Hi again Jayb,

The crack-pot notion of a separate Aboriginal State is not new: back in the early 1920s, Colonel Genders, a retired Adelaide accountant, proposed just that, based on Arnhem Land. it was to be (hello, Yuyutsu, didn't see you there) only for 'full-bloods', with a 'full-blood' Premier. He canvassed the idea with David Unaipon, who thought it was a great idea (since he was himself 'full-blood' and saw himself as leading it, and for life).

Unaipon was paid to tout the idea in southern Aboriginal communities, and received what you might call 'minimal' support: who would leave their own country to go up to the NT, they asked. So another idea died a well-deserved death.

Only to be revived by truly-ruly 'radical' Indigenous people fifty years later, with Mansell's half-witted ideas (God, hasn't he wasted his entire one-and-only life touting the same pipe-dream: some thought bubbles last longer than others, depending on the intelligence of the 'thinker').

So let a handful of squeaky wheels push their wobbly barrow out into the deserts. It will keep them out of the Sensible People's way for another few decades.

Joe

Dear Joe,

«It's none of your damn business what people call themselves.»

They can call themselves whatever they want, they can even call themselves swans if they like and try to fly, but if they betray their heritage and behave like white British/Australian people then they deserve no more and no less than white British/Australian people.

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Dear Jayb,

Yes, a special State is a possibility if that's what they want.
This doesn't necessarily mean that they would have no "white Man material" there - that's completely up to them. Why, they could even invite some white people to join them, on their own terms and conditions.

However, if they do not choose to have a special State and they come and steal your car, bash your kids, etc. then you do what you need to do in self-defence. Think dingoes: if they steal/damage your property/stock or threaten your children, then what do you do? Do what is necessary, anything but subjecting them to Australian laws - you wouldn't do this to dingoes, right?

Besides the above, they have two more choices:

3. Have no special state, but live their life peacefully without bothering you either. If that's their preference then they should be able to do that (think kangaroos).
4. Assimilate in Australian society, in which case as you correctly stated, they should have the same rights as any white Man. No more, no less & subject to Australian Laws without privilege.

Yuyutsu,

If WHO wants ? Have the 'spokespeople, 'the usual suspects', asked the Indigenous people what THEY want ?

So maybe that has to be the next step, after the 'leaders' sort themselves out and agree on a coherent wish-list - then they demand a plebiscite of all Indigenous people, to vote on the chosen issues, and really demonstrate what they want.

And, of course, what they decide they want - that's what can be put to the Australian people for their decision.

As for your comment, " .... if they betray their heritage and behave like white British/Australian people then they deserve no more and no less than white British/Australian people..... "

perhaps you didn't put much thought into it and didn't really mean it, but on its face, that is so contemptibly racist, it doesn't rate a comment.

Joe

'Farming' covers growing crops or raising livestock (or birds, fish etc.) Agriculture also means growing crops, but includes the technical meaning of changing the species by selective breeding. (Pascoe comments that some academics reject his use of the term agriculture, because they believe there was no selection).

So, did Aborigines 'farm' plants or animals? There's several levels to this: increasing productivity, expanding range, and genetic selection.

Example 1. Cultivation of the yam daisy. The tuber was collected but the top of the plant and roots left, the soil was cultivated by hand around the plants. The huge extent, the location and the intensive hand cultivation of the yam fields (plenty of historic records) indicate that the plant was propagated into new areas.

Example 2. Fruit trees grown around long-term campsites in northern Australia. The range distribution of species indicates that fruit was collected elsewhere and grown from seed at campsites, good locations with compost from ash and food waste. Seed germination would have happened accidently, but the trees would have need care to grow to maturity at campsites. The pattern of siting of different species of trees at campsites (ie relative to water, sun, shade) suggests human agency.

Example 3. Extension of range of eels by digging channels that enabled eels to move into catchments that didn't flow direct to the sea (they migrate from salt to fresh water to breed). Also building mazes of channels and ponds would have increased productivity, as well as make them easier to catch.

Examples 1 and 2 could have easily led to genetic change by selection of plants with larger tubers, or trees with preferred fruit, to plant. Genetic selection of eels would be harder, because of other selective factors in their life cycle.

So why don't we know whether there was any genetic change on plants like these? The yam fields were wiped out by introduced stock very quickly (sheep eat them preferentially), though it might still be possible to study fruit tree stands round old campsites. Basically no-one has really looked, because of the underlying assumption that Aborigines didn't farm things.

The well-documented harvesting of grass seeds has been poo-pooed here as 'just gathering'.

Here is Thomas Mitchell: the native millet..'was pulled, to a very great extent, and piled in hay-ricks, so that the aspect of the desert was softened into the agreeable semblance of a hay-field. The grass had evidently been laid up by the natives, but for what purpose we could not imagine .. .we found the ricks, or hat-cocks, extending for miles'. On the Narren River (N NSW) 'grass had been pulled for the express purpose of gathering the seed.. I counted nine miles along the river'.

It's pretty clear Mitchell wasn't a farmer, or he would have known that there are two reasons to store grain: first, for future consumption and second, as a seed bank.

On the Finke, Giles recorded: 'discovered a native granary... a rude platform in a tree, about 7 or 8 feet from the ground, on this... in a heap a number of bags made of close netting. .. astonished to find that they contained different kinds of grain, stored up for the winter, or rather the dry season'.

This is a classic grain store, high in a tree, away from rodents and ants, tightly bound to protect from birds and rain.

There are many more accounts like these. (to be continued).

Yuitsie: This doesn't necessarily mean that they would have no "white Man material" there - that's completely up to them.

Hey! It's them that always go on about reviving their heritage, & that's their heritage. Isn't it.

Coss: The tuber was collected but the top of the plant and roots left.

The Tuber is the root. They were nomadic & would know not to completely deplete everything in that spot.

Coss: Fruit trees grown around long-term campsites in northern Australia. The range distribution of species indicates that fruit was collected elsewhere and grown from seed at campsites.

Yep, when you collect the fruit, eat it then spit the seeds out. It's called seed dispersal. Birds & animals do it too. Nothing special there.

Coss: Extension of range of eels.

Got news for you. Did you know that some Eels on the East & Southern Coast travel to Fiji to mate & return to the River Systems they left. They travel overland during flood times & bury deep in the ground during the Dry, waiting for the next wet. The ones in Western Australia travel across to the African Coast. Learnt something to-day, that's a good thing, eh.

Coss: because of the underlying assumption that Aborigines didn't farm things.

They didn't. All you have said is an assumption on your part, nothing more. (Could have, maybe.) My neighbour is a Plant Scientist & he looks specifically for rare & endangered plants all over Australia & New Guinea. That is his specific area of expertise.

Oh, I forgot. They did farm animals, in & around the Palmer Gold fields. In fact they used to catch this particular animal & hang it by it Top Not from the branches of trees, then kill it & eat it when they wanted a feed. In fact this particular type of animal husbandry was noted by eminent scientists at the time. It was also told to me by my Grandfather who was there at the time. Grain fed too, rice mainly, as they were Chinese Gold Prospectors, you see. So you are right on that point.