One other thought, Not_Now.Soon.

I can’t help but feel that your new development, regarding the alleged efficacy of prayer (that God unexpectedly provides additional solutions to problems when prayed to), is an attempt to counter my observation that doing is far more productive than praying.

So, it got me thinking…

If God provides additional solutions to prayers then why is it that, despite the prayers of millions of Christians from all around the world every time there is another shooting massacre in the US, a solution to the problem never materialises?

Sure, God helps those who help themselves (funnily enough) and the US has done virtually nothing to fix the problem, but even you unwittingly admit that this doesn't always have to be the case when you say:

"There are solutions that occur after a prayer that are not part of what the person [praying] does." (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255971)

Why has not even one prayer, out of the millions from around the world, materialised a solution to the frequent massacres in the US, despite Matthew 18:19?

Do the solutions have to be unexpected? If so, then why would this be? Even if they do, surely not all Christians think to pray for an actual solution.

Or, is it because (as all the research suggests) intercessory prayer doesn’t work? (But then this assumes that none of the victims’ families and survivors only pray for themselves.)

This is quite a dilemma for the evidence you provide for God, and for any possible suggestion that praying can be more productive than doing. Neither of the above two answers that I can come up with are satisfactory.

I’d be fascinated to hear what your thoughts are.

Don't you think, that is not God answering your prayers. It is you, adjusting your mind set or query, then solving an internal problem. I see no harm in this, but you should take the credit not some Divine inspiration that influenced it. But in your mind it was God, but to me it was you yourself that dictates how you live, and your faith. Many sages and wise people saw religion as helping people on one hand, and controlling them and forcing them to obey a priest who had the power to connect them to God. Or not, depending on the denomination.

Humans are told we are born with free will. Bulshh, the law of the land is there to prevent people doing things that they see as harmful to others, and controlling our animal like subconcious instincts. Those instincts are still there, but we control them. Sure we are guided by the ten commandments, most in fact, other than creating false gods, leads to a more controlled society. But not exactly a happy one. Life is not fair to some, the talented are often held back as they don't have the support of a sponsor. Or are born in the wrong social set. They in a way are empowered by their faiths. But they would be empowered in the belief in their own strengths and knowledge and still live satisfying lives and be a trusted member of society.

The reason why my father broke away from the Roman Catholic church. Well - simple we moved from Brixton and went into a suburb. The local priest drove around in a Jaguar. The church was OK but it was always filled. He came around one day to my father who was a professional man, and demanded to remain a good catholic he had to provide 10% of his income to the church. Not my dad, he had been an altar boy of the church in his youth. Even thought of becoming a priest. That stopped him attending Mass. Never went back.

Well must go now, but will be back later.

To AJ Philips.

Observations about prayer aren't about sample sizes, because the conditions are never (or rarely) the same. They are more like case studies and in my opinion should be approached in that manner. After all when you get to sample sizes you get close to two things that I don't agree with. One is to test God, (which there is a verse to not test God), the other is to try and manipulate Him. People have books and theologies around praying the right way to get what you want. From saying the right things the right way, to clearing your mind, to thanking God before He answers the prayer. It all sounds manipulative and trying to control God instead of giving Him our concerns and letting Him work them out His way instead of our own. So instead look at each prayer request on an individual case. Or if someone wants to have their prayers answered, seek to follow God and turn from the things He says not to do.

There are better examples then my own where God answers a prayer by just letting things happen for a person after they try to do it on their own merit and run into dead ends and conditions they can't compete with. For me the three things that are my examples in my life are about finding a job, finding my wife, and searching for a home. With each of these I prayed intermittently and tried what I could again and again and almost ready to give up burned out on trying. I can not say that I earned everything that I have. Because honestly I struggled and failed and reached a breaking point gave up, tried again (after a period of doing nothing) and reached my breaking point again, and then just kept going on repeating this same cycle.

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I know you don't like the idea of answered prayers, especially with the needs of the world being what they are. How dare I pray for anything when there is so much worse out there then my needs. And how dare God answer my prayers when there are needs greater then mine. This is your view is it not? I don't know why there is the suffering in the world that exists the way it does, but for what ever reason God still is there. He still does answer prayers whether they are asking for anything, or whether they are prayers of thanksgiving and praise.

Because of your biases against prayer (and looking for an excuse for any prayer not being answered) I'm hesitant to give the details of my three examples. Partly because
I know there are better examples out there, but I don't remember other people's testimonies, nor could I answer any questions about them. Will you say "that's not impressive enough?" Because I gave up and am not impressive in my strength. My struggle was not great enough? I'll try to tell what I can (it's not much) after I address the rest of your posts and Bush Bunny's posts from the other day.

As for your observation on doing instead of praying. I don't see any reason why people wouldn't both strive to work out their own struggles and pray at the same time. This isn't an either/or kind of situation. (Unless your trying to test prayer by being lazy and not trying on your own. I wouldn't be impressed by such efforts, I doubt God would either. But He knows how much we do and how much we are able to do. He knows our strength and our weariness.

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Regarding the death toll in America, again I don't understand why the suffering in the world exists in the ways that it does. My best guess is because the world is broken and God hasn't yet come to rid it of all the sin and evil within it. Right now the world is a contrast to the better kingdom God promises in the future. When He fixes it He will forcefully remove all that is evil in the world. Until then, we need to be compassionate and generous. We live in a broken world that needs mending. Be there for the single parent, the widowed and the child who has no one else. Be there for the hungry, the sick, the foreigner, and the imprisoned.

As for prayer. Don't think of it like "prayer works" (even though God does answer prayers). I think we're missing the mark on that one. It's that God works. Our prayers are just bringing things to God. If someone prays for you or anyone else, and God answers the prayer, then you can thank the person who prayed if you even knew about it. But you should thank God more so. It's not the prayer or the person praying, it's God.

To Bush Bunny. Your perspective on prayer being a kind of inner strength thing might be inspiring and encouraging. But that doesn't line up with my observations regarding prayer. There are some cases where this might fit as an explanation. You pray and feel encouraged and then strive forward not knowing if it was your inner self or God that strengthened you. But there are many other prayer experiences that don't fit this mold and therefore can't be explained by the theory that it was all sub-conscience internal workings.

AJ Philips and I went into a long discussion regarding prayer and fath experiences a long time ago. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19198&page=13 If you would like to look over it at the end of page 13 and the beginning of page 14 I gave some examples of prayers that in my opinion ware a diverse set that don't fit a single explanation unless you count God as well art of the equation. You can look it over if you like. I'd rather not repeat them here and re hash them out. There are also more impressive experiences then my own, but what I have to offer is what I have to offer. And they do defy most explanations like the one you gave.

After a while, as I told AJ Philips, I can go into more detail of the three examples of God answering prayers after we try our hardest and still don't have a solution. I've heard others with similar experiences to that effect also. I think at least a few of them are inspiring storming of getting out of drug addictions. But again those aren't my experiences as I can't really offer them for an example to share and go into detail about. (Even if I did remember the details better).

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