At the Census last year, 48,700 Indigenous people were recorded as university graduates across Australia. With last year's and this year's graduates, at about 2,500-2,700 each, that total is now around 54,000. At the next Census in 2021, the total may be close to sixty five thousand.

The great majority of graduates are in urban areas: participation from remote and rural areas seems to have been declining over the last ten years, while it has doubled in urban areas. Currently, perhaps one in less than four urban Indigenous women is a university graduate, one in seven men. The great majority, it would appear, graduated in mainstream study areas.

This year, perhaps eighteen thousand Indigenous students were enrolled around the country. Since 1990, around 140,000 Indigenous people have been enrolled at some time at a university. That's about one in four of all adults.

Urban people are very likely to stay in the cities. In the census, one can discern that some graduates may choose to work in remote communities but, from one Census to the next, it's clear that they may not stay out there. Nicolas Rothwell reviews a brilliant book in this weekend's Australian (pp. 18-20) which may explain why: that horrifically dysfunctional 'community' life quickly disillusions any outsiders, Black and White, about any contribution they can make - that, so it seems, 'community' has no real interest in improvement, just so long as the money keeps flowing, and to hell with all the pathological effects which arise from lives of deliberate futility. Yes, deliberate futility.

[TBC]

White Australia ended in 1970s and Indigenous from that era who live in bush communities may actually choose to be on country . They're adults. An uneducated living in cities for people with memories of part-bush life is not ideal and social security would probably still be needed. So the next generation is comfortable with education, which is a positive. That may be as good as it gets.

[continued]

Nick, Where to start ? I'll repeat slowly: currently 54,000 graduates; around 140,000 who have at some time been to university. No, not some aberration. Not flea-bites. No, it's not yet as good as it gets, it will get a lot better. By 2030, there will be more than 100,000 graduates, graduated in mainstream, degree- and PG-level awards, and working mostly in the cities. One in three adults.

And you brush that off with " .... an uneducated living in cities for people with memories of part-bush life... " It's 50-100 years since those days for many people, Nick. But I suppose there'll always be people who slag any Indigenous achievement in that sly, back-hand way.

Last year, I put up an OLO thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=7532&page=0

It mainly dealt with the possible proposals for a Referendum, and makes interesting reading now: it does seem as if the entire 'Recognition' push has exhausted itself, with nobody seriously doing anything in relation to connecting urban and remote populations, the cornerstone of much of the proposals of a year ago which dealt with treaties, a separate state, or a separate country.

Clearly, urban populations are going to remain urban: the Indigenous population may have risen by 20 % between Censuses (mainly due to re-identification), while remote populations declined, but the flow to the cities - and away from remote areas - is undeniable. So what do urban people really want, apart from the assertions of their 'leaders' ? My bet is that they are happy to continue working and living in urban centres, where most of them would have been born and raised. They’re certainly not interested in going out to remote or rural communities, and why should they be ?

Meanwhile, the remote populations sink further into morass of pointlessness, no-work, and rent-seeking. The two populations are far more apart than they were just ten years ago when my late dear wife wrote a key article on the subject of 'Two Indigenous Populations'.

[TBC]

[continued]

What can be done ? Who has to make the moves ? Presumably, if anything is to happen, it has to be the remote and rural populations who make the changes. Urban people have similar profiles to other Australians and are permanently embedded in the cities; not so rural and remote people. Is it too late for the welfare-dependent remote and rural populations to make any move ?

Of course, there is a welfare-dependent urban population as well, which tends to get overlooked. Either way, it seems as if there is one population which seeks its fortunes through education and work; and another population which seeks its fortunes through rent-seeking, demanding some form of payments just for being Indigenous (as I've heard of people declaring).

Rent-seeking ? It takes a few forms:

*. life-long welfare, with relaxed qualifying conditions for indigenous people;

*. Native Title, seen as a pathway to mineral development by non-Indigenous firms, and therefore to royalties - as everybody knows, all land has minerals under it;

*. constant payments for all of the pathological conditions of welfare-based living, funding for tens of thousands of non-productive positions for both Blacks and Whites - rent-seeking can be quite a gravy train;

*. constant funding for new projects which 'communities' are constantly trying to develop; pity there's not a single vegetable garden or orchard in Australia, but plenty of photo opps of such projects being initiated;

*. and of course, the big one: compensation for all of the incredibly evil and dreadful things which have been down by all Whites to all Blacks over the past 230 years.

Yeah, that should keep the 'rent' flowing. No need for education or, worse still, work.

Joe

Yes people who remember a part-bush life are 50+ years . Yes they won't get Distinction in Space Engineering . For them , community life is an adult choice . 1 in 4 graduates is good for today. The oldies can live their accustomed half-way cultures which in reality is reasonable in their sad history. Are you going to truck them to cities and compel orchard or vegie digging to earn their keep? And bus the kids to uni and push for more Indigenous role models in the faculties?
Yo is one hard boss man, massa .

Nick,

Can you bring yourself to write, that, all in all, 54,000 university graduates for an adult population of around 350-400,000 isn't too bad, and yes, there's a lot more to come, with annual growth at 8-10 %. Can you write that ?

So why do you go off talking about old people having to work on gardens ? Where on earth do you get that ? I can't imagine what your picture of current Aboriginal life might be; backward, and ignorant, yes, but take heart,Nick, from the fact that that's a very common attitude, even on the 'Left':

I was talking to a very nice lady, very virtuous and compassionate about the totally helpless condition of all Aboriginal people, and mentioned university graduates. A look of shock-horror came over her and I asked her how many graduates did she think there might be, rough ball-park figure. She obviously had never even imagined the possibility, and after a lot of hard thought, said, "Oh, maybe a few hundred." I told her and she has kept a strange distance ever since. The virtuous, after all, need helplessness in their victims. Sometimes people like that mention Charley Perkins. I usually say, yes, imagine fifty thousand Charley Perkinses.

My point about vegetable gardens was that, with around a million square miles at their disposal, much of it quite potentially productive, the small minority in remote settlements (which usually have sewage ponds, ergo, running water, ergo water for gardens) must, one would imagine, contain some able-bodied young people who could lift a shovel or fork, or move sprinklers, maybe just one a day each, and thereby grow vegetables, and eventually fruit orchards too, rather than whinge about how expensive they are. Yes, I know, in a small settlement, any bunny who actually does any work like that will quickly find his produce stripped by the non-workers. But let's not blame traditional culture or ethics.

Different notions of where people want to be in the future: work or welfare. I'm backing the workers (as a good ex-Marxist should). Who are you backing ?

Joe

You can read English but it comes out like something else , odd .
" So the next generation is comfortable with education, which is a positive."
I wrote that . It concludes on a positive note .
You asked where did the digging in gardens come from , then say it came from yourself. Weird.

Nick,

"So the next generation is comfortable with education, which is a positive. That may be as good as it gets."

No, Nick, it's going to get a whole lot better, I fervently hope. What are the trends ? Indigenous people are rapidly moving (or at least their population is rising rapidly) to the cities and away from remote and rural centres. Indigenous commencement numbers at universities have doubled in nine or ten years. Annual graduate numbers have doubled. Total graduate numbers have risen from barely nineteen thousand in 2015 to fifty four or more thousand now. And that rate of growth may not decline over the next generation. One hundred thousand graduates, one in four adults, is likely by 2030, barely 13 years away. One hundred thousand Charley Perkins.

Meanwhile, out in remote and rural (and outer suburban) settlements, the rent-seeking ideology is becoming more and more entrenched - in a way, the choice to try to go to university is a clear rejection of that BUT that appears to be happening far more in urban centres. So the choice of ideology is becoming more stark - ideology based on EITHER welfare and rent-seeking, OR education and work. And the elites, the 'leaders', suck up to the rent-seekers.

Which will prevail eventually ? I don't know.

Joe

In English , the present tense is now . Future tense is in the future . We know the present amount of uni grads but not the future until it becomes now.
Full Time Education in Wanaaring NSW 2840 -
https://www.seek.com.au/jobs-in-education-training/in-Wanaaring-NSW.../full-time
Aerospace engineering is an exciting field that involves the design, development, analysis, manufacture and maintenance of flight vehicles. It involves aerodynamics, aerostructures, avionics, propulsion, material science and computational simulation.Find your ideal degree at Engineering Education & Training in University of Wanaaring NSW 2840. Develop design and flight theory at Wanaaring Aerospace Launch Base one of western NSW's larger space ports.

Nick,

And it's the future that I'm focussing on. It gets brighter and brighter each year.

Indigenous Year 12 completions are now many times higher than in the year 2000. Those students tend to flow on to university education. Half of all undergraduates tend to go on to post-graduate study within five years.

As for your snide remark about Aerospace Engineering, I wouldn't be surprised if there are Indigenous students in those fields: in 2016, there were at least 428 Indigenous students enrolled in Engineering in all its forms around the country. 968 were enrolled in Natural and Physical Sciences. 17,728 were enrolled in award-level courses. Enrolment numbers are increasing consistently by 7-8 % per year. Do you want to sneer at that too ?

Any other backhanders ?

Joe

Full Time Education in Wanaaring .
This describes education that is full time . At Wanaaring . University. In English , this means the town of Wanaaring . Its educational services . At Wanaaring . The town:" a considerable collection of dwellings" . Ox English Dict for English . Language.

Nick,

Yes. Wanaaring, NSW, out from Bourke, towards Tibooburra ( I know an Aboriginal graduate from there) and Thargomindah (my grand-dad's birth-place, so he said; no, Queanbeyan, bloody old liar).

One can enrol at a university and do field work at such places.

What's . your . point ?

Or do you find it amazing that any Aboriginal people could be at university at all ? There's a word for that, Nick. Come on, put your foot in it. :)

Oops ! Fat fingers - when I wrote yesterday at 8:17:54 AM:

"Total graduate numbers have risen from barely nineteen thousand in 2015 to fifty four or more thousand now. And that rate of growth may not decline over the next generation."

I meant to type '2005' - "Total graduate numbers have risen from barely nineteen thousand in 2005 to fifty four or more thousand now. And that rate of growth may not decline over the next generation."

It seems that, as more Indigenous people graduate from university (I wish I could write so positively about TAFE), their children and relations will be more likely to go on to university over the next generation. The FIRST generation, from around 1980 to 1995, tended to be mature-aged, already with children of their own, who barely five or ten years later, also went on to university - the SECOND generation. Those students now have children approaching university age, so there is every likelihood that commencement numbers will keep rising strongly, by 8-10 % per year. That's a doubling every eight or nine years. We'll see :)

The THIRD generation of Indigenous students at university (from, say, 2010-2015) is likely to be much larger, even more urban, more likely than ever to enrol in straight, degree-level, mainstream (i.e. non-Indigenous-focussed) courses, and certainly more likely to go on to post-graduate study: those numbers have also doubled since 2006.

Indigenous people have had an urban component since the earliest days, not everybody is still living under a wurley. In fact, almost nobody is still living under a wurley. At a colony-wide school contest in 1816, organised by Governor Macquarie, the outstanding student was an Aboriginal girl, Maria Lock, who has many descendants still living in Sydney. She married a convict who was assigned to her, to work her lease of land.

Anything wrong with that, Nick ?

" constant funding for new projects which 'communities' are constantly trying to develop; pity there's not a single vegetable garden or orchard in Australia, but plenty of photo opps of such projects being initiated;

*. and of course, the big one: compensation for all of the incredibly evil and dreadful things which have been down by all Whites to all Blacks over the past 230 years.

Yeah, that should keep the 'rent' flowing. No need for education or, worse still, work."
-
It's you who did the slagging and putting words in my mouth .
Do you think Indigenous people are your property?

Nick,

No, they're nobody's property. And increasing numbers will break out of any chains you might like put on them to keep them in their place, and do what they damn-well like. Increasingly, that'll be going to uni.

And yes, I'll keep slagging the welfare-for-life mobs, they bring nothing but disgrace upon the Indigenous people as a whole. Would I ever lift a finger for them ? No.

Joe

So Nick, you are quite comfortable with innocent, intelligent children being condemned to live in uneducated squalor, suffering unimaginable abuse at times, just because their parents and grandparents are happy to exist as passive recipients of any money and facilities that come their way under the guise of " guilt money", gifted from people who had nothing to do with their circumstances.
These " cultural museums" are hot beds of ill health, early deaths, violence, abuse, addiction, illiteracy and total loss of hope for the future. Even the suggestion of people donating their labour for no pay in order to build structures like playgrounds for their children, on their own land, is viewed with antagonism and disdain. The concept of self help is unknown and unless the public teat is taken away, I doubt we will see any changes soon.

No point in me posting , you write for me . What else did I /you say?

It is good to see Aboriginal people finding their way forward to a brighter future.

Because the only way forward for black and white people in Australia, is the opportunity
to educate yourself and find a good job that pays well . That's the only way anyone can make a good life for themselves.

Ordinary white people are not handed land and money from the government they have to get educated and work to pay for everything they own from the time they leave school
to their retirement at 68years of age.

They are not privileged, they work, hard! for what they have. Something that seems to escape a lot of people around the world, who talk about white privilege, with scant regard to the fact, that white societies are hard working, achievement focused,societies.
That's why they are such successful societies. They don't sit around under a palm tree
and expect to achieve something in life. They are busy bee societies, with every bee
manning every station with the achieved education and skills required to to keep highly organised white societies running. It doesn't just happen by accident.
Its a process of education and working hard.

Aborigines are realising that handouts and welfare are a recipe for non-achievement and stagnation, which leads to excessive drinking and despair.
So good on the aboriginal people, achieving a university education. Now that is the right road to prosperity and happiness and self esteem. And it is the only way for white people to
gain these things as well. There is no easy way, unless you a born into the Rockerfella family but most are not.

Hi Cherful,

The Indigenous population is, on the whole, moving from the smaller remote 'communities' to larger remote 'communities', and from there others are moving to rural towns, from which others in turn are moving to the cities. It may take a generation for people arriving in the cities, for their children to go on to tertiary study, but as they say, it will happen.

Also, at the last Census, 37.5 % of all Indigenous households were either owned or being purchased by their occupiers, a total of 98,731 households. This is more than twice the number of homes either owned or being purchased back in the 2006 Census. Again, a doubling in ten years. like university participation and graduation numbers.

In 'communities', it isn't possible for occupiers to own or purchase the houses that they live n, given the land tenure arrangements there. Sooner or later, leasing arrangements will be thought of, to enable people to purchase - not the land that the house is on - but the house itself. But effectively now, people in 'communities', de facto, 'own' their own homes, so the real figure for home ownership, in law and de facto, is probably closer to 50 %.

What is starkly clear is that urban Indigenous people are not likely to ever contemplate a move out of the cities into the remote 'communities'. Any racist dream of that sort is, at least in the case of urban people, long dead. How long it will be a ghastly reality for 'community' people, generation after generation to come, is too horrible to contemplate, given their absence of alternatives.

Cheers,

Joe

I'm not sure where you guys get your facts and figures. You must read a lot of fiction. Firstly I don't see why it is anyone's business but the abo's when it comes to abo affairs. Secondly, stop quoting these ridiculous figures just to make your point sound more relevant. Let me set some terms of reference as it appears some of you have no idea. Firstly anyone who's mother and father are actually pure blood abo's, can call themselves abo's. Secondly if you are born in Australia, you're Australian. Now even a well known elder came out criticising what he called the 'wanabe's'. Another mis-noma. I can't slag off enough about this damn re-identification crap. I'll say it again, if one of your parents is not an abo then guess what? You're NOT an abo! You're an Aussie and at best you are a wanabe. So shut up with this rubbish PC re-identification crap, they're Australian. End of. As for the hand-outs, leg ups, preferential treatment, enough! There are enough of them abusing the system as it is. Going to uni? I could not care less if another 'Aussie' goes to uni or not. I'd be grateful if they just got off the dole, off their arse and did something. Anything. How do you think the rest of us feel? And the absolute arrogance of the 'stolen generation'. What a fu(*en liberty. Really? They were given the best care and upbringing ANY abo would ever see, and they have the arrogance to come back years later whinging about not being left in squalor and shite. Honestly you abo lovers are sick. You have embraced political correctness and all the lies it engenders and stands for. When you throw away your library of fictional reads, look around, with your eyes and mind open and you will see the real world not this BS one you prefer.

Alt Rave,

You can find the data in the ABS Censuses, Community Profiles:

http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/2016%20Census%20Community%20Profiles

and on the federal Education Department web-site, Student Data pages:

https://www.education.gov.au/student-data

Like most ranters, you seem confused: you write, quite reasonably, "I'd be grateful if they just got off the dole, off their arse and did something. ...." but then you slag the very people who do so. You accuse them of living on hand-outs, when it's most likely that the current Indigenous university students come from working homes which receive little or no 'hand-outs'.

You're not alone: I suspect it's a common attitude, even in people on the Virtuous Left, to put Indigenous matters out of their mind, and to get a bit irritated when they are reminded that indigenous people are all around them, here to stay, and many not doing too bad. That last point irks many: shouldn't they stay helpless and therefore to be pitied (or looked down on with contempt), but therefore out in the sticks somewhere 'in their country' - somewhere else ? Cities belong to whites, they think. No. The great majority of Indigenous people live in the lager urban areas, and pretty soon the majority will be living in the capital cities. Most will be working, not sitting on their arses, not receiving any hand-outs, and as likely to be after your job as anybody else. They don't need either your scorn or your pity, whether you're on the 'Left' or Right.

It's a dilemma for both Right and 'Left' - how can you look on people with contempt if they are doing well at university ? And, on the other hand, how can you fill your heart with pity for people if they are not actually helpless ? But it's a problem that both Right and 'Left' will have to get used to.

Joe

Loudmouth let me bring you back on track. The census is wrong because the wanabe's have dared call themselves abo's when they are clearly Aussies. So remove those outrageous lies and deceit, you are pushing mis-information, lies even. I doubt there is even ONE actual abo going to uni. No wait I won't say that because in this pathetic PC time we are in there just might be one to use as the mainstay of some point someone is attempting to make. Loud mouth are you going out of your way to look stupid or does it come naturally? You bag me for saying that they come off the dole and then receive hand outs. Do you not see the flaw in your argument? As for them coming from working families, yes, Aussie families not abo families. Now lets try this again. Do some actual research, throw anything that has to do with wanabees, mixed parentage in the bin and start again with words like 'Aussies'. You already know the answers but you avoid the truth because it will crush your point. I don't have the current numbers of actual abo's but memory leans towards only a few thousand, and I know that the number of so called abo's going to uni is nothing like what you say. In fact it is closer to nothing.

Alt Rave,

Aboriginal people born in Australia are Aussies. It's possible to be both, in fact difficult not to be. There will be around nineteen thousand Indigenous Australian going to university next year, and maybe three thousand graduates, kicking the total up to about 57,000.

I suppose, in your universe, 'southern' Aboriginal people, and Aboriginal people with some non-Aboriginal ancestry, are thereby not Aboriginal. Perhaps then you might call them 'White' ? No ? You must regret not being king. Like it or not, people who, all their lives, have been regarded as 'not White', who have had an Aboriginal (i.e. 'not White') parent all their lives, who have been considered Aboriginal by family, friends, neighbours, schools, police, etc. all their lives, are Aboriginal - people who, in all honesty and sincerity, have regarded themselves as 'Aboriginal' with question, since birth. It may not be the corroboree and Didg sort of Aboriginal of 'Leftist' romantic thinking (or Rightist racist thinking, which is eerily similar), but something quite distinctly 'not White' AND 'not traditional', something developed in many forms across the country, over the last couple of hundred years.

And yes, as well, there would be many Aboriginal people, people who you, in your judgment, consider would be Aboriginal, who are university students, and graduates, and there have been for decades.

Since you are not king just yet, you might have to put up with all that.

Joe

No loudmouth, you have to put up or shut up! You raving on about abo's with mixed parents are still abo's. THEY ARE NOT! Stop trying to push a lie. Do you understand what it means to have mixed parents? You cannot be an abo if you are not of pure blood. Gee's man you lot just will not see the truth. Try as you will to win your point. I have previously explained this fact and it goes something like this. Dutch mother, Aussie father, their child is born in Australia, it is an Aussie. Abo mother, abo father, their child is an abo Aussie. Dutch mother, abo father, their child is an Aussie. You and you camp making up these titles because it suites your agenda is not going to fool anyone. As is the case today, technology has given us products that look and feel just like wood. Guess what? It's not wood! So stop pushing this PC BS and start quoting truths and facts. Now go and look up how many real and actual abo's are currently left in Australia. When your finished look up the Elder who went on various media interviews denigrating, (as he called them) the wanabee's and stop calling themselves abo's and collecting benefits as their main motivation. This was an Elder, not me or some whitey. Now there's a good boy I've given you plenty to work with, so when I next hear from you it will be to explain further and in more detail what I have said here.

Dear Loudmouth,

Even though you are dealing with a child spawned from your side of politics I do feel a little sorry for you.

Comprehension isn't one of his strong suits I'm afraid. What is disturbing is the cult like mentality which I am seeing more and more of. He sure as heck a paid up ticket holder of alt-right and he seems intent on riding that little caboose all the way to the end.

Good luck.

Loudmouth all I read is, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. We're still waiting for your imaginary explanation as to your reasoning about mixed parents, and why you cannot just pick and choose your nationality. I'd love to see what their passports say. You can keep telling stories about what YOU think things should be. I'm telling you what they are. You don't want to hear it. TOO BAD! You're wrong. Don't dig yourself in deeper, stop while your back is against the wall and not through it. Again tell us how many abo's (both parents are abo's) are going or have gone to uni? Not half, quarter, sixteenth or even forty third cast, but actual, legally classified, abo's. Waiting, tick, tick tick, tick,........................................

Alt Rave,

Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian. They may not be able to choose their ancestry, but people tend to identify with at least of their parents, usually the mother. I'm sure that's similar to pretty much every other identity group in Australia, Italians, Sikhs, Samoans, you name it: people who have, all their lives, believed that they have inherited a social and cultural identity as well as being Australian. Indigenous people, like other Australians, have Australian passports, and they have a non-British identity which they cling to, as much as those of of Irish or Scottish or English descent do - although it's much easier for British-Ancestry Australians to believe that they are 'just Australian, since they are in the great majority.

As for how many 'legally classified' Indigenous people who have gone to university ? Maybe 150,000. After all, it's not up to you or anybody else to dictate who is, and who isn't, Indigenous - or Australian, for that matter. People inherit their social and cultural identity, and choose whether or not to aspire to go to university, or whatever other life-course they wish. Thankfully, there are no bars on Indigenous people going to university. They're Australians, after all.

Why does it upset you so much ? Is it that you can't believe that Indigenous people SHOULD go to university ? Is it that you believe they CAN'T, if they are genuinely Indigenous ? You share that prejudice with many on the Virtuous Left, by the way, although they may frame it in terms of 'losing their culture'.

Steele,

Since I think of myself, and always will, as being on a tiny branch of the 'Left', a 'Left' of one it seems, that was a bit hurtful to lump me in with an oaf like Alt Rave. Disagreement is not necessarily hostility.

Joe

Loudmouth, again your opinions. To answer your question 'why does it upset me so much'? Because I can't stand abuse, con-men, lies, shall I go on. Because it is dis-ingenuous of those people to wrongfully categorise themselves as a particular race or creed for personal and selfish gain. When a well respected Elder comes out and publicly denounces these people as 'wanabees' and tells them to stop. I think I have a pretty good ally. And on the subject of 'identity'. Not relevant. As for 'legally classified'? What are you referring to? If you are referring to a person then you will have to look at their passport. I don't know of a passport with 'aborigine' as a nationality. However, what it will say is 'Australian'! The word abo is described as, 'a person, animal or plant that has been in a country or region from earliest times'. Notice how it does not say they 'come' from that country, but 'have been' in a country from earliest times. So, in the future we will also be Australian Aborigines. To recap; If we are born here, we are Australian. If both our parents are abo's we are still Australian, but with the caveat of being Aboriginal Australian. If one of your parents is not Aussie, then your are just plain, Australian, but partly abo. Another way of looking at it is, just remember when you asked one of your friends about their backgrounds, they would have said my mother was from X and my father was from Y but I was born here so I am Aussie. They don't say, my mother was from X but because I have an agenda I am calling myself X and I choose to ignore that I was born in Australia, because it doesn't suite me. Just to put that last nail in the coffin. Did you know that if you are born on a ship, you will take on the nationality of the country the ship is registered in?

Alt Raver,

Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian. There are no Aboriginal passports, Aboriginal people go overseas on Australian passports, because they are Australian. Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian. Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian. Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian. Identity is not nationality. People can be Aboriginal and Australian.

Joe

So, loudmouth, you've made my point. I don't care what you identify with or what you think your identity is, that is a word which has been conveniently taken by the abo's to justify their agenda. MONEY! You have echoed my points by trying to be smart and repeating 'people can be abo's and aussie's', I already told YOU that earlier in this so called discussion. Everyone can see through this 'Identity' crap. I and millions of others aren't buying it. You can 'identify' as much as you like. Ok let's see how many of these con-men will still give a flying flee about their 'identity' if we cut off the supply of money and benefits. Abo's are dis-liked because of the abuses the rest of Australians have had to tolerate from them. I don't care who someone is but when they lie, cheat and steal I will expose them for what they are. You must be a wanabee to be defending this kind of con and at such a large scale at that. You can shove your identity angle, it doesn't wash. Just to ensure YOU get the point, identity is irrelevant, identity is irrelevant, identity is irrelevant, identity is irrelevant,....................................................

Alt Rave,

So are you suggesting that Aboriginal people can't be both Aboriginal and Australian, or shouldn't be ? Or are you suggesting that Aboriginality is some sort of fiction, a way to get money from governments ? That whoever claims to be Aboriginal, is just lying, cheating and stealing ? Unless they are of the full descent ? And that there is no such thing as identity ?

IF you are suggesting that Indigenous people only claim to be so in order to get benefits, I would suggest that only people in need of benefits should get them, regardless: benefits should be distributed on the basis of need. But that really is another issue. Indigenous people are still Indigenous, rich or poor, affluent or in need. Or, in your view, they don't really exist, they shouldn't identify as such ? What would you propose in order to stop Indigenous people from identifying as Indigenous, IF you were the Absolute Ruler ? Should such people be fined or jailed, or what ? Stop holding back, Alt Rave.

Joe

Loudmouth, what should we do with such people? You ask indirectly? We should ignore them. If they decide they want to 'identify' with a particular tree, they are more than welcome to do so. But don't expect me to believe you just because a tree once fell on your head and you decided to 'identify' yourself to trees. It really does annoy me and many others when someone finds a way of getting away with something at the expense of others and the others are powerless to right the wrong. You can 'identify' the shite out of whatever you like, as long as they admit that they are Australian and have no more rights over other Australians. When you can admit that and relinquish all the money and benefits they all enjoy, then I will listen and even accept your argument about 'identity'. Until then all the non-authentic abo's calling themselves abo's must be challenged and brought to task for their lying. As I have already said an Elder has already warned these people and it was he who called them wanabees. Now are you going to argue with a very high standing Elder? I don't think so. So we don't accept this 'identity' angle and anyone who is not a 'pure blood' abo is not an abo! So all you quarter, half, fifty three cast, piss off do as YOUR Elder has stated and stop ripping the system off, or is it , stop ripping us off.

Alt Rave,

So are you saying that Indigenous people can identify as Indigenous if they like ? No fees, no jailing ? So how is it any of your business then, apart from having a limited opinion on the matter ?

And yes, Indigenous people can identify as Indigenous AND be Australian by nationality. You are agreeing with that ? Well, at least, we've got somewhere.

Joe

No loudmouth, we are not in agreement at all. I'll say it again, if you are of mixed parentage, you are not an abo! Your 'identity' means nothing! It is a word, that's all. The abo's went looking for a way to con money out of the system/us, and gain sympathy for their cause and so thought this word is as vague as it gets so we can use it and no one will question us. They figured, all they have to do, even if their as white as an albino, is to say that I have abo blood, fifteen generations ago, therefore I can 'identify' as being an abo? You moron, what about the fifteen other nationalities 'in your blood' along the way? Oh, wait no can't mention any of them because I can't scam money and benefits and preferential treatment. Where-as by saying I 'identify' with my abo ancestor and BINGO! I'm in. You still have not answered my question about the Elder calling these many casts, wanabees. Wanna have a go at answering that one. I haven't chased it up again but now I think I'll give it a go and try to find it on You Tube. Oh and if you reply, you'd better answer my questions or I will bag you and your cred. Just to be clear.

Alt Rave,

Yes, of course, there are non-Indigenous people who manage to claim Indigenous status (identity) in order to gain benefits - I suspect quite a few in top management positions. And yes, there are people who have 'discovered' that they have Indigenous ancestry relatively late in life, i.e. in the teens and beyond: if I were Absolute Ruler, I would require them to forgo any special benefits, such aster re, for an equal length of time, while they did an 'apprenticeship' n Indigeneity. But I'm not, and neither are you, thankfully.

As for your Elder, he, like you and I, has opinions which should be considered, but they're just his opinions, he may have no greater authority to decide who is, and who isn't, Indigenous than you or I, subject to the exceptions in that first paragraph.

One problem with your neat, mathematical differentiation of who is, and who isn't, Indigenous, apart from the obvious point that it's really none of your business, is that Indigenous people - particularly in the 'south', i.e. the settled areas rather than the pastoral and unusable areas of Australia, they may not know any non-Indigenous relations, or forebears: inter-mixing may have occurred many generations ago, and Indigenous mixed-ancestry people have been inter-marrying with other Indigenous mixed-ancestry ever since, and building little worlds of similarly Indigenous people. That may be changing rapidly these days, with 90 % of Indigenous people in urban, mainly metropolitan areas, marrying non-Indigenous people.

So, even now, the great majority of people who 'southern' Indigenous people mix with and know about, are similarly Indigenous. And they are aware of Johnnie-come-latelys and phony Blackfellas, many of whom rely on the 'Stolen Generation' narrative to insert themselves into Indigenous affairs. How many proven cases of SG so far ? One.

[TBC]

[continued]

Older Indigenous people usually have a fairly detailed knowledge of their genealogy and, given that people are usually very interested in linking to any stranger by identifying genealogical connections, they are usually quite aware of who they CAN'T place. Yes, many organisations would 'sign anybody up' who walks through the door. But none of that detracts from the genuinely Indigenous people, it only highlights the nefarious activities of non-Indigenous people looking for an easy way into positions and benefits, as they see them.

I hope this answers your questions.

Joe

No loudmouth don't you think I already knew all this? Your stance is maligned by one of several flaws, that being. If you are 1/16th abo, why do you want to ignore the other 15 ancestors in your past? Because they're not cool (apparently it's cool to call yourself an abo) and they don't have access to all this money and benefits. Look your never going to accept my arguments so let's just leave it at that. I have made my points, you have refused to consider them, so be it.