe the glue that binds us?could such a group exist? those who follow us in 50 years may have that answer no no no not an Islamic future just a whole o9f humanity one

Some interesting stats:

"Crime statistics showing Sudanese-born people are 57 times more likely to be charged with aggravated robbery in Victoria than their Australian-born counterparts have sparked ­renewed calls for a law-and-order crackdown by the ­Andrews government.

Figures from the Victorian Crime Statistics Agency, to the end of March, also show Sudanese-born people are 33 times more likely to be charged with riot and affray compared with Australian-born counterparts.

Despite just 0.15 per cent of the state’s population having been born in Sudan and modern-day South Sudan, figures for the past five years show the African country has consistently been among the top two or three places of birth for offenders charged with crimes including aggravated burglary, serious assault, motor vehicle theft, aggravated robbery, and riot and affray."

Few facts they are 0.1 percent of the population, they commit 1 percent of the crimes, so yes for whatever reason they are both overly represented and ? a problem, but me no buts, IF we call for less policing because they are from a minority, we act in a racist way,equality is my aim, in all things,those crying on behalf of these criminals would not whisper a word if they are WASPs weird but true

Belly said " those who follow us in 50 years may have that answer no no no not an Islamic future just a whole o9f humanity one"

Answer- Belly seems to have a lot of faith in the "myth of world humanity". In Confucianism a similar argument occurred between Mencius and Xunzi- saying that humans are basically good and bad. Rely on processes and systems not people- don't try and change nature too much- control population- this is the way to a peaceful society.

International research has shown that some measure of
assimilation is inevitable for any ethnic community.
Even seemingly airtight communities such as Hasidic Jews
cannot totally escape a slight touch of assimilation.
Furthermore, assimilation is a two-way process. As an
immigrant absorbs the culture of his host country, he is
also giving off and surrendering some of his own imported
heritage. As a result, a Greek, Italian, Arab, Jew, Asian,
living in Australia for a long-time is likely to gradually
create a new identity, although he may not be aware of it.

What the former immigrants still believe to be their identity
may well be regarded as totally Australian by the contemporary
residents of their former countrymen. As a result it can be
argued that they have left themselves open to unavoidable
gradual assimilation. We've seen this happening over the
decades in this country. And at present Australia is one of
the most ethnically diverse societies in the world. This
will continue with any new immigrants that we acquire.

Every word could have been mine Foxt totally agree

I see that the biggest Sudanese population is in Blacktown Sydney, and there is no gang violence. Maybe Desperate Dan Andrews should pop down and see a success story.

Worth knowing that seat is held by Labor with the recent Mayor of Blacktown, an ex high up in my union holding it,not sure any criminal gets a free run in Sydney's wild west

Good to know that the state premier is liberal which has the most influence

Yes she never won the job had it handed to her by yet another investment banker out to profit from what he learned in the job,funny how your mob do that

Belly,

I agree that the crims don't get a free run in Blacktown. I bet that an ex-union boss makes them all have to pay their dues.

Shadow Minister,

At least some are paying their dues rather than
stealing them from the public purse.
I'm sure you'll agree.

Must be hard being you bloke! the man is well known to me a future great in the ALP he has taken the first step towards leading our state and he has the right form he cares for those in need has worked many hours more than he was ever paid for in pursuit of fairness, have to highlight no area of Sydney has more down trodden and yes petty criminals but he help it together very very well

Apparently, Craig Thompson was also a great guy?

Belly,

If you are referring to the 11 Lib MPs bounced for getting funds from developers, note that they all were gone instantly, and none of them rorted one cent from the taxpayer.

Shadow Minister,

The base salaries of our MPs set at $195,130 make
Australia's MPs leading a world record. Of course
many of them appear to be dipping into the public
purse with their unaccountable high spending above
and beyond their huge base salaries.

Pointing the finger at only one side of politics is
ludicrous and biased. Apparently we spent more than
$4.5 million just on office fit outs and upgrades for MPs
and Senators July-Dec last year. But there's much more
on the web.

You can Google the ten most outrageous things pollies
have spent our money on. If we continued with this
finger-pointing game - we'd end up with no fingers.

travel rorts was invented by conservatives check out Julie Bishops and the expense she has charged us for her boyfriend bronwyn too

Belly,

The world champ of travel rorts was Juliar who took a jet to go to a Labor fundraiser costing $400 000, closely followed by Burke who took his assistant with him several times overseas to sleep with her while his wife stayed at home, and SHY who took her kids whale watching at taxpayers' expense.