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The Forum > General Discussion > Turkish coup. About time?

Turkish coup. About time?

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Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan was slowly turning a secular democracy into an Islamic dictatorship. His use of force against all detractors was inevitably going to run up against the Turkish military who have long been the guardians of secularism.

While I am not in favour of military coups, this time I believe it was necessary.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/turkish-military-coup-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-used-brute-force-against-his-people-20160715-gq72bw.html
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 16 July 2016 10:42:04 AM
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Have the Turkish military long been the guardians of secularism Shadow Minister?
I would suggest it is the usual power struggles between one group over another, as happens in many places in the world.

Mind you, if what you say is true, we could use those Turkish uniformed guys here, to keep that nasty Sharia law at bay?
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 16 July 2016 7:58:26 PM
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SM,

There is some conjecture that the coup was staged - or at least a weak attempt was allowed to proceed in order for Erdogan to further suspend civil liberties.

"Social media users have compared the coup attempt in which more than 160 people are thought to have died to the Reichstag fire – the 1933 arson attack on the German parliament building which Hitler used as an excuse to suspend civil liberties and order mass arrests of his opponents.

President Erdogan reportedly told supporters at Istanbul’s international airport that the coup attempt was the work of the movement led by the exiled preacher Fethullah Gulen, which he denounced as “an armed terrorist organisation”.

He was quoted as calling the attempted coup "a gift from God," reportedly saying it would help cleanse the military of "members of the gang” who would “pay a heavy price for their treason”.

This immediately led many to fear that President Erdogan, who has previously been accused of persecuting critics, will use the coup as an excuse to further crack down on his opponents. Such fears are likely to be stoked by Turkish TV reports that 2,745 judges have been removed from their offices following the coup attempt.

Some observers have even begun specualting that the coup was stage-managed to give Mr Erdogan an opportunity to purge the military of opponents and increase his grip on Turkey."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/turkey-coup-conspiracy-theory-erdogan-military-gift-from-god-soldiers-istanbul-a7140516.html
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 17 July 2016 7:43:15 AM
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"While I am not in favour of military coups, this time I believe it was necessary" Shadow and the deaths of 160 people, just a bit of collateral damage, as the rabid right like to call it.
Here is a list of 35 US backed operations in foreign countries since WWII, please tell me which ones you approve of, and the ones you don't.

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 17 July 2016 9:08:16 AM
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The "coup" had a hollow ring from the start, and gave rise to the oxymoron of "Islamic democracy" over secular (the only kind of) democracy. "God is great" was the chant of the crowd.

Erdogan is pushing Turkey towards the Iranian model, where clerics will feature in the running of government.
Posted by Luciferase, Sunday, 17 July 2016 11:36:15 AM
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I can't say I'm too fond of Erdogan.
He seems way to authoritarian and hard line for me.
It wouldn't have bothered me if they'd gotten rid of him but the question arises what sort of ruler is he being replaced with.
Did Turkey and the world trade up or down?

Hey Poirot,
Thanks for posting that article.
I wouldn't discount the idea that Erdogan knew about the coup and allowed it to happen in order for his government to capitalise on it.
Also, it seems like a red flag that he has targeted those judges, like he may have wanted to do it anyway and used the coup as an excuse to do so.
He seems like the kind of guy that might do that and get away with it with the belief that he thinks he's smarter and more powerful than everyone else.

Hey Paul1405,
I oppose all the instances where a US government has covertly overthrown a democratically elected government but that's somewhat different to a country's military removing it's political leader.
So long as the coup hasn't been co-opted by a foreign entity; it would really depend on whether the military was removing a bad guy or installing one, to determine whether or not it was a good or bad thing.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 17 July 2016 5:57:15 PM
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Poirot,

Erdogan is nothing if not an opportunist. He certainly has used the coup attempt to move against the judiciary that opposed him, as he has against the press etc. He has now solidified his power to the point where he cannot be removed, and as LF has said is taking Turkey down the path of an Iranian or Saudi Theocracy.

Paul,

Sanctimonious finger wagging as usual. If Erdogan continues on this path, the dead from the coup will be a drop in the ocean in comparison.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 18 July 2016 5:40:08 AM
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Shadow, you may support the right of the West, particularly the United States, to instigate "regime change" in other countries whenever it feels it is in its interest to do so, but I don't. Was not Erdoğan democratically elected, for better or for worse, and i'm sure he's not that great. If the Turkish people want change then I would support the peaceful democratic process as the mechanism to achieve that change. What right do we have to decide who should govern where and when, who should live, and who should die? Is it Sanctimonious to support democracy.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 July 2016 7:48:04 AM
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Paul,

Notwithstanding that a certain fella slid into power democratically in Germany in the 30s - and went on to cause quite a stir.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 18 July 2016 8:41:33 AM
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"The President of Turkey has said democracy and freedom have “absolutely no value” in the country after calling for journalists, lawyers and politicians to be prosecuted as terrorists."

"In a speech to local politicians in Ankara, he criticised critics raising concern over Turkey’s record on “democracy, freedom and rule of law” as discussions over a landmark deal on the refugee crisis continue.

“For us, these phrases have absolutely no value any longer,” he said in the televised address, according to a translation by DPA."

"On Monday, the President had vowed to extend the legal definition of “terrorists” to include MPs, activists and journalists."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/president-erdogan-says-freedom-and-democracy-have-no-value-in-turkey-amid-arrests-and-military-a6938266.html

I think we can now safely assume that the word "democracy" can now be referred to in the past tense in any discussion associated with Turkey.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 18 July 2016 9:42:13 AM
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Paul,

In the same that you may support totalitarian regimes massacring civilians. I'm assuming that your massive ignorance of the situation has lead to such idiotic comments.

Erdogan was democratically elected, but in the last decade has been eviscerating the democratic system, first replacing the military with sympathisers, shutting down all dissent on TV and newspapers, jailing opposition members, and is now moving against the independence of the judiciary.

There is no longer any chance of free and fair elections in Turkey by which he can be removed, and the prospect of a coup now instead of a bloody civil war such as in Syria is by all means the lesser of two evils.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 18 July 2016 1:25:04 PM
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Hi Poirot,

As usual, I'm with you on this.

Whether Erdogan provoked this attempted coup or not, is neither here nor there: he will capitalise on it. After all, he's quoted as saying that democracy is like a bus: you get on it, and get off where you want to go.

Do you reckon that destroyed parliament building will get re-built in a hurry ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 18 July 2016 2:00:22 PM
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Islam, hence radical Islam, has now made headway into Europe whilst eating away at it from within.

Not a happy situation.
Posted by Luciferase, Monday, 18 July 2016 3:42:39 PM
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Poirot, in 1933 the World had no legitimate reason to overthrow Hitler, some time later it did, but that had nothing to do with his democratic election, it had more to with his warmongering.
Erdogan is not a nice guy by any measure, but who should have the authority to overthrow him, other than the Turkish people? I don't agree with the regime in Iran, but do we have the authority to subvert that regimes just because we don't agree with it?

Shadow, I do not support "totalitarian regimes massacring civilians" that's more your style. Turkey is a member of NATO, making it an ally of the US, again the type of regime I expect you to support, there have been plenty of bloody awful regimes past and present, you have supported.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 July 2016 7:08:47 PM
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Yes, I know that, Paul.

Was just noting that democratically elected govts sometimes morph into monsters....incrementally.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 18 July 2016 7:32:16 PM
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Humans are a savage warlike bunch.
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 18 July 2016 9:23:31 PM
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Hi Poirot, I grasp what you say about the democratically elected morphing into monsters, has happened many times, Mugabe in Zimbabwe a classic example.
In the West we see our democratic system of government as the ideal, and like some nineteenth centenary Christian missionaries we want to spread it far and wide. What I question is it what these "poor savages" need or are we simply kidding ourselves, that our form of democracy is find for us, but is it mostly unworkable in many countries for a variety of reasons. You need a lot more than a ballot box and slips of paper to make a democracy. What are your thoughts?
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 7:24:24 AM
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Paul, I think that missionary impulse might have withered since the 'Arab Spring'. Unless Islam can somehow be reformed - by Muslims, most fundamentally by allowing the analysis of the Koran by Muslims, the aspirations for 'democracy' in Muslim countries are almost as remote as the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' of distant memory.

Muslims are as entitled to democratically choose their own political leaders: the freedoms and equalities that we take for granted should, sooner or later, be available to everybody, but the path from A to B may be very long and very bitter for many of our fellow human beings.

Symbolically Erdogan stood on top of a stationary bus to give his victory speech. That can't be coincidence. It's going to be a long 'Muslim Winter'.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 10:01:54 AM
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Hi Joe,

"Muslims are as entitled to democratically choose their own political leaders: the freedoms and equalities that we take for granted should, sooner or later, be available to everybody"

Why? and if the majority are happy with a dictatorship or some other non democratic system. Why is that choice less preferable than our choice.

You said "but the path from A to B may be very long and very bitter for many of our fellow human beings." I will agree with that. Following the dismantling of colonialism in Africa post WWII, Britain bestowed freedom and democracy on a number of states, but nothing much else, and it failed
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 11:56:51 AM
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Hi Paul,

You ask " .... if the majority are happy with a dictatorship or some other non democratic system. Why is that choice less preferable than our choice."

Do you realise how contradictory that sounds ? 'A majority happy with dictatorship' ? Then why not put it to a vote ? Can you answer that ?

Let me answer it for you: 'because a dictatorship with majority support' is a myth, a fraud. And we will see that in the case of Turkey.

No democracy is, or ever will be, perfect. But any democracy, no matter how ramshackle and 'noisy', is streets ahead of the most 'benign' dictatorship.

Back in my Maoist days, I couldn't understand the title of one of Mao's pamphlets: 'On the People's Democratic Dictatorship'. If it was democratic, I thought, then why the need for a dictatorship ? A strongly vigilant democracy, yes, but dictatorship ? Of course, there never was, or has been anything like democracy in China, and it doesn't look like springing spontaneously into being in the foreseeable future.

What is a democracy, crudely speaking ? Some may say, a system where you get the people you vote for. No. You vote, and if you don't get the people you vote for, you cop it and try again next time, and keep trying. That interpretation is foreign to societies that have never had anything like democracy.

Bush & Co. naively believed that it would be so easy. Obama has probably swung the other way, or at least is aware that democracy has to be home-grown - and one could add, the outcome (f there is one) of a very long and brutal learning experience.

To repeat, and avoid your need for a straw-man, "No democracy is, or ever will be, perfect. But any democracy, no matter how ramshackle and 'noisy', is streets ahead of the most 'benign' dictatorship.'

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 12:51:51 PM
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Joe, you offer an opinion that the Western democratic model is superior to all other. but offer no evidence. Even for the west, the present system with its universal suffrage is relatively new, as little as about 100 years ago voting was restricted to an elite, landowners, males. Governments reflected the interests of a small minority, hardly democratic. it was a long process involving wars and revolutions to build the version of democracy we enjoy today. I suspect certain conditions of equality need to exist in a society before the a system of democracy can survive and flourish. Unfortunately for much of the world, the necessary conditions to foster a true democracy as we know it do not exists, Turkey could be such a country.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 3:22:01 PM
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It is amazing how racist the greens are, not only do they boycott Jews, but they deem that it is OK for other cultures to suffer tyrants and dictators.

So Paul the answer is that it is not OK for any dictatorship, and it would be impossible to determine whether a majority of people supported it, as they can no longer say so. I doubt Erdogan would be have been elected in originally if the people knew what he would do.

There is no dictatorship or single party state that has improved the lot of the subjects either in living conditions, human rights or environmental protection.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 3:57:26 PM
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Hi Paul,

You claim: "Joe, you offer an opinion that the Western democratic model is superior to all other, but offer no evidence....."

and then rebut yourself:

"Even for the west, the present system with its universal suffrage is relatively new, as little as about 100 years ago voting was restricted to an elite, landowners, males. Governments reflected the interests of a small minority, hardly democratic. It was a long process involving wars and revolutions to build the version of democracy we enjoy today."

Well, yes, that's precisely what I have been trying to get through to you. But claim it as your own original idea if you like :)

Actually, I'll correct you on one point: when men got the vote in Australia - at least, in South Australia - regardless of property, Aboriginal men also got the vote. When women got the vote here in 1894, Aboriginal women also got the vote.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 4:48:26 PM
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On the Turkey Coup:

There's 2 theories of what happened might have happened.

the first is that Erdogan orchestrated the coup himself to capitalise on the fallout.

The second is that the US orchestrated the coup which isn't out of the question either.

The US is refusing to hand over Gulen, the person Erdogan has accused over the coup. (he lives in Pennsylvania)
Erdogan says he will attack any nation that defends him. (ie the US)
One of the coup plotters has asked for asylum in the US.
Erdogan had stopped movement in and out of Incirlik air base and locked the US out from their nukes, but I believe the access has been restored.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 8:37:45 PM
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Some more info:
There's talk that this may have been a dry run for a second coup attempt.
Its also come to light that there are 42 missing Turkish helicopters.

http://sputniknews.com/news/20160717/1043162524/helicopters-turkey-coup-erdogan-weapons.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxpuotIMlY0

It's also interesting that the US removing the families of military personnel out of Turkey for the last few months as well.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/29/politics/pentagon-orders-military-families-to-leave-southern-turkey/
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 9:00:43 PM
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Shadow, do you now admit Liberal Party support for the American backed one party regime in South Vietnam, and the associated murder of more than a million people in a totally unjustified war was a mistake. I love the hypocritical way a Liberal like SM will take the moral high ground when it comes to freedom and democracy, yet forget how he supported trumped up dictators and despots in the past. Ferdinand Marcos and The Shah of Iran to name just two. Oh! and there was your one time support for Saddam Hussein and the Taliban.

Thanks for that Joe about SA. Is Turkey ready for an injection of democracy western style here and now, or will they rather op for something else, given the existing condition in their country is there much choice.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 19 July 2016 9:53:52 PM
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Hi Pau,

I would have thought that any thoughts of " .... an injection of democracy western style ...." would have been well and truly buried after Bush's invasion of Iraq, and the failure of the 'Arab Spring'.

Any tiny steps towards the recognition of the rights of ALL citizens to express their political wishes through the ballot box in Arab/Muslim countries will have to come from the people themselves - in their reformation of Islam, in the first instance.

In Europe, much of that struggle for separation of church and state, and for the recognition of the rights of all individuals, culminated in the Thirty Years' War, 1618-1648, in which proportionally more people were killed than in the First World War, whole regions resorted to cannibalism and much of Europe was completely depopulated.

I hope that Arabs/Muslims don't have to go through all that devastation as well before they agree to recognise the equal worth of all of their fellow citizens, regardless of religious affiliation.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 10:08:27 AM
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Erdogan has now moved to normalise relations with Iran and Russia, and there's talk about Turkey leaving NATO, I assume he feels the coup was done on behalf of Gulen and the CIA.
Apparently the coup was rushed forward because the plotters believed they had been found out, which was why it was unsuccessful
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 10:56:44 AM
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Hi AC,

The word 'Byzantine' isn't applied to the convolutions and twists and turns and betrayals of politics for nothing :) What's the bet that Erdogan knew what was about to occur, how many were involved, where they planned to strike, etc., from the inside ?

As for his 'near-death' experience, my memory is faulty but didn't Hitler barely 'survive' an 'assassination attempt' in 1934, perhaps by his erstwhile cronies, the SA ? Or the Communists ? Or the Jews ? Or homosexuals ? Or left-handers ? Well, it worked for him, so why not for Erdogan ?

As a Sunni Islamist, his sucking up to Shi'ite Iran, and to Orthodox-Christian Russia, is mildly surprising. Still opportunism and 'Byzantine politics' go hand in hand, I suppose.

Rough days ahead in Turkey :(

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 11:14:08 AM
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Paul,

Typical Paul tactics of avoiding the issue. I was not talking about ancient history, rather today's clear and present racism by the greens.

Obviously you feel that the muslims are culturally inferior and not deserving of a free and democratic society, clearly you believe that Saddam Hussein Gaddafi, and Bashar al-Assad should have been allowed to murder and torture their citizens according to their culture.

Is there any point at which the greens will say enough is enough?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 12:46:52 PM
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Paul1405,
Here's a bit of the backstory on Vietnam for Shadow Minister.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/TONKIN.html

The Shah of Iran was a US puppet ruler who was installed because of western interest's in Iranian oil.
The democratically elected leader of Iran, Muhammad Mosaddeq was overthrown by the CIA in 1953.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh
Its interesting you mention it because they probably wouldn't have gone as 'Islamic' as what they did with the Iranian revolution.
- This is notable in light of the possibility that the US may have been behind the Turkish coup, and if so it's another borderline democratic country they they have now pushed towards being an Islamic dictatorship.

The Chilcot report details how the US war in Iraq was again about oil.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Chilcot-Report-UK-Oil-Interests-Were-Lead-Motive-for-Iraq-War.html
Saddam was going to move away from the Petrodollar and had begun selling in the Euro.
Take this article from 2000, he was under sanctions for supposed WMD's that never existed.
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html
Take the 'baby's in incubators' lie, false testimony to justify a war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)
Wesley Clarks testimony about planned M/E wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

Libya was pushed by Sarkozy, Clinton and Obama to stop Ghaddafi plans for a gold based Dinar proven from her emails.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-emails-gold-dinars-and-arab-springs/5535232

I could show you tons more stuff, its all out there for anyone who looks.
The people are never given the real reasons for wars, its all based on lies, frauds and deceipt.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 20 July 2016 3:34:16 PM
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AC,

I think you missed a few conspiracy theories. There is also one where the Americans were behind 9/11.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 21 July 2016 9:31:03 AM
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//I think you missed a few conspiracy theories. There is also one where the Americans were behind 9/11.//

And the one where the Queen is a lizard XD. I saw in the paper that David Icke is touring Australia at the moment. I assume you have front row seats, AC.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 21 July 2016 9:58:24 AM
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Hi AC,

Saddam's Iraq invaded Kuwait. That's an act of war by one country against another. Kuwait was fully entitled to invite whoever the hell it liked to come to its defence, incubators or not. I was hoping that the Yanks would keep going right to Baghdad, which, as an ally of Kuwait, they would have been entitled to do under the Geneva Convention.

And no, I didn't support the invasion of Iraq twelve years later: the moment had passed. Although, now in 2016, I'm suspicious that Saddam actually did have SOME WMDs and moved them into Syria in the months before Bush's invasion. So strictly speaking, no, he didn't have WMDs at the time the place was invaded. As well, like bullies everywhere, and the Wizard of Oz, he bullsh!tted about his power and even about his brutality, so the jury may be still out on whether he had, or didn't have, as much as he boasted.

But back to Turkey: I suspect that Erdogan and the AKP stage-managed the 'coup' as a pretext for moving even more to the Right (Yes, Poirot ! It's possible that Islamism is actually quite right-wing !), that democracy is now dead in Turkey (or unquietly resting), AND that ISIS will not launch any of its attacks in Turkey for the foreseeable future. Except against the odd day-care centre or old peoples' home, perhaps; real heroes.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 21 July 2016 10:08:40 AM
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Shadow, your only response to AC's material is a bit of derision about 9/11. What a poor rebuttal, in fact no rebuttal at all.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 21 July 2016 10:08:43 AM
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Loudmouth,

"...Although, now in 2016, I'm suspicious that Saddam actually did have SOME WMDs and moved them into Syria in the months before Bush's invasion. So strictly speaking, no, he didn't have WMDs at the time the place was invaded...."

How about you educate yourself on the matter....the whole scenario was "cooked up" by Bush and Co yonks before the invasion.

" * By mid-July 2002, eight months before the war began, President Bush had decided to invade and occupy Iraq.

* Bush had decided to “justify” the war “by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD.”

* Already “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.”

* Many at the top of the administration did not want to seek approval from the United Nations (going “the UN route”).

* Few in Washington seemed much interested in the aftermath of the war."

As was further confirmed by the recently released Chilcot Report.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2005/06/09/the-secret-way-to-war/
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 21 July 2016 11:05:23 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Yes, I agree with you. Of course, Bush, Cheney et al. planned to invade Iraq immediately after 9/11. Personally, I think they should have simply bought him off, brought him on-side (since Islamists were their common enemy) and kissed his arse well and truly, to make Iraq a pro-US haven against Islamism. Yes, pure opportunism. But water under the bridge.

But even so, it's still possible that as of 9/11 - Saddam had a variety of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, which he choofed over the Syrian border when it looked like the Yanks were going to invade. And would have choofed back if the Yanks hadn't. After all, he still had some Kurds to gas.

But keep fighting yesterday's wars, Poirot, it's such fun, and so safe, to stick it up all of your favourite Evil Empires.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 21 July 2016 11:26:01 AM
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Loudmouth,

"But keep fighting yesterday's wars, Poirot, it's such fun, and so safe, to stick it up all of your favourite..."

Lol!...you're the guy who waxed lyrical on the subject...

But I forgot...if Joe wants to veer off the immediate subject, that's okay - because he gives himself permission.

BTT
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 21 July 2016 11:53:21 AM
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You're good value Toni, I often get a good laugh from your comments.

No, I'm actually not front and centre at the David Icke show FYI, though I will admit I was almost tempted to watch a new video of these recent shows that he's uploaded to youtube, but I just couldn't be bothered.
I don't go in for all that reptilian and human consciousness kind of crap he often talks about.
But some of his other stuff like Rothchild Zionism, and geopolitical stuff has been interesting.
I think he tried to oust the pedophilia going on among high profile individuals a long time before it actually came out in the media.
For me I've kind of taken all the useful stuff he had on offer years ago and he's become 'stale' to me.

I stay away from the satanic conspiracy type stuff (though there is definitely some weird questionable stuff going on amongst the elite at Bohemian Grove) and the crazy conspiracy stuff such as faked moon landings and ridiculous flat earth type crap...
I couldn't be bothered getting into 9/11, but I think its fairly obvious we weren't given the whole truth there.
My preferred 'conspiracy theory' type interest (just so you know) is geopolitical, global government, NWO type topics - and most of this stuff is factually based.

Loudmouth,
I'll have to brush up on my history on the specifics of Iraq and Kuwait.
Back then I was a bit younger didn't take as much interest in geoploitical stuff.
But thanks for pointing it out, I'll read up on it when I find time.

I think we are both reading the situation in Turkey mostly the same.
I did in fact hear another potential possibility last night, where it could all be a ruse.
Its about those judges he removed, (I knew something didn't smell right there) and of the US and NATO wanting Turkey to change their constitution.
Watch the second half of this video and let me know what you think.
https://youtu.be/pveDX7ZVIwU?t=13m58s
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 21 July 2016 12:39:40 PM
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Thanks Poirot, yes, back to topic.

Hi AC,

I enjoy conspiracy theories, I've read most of Ludlum's thrillers, but don't put any trust in any current conspiracy theory.

In Turkey, (I think) Erdogan is his own man, he is not anybody's puppet. Crazy as it might seem, he is out to build Turkey as a world power, responding differently to the situations in the Middle east and Central Asia, with the long-term aim of destroying Russia, and US influence in his region, however broad it may seem to him. Then onto Greece, Bulgaria and the Balkans.

So he feints towards Russia, Israel, even Iran (and they probably know it). He uses ISIS, even if it seems temporarily to rival to his ambitions to set up his own Caliphate in Istanbul. Like all imperialists, he plans to get back whatever territory, anywhere, was once, no matter for how short a time, a part of some Turkic Empire, Seljuk, Mongol, Tatar, Golden Horde, Ottoman or whatever. If he needs to suck up to Israel today, he'll turn on them whenever it's timely to do so. Watch him put pressure on the Yanks to leave Incirlik.

See ? Conspiracy theories are easy and they're fun ! Everybody should have one !

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 21 July 2016 1:26:45 PM
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Paul,

Some posts simply deserve scorn.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 21 July 2016 3:28:20 PM
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Shadow, I found AC's link on the so called Gulf of Tonkin incident to be well presented and believable. Many historical sources confirm that President Johnson for political purposes lied to the world, then used those lies as justification for American escalation of the Vietnam War. The Australian Liberal Government was a willing participant in an unjustified war based on lies. Will the Liberal Party ever apologize for it wrongful support of a disgusting war, that seen 521 Australians killed, and over 3,000 wounded. Or like you, will they simply pass it off as "ancient history".
The Yanks sent the believable Mr Nice Guy, Colin Powell to the UN to tell bare faced lies about Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. You would have swallowed that garbage, hook line and sinker. There are now those who are calling for the prosecution of Bush, Blair and Howard as war criminals, would you support that?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 22 July 2016 7:47:03 AM
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Hi Paul,

Isn't it fun to fight yesterday's wars ? If you do it often enough, maybe you can reverse history. No, it's more fun flogging dead horses.

Turkey, 2016. I'm not sure what Johnson's attacks on Vietnam have to do with that. Anyway, meanwhile in Turkey, Erdogan seems to be reprising the steps taken in one part of Europe eighty-odd years ago, to silence all opposition and impose the sort of dictatorship that you are so enthusiastic about: 'dictatorships trump democracies' ?

So first it's the military and the intellectuals and teachers, then who ? All remaining Jews ? Christians ? Non-Sunni Muslims ? Then onto the homosexuals ? Gypsies ? And certainly the Kurds ? So much for your 'popular dictatorships', Paul.

Just when we're about to get a fruit-cake in the White House, when China is about to flout international law, just when Putin is about to launch the big one against Ukraine, this happens. It's enough to make one half-believe in some Divine Conspiracy Theory. Or Divine Practical Joke: maybe Allah and God are competing to see who can bugger up humanity the most. Yuk yuk.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 22 July 2016 10:45:37 AM
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Paul,

I don't doubt that you believe it, as a greens supporter it is necessary to be able to believe a vast array of fantasies.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 22 July 2016 2:30:28 PM
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I'm starting to feel as though the coup may have been engineered on purpose not to remove Erdogan, but in order to allow him to purge the judges, change the constitution and invade Syria, in line with the United States 'Plan B' for Syria which Kerry has stated is due to begin August 1st.
- I don't have any news articles or videos to back this opinion up with, and I most certainly could be wrong, but it's just a feeling I've got.

Also I may have gotten it wrong earlier when I mentioned the US had gotten access back to the 50 B1 nuclear bombs stored at Incirlik, I'm not completely sure they have.

And as a side topic, since Vietnam was mentioned earlier...
I this morning remembered another conspiracy theory I heard ages ago.
I'll share it just for fun, it's about the missing US POW's.

Apparently at the conclusion of the war a deal was made where the US was to pay restitution to the North Vietnamese in exchange for the POW's.
Fearing that the US would not keep their end of the deal, the North withheld some of the POW's.
The US falsely claimed to the American people that all POW's had been returned when in fact they had not, and the restitution to the North had not been paid.
This created a political nightmare that got worse and worse as time went by in that if the unreturned soldiers came back, the government would have to admit it lied and didn't keep it's end of the deal.
So the restitution to the North was never paid, and the unreturned serviceman were hung out to dry...

True or Untrue? Who knows?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 24 July 2016 10:42:18 AM
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Armchair Critic,

"I'm starting to feel as though the coup may have been engineered on purpose not to remove Erdogan, but in order to allow him to purge the judges, change the constitution..."

"- I don't have any news articles or videos to back this opinion up with, and I most certainly could be wrong, but it's just a feeling I've got."

That was pretty much the first theory out of the blocks, hot on the heels of the actual attempted coup.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/turkey-coup-conspiracy-theory-erdogan-military-gift-from-god-soldiers-istanbul-a7140516.html

"Conspiracy theorists are saying the attempted military coup in Turkey was faked, after President Recep Tayyip Erdogan reportedly called it “a gift from Allah”.

Social media users have compared the coup attempt in which more than 160 people are thought to have died to the Reichstag fire – the 1933 arson attack on the German parliament building which Hitler used as an excuse to suspend civil liberties and order mass arrests of his opponents.

President Erdogan reportedly told supporters at Istanbul’s international airport that the coup attempt was the work of the movement led by the exiled preacher Fethullah Gulen, which he denounced as “an armed terrorist organisation”.

He was quoted as calling the attempted coup "a gift from God," reportedly saying it would help cleanse the military of "members of the gang” who would “pay a heavy price for their treason”.

This immediately led many to fear that President Erdogan, who has previously been accused of persecuting critics, will use the coup as an excuse to further crack down on his opponents. Such fears are likely to be stoked by Turkish TV reports that 2,745 judges have been removed from their offices following the coup attempt."

Many more judges and officials have been stood down since - schools closed, bookshops ransacked....
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 24 July 2016 10:56:09 AM
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Hi Poirot,

Here's a really idiotic Conspiracy Theory of my own:

1. Erdogan wants to be both Cailiff and Sultan, Head of State AND Head of Islam, i.e. to enforce Caesaro-Papism.

2. He will manoeuvre to re-build the old Ottoman Empire: i.e. re Syria, he will arm the weakest side in order to keep the whole thing going until there isn't much left of the place, or equally of Assad's forces, ISIS, the Kurds or the other pro-democratic forces. He's an equal-opportunity imperialist, opposed to alternative views on religion, any dictatorships other than his own, nationalism and democracy. Similarly Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine.

3. He will take time now to consolidate his control of the military, and to eliminate all democratic freedoms within Turkey. Then he will wave the cudgels.

4. He will co-operate with any other country if and when it suits him; then act, when it suits him.

I'd suggest that he has five years.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 24 July 2016 11:33:33 AM
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Hey Poirot,
Yeah, but they didn't give a reason why he might've staged it.
If he did (and I don't know that he did) my thoughts are that he did so to change the constitution to accommodate the US's coming 'Plan B' to invade Syria in August without having to deal with the usual government opposition.

But like I said I could be wrong, and probably am.
It could just as well be a US op that went bad and now Erdogan is peeved at the US, has no interest in joining the EU anymore as its going to fall apart anyway and maybe he just wants to go back to the way things were, at least for the time being.

It's as though I expect the Sultan to do something sneaky and snidely though so, anyway there it is.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 24 July 2016 10:00:33 PM
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One more thought,
You can be sure Erdogan isn't fond of the US relationship with the Kurds.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 24 July 2016 10:02:46 PM
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Hi Joe,

You seem to pick and choose what is yesterdays and what is relevant to today, when it suits. Somewhere you were going on about Marxism of 1870 and events of 1520. Maybe you were flogging a dead horse with that. As for Vietnam, many Australian's who suffered because of that war, and I don't include you and Shadow in that number received no recognition or compensation, which they were deserving of. Much of that had more to do with conservatives wanting to forget the shame of Vietnam and Australia's disastrous involvement.

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."
Winston Churchill.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 25 July 2016 7:28:43 AM
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Hi Paul,

George Santayana.

Re Marx and the Paris Commune: I forget what thread that's on, or what the discussion was about, but it was probably something to do with the anachronism of applying Marx's core ideas from 1847 in 2016. Probably I wrote something about how the failure of the Paris Commune in 1871 may have given a hint to Marx and Engels that it wasn't going to be a straightforward matter to overthrow the capitalist state.

145 years later ? Marx would have learnt a hell of a lot in that time, as capitalism, technology, 'the working class', etc. evolved out of all recognition from 1871. As we approach his bicentenary in 2018, it makes sense for any followers to try to do the same.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 25 July 2016 10:39:10 AM
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Whether the coup was planned by Erdogan or not, the result is the same. It has given Erdogan an excuse to purge Turkish society of all opposition to his tyranny.

However, I don't believe that there is any evidence to show that he did.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 25 July 2016 1:27:11 PM
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http://www.news.com.au/world/reports-turkish-troops-have-sealed-off-incirlik-usnato-nuclear-air-base/news-story/4d7bb16e4e86842218b5b0d7d70f582b

Interesting... 7000 Turkish troops surround Incirlik
Posted by Armchair Critic, Tuesday, 2 August 2016 6:20:24 PM
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