Dear DreamOn,

The ones that "turned back the boats" on those fleeing the Nazis are now either dead or in their 90's.

It might be unpleasant to live among them, but then in order to live only among those that I am happy to live among, I might have to kick out the other 90%...

So assuming we chuck out the window all moral considerations and take the liberty to only invite those whom we feel we like to live among, please allow me to dream too! My very personal and fantastic immigration policy at my pleasure would be:

1. No smokers. Anyone who smoked in the last 10 years will be ineligible to come to Australia, even as a visitor and those who arrive must swear that they will never smoke, so if they ever do, they will be immediately deported and even lose their Australian citizenship.
(this, truly incidentally, would exclude a large proportion of Arab/Muslim males, so you may actually like it)

2. All others may arrive, but must commit not to listen to loud anti-music.

3. No citizenship and no financial/economic benefits for the first 10 years, except for vegetarians who will be exempt and may apply for citizenship straight away.

Will you vote for me?

Dream on, given your 'white trash' statement, I will let you alone to continue 'dreaming on'.

As for your crack at employers, just remember, employing is a voluntary act and without those among us who create the jobs, those in this country who are not 'white trash' will find it very difficult to keep their tax payer funded lives of waste and abuse in place.

Of cause you could go back 200 years and try to invent something, but there are only so many hours in a day to waste, arn't there.

DreamOn wrote: "I am wondering *David F* how is it that you are happy to live among these people? These are the ones that "turned back the boats" on those fleeing the Nazis."

Dear DreamOn,

I would be uncomfortable living among angels because I am not one myself. I also would not condemn all people for the actions of some of them. All Germans were not Nazis. All Muslims are not ISIS. All Americans are not imperialists. All people can be seized by madness and ask when it's over, "Why did we do that?" The Australians in government who refused to admit those fleeing the Nazis are probably all dead now. Their spirit is still alive, but all Australians do not share that spirit. Those who have that spirit are still human beings and may change. I think there has been a remarkable change among many Germans who have rejected the horrible attitudes of many of their ancestors. At 90 I am not the same person I was at 20

rehctub wrote: "David, a refugee is someone fleeing persecution. If this is the case, why do they pass so many other peaceful nations to get to ours, if it's not for the handouts?"

Dear rehctub,

Apparently you don't appreciate all Australia has to offer. A few years ago I gave a paper at the University of Queensland. A Malaysian professor also gave a paper. Afterwards we retired to the University bar to have some drinks. He thought it was great to go into a bar and have a few drinks. He couldn't do that in Malaysia because of the Muslim ban against alcohol. He told me he was an atheist. However, if he was open about that he would lose his job and his family would be on the outs with him. Australia offers a degree of freedom of speech and religion that none of the peaceful countries to the north offer. Since you have not been denied it you may not appreciate it. Forums such as online opinion in the countries north of us are monitored by the government. If you say something the government doesn't like you can find yourself in the poky or worse. In olo you can say anything you like. The only restriction is that Graham will bounce you if he thinks you are viciously attacking another person.

People may value freedom more than handouts. Please read "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She came from East Africa to the Netherlands and was taken by the freedom and openness in Dutch society compared to her original society. A few years ago a couple we were friendly with suggested going in together and getting some property in Indonesia. In Indonesia with our combined income we could have a staff of servants and luxurious quarters much better than in either Australia or the United States. I would not live in Indonesia if I could live ten times as well there as I do here. I appreciate the freedom in Australia, and I am sure that some who want to come here feel the same way.

Posted by *David F* Friday, 17 June 2016 3:44:33 PM

" ... Those who have that Spirit are still human beings and may change. ... "

I accept what you say for the most part *DF* I would add that on balance and relatively speaking they treat me well enough. But, it is how they are treating others that deeply concerns me.

And that is why I Demonize them.

(and I am not yet convinced by arguments that state that it is always wrong to Demonize.)

A footnote to that it is not acceptable to me to hide behind the veil of polite society whilst concurrently committing Human Rights abuses.

How many child abuse complaints were not recognised by relevant parties because the people complaining were not "speaking nicely." People who use that as an excuse to dismiss serious complaints are in my opinion little better than the perpetrators of the original offence.

Anyway, it begs the question does it not, why should we care how the guvment treats others if they are being nice enough to us personally?

..

re: Indonesia though, it is a place I go to heal, rest and recuperate. And they are far more Free than us in many ways. I would share in detail with you more about my views on that if you are interested but it really deserve its own thread. Exactly what do we mean when we talk about Freedom?

..

*RehTub*

Choosing to employ people is also like travelling. If you can't afford travel insurance, you can't afford to travel.

And if you can't afford to pay at least the lawful minimal amounts in toto, then you can't afford to employ.

Crime and Punishment. The majority of us I would say have had a gut full of the contempt of the law that the business community continues to demonstrate particularly in relation to time, wages and conditions.

David, I do appreciate what Australia has to offer, because I help provide what it is we enjoy.

Your argument is clearly directed towards illegals, not immigrants, and as you have rightfully clarified, not refugees.

You have clearly made reference to what we have to offer, commonly know as 'the carrot'. So, these people go from refugee to illegal the moment the pass by the first safe haven.

An illegal is one who illegally enters our waters, whereas an immigrant is one who applies to immigration, waits the result of the scrutiny process, then either gets rejected, or accepted.

But I do thank you for clearing that up David, because it much easier to have a sensible debate when we are both on the same page.

So having established that, you have still not confirmed if we have a water shortage because if we do, the last thing we need is more illegals.