Is Mise: Are you vying for the comedy award too?

No, unfortunately. Oh, alright, a T-Shirts a bit thin, but a thick Lumberjack Shirt at 50m. A 9mm would be flat out penetrating it. You would get a hefty bruise though.

nnn: Absolutely the M60 suppressive fire mops up a feral black personnel gang as well as the mountain cannon grape-shot does. I prefer the grape-shot for faster acquisition of target and reducing return fire.

Living a fantasy again Nick. Are you talking about using a shot gun. You have to get dam close & use man shot, that's 5 5mm pieces in a round. You have to get dam close for them to be effective. If you are talking about normal Duck shot then all you do is make people mad. If you are talking about Canister or Splintex then you are talking about Artilery.

I do like Claymores. I was there at the time & place at 2 R.A.R. when Lenny lost his legs. As we used to say, "What's got 800 ball & F@*&S everything." These are a bit heavy to use on Civies though, don't you think?

Is Mise, how many times have you been on a 25m range, inspected the Fig, 11's & found lots of brass still imbedded in the 3 ply? Lots, I'll bet.

Back on page 2 at the end :
This little dude was used in the Civil War and at this light weight it will comfortably ride on your cab roof.
"12-pounder Mountain Howitzer bronze.
220 lbs"
-
Tactical operations :
"Since it would be rather difficult to hit a deer with a Mountain Howitzer Cannon that used a single 12 pound cast iron ball, ( even an exploding one ) and because down range fall-out ( from 1000 to 1500 yards ) would be a factor with that single 4-1/2" diameter ball, it would be more practical to use a standard load of what was called "Canister Shot".
A standard load of canister shot for the 12 pound Mountain Howitzer Cannon - is 148 individual lead balls, specifically, .69 caliber ( dia ) lead "musket balls". Total weight of this load is about 10-1/4 pounds. Velocity of the load is approximately 1000 feet per second, being lethal to about 250 yards.

The nice thing about using a canister shell in the Mountain Howitzer, is that each individual .69 cal lead ball weighs 1-1/4 ounces. This is exactly the same size and weight of a standard 12 gauge shotgun slug.

Casting the needed 148 lead balls takes a bit of time, and lots of lead. It is not necessary to have perfect balls (?) but check the weight of each to insure that none of them have large internal voids which could affect their accuracy."

Jayb,

"Is Mise, how many times have you been on a 25m range, inspected the Fig, 11's & found lots of brass still imbedded in the 3 ply? Lots, I'll bet"

Never, but then we were using WWII left over ammo.

One of my 'party' tricks was to shoot a figure target at 400 yards with the Owen gun.
The sight picture was base of the target on top of the rere sight and the top of the target just being touched by the underside of the fore sight mount. all shots would penetrate.
Likewise 44 gallon rubbish drums at the side of the range, depending on age/condition they would be penetrated on one side or severely dented/split.
I did know of one Chinese soldier who took a full magazine from an Owen, his heavy winter uniform saved him but he was knocked unconscious and taken prisoner.

I fired a 9mm Glock last Sunday at the range and managed to group 8 inches at 50 metres, which is not good by target standards but far, far better than your estimates and those of the police spokesman; admittedly our police are generally bad shots.
My youngest daughter was a firearms instructor in one of our police forces and she could tell some horror tales about lack of police competence.

By the way, the Bren can be made to spray its shots by fitting a worn barrel nut, our savvy gunners always had a worn nut to use when called for, but NEVER when giving overhead covering fire!!

Is Mise: One of my 'party' tricks was to shoot a figure target at 400 yards with the Owen gun.

1300fps at the muzzle the Velocity drops dramatically from there. At 400yds, according to the chart. about 950fps. Of course that's the old ammo we were using. I believe they up graded after the debacle in Vietnam in 65. The new age 9mm is 1500fps Mv, so at 400 it's still travelling at 1300fps. Standard 9mm Parabellum is still listed at 1300fps. I guess we must have still been getting rid of old ammo back in Australia for many years when using the F1. Pistol ammo has a lower MV at 1000fps. All very confusing now-a-days.

Of course Barrel length does make a difference The Glock has a 5" barrel,the Owen a 9.75" & the F1 with a 7.75" Barrel. The blow back action of the Owen & the F1 does drop the MV a bit. Just physics.

" I do like Claymores.. These are a bit heavy to use on Civies though, don't you think?"

No.