(Continued)

From your post it seems that you see religion as a man made devise to control people. I disagree. I see most religions as something that originated to help people, regardless if they are man made or divine. But after that there is a mix of people trying to stay true to their faith or the teachings of their faith, along with people who try to manipulate others through the faith of the masses. In spite of this there is still the part of the puzzle piece that is God Himself. What I told you before is still what I want you to consider. There are things in the world that have no other explanation except that God was there acting on His own, or the people who say they witnessed or experienced these things are lies or at best experienced short episodes of craziness. The amount of experiences world wide make me think that those who say there is no God are actively blind. Choosing to look away or to find excuses for what others claim. In my opinion it's kind of arrogant to be this way.

I'm sorry your dad was turned away from church life because of a priest. Not having been there I can't say much about the situation. I believe in the merit of tithing, but I've also seen people in their greed ask for more and more. TV ministries that in the middle of them or near the end make a passionate call to donate to the ministry. Not an amount like 10% or something, but more like an amount of "send us $_________ amount" to receive "blessings," "healing," "riches," or if nothing else a plea that they can't continue without the viewer's help.

Without being there I don't know if the priest was preaching about tithing or was about pushing for donations regardless of anything else. That priest doesn't represent all that God is. He is real. All you need to do is seek Him yourself.

Not_Now.Soon,

Would it help if I reminded you that nothing you have said is new to me? Your apologetics are almost verbatim what I too used to say to atheists. The difference now (and this is going to sound condescending, sorry) is that I understand that they are not satisfactory answers. Heck, there are Christians who understand that they are not satisfactory answers. They’re usually referred to as “sophisticated Christians”.

<<Observations about prayer aren't about sample sizes, because the conditions are never (or rarely) the same.>>

All this is an argument for is larger sample sizes. Not a case study.

<<They are more like case studies and in my opinion should be approached in that manner.>>

So, again, how do you control for confirmation bias and co-incidence?

<<After all when you get to sample sizes you get close to two things that I don't agree with. One is to test God… >>

Firstly, an honestly conducted case study would be “testing” God too. Secondly, it’s rather convenient that we’re not supposed to test God, don’t you think? Finally, no perfect being should ever have a problem with honest inquiry. Indeed, they should be proud of it.

<<… the other is to try and manipulate Him.>>

Testing the results of prayer is not manipulation, it’s observation.

<<For me the three things that are my examples in my life are …>>

Thanks for sharing that. From what you describe, however, none of your struggles are unique. Most people experience similar throughout their lives. I had learning difficulties as a child, yet I still managed to attain degrees in software engineering, law, and criminology. Similarly, doctors told my wife and I that we would never have children without IVF, yet we still did.

And all without a single prayer.

Just imagine what you could have accomplished had you realised that there was no god to help you (and lived in a country where social mobility was a realistic possibility)!

Continued…

…Continued

<<I know you don't like the idea of answered prayers …>>

Firstly, it’s not about what I like. Secondly, I have no problem with answered prayers so long as there’s reliable evidence for them. So far, no one has produced any.

<<How dare I pray for anything when there is so much worse out there then my needs.>>

It’s not a case of “How dare you!” at all. There’s nothing wrong with praying for your wants and needs when there are others with far greater needs. The problem arises with your alleged god supposedly tinkering in your life while doing nothing for millions of people who are far more needy, and the arrogance and self-centeredness of believing that he does.

Speaking of which, you haven’t answered my question:

“If all the starving children of the world prayed for themselves, would they receive food?” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255976)

My questions aren’t rhetorical. Note that it is obvious when you don’t answer them and why.

<<He still does answer prayers whether they are asking for anything, or whether they are prayers of thanksgiving and praise.>>

You have not yet provided evidence for this.

<<Because of your biases against prayer …>>

Until you provide me with some sort of reliable evidence for the efficacy of prayer, you are not in a position to gauge the extent of my biases. I have provided rational reasons to reject what little evidence you have provided me with, and you have not yet countered any of my responses.

<<Will you say "that's not impressive enough?">>

No, because it’s not about the level of impressiveness. It’s about the level of evidence. Even if you were to teleport yourself to me right now after praying, how could I verify that it was God who did that? How do I not know you just got your hands of some advanced alien technology?

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” - Arthur C. Clark

Go back 2000 years and show them a cigarette lighter. They will either worship you as a god or burn you as a witch.

Continued…

…Continued

<<As for your observation on doing instead of praying. I don't see any reason why people wouldn't both strive to work out their own struggles and pray at the same time.>>

Indeed they could. But believing that it’s “in God’s hands” can, to varying degrees, sap the sense of urgency felt. It certainly did for me. After all, to continue with the same sense of urgency was to doubt God, which is a sin, and sometimes a sense of urgency is there for a reason.

<<… I don't understand why the suffering in the world exists in the ways that it does.>>

Could it just be that a god doesn’t exist? See what I mean? Theists will never entertain this possibility. The problem of evil and suffering has been understood long before Christianity was ever around.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

<<My best guess is because the world is broken and God hasn't yet come to rid it of all the sin and evil within it.>>

Yet he can find the time to intervene in your life? What’s he waiting for?

“You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, ‘When you’re done, I’m going to punish you. ‘If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That’s the difference between me and your God.” - Tracie Harris

Again, why do you hold your god to a lesser standard to yourself?

//There are things in the world that have no other explanation except that God was there acting on His own, or the people who say they witnessed or experienced these things are lies or at best experienced short episodes of craziness.//

The old false trilemma, eh? Well, at least it's more sophisticated than your usual arguments. Still bollocks, though, because it ignores any possibilities other than the three options presented.

//I'm sorry your dad was turned away from church life because of a priest. Not having been there I can't say much about the situation. I believe in the merit of tithing//

Christ, they've really taken you for a ride, haven't they? Do you give money to Nigerian royalty as well? Tithing is a load of crap, dude. Have you not heard Aesop's fable 'The Man and the Wooden God'?

In the old days men used to worship stocks and stones and idols, and prayed to them to give them luck. It happened that a Man had often prayed to a wooden idol in the local temple, but his luck never seemed to change. He prayed and he prayed, but still he remained as unlucky as ever. One day in the greatest rage he went to the Wooden God, and with one blow swept it down from its pedestal. The idol broke in two, and what did he see? An immense number of coins flying all over the place."
The moral of the fable is: religion is just a con trick created to make money for the priests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mr6KFIM0m8
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/inside-the-hillsong-churchs-moneymaking-machine-20151026-gkip53.html

Don't be suckered in by tithing, dude. It's not a necessary requirement to be Christian; lot of them don't and still manage to be perfectly good Christians. It's just a convenient way for some churches (those whose bibles have had Mark 10:25 and Matthew 21:12-13 redacted) to squeeze a bit of dough out of their parishioners. And yeah, sure, they'll all claim it's for 'good works' - but I remain steadfastly unconvinced that buying new sports cars and Rolexes for pastors can be considered 'good works'.

If you really want to help the poor, you're better off giving straight to a front-line charity working directly with those in need, or even better, straight to those in need. If you give a homeless guy $50, he gets the benefit of all 50 of those dollars. If you put that same $50 in the collection plate at church I can guarantee that the church will be taking its cut, to the detriment of the homeless dude who will be ending up with less than the $50. Do you really want to further disadvantage homeless people by giving to a church rather than the poor? That doesn't seem very charitable. Isn't charity supposed to be one of your mob's seven heavenly virtues?

Oh, and for the record, Catholics do not have a tradition of tithing. At least not in Australia. Little wonder that Bush Bunny's old man took issue with a priest abusing his power to demand a tithe when that is against Church doctrine. I daresay that the priest was a thieving bastard, and I hope he got caught and defrocked.