ALTRAV,

At no point have I assumed a position to dictate anything to anyone. You are making that up.

<<I choose to go with the accepted and traditional European, Christian standards …>>

As is your prerogative. The majority, it appears, choose otherwise (depending on what it is exactly that you’re talking about).

<<If there is to be a culture change it has to be based on a much greater premise than a few queers 'feeling uncomfortable' about how they were created.>>

Which culture change are you referring to exactly? Mere tolerance? Equal treatment? Tolerance and equality benefit everyone. I have never read a study that showed an inverse correlation between tolerance/equality and societal health.

<<You and your mates have decided to use words like, culture, gender and tradition to enforce your selfish SSM agenda.>>

How is our use of those words incorrect? And how is same-sex marriage selfish?

<<As for transsexuals, how arrogant of YOU to presume also to know anything about them and question Josephus on his comment/theory.>>

I am only repeating what they say and what the research says. I am presuming nothing. And since when I have not been able to question another’s claims? This is a debating site, after all. How arrogant of you to presume to tell me who I can and cannot question.

<<So now you are also an expert and a spokesman for the queers and the gender debate.>>

No, I’m not and expert or a spokesperson. Nor have I claimed to be. Some of my academic qualifications (sociology and psychology), however, do touch on these areas. So, I know a thing or two about them.

<<Yes there has always been an objective standard on marriage …>>

Really?! So, you think you can objectively define how marriage should be? Please, go right ahead!

<<And if you want proof of that statement I will quite happily and in fact eagerly direct you to the USA Massachusetts social disaster that is occurring as we speak.>>

Yeah, I’ve read that. Most of the claims are rubbish, blown out of proportion, or describe perfectly reasonable measures.

ALTRAV,

"....I choose to go with the accepted and traditional European, Christian standards as laid down through history."

You're on shaky ground there;
throughout European history, fathers have dictated who their daughters, particularly, should marry and to a lesser extent the sons.
We are seeing a return, in a way, to the accepted European peasant attitude to marriage where marriage did not take place until the woman had proved that she was fertile; there was no old age pension and offspring were the only way that most people could (hopefully) provide for themselves in old age.

Only the most optimistic married before there was a child on the way.
Most marriages until around the late 1500s were private contracts between the families concerned.
In my own ancestral villages in England, church records are very sketchy or do not exist before 1630.

Foxy,
Are woman finding gender fluidity later in life or is it because their new relationships more fulfilling? Foxy claims it is a change in gender, while the women I know who have paired up with another woman have not changed one iota, just found a close friend.

Does gender fluidity have anything to do with how one views their genitalia? If not; why the unnatural use of hormones and surgery to change one's genitalia? All this transitioning taught in Victorian schools to growing youth discovering their sexuality by programmes developed by sex activist Roz Ward.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/roz-ward-i-will-never-give-up-fighting-for-a-more-free-and-joyful-world

All this freedom and joy only exists in Roz Wards mind as it has caused unrest in teenage minds and bondage to her views.

Be thankful that we are not in France,
there, a train is masculine but the station is feminine and the railway is masculine but the thundering great steam locomotives were feminine.

Les Français semblent être un peu confus ou déroutant.

Dear Josephus,

Foxy is not claiming anything actually.
She is merely citing from an article
in a woman'd magazine - from the experiences
given by the women involved and from the
recent psychological research done both
here and in the US.

In short, as stated in my earlier post women
are more open to gender fluidity, especially
as they become older. In short, there is now
evidence that supports a growing trend to late
in life change around sexual preference for women,
many of whom have had children, marriages, and
in fact lived whole other lives.

In any case - if you want to learn more - you can
buy this issue of The Australian Women's Weekly
(January 2018) at your nearest newsagent and read
the entire article for yourself.

Is Mise, where am I on shaky ground? I actually don't know from trying to read my post.

Also these examples of marriage in the 1500 and 1600s, were they between heterosexual couples?

I really would like to know the meaning of the railway references you made. If I am on the right 'track', is there not a mention of the train being the man and obviously the woman being the tunnel? HEH,HEH.