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The Forum > General Discussion > Should 4 wheel drive owners have to have an extra specialised test before driving one?

Should 4 wheel drive owners have to have an extra specialised test before driving one?

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With the tragic loss two children's lives in Sydney today isn't it time to ask some tough questions about 4wds?

Does the average driver have the skills to drive a four wheel drive?

I am on the roads most days and 4wdrivers are simply bad drivers!... Sorry if that offends but that may only offend because you are one of them.

These vehicles are more like a truck than a car and here are some of the things I notice.

1. Many 4wders have bull bars fitted which make the vehicle twice as dangerous to both anyone they may collide with and the people in the 4wd itself! These bars defeat the concept of crumple zones and make the vehicles far more lethal!

2. Most 4wders have trouble staying in their lane due to the wider vehicles.

3. Many drivers of 4wds drive way too fast even though their vehicles stopping distance is much longer than a traditional sedan.

4. Many people who drive 4wds are older people with diminished driving skills - Are they too old to be in control of such a vehicle? Many haven't sat driving tests for 30 plus years so probably aren't aware of the modern road rules.

5. Many tradies who drive 4wds drive way too quickly and too erratically to ever be allowed to drive one in my book. You often see them driving dangerously on freeways.

6. 4wds diminish the ability of other vehicles to see and be seen due to their extra height and width thereby endangering the smaller vehicles.

7. The weight of 4wds mean that in a collision much of the force from the 4 wheel drive is shunted into the other smaller vehicle.

8. It is more likely for a 4wd driver to try to cross a flooded stream despite the fact that their extra sized tyres and higher profile means they shouldn't try to cross either.

Here, whilst you stew in your juices over what is a reasonable set of statements and questions read this.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/4wd-users-much-more-dangerous/2006/07/09/1152383614616.html

It's time these problems were addressed.
Posted by Opinionated2, Tuesday, 7 November 2017 10:27:00 PM
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It doesn't matter. It's not going to happen, just like your thoughts on dual citizen politicians paying back money earned or awarded. I think 4WDs should be banned altogether, but that's not going to happen either.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:06:54 AM
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Forgot. You really are a totalitarian, albeit an impotent one.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:08:48 AM
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Most of that rant Opinionated2, is a pile of garbage.

1/ Experience in the bush totally disproves the rubbish about crumple zones being safer or an advantage. This is just greenie bulldust, experience proves otherwise.

2/ I have never noticed any difference in lane discipline with 4WDs, but have with small hatch drivers.

3/ Out here we find 4WD drivers are the slowest, particularly tradies, more mobile chicane than speedsters.

4/ Again garbage. More are young mothers, which may be the problem.

5/ See 3 above.

6/ Yep a real pain, just like vans, people movers, & those small hatches with ridiculously high rear bodywork.

7/ Weight comes with size, not number of driven wheels.

8/ nothing to do with type of vehicle, but perhaps to do with place of abode.

Many people are stuck with 4WDs because of towing requirements & laws.

Your reference was the usual garbage expected in that rag, produced by academic twits.

I suggest you go try to get a life, & stop fretting that other people don’t want to be like you.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:41:05 AM
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Dear OP2,

Thank You for this discussion. For many years there have
been complaints about 4WDs. They are designed for rural
areas and should be banned in cities. Until major disasters
continue to happen the authorities will not do anything about
these vehicles. I invite all objectors to not only post on
this forum but to complain to your MPs and local councils.

What you've written is spot on and something should have been
done years ago. Would we accept military vehicles driving on
our streets? And in Melbourne, they are called "Toorak tractors"
it's supposedly a "prestigious" thing to drive.

I'm not sure of the history of these vehicles but I recall
that they were initially designed as military vehicles and later
for use by farmers. I believe the originators were "range-rovers"
in the UK.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:52:05 AM
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Condolences to all.

Including to that poor woman, the driver, whose human error, a moment of inattention, has changed many lives forever, including her own.

Hoping for a speedy return to health for all affected.
Posted by leoj, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:52:19 AM
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Not that it is relevant to this tragic event, but a Kluger is NOT a 'four wheel drive'. And journalists should eschew the use of negative stereotypes to sensationalise. This was a dreadful accident attributable to human error. It should remind us all to be more mindful and in the present when operating a vehicle.
Posted by leoj, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 10:00:07 AM
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Foxy,

Are you deliberately way off beam or is it something else?

"They are designed for rural areas and should be banned in cities"
What about all the small all wheel drive cars?

"Would we accept military vehicles driving on
our streets?"
Yes, we would and do, military vehicles are driven on the public roads every day.

"I'm not sure of the history of these vehicles but I recall
that they were initially designed as military vehicles and later
for use by farmers. I believe the originators were "range-rovers"
in the UK."
They were designed for farmers and were called 'Land Rovers' they were later used by the UK military and others,
Predating the LandRovers were the US 'Jeeps'
of WWII but four-wheel drive vehicles have been around since the very early days of the self-propelled vehicle.

From Wikipedia,
"In 1893, before the establishment of a modern automotive industry in Britain, English engineer Bramah Joseph Diplock patented a four-wheel-drive system for a steam-powered traction engine,[13] including four-wheel steering and three differentials, which was subsequently built. The development also incorporated Bramah's Pedrail wheel system in what was one of the first four-wheel-drive automobiles to display an intentional ability to travel on challenging road surfaces".

Get over it, all you anti 4x4s, next you'll be wanting to ban big trucks because they are wide, high and have big non-crumple front ends and those terrifying bumper bars!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 10:18:29 AM
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Jealous Foxy would ban the new Subaru XV, in fact all Subarus and many other cars on the road.

Greens would have everyone living in caves and forget the wheel, because those imported animals would have to go as well.

The real issue here is the shameful ambulance-chasing and worse, while the shock of loss is so raw.
Posted by leoj, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 11:03:04 AM
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There are accidents where the wrong pedal is pushed when trying to stop. A Toyota landcruiser has 200 kW , 650 Nm power. A Camry has 133kW, 235 Nm. Oh what a feeling with twice the wall-smashing status .

"The pickup in question is named Jack , all-wheel drive based on a Mack Granite model and is powered by a 13-liter Mack MP8 engine providing 596 kW and 3835 Nm ".
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 11:30:38 AM
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Some "human error", leoj. How could anyone fit to drive be capable of that carnage?
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 11:53:51 AM
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I see that instead of a discussion some are again
stooping to personal attacks - "jealous foxy"
indeed. Of what exactly should I be jealous?
I am chauffeured everywhere in a Holden Statesman.
I can no longer drive (because of injuries
sustained earlier as a result of a fall). But when
I did drive I found that as OP2 pointed out - I
could not see (or be seen) behind these monstrosities
on the road.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 12:21:30 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

I detect from your post that you feel that my comments
are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine or
an ashtray on a motorcycle. But that's all right.
I've got you to correct me.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 12:27:33 PM
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Hi Foxy,

This thread will show very quickly who the 4wd drivers are...

All rationality will jump out of their heads, if it was there in the first place, and they will attack because they are probably one of the bad drivers...

Most 4wd drivers think they are invincible in their Toorak tractors and drive as if they own the roads.

It's a shame that these people can't be honest even with themselves.

So who here drives a 4wd and does your 4wd have bull bars?

I don't, I chose not to have one!

:)
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 12:29:35 PM
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Foxy, 'Holden Statesman'

Likely higher displacement engine, and mass comparable with Kluger, Hyundai Sante Fe, Kia Sorento, Mazda CX-9 and Nissan Pathfinder to name a few.
Posted by leoj, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 12:30:51 PM
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I sure hit nerves with Hasbeen and ttbn... I wonder why they are so wrong in what they claim...

Do you guys drive 4wds and are you in the too old to drive one stage of life?...lol

Your posts prove that all rationality goes out the window when people dare to question the vehicles you drive and your competence to drive one...

So do you drive a 4wd and do you have bull bars?

Trust a hasbeen to not understand how crumple zones do work... That is why the manufacturers have them!
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 12:38:01 PM
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Statesman 147 Kw 304 Nm
Kluger 202 Kw 337 Nm
The 4 wheel and all wheel began as rough road or off-road and farm vehicles . Throw a crowbar and fence- wire in , call dog and put rubber on the rocks. Or plough a straight furrow through fresh food people and timber class-room.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:12:28 PM
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You sure have the right name opinionated, all opinion, & wish to dictate to others, despite not having a single clue.

Never owned a 4WD in my life, or a bull bar, but as a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering I have more idea of the bull dust involved in auto rulemaking by governments. I have had to own a few big heavy cars to tow with, effectively by government decree, but have no use for the added mechanical complication of 4WD systems.

Today I prefer to drive little 2 seater convertibles, mostly quite old, & much more pleasant than modern front drive horrible hatches.

That does not mean that, like you, I would deny those who need such things the use of them. A daughter had to drive a big 4WD crew cab ute for a couple of years, as they needed it, & could not afford another car as well. She hated it, & was very glad to get rid of it.

A mates wife drives a big front drive only SUV. Horrible things to my mind, but she likes the high driving position, tougher high profile tyres, & ground clearance for out of town driving, & the ability to carry her big protective dog with her. I suppose you would want her to stop at the edge of the suburbs & walk to the shops.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:45:02 PM
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Hasbeen
"deny.. dictate.. stop.. "

"Should 4 wheel drive owners have to have an extra specialised test before driving one?..With the tragic loss two children's lives in Sydney today isn't it time to ask some tough questions about 4wds?
..Does the average driver have the skills to drive a four wheel drive? "

Are you denying, dictating and stopping the questions ?
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 2:52:32 PM
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//Should 4 wheel drive owners have to have an extra specialised test before driving one?//

In my experience, people who can drive a 4WD are usually better drivers. Mind you, almost all of those are people who understand what 4WD's are for: unsealed roads. Anybody who thinks they need a 4WD in a city is a danger not because they are poor drivers, but because they are morons.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 2:58:50 PM
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I am surprised that some here would diminish a driver's responsibility to allocate some blame to the vehicle. Police do check the vehicle systems to ensure brakes etc worked.

Driving is a complex activity that requires what is described as 'System 2' thinking, which means you cannot have any distraction and must never lapse into 'automatic'. That is the science (Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman).

Engineers have worked wonders to make vehicles and roads safer. We have to be at our best too, all of the time. That takes singular concentration. Hopefully my next car will have the new collision avoidance technology to give me that extra edge.
Posted by leoj, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 3:04:15 PM
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I second Hasbeen's first sentence. I have already opined that Op2 is a frustrated totalitarian, and the more he tells other people what they should do, the more he sounds like the immature, unworldly little teenager he probably is.

I have never owned a 4WD either. I currently drive a 9 year old Toyota Corolla, bought new, which will probably see me out. I said that I would like to see 4WDs banned, but that was half joking as I was trying to show sonny boy that, what we think is not necessarily going to happen just because we do think that way. Crusaders on anything are usually half-mad (at least), eventually ignored, and disappear up their own bums with their obsessions.

4WDs are here to stay, and no whining and mewling from the likes of Op2 is going to change that.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 3:15:53 PM
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Let's add a little logic to the debate...

All I asked was should 4x4 drivers have an extra specialised test before they can drive on our roads!

At the moment a person who has driven a Mini Minor for years can buy any size 4x4 and immediately drive it on our roads... Do you really think they have the skills necessary?

Shouldn't they require extra training?

Does 4x4 stop as quickly as a mini minor?

Does a 4x4 take up the same road space as a mini minor.

Does a 4x4 have a higher centre of gravity than a mini minor?

To argue that a person can just jump in and drive a 4x4 and be safe is ridiculous.

Pretending that a driver has the same capabilities in a mini minor and a 4x4 puts others at risk on the roads.

So how many here with 4x4's have bull bars?

Have you ever hit a bull? A cow? A kangaroo?

How much country driving do your really do?

If you haven't hit a bull or other large animal are your bull bars just in case bars? Do you also carry a canoe just in case you drive into a river?

For our resident engineer... In exactly the same scenario of a 4x4 driving at 30klm, if a person is hit by a 4x4 are the risks to that person for permanent injury or death greater when hit by bull bars or a vehicle with crumple zones and plastic parts designed to cushion collisions?

Are the risks to that person for permanent injury or death greater greater being hit by a 4x4 than a sedan?

Your Emotional questions Hasbeen seem a bit weird when the original post was should these drivers of 4x4 have more training... Is extra training and added skills a communist plot or something...

Did you study for your degree... So you aren't against upskilling and training then... Did you pass exams for your degree... Oh so you aren't against testing knowledge and skills then?

No-one is denying anyone anything - Sorry what was your point again?...lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 3:58:23 PM
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Poor ttbn... He got destroyed on another thread and now he is crying crocodile tears that is why he is attacking me calling me such things as a totalitarian.

Hopefully he will stop crying and talk reasonably from now on...

His true opinion on this subject "I think 4WDs should be banned" Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 9:06:54 AM

I never said they should be banned!
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 4:06:41 PM
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"At the moment a person who has driven a Mini Minor for years can buy any size 4x4 and immediately drive it on our roads... Do you really think they have the skills necessary?"

At the moment a person who has driven a Mini Minor for years can buy any size rear wheel drive and immediately drive it on our roads... Do you really think they have the skills necessary?

Rear end slide anyone?

There are probably more 4x4 small cars on the road than large ones.

Foxy,

You mention the Statesman, I saw a Statesman lunge through a gate when it was put into gear, the driver didn't have his foot on the brake.
Later automatic cars require one to put the foot brake on before a gear can be selected.
I own and drive a Statesman, wonderful car but not safe by modern standards.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 4:18:26 PM
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ttbn
"what we think is not necessarily going to happen just because we do think that way."
Absolutely marvellous darling. We don't want any more white supremacist xenophobia do we , sweetie?
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 4:20:35 PM
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Foxy,

"But when I did drive I found that as OP2 pointed out - I
could not see (or be seen) behind these monstrosities
on the road."

Ever hear of this advice to novice drivers when behind a bigger vehicle?

"If you can't see his mirrors he can't see you".

Obviously, by your own admission, you have been driving in an unsafe manner.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 4:24:27 PM
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That's when riding a motor bike behind a semi . Don't get semis in Woolworths car park.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 5:17:51 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Thanks for that.

Our Holden Statesman is a beautiful car. We bought
it second hand from a farmer who used it only for "special
occasions". - my husband loves driving it.
As I did prior to my fall. Of course I would
prefer a ferrari or a classic merc - but the
Statesman has served us well. I miss the Le Mans
Pontiac I had in Los Angeles.

As far as driving unsafely?- wrong. My record speaks
for itself. Never had an accident or a ticket.
I've driven on the freeways in Los Angeles - where
we lived and worked for ten years. I've driven in San Francisco,
as well as Europe. I am a very careful
driver but since returning to Melbourne I was always
extra careful around 4WDs because to date
they've proven to be a road hazard.

How do you
feel, (I presume you're a 4WD driver) behind a bus?
Does that make you an unsafe driver or more careful?
Buses need to be on our roads. 4WDs don't. They are
a menace in city traffic. They've not been designed
for the city. That's all I'm saying. And we should all
be concerned about safety issues on the road.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 5:30:30 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Is Mise,

I forgot to add that having driven overseas, especially
in North America, I found on
my return that compared to North American drivers
the ones on our roads in this country are more of a
hazard. So I can fully understand your concerns about
road safety.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 5:39:33 PM
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What a dunce you are, Op2. Crocodile tears are those shed insincerely by someone pretending sympathy. Just what grade are you in at school that you don't know that? You really are a silly little person.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 6:30:31 PM
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Nick the Nut,

White supremacist xenophobia? Were you dropped on your head as a child?
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 6:35:44 PM
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I think 4WD's are wonderful....just think what they do for the economy.
Why only the other day I saw a 4WD owner and her children open their doors and restyle the vehicles on either side of them in a supermarket car park.
These vehicles are responsible for the increased work being done in panel shops across the nation...just think what that does for the economy as a whole.
Buy a new car and the 4WD owners will seemingly exercise physical interest in the paint work of your latest pride and joy. Where else can you get that sort of attention
How could anyone say 4WD owners are incompetent, why I've seen them exercise due diligence in the way they steer their vehicles and make sure those in their near vicinity get a momento of their presence before barrelling off with their precious darlings inside.
My hat is off to those men who insist that their family needs a 4WD for reasons of safety and then hand it over to their spouse who valiantly attempts to drive something akin to a truck on a daily basis when she really wanted a sedate sedan she could control instead of driving like uncontrolled flatulence.
Now I'm talking about Queensland drivers so I can't say what it's like in the other states but I'd be surprised if the supermarket mom's were any different
Posted by ilmessaggio, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 7:24:44 PM
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.....and the next vehicle I get is going to be a second hand armoured personnel carrier.....'cos payback is coming to a supermarket near you
Posted by ilmessaggio, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 7:27:27 PM
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....the APC is a little higher than a 4WD and deadly on panels and paintwork....so the economy can fare better
Posted by ilmessaggio, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 7:29:17 PM
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I hate it when the buggers sit on your tail with their piercing new headlight globes at eye height... grrrr
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 7:30:11 PM
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Foxt,

You said that the driver of a 4x4 can't see you, if he can't then you are too close, as I said before it's basic driving skill to position one's self where one can see the mirrors of the vehicle ahead.

You do not seem to realize that many small cars are 4 wheel drive; are you going to kick some Mazdas off the road because they are 4x4s?
https://www.groovemazda.com/blogs/852/new-mazdas/introducing-the-best-mazda-models-with-awd/

I don't drive a 4x4, I drive a Statesman, a Commodore (better and safer car) and a Toyota Yaris (better and safer than either of the others),
All of them, along with 99.9% of modern cars share the unsafe feature of having the brake pedal to the left of the accelerator.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 7:34:47 PM
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ttbn wrote :

"White supremacist xenophobia? Were you dropped on your head as a child?"
-

"I'll tell you what 'diversity' means: it means fewer white people. Any white person championing diversity is like a turkey looking forward to Christmas. Implementation of mass immigration, the homosexualisation of society, and cheering the 'other' is not diversity: it is identarian ideology. The current mob of 'diversity' pushers do not really want diversity: they want 'sameness of views', disguised in a myriad of foreign faces, tattooed females with crewcuts' and the 'forever young', with no 'pale stale males' in sight. Diversity is their cover for societal destruction."
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 3 November 2017 3:32:30 PM
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 8:20:24 PM
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leoj,

"Driving is a complex activity that requires what is described as 'System 2' thinking, which means you cannot have any distraction and must never lapse into 'automatic'. That is the science (Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman)."

Very true, driving a motor vehicle is far more complex than flying a small 'plane and a lot more dangerous.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 8:47:47 PM
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Nutter,

Everything I said in the posts you reproduced is perfectly true, and has nothing to do with white supremacy. Only a non-white racist could carry on with the crap you do.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 8 November 2017 10:29:07 PM
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So can we conclude the following :

As a bare minimum there should be extra testing for 4x4 drivers for safety reasons and to make sure they have the required skills to drive these vehicles.

Many on here hate 4 x 4 as I do, and some even want them banned.

Unless you do a lot of country travel bull bars should be banned as they defeat many of the safety systems built into modern cars and add to the risks of maiming or injuring others.

4 x 4s other than the smaller sedan types should be banned in the cities and major towns and no vehicles should have bull bars in the cities.

4 x 4 drivers are generally worse drivers than most.

and

Foxy is pretty much correct on everything she has posted here, and should be listened to because of her wonderful driving record and common sense, logical approaches to topics.

I'd agree with all that!
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 9 November 2017 1:51:25 AM
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Up in Queensland again. Using a rental car. On this subject, back home in Sydney I normally use the public Bus/train $2.50 ride all day. Shocked by our nieces partnèr $150 week just for tolls and petrol. Drops her off at the railway station very early, she gets to work at 8am, hour before start time. Shocking now want a second car.
About once in 200 bus trips my son is the driver.

Hi Foxy, a little raciests story. We went into a very expensive perfume shop in Brisbane yesterday, a day off to do some shopping. "T' is both brown skin and a very bright colourful dresser, looked a bit Afro yesterday. Not looking like an expensive perfume shopper at all. Soon as she picked up a tester the shop ass rushed away from the white well conserve dressed customer she was already serving, at high speed mind you, almost running, to give "T" customer ass. With a "yessss, may I be of assistence!". When we left I said to "T" "You distract em', and I'll knock off the lolly water". She gets that sort of treatment all the time in the more expensive shops. The shop ass's are so so obvious.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 9 November 2017 5:53:43 AM
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I love getting tail-gated by a 4WD: as an old person, I immediately start to slow down, say to 40 km in a 60 km zone, and weave a bit from one lane slightly to another so that they can't roar past. Drives them crazy. Yuck yuck.

And why do they seem to drive with their lights on high-beam ? Is that just their usual arrogance, or a design defect ? Like their 'kiss-my-arse' rear body work ?

I agree with Foxy, that they should be banned from urban areas - and, if possible, have to pay an extra 10 % Annoyance Tax to subsidise 3rd Party Insurance etc. costs for older drivers.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 9 November 2017 7:56:43 AM
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What a waste of time this was! Everybody had a whinge about something they can do nothing about,and people will continue to buy and drive 4WDs for ever in a day. Pathetic.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 9 November 2017 8:03:53 AM
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Why do some people want to put small inconspicuous 4x4s off the road?

What have Subaru and Mazda, et al done to deserve this dislike?

Op2,

Do you also drive so close to the vehicle in front that you cannot see its mirrors?

There are a lot of vehicles on the road that are heavier, higher, wider and longer than most 4x4s are the all in the bad books as well?

Hey! Let's start a movement to ban Rolls Royces, the latest is a bit big but not as big as some of the earlier ones (and still on our roads).
"The Phantom (2018) is the first Rolls-Royce to be built on a new all-aluminium platform, dubbed the Architecture of Luxury, that will underpin all future models. Lurking under the bonnet is a twin-turbocharged 6.75-litre V12 that will generate 420kW and a staggering 900Nm - enough shove to propel the 2.6-tonne Phantom to 100km/h in an astonishing 5.3 seconds."

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/rolls-royce-phantom-revealed-64799.html?eid=cpc:nnn-15omn0938-optim-nnn:google_adwords-bau_paid_search_campaign-dom-textad-nnn-drive-nnn&campaign_code=15caf041&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=google_adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=bau2015&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqb6EiICw1wIVkwsrCh0o2QsrEAAYASAAEgJnmPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

and there's a link that soes with the size!!
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 9 November 2017 8:20:36 AM
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Why do you post then ttbn.... If we all took your simplistic defeatest attitude we wouldn't debate anything and society would just be what the wealthy wanted.

Look up "people power" ttbn and stop sulking ... so you lose most discussions you enter - that is only you have nothing to offer except - "nothing will change"

People power has actually pressured Governments to stop wars...

You must be a gleaming little ray of sunshine in real life..

You made a fool of yourself on another thread and now you are doing the same here... You are looking like a total waste of space.

It's time to "Ban the Bullbar" Unless a person can prove they need it for extensive country travel.

I asked people on here, with 4x4 who have bull bars, if they had ever hit a bull or a kangaroo and no-one replied... I wonder why?

If we can't get bull bars banned, and they are in fact "just in case accessories" or ""worse a fashion statement... then I think we should demand every 4x4 has a canoe on board "just in case" they get caught in water. You could paint the canoe pretty colours for the fashion conscious... lmao

Apparently many of the bull bars on current vehicles are actually illegal. I wonder if that is being policed...

An illegal bull bar should mean and instant unroadworthy be put on the vehicle.

Furthermore people selling illegal bull bars that are not approved should face severe penalties to "kerb the practice."

Get it Ï used "kerb the practice" instead of "curb the practice" if it was policed properly many 4x4 would be sitting beside the kerb for some time...lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 9 November 2017 9:17:03 AM
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Op2,

What do you have against the safer 4x4s, I've driven the selective Subaru, the earlier model that a flick of the wrist allowed 4x4 selection and it was a revelation.

The new Mazda 4x4s are one of the safest small cars on the road; what do you have against them, apart from their drivetrain?

I've never hit a 'roo whilst driving a vehicle with a bull bar, but that's mainly good luck, in that one of the pea-brained macropods didn't choose to rush in front of me from cover.
However, I have hit one in a Toyota Corolla, smashed head and parking lights, a 'roo seen the next day, near the spot, with a large patch of gravel rash.
The Statesman sustained over $3,000 worth of damage from brainless 'roos;
I'd stopped to get a sweet from the glove box and was doing 40 kph when a big 'roo jumped straight in front of me, I hit the brake but collided with him, result was a broken right-hand front headlight, front body panel, distorted hood and a big dent in the rh front guard where his head whipped around.
He took off at speed apparently little the worse for the meeting!

Twenty kms further on a small'roo shot out of nowhere and bashed into the left rear guard, the guard being held in place by two spring clips (allows faster assembly) it came off, hit the road and twisted the plastic "bumper bar".
I always carry a long length of rope so was able to tie the guard up by winding the rear windows down a bit and passing the rope through the car.

The Statesman is a tinny car with great mechanicals, except the earlier models that have no adjustment for aligning the rear wheels.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:09:30 AM
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"Hey! Let's start a movement to ban Rolls Royces"
No they ban themselves from car-parks being 5.8m long ( the 1956 Bentley I drove) to Subaru 4.8m long. The extra length is the aircraft fuselage out front, terrorist weapons.
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:17:52 AM
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Op2,

Your opinion of me is just that - and opinion, and a very immature one at that. You really should be doing your school work rather than wasting time here.

I can assure you of one thing: no semi-literate kiddy like you is going to make a damn of difference to 4WD ownership and activities. You are too stupid to know that. You need to move into the real world and not the fantasy one you are in now.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:20:13 AM
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You have made so many guesses about me ttbn and all caused you to make an absolute fool of yourself on anther thread.

So if I was "just a schoolkid", you have had everyone of your arguments destroyed by a pimple faced bart... It doesn't say much for you Mr. grown up! lmao

Of course I am not a school kid but keep guessing... Perhaps you should go back to school and become smarter...lol

Sorry to hear that you hit a kangaroo Is Mise ... I hope you had insurance. Are you sure you weren't driving and getting something from the glove box at the same time? It's OK I don't work for your insurance company...lol

Why belittle a kangaroo's thinking capacitys... They have survived on the planet way longer than humans, and in one of the toughest environments on the planet.

So some idiot species comes along and builds roads all over the place and drives things that kill many innocent animals and themselves and the kangaroo is the pea brain?

It's simply about perspective...

I don't hate 4x4s much... Blaming the vehicle for the underqualified driver seems a bit weird to me.

The smaller sedan type 4x4s don't bother me nearly as much. Unless they have bull bars for decoration...

Now I know the tragedy only happened a few days back but would an ordinary sedan have driven through the wall of the classroom so easliy?

One paper I read described the vehicle as a "A sports utility vehicle" so I wonder if it had bull bars? Does anybody know.

When terrible tragedies happen, it is wise for all of us to reflect and see what small changes might avert further tragedies in the future. This sadly, is one of those events!

YES! Some of those changes might simply be personal changes whilst driving.
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:56:58 AM
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Contrary to what is being implied here, the frontal protection must be ADR compliant and like other traffic offences, police and Dept Transport inspectors are very active in enforcement.

'Drivers in Hats'
This thread reminds me of the many targets of road rage bigotry over the years. What had happened to the 'hatred of male drivers wearing hats', that were abused and inconvenienced wherever possible by the self-certified 'expert-driver' lairs that are so numerous in some quarters? The 'meeja' motormouths, the earlier versions of the idiots of 'The Project', were to the front in servicing the prejudice and adding some.

'Old drivers'
The despised 'Drivers in Hats' merged into the prejudice against elderly generally, although some here would narrow that to 'old white men'.

'Cyclists'
Even where they are obliged to travel on roads, cyclists cop regular sprays, which makes it difficult to isolate the few who might offend.

'Students'
Well, they cops sprays from the feckless 'meeja' for everything else, so they might as well cop some dumps here too.

It is amazing how a prejudice can bog the sufferer down in manure for years, maybe until their dying day, which will come years sooner through the sinister effect of the unresolved stress on the immunity and organs of that bigotry.

Honestly, as if a Kluger is a 'four wheel drive' as reported to unnecessarily and crudely 'sex-up' a tragedy. Of course the media are all so tabloid now as they fight in the only way they know how against the inevitable slide of people to other more reliable sources afforded by the digital revolution.

Mabe sporting 'more tatts than teeth' is only second as an indicator of how easily led a person is and believing the 'meeja' comes first.
Posted by leoj, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:58:39 AM
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Good Morning Everyone,

And what a beautiful morning it is in Melbourne.
I really don't have much more to add to this
discussion except to say that 4 wheel drive
owners should have extra specialised tests before
being allowed to drive one. We have special licenses
to drive buses, trucks, et cetera - the same should
apply to 4 wheel drives. My daughter-in-law's mum
recently bought a 4 wheel drive (her husband died a
few years ago and she's taken to indulging herself
with things she's always wanted). However she's not
a very tall lady - and I worry about her capacity to
be able to drive a 4 wheel drive. According to my
daughter-in-law - the vehicle is huge. So yes, a
test would be appropriate for her besides which
she's always been a very nervous driver.

Dear Paul,

What you've described sounds like the scene from the
film "Pretty Woman," with Julia Roberts. Silly
shop-girls. I would not have let them off that easily.
I would have said (with a sweet smile)
- "Yes, I hope you can help me
I'm buying a gift for someone very special.
What do you suggest for an elegant grandmother?"
I would have turned the tables on them and got them to
do their job. Also, I would have taken my time in trying
quite a few of the expensive perfumes before walking out
of the store.

"Brown skin and colourful" - sounds great to me. You're
a lucky man.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:59:04 AM
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WE have kangaroos in our estate and I have nearly hit one whilst coming home.

Luckily for me and the kangaroo, I was driving under the speed limit and so easily managed to stop. Bush turkeys and kangaroos often make a run for it in front of cars... Well the kangaroos make a hop for it...lol

Our estate speed limit is 50kph and I very rarely travel even that fast due to kids in the estate.

Kids and Kangaroos often get in the way of cars so I am very wary and alert.

Many of the people in this estate have bull barred 4x4s and even when they have kids themselves they still barrel along without a care.

Maybe with 4x4s it's an iq thing... Men who still haven't grown up need big ones to overcompensate for some part of their bodies that may under-perform... lmao...

I have had 1 driving ticket for 7kph over the speed limit and 3 accidents only one of which I was to blame. Not as good as Foxy but I am doing my best.
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 9 November 2017 11:07:38 AM
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https://www.lexus.com.au/models/lx/features/safety

Can't go past this at $159k.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 9 November 2017 11:49:50 AM
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Wouldn't it be great to stick clowns like this Opinionated2, obviously a totally incompetent driver, into something like the 27 Chev that I learnt to drive in. They would actually learn something about how easy modern luxury 4WDs are to drive.

Even better we could put them into a T model Ford, & see if they were capable of making progress.

I suppose we are stuck with sharing our planet with these clowns, we just have to make sure these dictatorial twits, with their addled thinking never gets any say in developing our laws.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 9 November 2017 11:51:19 AM
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" how easy modern luxury 4WDs are to drive."

"A FAMILY forced to run for their lives after a man allegedly deliberately bulldozed their home say they made it out with only seconds to spare.
Lake Macquarie man Jamie Sager, 48, allegedly stole the D9 bulldozer from a mine yard before driving it through the bush and over cars in order to destroy the house in Teralba about 7.30am yesterday."
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 9 November 2017 12:09:47 PM
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"Maybe with 4x4s it's an iq thing... Men who still haven't grown up need big ones to overcompensate for some part of their bodies that may under-perform... lmao..."

'It's the Mens and their body bits'
LOL, that old feminist sledge against men is another beauty where foolish negative stereotyping is concerned. And there is a seemingly endless play on that theme, ie on hatred of men. It does categorise and date the user more than most road rage sledges though and many young women don't have a bar of it,

http://womenagainstfeminism.com/

The driver of the subject medium car that wasn't a 4X4, was a woman though. Reportedly the police have charged the driver with something like negligent driving which should give the clueless some clue (but apparently not!).

'They should get a licence', 'There should be a special licence' and others on that theme
These road rage sledges are of course anything but constructive, intending to slag and hopefully tie a tail to, to ridicule and inconvenience the target of the rage. Of course there already are licence categories (and ADRs).
Posted by leoj, Thursday, 9 November 2017 12:12:38 PM
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Leoj,

If you were referring to my comments, I was not implying the police aren't doing there jobs in regards to bull bars.

Have a look at this report on a blitz by NSW police.

http://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/2429413/local-drivers-fined-after-bull-bar-blitz/

I hope the vehicles caught were immediately declared unroadworthy. To just fine the owner with something like that on the car, would be a massive ongoing risk to others, until the driver got around to removing the bars.

I know blitzes are also used to get news time for the Police to better get their message across.

All power to the police on this one!
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 9 November 2017 12:37:46 PM
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Opinionated2,

You should stop worrying. That utility in the report's photo is a put-up or a joke car. The front suspension couldn't handle that weight anyhow. You see examples in shows where everything is overdone and unlikely. There is plenty of regulation and enforced. Indirectly too, because non-ADR compliant accessories void warranty and insurance, and rapidly deteriorate (as in destroy) the vehicle.

We do allow a lot of distractions in modern driving though and we can become careless and automatons at the wheel. I am constantly reminding myself to be mindful while driving. It takes discipline to have a quick check around the car, tyres, anything, anyone :( near etc, even before opening the door.

What you should be concerned about though is the prevalence of drugs. Where Australia(!) rates in the highest usage of illicit drugs and getting worse,

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/australian-crime-groups-form-unholy-alliance/news-story/7903e539df2803a4d642df42f6a3d253
Posted by leoj, Thursday, 9 November 2017 1:04:05 PM
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Taken from reader's comments on 4WDs in the
Sydney Morning Herald:

"I think that few people would argue against
the fact that it requires additional skills
and knowledge to handle 4WDs, especially
during movements of emergency. You can't see
through or around them. Their brake lights are
in funny places, et cetera. A separate class of
licence should be introduced to require
existing/new drivers to undergo additional tests.
4WDs should have minimum standards on viewable
windows at the back, reverse sound and flashing
lights, and restrictions on the types of bull
bars allowed.
Also the fact that we let mums, dads, brothers, sisters,
anybody- teach kids how to drive is quite disturbing.
You're only going to end up as incompetent as the
person who taught you".

"It seems that one of the primary motives behind the
purchase of a 4WD by most inner-city residents is that
4WDs are somehow "safer" than regular sedans. Unfortunately
this notion of safety is flawed. Yes, if your driving
ability is such that you end up in an accident in a 4WD,
there's a pretty good chance you will survive.
Never mind that other cars, motorists, pedestrians, animals,
are damaged, killed or destroyed in the process".

"Now if we only could stop mums from parking their 4WDs
in no stopping zones in front of schools, or driving into
school yards - it might also help reduce accidents."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 9 November 2017 1:10:04 PM
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Foxy,

"You're only going to end up as incompetent as the
person who taught you".

Wrong, should read as incompetent as the examiner that passed you, or, perhaps as incompetent as people who drive so close behind 4x4s that they can't be seen in the side mirrors.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 9 November 2017 1:34:23 PM
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Is Foxy riding a kid's tricycle? My sedan lets me see cyclists , Subarus and little old ladies in the rear view mirror . Do we need special rules to survive being on the same road as a Kluger with design faults and 337 Nm of overkill?
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 9 November 2017 2:37:20 PM
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//Why belittle a kangaroo's thinking capacitys//

Because they are amazingly stupid animals. Although apparently, they're not alone. 'Capacitys'....

//They have survived on the planet way longer than humans, and in one of the toughest environments on the planet.//

So have bacteria, and they don't even have brains. You don't have to be smart to survive. That's not how natural selection works.

//I have had 1 driving ticket for 7kph over the speed limit and 3 accidents only one of which I was to blame. Not as good as Foxy but I am doing my best.//

Sounds like you're a crap driver.

My Dad has driven 4WD's since long before I was born, and has never been booked. My Mum, unsurprisingly, has driven the same car, and has had only one accident in which she was not at fault.

If 4WD's are so hard to drive and my parents have such a good driving record, what does that say about your driving skills that you can't even handle a 2WD as well as they've handled their 4WD's? Maybe sort out your own shite before you go around criticising other people's driving abilities, you sad little hypocrite.

//Maybe with 4x4s it's an iq thing//

That would seem to be the case: an irrational opposition to 4WD vehicles appears to be correlated with a low IQ.

//Men who still haven't grown up need big ones to overcompensate for some part of their bodies that may under-perform//

Maybe it's because they're Asian women because they're all terrible drivers, lol!

//Have a look at this report on a blitz by NSW police.//

Yeah, that picture has been photoshopped. Maybe stop and have a think about the physics before you automatically push the 'I Believe' button.

Gullible people should be required to get a special licence to use the internet.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 9 November 2017 3:11:26 PM
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//It seems that one of the primary motives behind the
purchase of a 4WD by most inner-city residents is that
4WDs are somehow "safer" than regular sedans.//

No, the reason why people who live in the inner city and never go off road buy 4WD's is because they're expensive. There is a certain school of thought that if you have money it is important to show it off, lest people mistake you for being poor. Which would be unthinkable, because poor people are scum. So they buy a better type of car, to show off their wealth.

4WD's are better cars, but the ways in which they are better are irrelevant for city driving. But if you want an expensive car which still has room for little Phoenix, Arbuthnot & Hephaestus, plus Phoenix's lacrosse stick, Arbuthnot's double bass and all the shopping bags full of kale... a sports car isn't big enough, a Rolls is a bit too pricey, and everything else looks too much like a commoner's car.

//Now if we only could stop mums from parking their 4WDs
in no stopping zones in front of schools, or driving into
school yards - it might also help reduce accidents.//

Yeah, the problem isn't the car: 4WD's are fine in the right hands. That's why a lot of emergency services vehicles are 4WD. The problem is some of the dicks behind the wheel who think that cars are status symbols rather than tools.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 9 November 2017 3:13:54 PM
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What about special liscences to drive 6x6s?

Foxy,

6x6s are generally ex-military vehicles with big, heavy bumper bars (they don't need bull bars and there are plenty on the roads 'C' class licence, then there is this Trojan and road registered.
https://www.tradetrucks.com.au/search/type-trucks/subtype-trucks/class-ex+military
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 9 November 2017 3:16:12 PM
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Opinionated2

Perhaps you should go and test drive one. At least then you will have some idea of what you are talking about.

My daughter drives one and the features it has blows me away. It even has active cruise control which means one can essentially be a passenger, not that I recommend that.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 9 November 2017 3:19:33 PM
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". Anybody who thinks they need a 4WD in a city is a danger not because they are poor drivers, but because they are morons.
The problem is some of the dicks behind the wheel who think that cars are status symbols rather than tools."
Posted by Toni Lavis,

Without active cruise control to detect a parked class-room a Kluger demolition tractor needs some tool instruction.
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 9 November 2017 4:14:01 PM
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Foxy I'm sorry, but that is utter garbage. Modern 4WDs & all wheel drives are no harder to drive than the modern horrible front drive hatchbacks most drive today, & are indeed a damn sight safer to drive, especially in wet conditions. Their handling characteristics are much better.

As you know I raced cars, & won a Bathurst 100 among other races, driving a Formula 1 Brabham Repco. I have some experience to judge from. I have also towed cars, horses & boats tens of thousands of miles, & know why people chose a 4WD for the job. Clowns like Opinionated2 probably believe city folk should be banned from doing such things.

There is this irrational ratbag fringe of greenies who hate 4WDs, basically on consumption grounds, with a bit of jealousy thrown in. Not knowing any Toorak mums I don't know anyone who owns one unless they have a towing or off road requirement.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 9 November 2017 6:20:30 PM
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Dear Hassie,

I admit that my knowledge about cars could not be
equated with yours as an experienced racing car driver.
And, I do realise that there are some 4WDs
that are smaller in size and do
not pose a threat in city traffic. I'm not talking
about those vehicles. What I am
referring to are the huge vehicles that you can't
see through or around them - they present a hazard
to many people. I am not the only one who has
expressed this opinion. You may not agree with me - however
that is what I have experienced.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:17:28 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Hassie,

Perhaps I'm not explaining things well.

Huge 4WDs are a hazard to regular passenger car drivers in
parking lots, and busy street traffic by virtue of
their blocking the lines of sight for safe driving. You're
talking about the safety issues relating to 4WD usage by the
owners of the vehicles. I'm talking about the hazards these
big vehicles cause to other drivers of standard passenger cars.
And these hazards are getting worse due to the increase in
number of these big "tanks".
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:28:37 PM
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Foxy,

" What I am referring to are the huge vehicles that you can't
see through or around them -"

Such as utes with canopies, vans (small and large), small trucks, medium trucks, pantechnicons, long rigid trucks, semi-trailers and B Doubles, plus buses, rigid and bendy;
you can't see through them either but you can position yourself, if you are a safe driver, so that their drivers can see you in their rearview mirrors, you seem to have a problem with this basic driving requirement.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 9 November 2017 10:48:25 PM
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Whoops..

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/storm/elderly-driver-loses-control-of-car-smashing-into-parked-vehicle-and-hospital-building/vp-BBELcEq

Looks like an early 2000's Statesman sedan. Ban Statesman sedans? All sedans?
Posted by leoj, Thursday, 9 November 2017 11:58:01 PM
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Sorry I was away so I will try to answer some of the silly posts directed at me...

Hasbeen has assessed me as an incompetant driver because I object to his pathetic attempts to relate extra training for 4x4 drivers as dictatorial... Lost the plot much Hasbeen? Apparently in Hasbeen's conspiracy theorist mind extra training for the safety of others on our roads is what dictators do... Logic isn't one of his strengths..lmao

Toni Lavis - Jumps in with a line by line review regarding a tongue in cheek post I made... You are correct you are one of the gullible people you mentioned and should sit a test regarding use of the internet for dummies... lmao

rehctub thinks I have never driven a 4x4 for some unknown reason... So I do actually know what I am talking about...

Hasbeen then thinks that I probably think that his driving experiences means that I think city folk should be banned from driving those cars also... Again he probably has sniffed too many fumes in his life... The heading of the thread doesn't mention banning anything... Do high octane fuels and the like cause basic logic and comprehension in Hasbeens? lmao

All in all we have managed to rattle the cages of many people here...

Just as an aside I had a bull barred 4x4 driving way too close to my rear today. I was travelling at the speed limit intending to turn right at the next intersection 300 metres ahead... He was trying to bully me into breaking the speed limit to get past the car to the left of me so he could speed past me... That's what 4x4 drivers tend to do... Use their vehicle to bully...
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 10 November 2017 1:40:48 AM
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Before Hasbeen gets too excited I had better correct a sentence I posted...lol

The question was -

Do high octane fuels and the like cause basic logic and comprehension problems in Hasbeens? lmao

I was too busy laughing at Hasbeen's conspiracy theory logic and didn't check what I had typed...lol Are you a flat earther Hasbeen?...lol

Ise Mise seems to want to belabour the point that he read on the back of a bus ... We get it... trust me we get it!

So what are you saying - Let's add as many vehicles that limit the vision of others so you feel good about your point? When no-one can see we then blame all the drivers for the vehicles that restrict vision? Or do you just feel more manly nagging Foxy when she has said nothing wrong?

So why do some people treat this like a basic rights issue - Changing the testing regimes for 4x4 drivers for the safety of all is nothing special. It is a basic right for us all to stay safe even on the roads.

On occasion I watch that show Highway Patrol and it is unbelievable that people treat road safety and road rules with so much disrespect... The police also are often treated horrendously when they are just doing their jobs!

If bull bars aren't a problem why are the police having blitzes that catch nearly 40 people for faulty bullbars in the Tamworth area?

Perhaps the police should simply sit and watch the cameras that are on many of our roads and just issue fines and unroadworthy certificates on poorly modified vehicles via mail. The States coffers will love the extra revenue!

That wouldn't just be targeting 4x4s of course, that would target all vehicles. I thought I'd add that bit just so you people who think that poor widdle 4x4 drivers are victims of society...lmao

I can't wait to laugh at the Police state arguments that will probably follow that last point...lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 10 November 2017 2:36:54 AM
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//regarding a tongue in cheek post I made...You are correct you are one of the gullible people you mentioned//

Well there we go... turns out really doesn't dislike 4WD's at all, he's just taking the piss. Hat's off to him, he had us all going for a while there.

//Just as an aside I had a bull barred 4x4 driving way too close to my rear today. I was travelling at the speed limit intending to turn right at the next intersection 300 metres ahead... He was trying to bully me into breaking the speed limit to get past the car to the left of me so he could speed past me... That's what 4x4 drivers tend to do... Use their vehicle to bully...//

And bizarrely, he's still going to continue with his piss-take now that he's let the cat out of the bag.

We're all in on the joke now, mate. Don't think there's much point...
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 10 November 2017 4:23:21 AM
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"tongue in cheek".. was that about the kangaroo blaming ?
leoj
All wheel is twice 2 wheel. Comparing the damage to your building compared with the school-room may be interesting.

Different testing is done above 4.5tons than for a C licence.
LR - Light Rigid - small buses or trucks GVM 4.5 tons
Mercedes Sprinter 4.5 tons, small transit bus 150hp, 330Nm ,.
2 or all wheel drive.

Kluger 337 Nm has more torque and does a better job at schools.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 6:27:28 AM
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Op2,

"Or do you just feel more manly nagging Foxy when she has said nothing wrong?"

What she said, among other stupid things, was that she can't see around 4x4s and that they can't see her in their mirrors, therefore she is closer than necessary and in an unsafe position; plain bad driving.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 10 November 2017 7:18:07 AM
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Why would Foxy have a problem seeing around 4x4s and being seen by 4x4s when SHE DOES NOT DRIVE because of one of her many, often talked about, ailments? It's Foxy's husband, who drives her around, who is affected, or not, and it his opinion that matters, not Foxy's. Foxy doesn't need to be seen or to see. I'll bet she is a back seat driver, though.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 10 November 2017 7:40:53 AM
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To all those whinging about 4wd's, stop it. I have held back and waited to see just how lacking people are. To those 'children' who suggest 4wd's be kept out of cities I say, fine as long as you keep city drivers out of the country. What a stupid suggestion. I don't know where to begin to put down this question. My drivers license allows me to drive every known vehicle made. I can even drive a road train. I am the most qualified to comment on this discussion and as usual I find that the majority of the negative comments are from 'children'. People, in life we have to live around other people and we are all flawed in one way or another, yes even me. I am on the road a lot and I can say that by far the worst, no, the most dangerous, are the women. Especially the young ones. Women should not be allowed to drive on public roads. There, I've said it. You are all crap, any comments or suggestions you might have on this topic, keep them to yourselves. Now women are the ones who should have longer driving tests and greater pressure put on them before they are let loose on society. So forget any negatives about 4wd's, just because they make you feel intimidated and inferior, that's your problem. As for the 'roo' bar comments. The commentor obviously knows nothing about auto design and engineering, (I do) because crumple zones are nothing compared with the extra protection of a 'roo' bar. So let's shift the 'extra specialised test from the 4wd's, onto women in general. We would achieve several benefits, one of which would be to educate women about the 'perceived', non-existent dangers of 4wd's.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 10 November 2017 9:03:55 AM
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The school demolition is fake news. I'm the most qualified about kangaroos so everyone shut up.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 9:28:33 AM
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The criticisms of 4WD's go way back in this country.
Some examples are:

Channel 9's "A Current Affair" program - 29/12/2008
with Leila McKinnon focused on "Ban 4WD's from
City Streets". McCrindle Research in
their Research Summary state - "The intolerance shown towards
4WD's on city roads continues to rise. 3 in 5 road users
are against 4WDs and sports utility vehicles (SUVs).

Then there's also The Australian Institute's -

http://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/WP82_8.pdf
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:02:06 AM
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cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo.

Here's the link again:

http://www.tai.org.au/sites/defualt/files/WP82_8.pdf
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:10:01 AM
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ttbn,

For your information Sir,

I've only not been driving since 2015.
And I have driven not only in this
country, but all over the world so I am
in a position to make comments on road
safety. As for my being a "back-seat"
driver. No - I actually sit in the front
seat next to my husband. I enjoy his
company.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:15:45 AM
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Wow! Toni...I saw what you did there...At least your wylie ways impressed yourself...You are like a kyote at a chicken coup...So tricky...lmao

Do 4x4 people/pro bull bar people have IQ problems and are they in the same sheep pen?...lol...Baaaa!

Here's an olive branch for you guys...

Let's just agree that the anti 4x4, anti bull bar set are correct, and you guys are simply uninformed, unknowing, unobservant road users who don't care about road safety of your own families and other people and families.

Phew peace in our time...lol

Now we are in agreement how should we get government to realise 4x4 drivers as a bare minimum need extra training before they drive one on our roads?

The new course

1. Never use your vehicle as a weapon to bully other drivers.

2. 4x4s don't make you a tough guy.

3. Tail gating is dangerous bullying and just plain dumb!

4. Tail gating is when you drive too close to the car in front.

5. Why Bull Bars are deadly....not a fashion statement, and should never be fitted.

6. How to stay in your own lanes and off mobile phones.

8. Why your actions and inattention can turn your 4x4 into a lethal weapon.

9. You can't stop as fast and in as short a distance in a 4x4.

10. Your fellow 4x4 driver is only as smart as you, so be wary.

11. You don't really own the 4x4, when you are nearly bankrupt after you borrow the money from the bank to buy it.

12. Should canoes be a fashion accessory and "just in case" equipment like bull bars, in case you cross a flooded stream and get washed away.

13. Getting washed off a flooded road and drowning in a 4x4 isn't fun!

14. Do bigger tyres make my vehicle more buoyant in water and why?

15. How not to make "broom, broom, I'm like a truck" noises when driving your 4x4.

I could teach the course and have a puppet look-a-like of Hasbeen holding a sign saying "This course is a communist plot"...just for laughs...lmao
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:18:22 AM
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Well, Foxy's last email concerning the historic complaints about 4WDs shows how futile moaning and groaning about the situation is. Nothing came of it back then, and nothing will come of it now. Their is money in the damn things, and they use a lot of taxable fuel.

It's hard enough to get governments to do anything about criminal activities. They are not going to put themselves out over 4x4 driverss who are doing nothing wrong.

You just have to get over, folks. Get into something that really matters in life.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:20:41 AM
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PS I missed out 7. Because I know you guys will get excited when you see it missing. Some of you will stress your pace makers it will be that exciting for you.

I had a 16 just for Is mise but ran out of letters in the post

16. Yes! Because you drive a big fat oversized 4x4 people in other vehicles can't see past you as easily as well.

I wonder if 4x4 damage our roads more than a sedan does...

Maybe they should have much higher registration costs to cover the extra costs to the thinking taxpayers who don't drive them...

Just a thought...lmao

:)
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 10 November 2017 11:27:04 AM
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Bet Opinionated2, actually believes in the global warming scam too.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 10 November 2017 12:08:02 PM
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Hassy, I"m sure you don't. Would not like to see you spoil your perfect record of getting everything wrong. In your hay day, when you were not chopping up the GBR in your boat, weren't you some kind of car nut doing doughnuts around a dirt track, or some such nonsense keeping the rest of the petrol heads happy?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 10 November 2017 1:25:18 PM
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"It's hard enough to get governments to do anything about criminal activities. They are not going to put themselves out over 4x4 driverss who are doing nothing wrong. " sayd ttbn.

Australia pioneered the Mandatory Helmet Law for bicycles in 1990 which have only 1 wheel drive and knocked over an 8 year old going to school.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 1:43:30 PM
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Hi Alt Rav,

Why don't you'll us what you really think ?

Op2,

'12. Should canoes be a fashion accessory and "just in case" equipment like bull bars, in case you cross a flooded stream and get washed away.'

Do you mean the 1 % of 4WDs which ever get off the city bitumen ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 10 November 2017 2:27:50 PM
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Cane toads and buffalo are on the road. . In May 2005 a 46 year old man was killed in Nhulunbuy by a wild buffalo . Police have started hunting buffaloes as this was far from the first incident, other people had been attacked, although nobody had been killed by buffaloes in the town since April 1993. In September 2007 a 49 year old woman from Melbourne was holidaying at Peppers Seven Spirit Bay resort on the Cobourg Peninsula and while she was enjoying a nice stroll along the beach with a couple of friends a wild buffalo charged them and attacked her . Buffalo are reported along the east coast and interfere with surfers escaping shark attacks.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 2:47:13 PM
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I forgot to mention those other obstructive vehicles that ought to be off the roads, if size is the criterion, rigid and articulated fuel tankers, caravans and motorhomes, all farm trailers loaded with hay or bins of pumpkins etc., horse floats and last but not least cranes both self-propelled and truck mounted.

Large tractors hauling implements are a bit of a hazard as well.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 10 November 2017 4:09:24 PM
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That's more like it , a self-propelled crane . "Have a good day at school, Bill . Mum will drop you off using the crane and then pick up a container of pumpkins at Farmers co-op ".
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 4:56:17 PM
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Issy, as a leading member of the Shooters and Hooters, the hooters in their 4wd's will serve as your make do armoured divvy when the next attack comes from us tree hugging freaky people, demanding you put down your weapons.We are working on it in NSW.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 10 November 2017 4:59:53 PM
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//Wow! Toni...I saw what you did there...At least your wylie ways impressed yourself...You are like a kyote at a chicken coup...So tricky//

No wuckas, Mr. Poeslaw.

BTW, I am impressed with your impression of a daft hippie, albeit one that is slightly OTT. Still, not so OTT that it fails to fool all of the people some of the time. Which is pretty damn good.

It's a brilliant parody, and the character you've created is so comically delightful that I'd be reluctant to abandon him too.
Kudos to you for not breaking character, and for the nice authentic little touches like deliberately mis-spelling 'coyote'.

//The new course//

With added course notes for those who have yet to figure out where your cheek is generally placed:

1. Never use your vehicle as a weapon to bully other drivers. Or your moral superiority because you drive a 2WD. Especially if you can't drive that 2WD particularly well.

2. 4x4s don't make you a tough guy. But 2WD's don't make you a better person. Or a better driver, apparently...

3. Tail gating is dangerous bullying and just plain dumb! Regardless of your make and model.

4. Tail gating is when you drive too close to the car in front. Stating the obvious is when y... you know what, figure the rest out for yourselves.

5. Why Bull Bars are deadly....not a fashion statement, and should never be fitted. Advanced course: why bull bars save lives... but cow-catchers are cooler and objectively better.

6. How to stay in your own lanes and off mobile phones. A combined class with the 2WD stream.

7. Basic Mathematics: The importance of being able to count to 10 if you want to avoid making a twat of yourself.

8. Why your actions and inattention can turn your 4x4 into a lethal weapon. Or, Basic Momentum: Where Mass and Velocity Collide. A combined class with the 2WD stream.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 10 November 2017 5:00:21 PM
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9. You can't stop as fast and in as short a distance in a 4x4. Advanced Momentum: The Further Disadvantages of Excess Mass. A combined class with the local Weightwatchers group.

10. Your fellow 4x4 driver is only as smart as you, so be wary. But he isn't half as stupid as the clown in the 2WD next to you who can't drive and doesn't understand simple mechanics, so be very, very afraid.

11. You don't really own the 4x4, when you are nearly bankrupt after you borrow the money from the bank to buy it. But you'd just waste your money on other pointless toys anyway.

12. Should canoes be a fashion accessory and "just in case" equipment like bull bars, in case you cross a flooded stream and get washed away. And other impractical ideas.

13. Getting washed off a flooded road and drowning in a 4x4 isn't fun! Basic Fluid Dynamics: Why it's a Monumentally Stupid Idea to Attempt Driving in Floodwater. A combined class with the Applied Darwinism class.

14. Do bigger tyres make my vehicle more buoyant in water and why? Advanced Fluid Dynamics: Archimedes Principle and the Difference 'Twixt Cars and Boats.

15. How not to make "broom, broom, I'm like a truck" noises when driving your 4x4. How to avoid smug-related complications induced by driving a 2WD.

16. Yes! Because you drive a big fat oversized 4x4 people in other vehicles can't see past you as easily as well. Basic Optics: Line of Sight is in the Eye of the Beholder.

17. Basic Common Sense: if you don't already know all this, then the danger is not so much that you're operating heavy machinery as it is that you're not secured in a well-supervised institution.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 10 November 2017 5:02:07 PM
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Paul,

You're really obsessed with shooting; start another thread.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 10 November 2017 6:27:54 PM
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This could be a safety improvement - a lever action or bump-stock rifle butt next to the pedals for quick acceleration. Sound effects probably not suitable but the wheel grab should give a good kick-back.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 6:40:44 PM
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I see some silly old fart tried to attack a hospital in a 2WD car today.

Better ban them too.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 10 November 2017 7:35:58 PM
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2wd ? Not likely .
The footage was posted on Facebook page Dash Cam Owners Australia, and shows a Ford sedan driving downhill, jumping up off a nature strip and driving over Mr Fisher's car, before becoming airborne.
Posted by nicknamenick, Friday, 10 November 2017 7:43:17 PM
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Hasbeen,

What, farts ? Christ, I'm in trouble, probably with both the P=C and the anti brigades
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 10 November 2017 7:48:04 PM
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Let me clear up another mis-conception. In all the comments I have read where 4wd's are bullies and do a lot of tailgating. I come with shocking news. The worst offenders of ALL traffic codes, not just tailgating, are women. Young ones are the real danger. And I mean danger. I saw this one maggot, must have been all of 12, (no not really, but she looked it), come screaming into view in my rear view mirror. Weaving and speeding. When she got to the rear of my car she just sat right up my arse, waiting for me to either change lanes for her or the car next to her to let her in. Neither of us moved, until the other car peeled off at his exit ramp. Well this maggot must have been on whatever, seeing the gap she swung her car into the next lane and proceeded to 'floor' the accelerator. What happened next was pure gold and karma in it's most purest form. She had turned her wheel so aggressively the cars rear end began to slide a little. Because she was a moron and had NO driving experience the whole situation went from bad to worse and the last vision of her and her car was the two of them looking like they were practicing for a part in a racing car movie, rolling several feet in the air and then rolling along the road. I watched with pleasure thinking,with any luck she's dead. If she hasn't killed someone today she definitely will one day. Someone may have died I did not stop to look. Now before you bleeding hearts start with your pathetic accusations of being mean spirited, let me enlighten you. If it came down to a vote as whether I would want extra specialised driving tests for 4wd drivers or completely banning maggots from driving altogether, You know which would be the right choice.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 10 November 2017 8:24:45 PM
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Sorry Joe, but I think he was even older than me, so definitely an old fart. Have you joined the club?
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 10 November 2017 9:01:47 PM
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I don't think the problem is so much the cars, but the drivers. We have to stop giving driving licences to animals. I often hear a driver yell, "learn the road rules yah WOMBAT!", or "give way! Yah bloody DINGO!", "where did you get your licence... TURKEY!". Having so many animals driving cars is not a good idea.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 11 November 2017 5:55:42 AM
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Paul,

Listener or recipient?
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 11 November 2017 9:40:57 AM
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All the silly arguments against road safety improvements regarding 4x4s is amazing.

Large 4x4s are totally unecessary in the city environment. The case against them is proved over and over.

We need trucks to deliver goods, we need ambulances, we need police search and rescue vehicles, we need earth moving equipment etc.

We don't need large 4x4s driven on our roads.

I'm not even sure if they are needed in the country either because before they came along we seemed to manage OK. Farmer's had normal family vehicles and survived, or for stock and carting grains they used trucks.

Even the pro 4x4ers here must admit that is the real history and 4x4s are a dangerous fashion statement we can do without.

Of course sedans have accidents and of course a sedan can run into a building BUT generally speaking a sedan will never do the damage a large 4x4 will do in the exact same circumstances.

So are you all really against improving the safety on our roads for your families and others?

Hasbeen... Personally I don't care if we are in a global warming trend, caused by man or anything else, or a global cooling trend caused by man or anything else... I know that we are doing our very best to make the planet uninhabitable.

Now I realise that for a conspiracy theorist like you destroying forests the way we do, and polluting land sea and air continually the way humans do, probably isn't a problem and has no effect, but I'm afraid it does.

So just tell me this ... Why have the glaciers receeded all over the world so much? I doubt glaciers shrink in an ice age but I would bow down to the greater knowledge of a petrol head like you...lmao
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 11 November 2017 12:21:44 PM
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Op2,

"I'm not even sure if they are needed in the country either because before they came along we seemed to manage OK. Farmer's had normal family vehicles and survived, or for stock and carting grains they used trucks.

Even the pro 4x4ers here must admit that is the real history and 4x4s are a dangerous fashion statement we can do without."

But that isn't the real history at all; before the advent of 4x4s in the country areas the farmers still had go anywhere modes of transport, horses and bullocks and in the far west, camels.
The end of WWII saw the emergence of the 4x4 as a practical farm/go to market vehicle and returning servicemen saw their potential.
They also saw the potential of tanks and various armoured fighting vehicles were converted for use on the land.
Thousands of ex-military 4x4s were sold to the public from late 1945 onwards.

I note that the terminology is changing, it's now "large" 4x4s, welcome aboard!!
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 11 November 2017 1:30:30 PM
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Opinionated2, if you had driven a modern 4x4 you would not have started this thread.

In fact, if I were to have a crash id rather be in a 4by than one of these tiny tin can that wiz around. In fact, vans are far worse than your modern 4x4.

But hey, enjoy your state of mind.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 11 November 2017 2:24:54 PM
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//We don't need large 4x4s driven on our roads.//

I think she imagines that all our roads are just as nice and smooth and tarred as the one she drives on because she's never been outside the city, and apparently nobody has told her that things are different in less urbanised environments and 4WDs are frequently a necessity to get where you want to go.

//So are you all really against improving the safety on our roads for your families and others?//

Do you really think that forcing everybody to drive 2WDs, even on roads that are only suitable for 4WDs, constitutes 'improving safety'?

Maybe we should make firetrucks 2WDs (and a lot smaller as well). That should all make us much safer, right? Except for when we get incinerated...

4WDs are 4WDs for a reason. It's so they can go places 2WDs can't. If you don't think people should be going to those places, then you need to explain why instead of just whining about health & safety.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 11 November 2017 3:04:06 PM
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In a 4x4 crash the driver walked away from the school-room.
In a van crash , all the kids walk away from the school-room.
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 11 November 2017 4:30:29 PM
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nicknamenick,

What BS!

Light construction walls are very easily penetrated. By far the most common vehicle doing that and disappearing inside at the same time, would be ordinary compact four cylinder hatchbacks and sedans that have superb power to weight ratio, are very nippy and are so often through cheapness even where new, in the hands of inexperienced and Sunday drivers.

Just Google for the hundreds of photos of small front wheel drives that have been buried entirely inside houses and businesses and sometimes catching fire. The headline, 'hatchback at the dinner table or on the double bed' isn't as welcome to the editor as an ordinary people carrier, a 2WD Kluger (some are AWD, none are 4WD) described as a 'Four Wheel drive'.

Honestly, the media play so many games with public, yanking their chains with the negative stereotypes invented by the 'meeja' and scurrilous politicial animals. Talk about 'false news', the question is 'What isn't?'.
Posted by leoj, Saturday, 11 November 2017 6:03:15 PM
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However, a van is not nice for the driver , Kluger is.
An Impreza hatchback has 320Nm and weighs 1.3 tons , total force 416 units.
Kluger has 337Nm weighs 1.9 tons , total 640 units of whammy crash or one and a half ground zero .
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 11 November 2017 6:29:47 PM
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I'm told that, in a production of Gilbert & Sullivan's Mikado here in Adelaide a few years back, when the poo-bah was making his List, of who to punish and, well, who to exterminate, the singer added 4WD drivers (I forget to which category). The audience broke into spontaneous, enthusiastic and sustained applause.

You know it makes sense.
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 11 November 2017 6:41:33 PM
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He could have said

Volvo® Cars Australia - 2018 AWD SUV Range -
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 11 November 2017 6:51:28 PM
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nicknamenick,

You are confused. The smaller fourbangers (the drivers) are notorious for accidents. So think of the high incidence of mishap. Next, because the vehicles have high acceleration and the drivers like to plant the foot, the momentum is going to be higher.

It all comes back to the driver's skill and care. Argue the toss if you like to waste your time, but all here could improve their own chances by being in the moment while driving, actually concentrating on the road and recognising hazards and controlling the distractions and day dreaming (or ruminating/worrying). Hard to do but attention pays off.

I served on a number of honorary positions on school councils and drop off and pick up was always a source of problems, especially where teachers' cars and other vehicles were allowed within the perimeter of the school fence. What to do where available infrastructure cannot keep up with the outrageous population growth of federal government Ponzie immigration records?
Posted by leoj, Saturday, 11 November 2017 7:00:54 PM
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"because the vehicles have high acceleration and the drivers like to plant the foot, the momentum is going to be higher. "

The numbers do it all . Newtons measure the acceleration of mass . With more mass , the Kluger has more grunt for its larger Newtons and more AWD grip on the changing surfaces as it charges into battle.
Posted by nicknamenick, Sunday, 12 November 2017 8:13:29 PM
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