To David f.

[I do not go around trying to convert people to my beliefs.]

Cut the crap David. That's exactly what you been doing from the earliest point in this conversation onwards. Your increasingly angry tone towards Christianity gives me the impression that you could very well be ok with bombing churches. In order to free the world of "the face of evil." As far as I can tell that is your view and the only concern you have. So please spare me the idea that Christianity is the evil of the world.

Look around you in world history and in present day events around the world. Christianity has been oppressed, and still is being oppressed by many nations. Some are religous nations some are atheistic nations that hold a view against any religion. This is both in modern day nations as well as throughout history. More people like you to say Christianity is the face of evil, will eventually lead to the actions you say you oppose. Burning at the stake as opposed to trapped in a church and burned alive as the building is set on fire? What difference does it make? Your views are not superior in morals. The only superiority you claim is to have science on your side, not that the great evils done against peaceful Christians wouldn't be repeated to stamp out the evil in the world.

I am not sidestepping wrongs done in the churches. But I am trying to focus on God. That's a difference you appear to try to avoid. The good that is done in the world by faithful Christians outweighs any harm you accuse it of. But more importantly, if I can find God. Then so can you. He will not hide Himself from those who seek Him. Look for God because He's not a delusion. Look for Him because if He's real then the world is much different then many assume it to be. If you don't find God, then you can at least say what you've done to seek Him.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Last thing. There's a difference between being Christian and seeking God. If Christianity is whoever believes in it, then it can be people who were raised around it and believe that they are saved by Jesus. Many people leave Christianity without seeking God, because their roots in Christianity weren't focused on learning about God, and Following Him. So when doubts creep in some people are easy to be turned away. Everyone faces doubt. That is not uncommon. Everyone has to come to terms with their faith in a world that has always shouldered some doubtful critic nearby. But it should be strange that some very smart people throughout history and even today call themselves Christian, and seek to be faithful in their life. How can that be if God is a delusion.

My strong belief might not mean anything to you because I am not an authority on any scientific studies, or on other studies throughout the world. But that does not make it wrong. I can not change who I am to be a better witness for you. Become a doctor or a biologist who marvels about God's design in anatomy or in nature (both of those kinds of witnesses have written books about their conclusions that God has to exist). Nor am I a miracle worker so that you can see by my actions that they are from God.

Believe me, if I could be a better witness that would be great. But I am instead a failure who needs the handouts of kindness from both people and from God to get by. So my message is simple. If I can find God, then so can anyone else. If you seek Him you will find Him. It's not a delusion and worthy of a serious investigation. You don't need me to be a better witness to look for God and see if He's real. Nor can I drag you to the right conclusion. But it is not a delusion. I can not emphasize that enough. He is very real, and active in the world around us.

...David f. I'm adding your book reference to my list of books to find. I'll hopefully be able to find it.

[I do not go around trying to convert people to my beliefs.] Come, come NNS you opening post was an total endorsement for god and Jesus.

An insurance salesman trying to flog his product couldn't do better.

"But He has left those He's called here to be a beacon of light for those who do not know Him."

"I hope you find Him if you haven't already. :)"

Now if that's not a sales pitch, what is?

To Paul. I was quoting part of David f's last comment. That he doesn't try to convert. My reply is that what he said then is a bunch of bull.

NNS: "More people like you to say Christianity is the face of evil, will eventually lead to the actions you say you oppose. Burning at the stake as opposed to trapped in a church and burned alive as the building is set on fire? What difference does it make?"

The above is an example of you excusing Christian atrocity. Both actions are wrong and are the result of religious bigotry. One is an example of Christian religious bigotry, and the other is an example of anti-Christian religious bigotry. Nobody should be deliberately burned alive either in a church or at the stake.Both actions are wrong. It does not excuse Christian evil to point out anti-Christian evil.

You equated Christian evil to anti-Christian evil and dismissed them both as being no diffeent. The more reasonable, more compassionate attutude would be to condemn both evils rather than posting that there is no difference between Christian and anti-Christian bigotry,

I think it better to treat people with kindness regardless of what delusions they have. That does not mean one has to accept and join in their delusions.

NNS also wrote: "If I can find God, then so can anyone else. If you seek Him you will find Him. It's not a delusion and worthy of a serious investigation."

Protesting that a delusion is not a delusion is what NNS keeps doing. The reason people believe in religion and other nonsense has been investigatedy. It is not an investigation when the conclusion is made before the investigation as you have done. You have already stated what you expect people to find. Serious investigations of religious belief have been made. Two books on the subject are:

Wilson, David Sloan, Darwin’s Cathedral, Chicago: U of Chicago, 2003

Boyer, Pascal, Religion Explained, NY: Perseus (Basic Books), 2001

the phenomenon of religious belief is a subject for serious study, and students of the subject follow the direction of the facts.