To Australia’s shame, a five man bench of the Papua New Guinea's Supreme Court has ruled Australia's detention of asylum seekers on Manus Island is illegal. The court found the Australian detention centre on the island breached PNG’s constitution which guarantees a person’s human rights. 850 men are being forcibly detained, half of which have already been found to be refugees.

The court has ordered that;

"Both the Australian and Papua New Guinea governments shall forthwith take all steps necessary to cease and prevent the continued unconstitutional and illegal detention of the asylum seekers or transferees at the relocation centre on Manus Island and the continued breach of the asylum seekers or transferees constitutional and human rights," the judges ordered.

In a provocative move Australia’s Immigration Minister Peter Dutton said no detainees would be resettled in Australia... Greens immigration spokesperson Sarah Hanson-Young has called for all remaining detainees to be brought to Australia. Senator Hanson-Young told the ABC "the game was up" and Mr. Turnbull has to listen to legal and humanitarian experts.
Australia must … promptly shut the centre down and transport all of the detainees to Australia for processing of their claims for asylum.
"Really the Government now has no other option but to bring the people left there to Australia and allow them to apply for an Australian visa," she said.
Independent MP Andrew Wilkie has backed Sarah Hanson-Young calls, describing offshore processing as "a gaping hole in Australia's soul".
"Australia must immediately respect the court ruling, promptly shut the centre down and transport all of the detainees to Australia for processing of their claims for asylum," Mr. Wilkie said.

It would be interesting to look at the Greens financial expenditures.

We all know that PNG has the best legal system money can buy!

Glory be to God!

Had I been one of those incarcerated victims of the bloody Australian government, I would not have wanted to ever set foot in the country which did this to me any to my family.

Don't bother bringing anyone to Australia for further detention - just unlock all the doors and leave the place immediately in shame: take the first flight back - or better still, travel back on a boat like the ones you captured!

Those opportunist economic migrants are being helped by political interests to challenge forever.

Just to show how false the SPBs are, one who said he was happy to go to PNG now says he wants to go back to Manus where he was 'happier'. Of course the real story would be that he has his finger on the pulse and he still hopes to win that lottery of lotteries, a lifetime on Centrelink, free housing and medical and no worries for life (certainly NO work) through getting a foot in Oz.

There is nothing "provocative" about Dutton repeating what has been known for some time: no illegals will be settled in Australia. If PNG has decided that their government has acted unconstitutionally, they can release the detainees into the PNG population or send them back to their own countries. As Dutton said, there are not coming here to bludge off us, and that is that. Dutton and the government should learn from PNG's tom foolery, and allow no illegal boats in our waters, turning back any attempts to come here. Where the the boats go after that should be of no concern to us. Let the country they first impose themselves on deal with them, according to international law. There is no freedom to country-shop.

Papua New Guinea was stupid to have agreed to take asylum seekers from Australia in the first place and should have said so at the time.

These asylum seekers were Australia's problem, and they are now our problem still.
This Government needs to grow a pair and take responsibility for these people. They have already wasted millions of dollars on offshore 'processing' already.

If any of these people have been found to be refugees, then settle them here and be done with it. I am sick of the whole mess and the embarrassment this Government has caused for us.

Dear Suse,

<<I am sick of the whole mess and the embarrassment this Government has caused for us.>>

It's none of your own doing, so why take it personally?

We all have about 100 trillion bacteria in our guts and some of those do cause us mild discomfort: we have to live with it but it would be silly to allow this to become a source of embarrassment.

Suseonline,
If I turn up on your doorstep, will you feed, clothe and house me?

Just because I show up on your doorstep does not make me your problem.
I see no reason why you shouldn't slam the door in my face, tell me to get lost and explain that I'm 'not your problem'.

Maybe if you give me an inch I will take a mile.
Next thing you know, I've got my feet up on the couch and control of the remote, and I'm drinking milk out of the bottle and emptying out your pantry and leaving a mess all over the kitchen bench and crumbs and garbage all over your coffee table, couch and loungeroom floor.

Will you still think it was a good idea to have let me in the door?

I do think that we need to find a better solution to all this because I don't think the current policy is working all that well for anyone.

Hi Suse,

Manus Island was always nothing more than a political solution to what is a humanitarian problem. The political reality was, and Rudd could see it, with the right aided by their media lackeys pushing the fear button, and a general undertone of suspension of "boat people" within the Australian community, Rudd knew he had to plug the gap that his political opponents were successfully exploiting to the hilt, all to his governments detriment.
Right on our doorstep we have one of the poorest countries in the world, in Papua New Guinea. It would not have taken all that much effort by the Rudd Government to convince the PNG government of the merits of their scheme, particularly the financial merits for the dirt poor nation to our north. PNG were actually in the better position than Australia on this. This court decision does not really affect them, they can simply tell Australia to take their problem elsewhere, but there will be no cash refund.
BTW, at the moment about half of the 850 people on Manus have been shown to be genuine refugees, and the other half are still awaiting processing. "Houston, we have a problem".

Suseonline,
I want to take this scenario a step further.

What if I knew in advance that you were the type of guillible fool that would take pity on me and open the door an let me in?
Where do you think I'm headed?
- Your place of course.

And what if you got sick and tired of me taking liberties and expecting a free ride and making a mess over the place and tried to get me to move on.

What if I repay your kindness by stealing from you and wrecking up your place or threatening violence or standing over you or make up stories about you to discredit you or claiming squatters rights?

Maybe I never gave a crap about you or your kindness in the first place and only ever cared about what I could get.

Wouldn't you feel foolish them?
But it wouldn't matter, because I already got my foot in the door.

You can be the do-gooder and hold the moral high ground by advocating to open the door, but you're skating on thin ice in a manner that you may be advocating for a position that one day we may all regret.

We may end up resenting those who promoted it and allowed it to happen a whole lot more than those foreigners who became the problem.

You may think you mean well have the moral high ground, but one day you might be HATED as being weak and naive for doing exactly that.
..Just my 2 cents, nothing personal and no offense intended.

Armchair Critic, do you really expect any fair minded person to answer your emotive charged "scenario", more a rant than a scenario.
I'll put a question to you. Did you take one of Hitler's anti Jewish speeches of the 1930's and reword it to fit your "scenario"
Oh! how dare you Paul1405 compare me to Hitler, I'm nothing like Hitler! Yes you are, unpleasant as it may be, you are exactly the same different time, different place. the only difference is Hitler had power, and you don't.
Feel free to vent your spleen on me now. Water off a ducks back.

Yep, close down Manus Island.

Tell the Pseudo Refugees to pick another Country & go there at their own expense, you are not coming here. Then pack 'em off.

That'll save Australia millions that can be spent on Health, Education & much needed Infrastructure.

Simple solution, take them in small batches to Darwin, hand them travel
documents to either their first safe country, Turkey, Iran, or wherever
or their national country and a one way plane ticket.
If the destination country tries to refuse entry, just refuse to accept
them back.
The airlines will refuse to accept them as they have no visa.
They may end up living in the transit lounge for a while, but they
should have thought of that before they bought tickets to Indonesia
and destroyed their passports.
They could be returned to Indonesia as that was their last port of call.

Noone attempting to arrive by boat is Australia's responsibility. It is made quite clear that people can seek asylum only in countries they first arrive in, and there is no requirement for them to be granted asylum. None of these boats has come directly to Australia, and the only reason for the mess and confusion of the PNG/Manus Island situation is the lack of determination by the Australian government to adhere to international law. The weakness of successive Australian governments has encouraged the bleeding hearts, the do-gooders, the Fifth Columnists and looney - left, to perpetrate the LIE that these invaders are our responsibility. One of the few things Australia has left in its favour are our ocean borders. But even this advantage has been blown by politicians too gutless to repel illegal arrivals. It's bad enough that the stupid hausfrau, Merkel, flouted international law because she didn't have strong national borders; it is stupid beyond belief when really stupid Australian politicians cannot get rid of would be invaders with our natural, watery barriers.

meanwhile millions wait to come here legally. No outrage from the lefties. They seem to favour tyrants and economic refugees.

Dear Paul,

Who is responsible for asylum seekers detained on
Manus? According to Fact Check - both PNG and
Australia are due to the agreements they've both
signed.

The following link may also be of interest:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-27/future-of-men-on-manus-island-remains-in-limbo/7361682

Manus Province Tourism

Paradise in the Tropics.

Things to see;

Lorengau: Most of the town’s main services and the market are near the wharf, while the provincial government buildings and main accommodation are a kilometre east, along the edge of the harbour.

Loniu Passage and Cave: One great experience is climbing through the large caverns of the Loniu cave. The cave is just 30 seconds of the main road at Loniu, Los Negros Island, about 10 minutes by vehicle from Lorengau Town. It is a limestone cave system there has several large chambers.

War relics: Manus was the site of a huge Allied Naval base during World War II. Rusting war vehicles, old wharves, old airstrips, bomb shelters, pontoons, bullets, old guns, helmets and World War II boats, can be found scattered on the various islands of Manus. Places to visit include the Lombrum Naval Base where you can find anti-aircraft guns, old hangers and General MacArthur’s Head Quarters and more in the surrounding areas. Momote Airport and the bushes of the Los Negros Island are littered with war surplus.

Culture: The Manus Provincial Show is held over three days in late August. Alternatively, you may be able to watch traditional dancing at Buyang, a village at the centre of the island.

Things to Do

Diving and snorkelling: Most of the north coast is bordered with a reef and the excellent visibility allows great Papua New Guinea diving and snorkelling.

Swimming: For a freshwater dip during your Papua New Guinea holiday, the best place is the waterfall and swimming hole, about 5 kilometres up the Lorengau River from town. Stunning swimming beaches can be found at Salamei on Rarah Island and Tulu on the north coast west of Lorengau.

Island hopping: All the islands of Manus are interesting. Some are large and have large populations living on them.

Cycling in Manus: The roads in Manus, by local standards, are in great condition and are sealed mainly in town and along the way to Momote airport.

Accommodation: A variety of hotels, lodge style accommodation and village guest houses are available.

Paul,

Anyone comparing anyone else to Hitler is usually a retard trying to shut the argument down because they have no reasoned response.

The reality is that the government still has several options other than bringing the illegals to Aus including shipping them to Nauru which has been slowly emptying.

Anyone remembering the massive loss of over 1200 men, women and children due to the Labor/Greens disgraceful border control incompetence cannot in good conscience let it happen again

SM: Anyone remembering the massive loss of over 1200 men, women and children due to the Labor/Greens disgraceful border control incompetence cannot in good conscience let it happen again.

Why not. It got rid of some of them permanently, mostly Jihadi aged men. Perhaps we could pay the Asylum Seeker Pushers to sink the boats once they got out of sight of land like they do in the Mediterranean. 8 & 900 at a time. No Conscience for Islamists.

Nauru. A tropical Paradise.

World Class Hotel, Bed & Breakfast & Lodges.

Sightseeing;

The old Mines, Japanese Big Guns., Beautiful Bays & Lagoons.

Things to do;

Swimming, Fishing, Snorkelling, Diving on Wrecks. Sightseeing, Biking & Great Restaurants
Explore Nauru’s own Stonehenge, & The Japanese Tunnels & old Prison Camp. Find the hidden Cave with it's underground swimming pool.

Definitely a Tropical Paradise.

Haven't Australia already tormented these people enough that now it contemplates dumping and incarcerating them in yet-another hell-hole?

Just unlock all the doors of the Manus Island prison, leave the place in shame and never look back.

If the refugees cannot be helped - at least do them no further harm!

G'day Shadow, if you want to raise the heckles of the rabid right just mention Hitler's name, one of their most uncomfortable favorite sons. The embarrassing mention of Hitler will always invoke some abusive response like "retard".

One of your team mates, JayB, is calling for the state sanctioned murder of these people;

"we could pay the Asylum Seeker Pushers to sink the boats once they got out of sight of land"

Are you in agreement with JayB, if not why not? I recall a "figure of history" who also sanctioned mass murder of innocent people by the state, but I wont mention his name, it could provoke you into calling me a retard again.

Hi Foxy I did not say PNG was not responsible, they certainly are. But since they don't foot the bill, they can simply wash their hands of the whole affair by doing nothing. PNG is not running around looking for a solution, they are leaving that to Australia. Half of the people on Manus have already been classified as genuine refugees, not by PNG, but by Australia. That puts the onus on us to solve the problem. Despite the huffing and puffing by Dutton and Turnbull etc, if no other country steps up and takes these people off Australia's hand, at a price of course, then we will have no alternative (other than the JayB final solution) other than bring them to Australia. Maybe we can bribe some other dirt poor third world country, I don't know. just wait and see.

Goodness me Paul1429 don't you know that Hitler was a socialist !
err The National Socialist Party was what he founded.

Paul1405: One of your team mates, JayB, is calling for the state sanctioned murder of these people;

That was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Still... accidents do happen. ;-)

Paul1405: Half of the people on Manus have already been classified as genuine refugees,

Err, no they haven't. Half have been cleared to live in PNG but they don't want to go. That, then is not our problem.

Paul1405: That puts the onus on us to solve the problem.

No it doesn't. the problem is theirs. Only they can solve it by accepting resettlement in PNG or going somewhere else. the choice is theirs.

paul1405: then we will have no alternative other than bring them to Australia.

BS.

Paul1405: Maybe we can bribe some other dirt poor third world country,

"Bribe" you mean "Negotiate" So. It's still, not our problem. They are Country shopping, not for safety, but for economic reasons. The UNCHR rules specifically say, that is not allowed.

Don't give me that guff JayB. Your pathological dislike for these people comes across loud and clear. You are an advocate of state sanctioned murder. Prior to that you gloated at the deaths of innocent people at sea. "Why not. It (drowning at sea) got rid of some of them permanently, mostly Jihadi aged men" more of your tongue in cheek, I think not, that is how you think.

Bazz, yeah Hitler was a socialists, the fuhrer is defiantly a pin boy of you of the rabid right, you post a whole lot of crap and then feel insulted if someone compares your thinking to that of Hitlers, you can't have it both ways.

Hey Paul1405,
I honestly hadn't thought about responses at the time I wrote and posted it..
I don't really care if others respond or not, more often than not people don't respond to my comments, but I don't mind, I don't form my opinions based on a need to please others anyway.

Did I take one of Hitlers speeches? No, should I?
And as for the rest of it you're also entitled to your opinion.

I'm genuinely sorry if the way I present my comments bothers you in some way.
Although I do not mean to offend you or anyone else I'm not going to change the way I think or present my ideas just because I'm scared that others might take some offense.

Rubbish Armchair Critic, it is quite obvious in most of your posts that you aim to irritate others and/or cause offence. You just can't help yourself.

Many of the responses on this topic are typical responses to anything that involves Muslim/dark-skinned people. They couldn't care less that so many drowned when trying to reach Australia by boat at all. They are just keen to keep all these dark-skinned, non-Christian foreigners out of Australia full stop.
So stop pretending otherwise...

If any of these people on Manus Island or Nauru are proved to be refugees then they should be allowed to settle here in Australia. We are not living in isolation in this world and need to accept our responsibilities like good world citizens.

If we send back non-refugees to where they came from, that action and the fear of drowning, should be enough to deter other boats from coming here.
At least we will have tried to help some of them, rather than locking them up on some barely civilised Island prisons for years without trial.

Paul,

I guess that would make Stalin (Rhiannon's idol) the greens uncomfortable favourite son, and Stalin would make Hitler look like a boy scout.

The truth is that Hitler and Stalin were both socialists and the Greens are far closer to both of them than the conservatives, as the greens and labor tried to kill nearly as many afghan refugees as did the Taliban.

Archair, your "scenario" as you called it was nothing more than a thinly veiled rant which expressed your feelings towards these people. I fully understand that given the ever growing number of millions of displaced people in the world, and the disparity that exists, that you and others like you, feel threatened, and genuinely fear that your idyllic life in the paradise of Australia, could quite easily come crashing down around your ears. You are absolutely right on that score, it could easy come crashing down!
The political reaction so far to appease the majority, and you are in the majority, has been to create a 'Fortress Australia' and lock out the relatively small number of would-be blow ins. Forget the humanitarian aspects for a moment, and the minor irritation of boats sinking, and a count in PNG etc, the policy so far has been successful. Abbott took great pride in blowing his trumpet "I've stopped the boats" and so he had. What I question is, if the numbers increase, and they surly will, given the state of the world, what is the long term solution? Sinking boats, islands, pandering to dirt poor third world countries. I think not, a far more realistic, and more difficultlong term approach is needed to attack the root causes of the problem, rather than applying the good old short term band aid solution.

Got any ideas on a long term solution?

Shadow, I think they were a couple of despotic tyrants responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women and children. I would not liken any mainstream politician in Australia, even the most detestable, to either Hitler or Stalin.
As the thoughts of both have been well documented, and given what some post on this forum, its not unreasonable to draw parallels between the two.

I ask you again, what is your opinion of the views of JayB. you try and label me a retard, yet offer no opinion on the "tongue in cheek" posters call for state sanctioned murder. If Hitler was alive today I'm sure he would be in full agreement, what about you? Or will you shirk the question when its uncomfortable as you normally do.

Hey Suseonline,
I'll admit it probably comes across that way, which is why I accepted Paul1405's comment as geniune and accepted speech, and I support his right to speak his mind.
I know I can be blunt and sometimes harsh but I'm hardly going to be a hypocrite that gives criticism but can't take it.

Often I agree with what you guys say, I just don't run to give you all a pat on the back for reassurance every time it happens, and also I have less inclination to comment at all when others have already expressed my point of view.
As a result, just as often as I make reasonable genuine responses I also find myself responding or reacting to something stupid that someone said, which is why I probably seem harsh a lot of the time.

I'm not that bothered if people were think I'm harsh, blunt, stubborn or opinionated, but I would not like to them to think of me as being unfair or unreasonable.

Just the way I am I guess.

As for the people drowning on their way to Australia, I'm not responsible for the problems in their countries or the reasons why they come, but saying that doesn't mean I want them to drown in the ocean.
If its a matter of expenditure then I have to weigh up the life of an Australian on a hospital waiting list against the needs of a foreigner who has never contributed anything.
Next I don't think its right that these people should be forced to live in inhumane conditions if thats what the detention centres are, but that doesn't mean I advocate for turning them loose either.
If these people hate us after the way they have been treated in those centres then whether they are genuine refugees or not they have become the EXACT people we don't want coming here, ones that might hold a grudge against us (and this might be our fault).

Paul1405,
The motive behind my comment was this:
'We can let them in, but we might end up regretting it, and we might end up hating those that helped to destroy the fabric of our nation by letting them in more than the foreigners themselves.'

Can you honestly say that these gangs of Somalians running around Melbourne with machete's was smart forward thinking?
And every other foreign minority group now telling us how we should and should not live in our own country?
Politically Correct - YES
Good Idea - HELL NO

Honestly, I'm more concerned with some of the people the government allows to fly into the country legally.
I do genuinely think we need to find a better way to manage the refugee issue.
I'd give them a choice between food, water, shelter and a job (on national infrastructure projects that are too expensive for us to to on our own) paying whatever pittance they earn in their country (on a temporary basis so they go back home when its safe to do so) or a ticket to somewhere else.

I don't assume to put guilt trips onto Australian taxpayers and manipulate them into thinking its their job to fix the worlds problems, or of our country to be a half way house to support the planets homeless and persecuted.
I'm not going to support any policy that dilutes nationalism, culture or sovereignty, or makes us the minority in our own country.
I believe that its foreigners job to integrate into our country when they come here.
It's not our job to sell our soul and assimilate into where they came from.
If where they came from was so good why did they leave and come here?
I put the integrity of Australia and of Australian people first.
Call me racist if you want (even though you would be wrong) but I'm never going to apologise for it.
Doing so would be the same as burning the flag, which is what I assume some of you people would like me to do.

AC: Next I don't think its right that these people should be forced to live in inhumane conditions if that's what the detention centres are,

The Detention Centres, often Criticized by the UNCHR, are like luxury Hotels compared to what the UNCHR provides.

The Refugees themselves have poor personal & social hygiene skills. I do suspect that any filthy conditions they live in, is purely the fault of the Refugees, along with the urging of the Greenies to make the place look bad for a photo oportunity.

Australia spent big money to make the places comfortable for them then they rioted & wrecked the places. No Sympathy.

Posted by Armchair Critic,

< I believe that its foreigners job to integrate into our country when they come here.

It's not our job to sell our soul and assimilate into where they came from.

If where they came from was so good why did they leave and come here?
I put the integrity of Australia and of Australian people first.
Call me racist if you want (even though you would be wrong) but I'm never going to apologise for it.>

Could not have put it better myself. Though, I think I have said the very same thing many times over many Posts.

Armchair, you are now presenting a more moderate and reasonable outlook to the problems of refugees. I may be older that you, but not unnaturally immigrants to Australia from Southern Europe post WWII were treated by many with suspicion, and at times with outright hostility. The refo's as they were called post war, were somewhat ethnically and culturally closer to native born Australians, than most of the migrant mix of today. The only real modern day test we can apply is the Vietnamese refugees we took in the 1970's after the war in that country. Pleasingly most of the children of those early Vietnamese refugees have assimilated well into Australian society, as did the children of Greeks and Italians etc before them. Hopefully, and there are some encouraging signs, the children of today's immigrants will assimilate just as well, given time.
None of the above is a direct answer to the problems we face here and now.

Dear Paul,

I've just read the following link.

It's worth a read.

http://newmatilda.com/2016/04/28/peter-dutton-is-facing-a-crisis-of-his-own-making/

Paul1405 said;
Bazz, yeah Hitler was a socialists, the fuhrer is defiantly a pin boy
of you of the rabid right, you post a whole lot of crap and then feel
insulted if someone compares your thinking to that of Hitlers, you
can't have it both ways.

Well what an insulting post. Is your attitude typical of the left ?
It seems to me that as a "leftie" you are worse than any "rightist" around here.

p1405: Pleasingly most of the children of those early Vietnamese refugees have assimilated well into Australian society, as did the children of Greeks and Italians etc before them. Hopefully, and there are some encouraging signs, the children of today's immigrants will assimilate just as well, given time.

One has to remember these mostly Catholic or Greek Orthodox Refugees & Immigrants. They were welcomed by the majority of Australians. Very few had any problems. I should know I grew up & went to school a lot of them. Italian, Greek, Polish, Yugoslavs & German Kids, apart from some languages difficulties I never saw any bullying. North Queensland assimilated thousands into the Cane fields & Mines.

Unfortunately this last lot of Refugees are Islamic & they will never assimilate, or never even try to assimilate into Australia's Western Culture. Our Culture is totally abhorrent to them. "They" make that "very" clear. As they have done in Britain & Europe.

Therefore It was a grave mistake to admit them to Australia in the first place. We didn't have we didn't have a Security Problem when the Southern Europeans or the Vietnamese arrived. We do now. That has now all changed with the arrival of Islamic Peoples.

To solve the problem Australia has to stop the importation of Islamic people & remove as many as is possible. Which shouldn't be hard seeing their penchant for violence if they are not given what they demand according to the Koran.

I fail to see why Australia is stopping those who wish to join ISIS from leaving, never to return.

Actually Jayb you are not quite right about the Italians assimilating
smoothly. They brought with them the Mafia of Southern Italy and they
are still active here.
Everyone remembers the Mackay affair in Griffith.
There was a documentary just recently on the ABC about their operation
in Australia.

Bazz: Actually Jayb you are not quite right about the Italians assimilating smoothly. They brought with them the Mafia of Southern Italy and they are still active here.

Well actually most of them assimilated well. The Northern Italians & the Sicilians were at logger heads with one another. other than that they were never a threat to Australians.

I was nearly killed when I was about 16. We always took the short cut through the lane beside the Commercial Hotel. It was part of the Hotel. the Trucks parked behind the Hotel & you walked down the stairs to the Laneway. As I reached the bottom of the stairs there was an almighty Bang & a Truck motor landed about 5 feet from me. Someone had tried to kill the owner but had put the Gelly in the wrong piston. the motor went forward instead of back, when he started the truck. He only got a few scratches. I excreted myself.(Got told ;-) ) They did the same with a Farmers Tractor in Mareeba, only the got him.

We had some Maltese & Dutch too. I remember, at School, the only kids we had trouble with were the Twin Dutch Kids. They wanted to fight everybody. We only had a few Sicilians in Ayr. They were mostly on the Atherton Tablelands.

You are right there Bazz.

Mafia Influence and the Whitlam Government
http://www.nationalobserver.net/2005_winter_ed1.htm

and
http://www.crikey.com.au/2005/05/09/al-grassbys-double-dirty-life/

It should be stated right from the start that Italian migrants themselves were opposed to migration applications from some regions that were notorious for organised crime and other noxious traditions, examples being honor killing, kidnap marriage and vendettas.

Corruption at the highest levels is so often behind so-called lapses in immigration policy and checking. That can be to boost votes in marginal seats or to assist criminal gangs, usually involved in the highly profitable drug industry.

Some have damned good personal reasons for mythologising immigration as always good, a sacred cow that can never be subjected to independent examination.

Well otb, I'll bet those Italians that opposed the mafia groups were
told that was racial and we do NOT have that here !
Incidentally were the southern Italians a left over from the moslem invasions ?
That would be interesting to know.
Do they have a custom of marrying their cousins ?

Oh well, is it true that Bankstown is to be renamed Baghdad ?

So Bazz a "leftie" like me saying "you post a whole lot of crap etc etc" is in your opinion, worse than JayB one of the "rightists" posting "Perhaps we could pay the Asylum Seeker Pushers to sink the boats once they got out of sight of land" State sanctioned murder.

Sorry to offend your sensibilities, obviously they are far more important that the worthless lives of asylum seekers.

Beach yeah get right on to that "Mafia Influence and the Whitlam Government" of 40 years ago. However you conveniently fail to mention the far more recent case of a senior Millennium Forum (Liberal Party front) figure, who is already under investigation by ICAC for allegedly funnelling illegal developer donations to the NSW Liberal Party, also helped mafia criminal and Liberal Party benefactor Frank Madafferi's lawyer meet then Liberal Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock on Madafferi's visa issue.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/key-liberal-fundraising-body-took-mafia-money-for-access-20150628-gi07yb.htm

p1405: "Perhaps we could pay the Asylum Seeker Pushers to sink the boats once they got out of sight of land" State sanctioned murder.

Or, we could let them come here & Murder, Rape & Pillage Infidels in the name of Allah as is their right according to the Koran. Another shooting at Bankstown by Muslim Criminals I see on TV to-night.

Never had a Security Problem before they got here. Do you want to explain that?

Paul1405,

A recent example would be the necessity for dedicated Middle Eastern Police task forces. Another shooting has occurred in Sydney, one of many.

It is more of the 'diversity-Australia-has-to-have', where the diversity tail wags the immigration policy dog. You can put that down to that soft-headed Malcolm Fraser who was likely trying to impress Greens hard-head Sarah 'Two-Dads' Hanson Young,

< Fraser was warned on Lebanese migrants

IMMIGRATION authorities warned the Fraser government in 1976 it was accepting too many Lebanese Muslim refugees without "the required qualities" for successful integration.

The Fraser cabinet was also told many of the refugees were unskilled, illiterate and had questionable character and standards of personal hygiene.

Cabinet documents released today by the National Archives under the 30-year rule reveal how Australia's decision to accept thousands of Lebanese Muslims fleeing Lebanon's 1976 civil war led to a temporary collapse of normal eligibility standards.

The emergence of the documents raises the question of whether the temporary relaxation might have contributed to contemporary racial tensions in Sydney's southwest, which exploded a year ago into race-based riots in Cronulla>
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/cabinet-papers/fraser-was-warned-on-lebanese-migrants/story-e6frgda6-1111112763458

Regarding the Vietnamese I think I remember when I was still a teenager in the late 80's early 90's news stories about Asian Crime Squad in Sydney and Triads and such, and their involvement in organised crime, but I was young and didn't pay a lot of attention to the news back then and I didn't live in Sydney.
I guess its more for someone who lived there to comment on this.

A quick look for more recent articles shows that there is a significant amount of Asian crime occurring though it doesn't state which nationalities are responsible.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/29654504/the-rise-of-criminal-asian-gangs-in-sydney/

I guess the bright side is that despite the fact these people aren't exactly model citizens at least they don't want to blow things up and kill people for a religious ideology.
They are smarter I guess, they will buy us out instead.

A friend was telling me tonight, (though I'm not sure its true) that the Australian Government paid PNG a whole lot of money, but PNG didn't spend any towards the refugees, (I'm not sure they were supposed to).
Then PNG demanded more money from the Australian Government, who refused, at which point they held this PNG Supreme Court Ruling to get rid of us because we wouldn't pay them more.
Now I really shouldn't post rumor that I haven't personally fact-checked, but this is what I heard.
It could very well be incorrect information.

JayB I thought it was "tongue in cheek", from that last rant it seems that was a lie to cover your paranoid obsession with Muslims. There was another bloke in history, who shall remain nameless, as the mere mention of his name upsets the sensibilities of some of the raving right on the forum. He also had a paranoid obsession with another race of people, his final solution was a variation of yours, it involved gassing rather than drowning. Different method, same result. .

Armchair Critic,

The Asian drug and standover gangs are still going strong. Previously they limited themselves on ethnic grounds but the mega-millions being made in a broader range of drugs has seen them, blending in with bikies and so on and affecting the general public.

There is always a lot of pressure from multicultural interests to stop alleged 'typecasting' of criminals. They don't want any admission of the imported crime gangs and nasty political systems. An example of the latter is the political corruption that is endemic in some countries and is being imported to Australia. A consequence of the diversity tail wagging the immigration policy dog.

Of course some could argue that multiculturalism is a corrupt system in itself.

Hi Foxy,

Good to see you are back on board again. I read the opinion piece by Max Chalmers in Newmaltida, thanks for that. Thinking people can understand what Max is saying, unfortunately the frothing at the mouth bottom dwellers, calling for drownings and airport lock ins, don't much care for such opinion, little own understand it. For those of limited thought processes the Abbott mantra of 'Stop the Boats' will suffice.
On Max's article there certainly has been a failure of governments both Labor and Liberal to formulate long term policy on refugees. The issue is a political hot potato, and the PNG ruling has once more put it firmly back onto the political agenda. Unfortunately the signs are clear, using Turbull's words the government (and Labor) does not have a road map, and I suspect wont have a strategic long term refugee policy in place pre-election, and will play politics with it, both sides pandering to the lowest common denominator, with the Coalition favored to win the votes.

Another mess left behind from The Gillard/Rudd rein of incompetence and destruction of our Australind economy

So what funding are we going to cut next to undo this mess!

It's becoming a habit, cleaning up labors mess.

Butch,

How about a comment on the Governments 'Cambodian Solution' whereby we have paid the Cambodian regime $55,000,000 to take two, yes two, asylum seekers. You will love the pic of Dutton shacking hands with Sok Phal, director of the Cambodian Interior Ministry's immigration department. Phal looks rather splendid in his military uniform, where's Dutton's

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/blow-to-australias-55-million-cambodia-deal-as-two-more-refugees-reportedly-leave-20160308-gnda8q.html

Paul,

That you compared AC to Hitler because he doesn't like illegal immigrants foisted onto the taxpayer, is very douche baggy and retarded especially as the "progressives" don't seem to care a fig about the thousands dying at sea, considering them an inconvenient wrinkle in their ideology.

That it is now illegal to detain illegal immigrants in Manus, does not make it illegal to detain them in Nauru, and now that the boats have stopped and the number of detainees has dropped since labor and the greens brought them to Aus, there is probably no further need for 2 offshore detention centres.

Hey SM,
I was thinking about whether or not Pauls comment was reasonable, given that I may have been speaking in a nationlistic dictator like manner.
But I have to agree with you that was a bit douchey, given that all I'm really doing is putting Australians and Australian taxpayers first in trying to find a solution that does accept the reality of the problems and looks to find the best and fairest solution for everyone, and he's smearing me with the person commonly considered to be the most evil man in history.

I liked Bazz's earlier comment, pointing out that the lefties are worse than any rightist around here.

As for the reguees-
Firstly, I don't want the government throwing tax dollars away.
Secondly, I don't want people drowning at sea or being locked up inhumanely as that only gives them cause to resent us
- In that order.

Personally, I'd probably seriously consider moving the processing onshore.
It just costs taxpayers too much to try to do it elsewhere.
Our politicians act like they're down on our knees begging other nations to help and the other nations are just going to see us coming and screw us for all they can get.
Take the $55million Paul spoke of.
But this in no way means that I support any of the people rejected getting another chance at residency.
I'm sure they we're rejected for good reasons, and no means no.

They say the government doesn't know what to do with these people when they've been rejected.
I imagine that once they're rejected and with their future unknown that they would become disenfranchised and hostile.
Maybe just as much as we need to figure out what to do with the rejects, those rejects need to know whats going to happen to themselves as well, lest they harm others and keep making us look bad... just thoughts.

Well Armchair and Shadow, you can be lobbed in with Bazz, since you both prefer to bemoan me for giving out the Hitler tag, yet make no comment on your other team member, JayB's, despicable call for Australia to not only sanction, but to also finance, the murder by drowning of innocent men, women and children. You conservatives are a sensitive bunch when it comes to yourselves, but rather gleeful when it comes to the fate of hapless others, you would be quite content to see innocent people disappear forever, providing no one like me offends your rather delicate sensibilities about it. Sorry fellas, but you have another thing coming!

p/s What is your Plan B when the bodies start washing up in Darwin Harbour? Bury them on Nauru.

p1405: JayB's, despicable call for Australia to not only sanction, but to also finance, the murder by drowning of innocent men, women and children.

You know, it just might be a good idea to put the Refugee Cheats Supporters in Australia on the boats too. That would solve another whinging problem.

Paul1405,
I was just agreeing with SM that it was a crap thing to do to compare me to Hitler just because I put Australian citizens and taxpayers first.
If you really think about that... it really stinks like the pure essence of everything tha'ts wrong in this country.

And this is Australia, not North Korea.
I'm not going to criticise an Aussie for talking BS.
It's what we do, well at least we used to before all the PC lefty liberals came and made everyone squeeze their buttcheeks together.
Remember Ted Bullpit? He wanted to blow up Datsuns, but I'm not sure he ever actually did.
I doubt JayB's capable of doing what he said or that he actually wants to do it.
But if and when he's found passing the top-end armed to the teeth in a 14ft tinnie maybe it'll be an matter of interest.

And when have I condoned the mistreatment of anyone or acted 'gleeful'?
You're trying to frame your argument by claiming I've said things that I haven't said when I've actually already stated the opposite of what you accuse me of saying.
I think I've shown that I'm concerned with the refugees well-being, but that I will always put Australians first.
If you want to try to twist that around somehow to make me the bad guy then its you that's acting silly and us that should genuinely be offended at your comments.
And honestly the only sensibilities that seem to be offended here right now yours.

Are Manus Island economic or whatever refugees really being held illegally when they are free to return to their homeland or go to another country?

Paul,

JayB is not my team member, neither is he the guy you labelled Hitler. So I am ignoring your pathetic attempt to divert from your douche baggery and continue to hold you in contempt for your stupid remark.

Armchair, you presented a so called "scenario" which was emotive, biased and implied by its very nature that all asylum seekers were of this ilk. By placing the "scenario" in the first person, it is an attempt to negate your utter dislike for the real subject, asylum seekers, look "I" am presenting myself as one of them, something you are clearly not. And using the first person is an easy way to tar the lot whilst only referring to the singular.
Of course if Suse had answered with "oh i would take you in and give you kisses and hugs" then you could slam her as a gullible fool, which you had already planted in you "scenario"
Where does Hitler fit into all this, he used the same method in speeches of criticizing the singular, and at the same time extrapolating it to cover all Jews.
A good example was the way Hitler used the shooting of minor Nazi diplomat Ernst Von Rath in Paris in 1938 by Jewish assassin Herschel Grynszpan, the action of one was extrapolated to cover all as being the same murderous bunch.

p1405: look "I" am presenting myself as one of them,

If you came on a boat then you are essentially a cheat. You have cheated the System for personal gain. You have taken someone's place that has chosen the correct way. What you have done is morally wrong. People who cheat the system should be removed, genuine or not. I suggest you should find another boat & find another Country.

Paul1405,
I don't even know why your arguing with me.
I'm not even sure I actually disagreed with anything you said, just going around in circles defending myself from your accusations.
Maybe I made your brain crash and its stuck in some weird loop trying to win some argument from days ago.
'Malfunction.. Cannot Compute!'
What exactly are we arguing about again?

Hitler's speeches, right.
I don't actually speak German, so I haven't studied them.
But its an interesting tidbit of info.
But what are you saying, that because I speak a certain way I'm responsible for what exactly?

You know I'm really sick of people trying to manipulate the outcome of discussions by using Hitler, it's really pathetic and I'm trying hard to understand why people do it.

Maybe you come from the group of European immigrants who came here after WWII and the events of that war are a significant part of your very existence here in this nation.
I accept that, but you too must accept mine.

My family goes back to the Third fleet when my distant relative was sent here after getting caught stealing a sheep.
I'm predominately white but I've had indigenous Australian in my ancestry since the mid 1800's.
My great grandfather was promoted to commanding officer on the battlefield at Gallipoli after his commanding officer was shot.
Many other relatives also went to war to fight for this Commonwealth and Australia.

Bottom line is my existence in this country isn't framed around Hitler and WWII.
And my family made a sacrifice for those wars and this nation to defend people like yourself against Hitler so I'm totally sick and tired of having him used as a tool against me, for something as pathetic as arguing over nothing.

Using Hitler to win an argument means nothing to me, my family's been here a lot longer than that.
It's you 'the relative newcomer immigrant' who thinks saying it is going to have some kind of meaning to me, but what you don't realise is that from my point of view you just look stupid.

Paul,

"Where does Hitler fit into all this, he used the same method in speeches of criticizing the singular, and at the same time extrapolating it to cover all Jews."

Well, that is your modus operandi to a T. As they say, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. How do you feel now that you realise that your tactics are a copy of Hitler's?

Armchair, if your going to present a "scenario", it would be good to be honest about the motives behind it. It was clear that you were not referring to yourself but to asylum seeker, and without qualification it extrapolated to cover all asylum seekers. As I said your "scenario" was an attempt to draw Suse in for criticism.
If you had presented your "scenario" to me I would have had a simple answer; :Knowing it was you, I would have slammed the door in your face!" Th her credit Suse didn't take your bait.

The other criticism I have of the sensitive brigade is when JayB mad what in my mind was an outrageous comment about drowning people, none of you were there to challenge him, ever though many make sanctimonious comments about the deaths at sea, yet ignore that. JayB did try to negate his comment later with "it was only tongue in cheek".

Shadow criticizing the singular, and at the same time extrapolating it to cover all, I use it, you use it, probably Julius Cesar used it. It has proven to be a very effective line of argument. Example; the way you throw up some blokes name, who was an unsuccessful candidate for the Greens in a council election at one time, and later charged with pedophile offences. Knowing I am a Green you even tried to link him to me personally. I don't recall any of the sanctimonious brigade jumping to my defence on that on, not that I wanted them to.

Paul,

I was just pointing out your hypocrisy, as you were the first to raise it.

I can see that border protection is going to be an election issue again with Labor MPs undermining Electricity bill and saying they are against offshore detention.

It does seem to be a tactic of those lefties that are politically very
confirmed in their attitude that it does not matter what you say if
you are not for them then you are condemned outright !

You can be insulted and abused and if they had their way you would be
gaoled for your political opinions.
There was a report of some warmist left group wanting all deniers
to be arrested and gaoled. I think it was overseas somewhere from
memory but it does expose the train of left opinion.

When it does hit the fan, just watch the violence of left demonstrations.
What we see now will be nothing.

I believe in liberty and freedom for all people BUT
I DON'T believe that Australians should be forced to give up OUR Liberties and Freedoms so that foreigners can have theirs.
I'm always going to put the greater good of Australians and Australian taxpayers first.
I have to weigh up the needs of a taxpayer on a hospital waiting list against the needs of a foreigner.
There's nothing racist about it.

I won't support something that destroys our liberties and freedoms or places an unfair burden on the Australian taxpayer.
Do you get it?

I don't want to see people drowning in the ocean or being mistreated or inhumanely in an offshore detention centre making us look bad.
Why would I take pride in something like that?

My 'scenario' wasn't an attempt to draw Suseonline in for criticism or win an argument based on anticipating her response.
I hadn't thought that far - it was simply a comment.

I didn't criticise JayB for his comment because I don't believe he's actually going to do it, and the country's become too politically correct already.
You called me Hitler but you don't actually believe I'm planning to invade Europe do you?

Regarding Criticising the Singular: I didn't know it was called that, but thanks for the insight.
Smearing someones name by associating them with other people or issues, tarring them with the same brush?
I didn't mean to imply that all refugees are of that ilk, but I don't need to if its known that some are.
My concerns of my 'scenario' are valid and reasonable if there's a plan to turn them all loose upon the Australian public.
And I'm not sure it's right that Australian taxpayers be burdened by the cost of whoever happens to turn up.

If you are a post WWII European immigrant, (nothing implied) might I ask if you may be a little biased in your own opinion on this issue, given that once upon a time you too were a boat person seeking a better life, and you can relate to these peoples hardships?

Paul

Hitler is secondary to what History shows us.

What the history of world war2 shows us is this.
That when the German economy failed after the Great Depression.
One tribe turned on the other and slaughtered it.

Yet you wish to set up multi tribes together in one economy.

Ok, let's bring millions of the world refugees in here,
History also shows us another example of how that works.
The terrortorial dogfight between the Jews and Palestinians.

Your misguided use of Hitler as an example to support, immigration
Actually supports the other side of the argument.

Tribes don't live together in peace, in the long term,(notice I didn't sat the short term.)Hitler is a vivid example of why it is a very bad idea to set up multiculturalism.
And support mass immigration.
Ironical that you and many others use Hitler and what happened in Germany as a
Beacon for supporting immigration. There is no logic to that analogy.

In my opinion 90% of these people who come to Australia by boats are not seeking asylum but are in fact seeking citizenship. They should be given the title of Citizenship Demanders not Asylum Seekers.

I find it impossible that every single one of these people face imminent and serious risk to their safety and that of their family. Such claims are far to readily accepted.

Getting people from the second and the third world to immigrate into the first world is in fact someones plan, as immigration is being used as a weapon of war. Not all weapons of war a violent. Cultural weapons make good weapons also.

Immigration is intended to destroy national pride and national identity. A nation divided is an easy nation to take over from the inside out.

A nation with a strong sense of identity and a strong sense of national pride like Israel, who takes no refugees from anywhere, is not a good candidate for surrendering its sovereignty as it appears Sweden is in the process of doing.

Hey Cherful,
Hitler probably gets used as an example to demonise Nationalism.

Demonising nationalism in Australia is pretty stupid because we're an island continent.
We've got all the land we need already, why would we want to steal anyone else's?
And it's not like NZ or Indonesia are going to build land bridges where we have a land border and start discussion whether or not we should have an open society between our nations. Its absurd.
And not having pride in ourselves as a nation might be compared to a human being who does not have pride in him or herself.
Like some depressed shadow of a person with psychological issues.

Referundemdrivensocienty,
Nicely said.

Look at the wages here, and then ask yourself where would you go, especially if you heard about this magical place called 'Centrelink'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Greetings Shadow, don't take this as a complement, as none is intended, but as one of the wisest conservatives (and I suspect you are a liberal not a conservative) on the forum was that statement "the government still has plenty of options", in the light of the PNG ruling." just political or do you think so? Given that Nauru has stated that they will only act as a holding pen and not a final destination for asylum seekers, and given PNG have said they will not take anyone who is not voluntary. The 'Cambodian Solution' at $55M for 2, seems financially unrealistic, even if you don't consider the humanitarian aspect.
I'll agree probably short term these people on Manus can be packed off to Nauru, but that is only short term. Both the government and opposition need to come up with a bipartisan long term policy on refugees, which we don't have at the moment, considering a new dimension has been added, ie large numbers of people on the move, whereby previously refugees were held in localised camps, and processing could be controlled in a somewhat orderly fashion, that is no longer the case. On a world scale so far Australia has omly be subjected to a trickle of uninvited asylum seeker, but there is a distinct possibility that trickle could tern into a flood.

just as a side, I think even though Turnbull is talking tough he is not an ardent supported of the offshore solutions. not having the support within the party, or from the electorate, Turnbull is bending with the breeze towards the hard lone.

Paul1405, "even though Turnbull is talking tough he is not an ardent supported of the offshore solutions. not having the support within the party, or from the electorate"

That is your wishful thinking and spin. It is as usual entirely without basis of course.

From The Australian:
<"Malcolm Turnbull has categorically ruled out bringing the asylum-seekers detained on Manus Island to Australia, warning against becoming “misty-eyed” about the plight of more than 900 asylum-seekers and refugees in limbo on the island.

Although his Immigration Minister Peter Dutton has chosen his words carefully – indicating some refugees may be allowed to come to Australia on a non-permanent basis – the Prime Minister today declared “none of the detainees there will come to Australia”.

“We are seeking to ensure that the people detained at Manus can either settle in PNG as they have the opportunity to do, or in third countries, but they will not come to Australia. I want to be very, very clear about that,” Mr Turnbull said in Hobart..

“There will be no transfer of those individuals to Australia because to do that would send a signal to the people smugglers to get back into business, and that is utterly unacceptable.”>

Beach, I wasn't addressing you. As an 'On Line Opinion Forum' I was offering an opinion, do you have a problem with that?

I base that opinion on Turnbull's past, he wasn't overly active in the days when Abbott was spruiking his hard line on refugees, at that time Turnbull was considered one of the more liberal Liberals.

Today Turnbull is very much dependent on the hard liners in the party for support, they put him into the number one job, not because of his political philosophy, but for his elect-ability and therefore their's, they can just as easily put him out, and he knows that.

Much of the political posturing may have more to do with establishing Turnbulls credentials with the hard right than anything else.

Paul1405,

Your mind-reading of Malcolm Turnbull and ors is your wishful thinking and spin, entirely without any factual basis as usual.

How do you get on with your missus? Do you always mind-read her as actually wanting something despite her adamant statements to the contrary?

How does anyone ever convince you that they mean what they say? -That is where their decision is not satisfactory to you of course.

Paul,

What you forget is that when Labor came into office in 2007 there were only 4 detainees, when they left office there were nearly 30 000, and since the coalition implemented sovereign borders not one illegal boat has made it to Aus.

The short term solution is to deal with the Labor/green legacy, and the long term solution is to continue with the boat turn arounds and ensure that no illegal boats deposit future detainees.

Of course if Paul1405 and head honcho Greens like Sarah Two Dads want to put their money where their mouths are and undertake to take in and support some of the previous arrivals who are on Centrelink, I daresay no-one would be objecting.

I think the only real solution to stop the bleeding in the country is to end the 'get something for nothing' mentality.

End the idea that if criminals need to be incarcerated, we need to pay for their mistakes.
End the idea that if people don't want to work, that taxpayers give them a free ride.
End the idea that if students don't pay their HECS debts there will be no penalty.
End the idea that if refugees come here, they get a free ride.
End the idea that we need to find foreign wars for our troops to be involved in when at peace.
End the idea that corporations like McDonalds, Virgin and William Hill pay zero tax.
End the idea that politicians can make laws for us, and themselves too.
End the idea that government interest on debt is a great way to spend taxes.

There's always talk about the state of the economy, it never goes away.
Why should be care about the governments financial problems if they are intent to throw money away left, right and centre.
If they don't have a plan, why should we care.

This refugee issue is pathetic.
They throw money away ($55 million +) and they can't even come up with policies..
Why do we pay them? they should be paying us, for being forced to tolerate their rubbish.

I think the answer to refugee problem and all the handout inclined are JOBS.
'Work for Welfare'

Shadow, what about the 29,000 asylum seekers in the community at present on bridging visas. What is the long term plan for them?

Beach, simply a pathetic idea.

p1405: Shadow, what about the 29,000 asylum seekers in the community at present on bridging visas. What is the long term plan for them?

The best thing Australia can do send them back to whence they came, preferably in the same leaky boat.

Paul,

Anyone on a TPV is given protection and the access to welfare and work until their country of origin becomes safe. However, they cannot bring in family members or travel back to their home country without losing their TPV.

After a decade or so the TPV becomes permanent.

Under my 'No Free Rides Plan' these people would be put to work to cover their expenses, and while they seek asylum we'll give them food, shelter and safety but they will be working to pay their way and our country will get the benefits of paying them wages equivalent to the nation they came from, if they can't prove where they came from they get paid the minimum, and then we'll know who they are.

They won't be turned loose on the Australian public but will have to go to a work camp/settlement to build National Infrastructure the same as our own welfare recipients, prison inmates, fine and hecs debt defaulters, and so forth will be made to do.

Ultimately we benefit.
No more free rides.

"same leaky boat" Jayb is that more of your tongue in cheek. or are you sitting more venom?

Armchair, one of the basic tenets of Australian society, is that we are all treated equally under the law, including industrial law, even visitors or in this case asylum seekers. When it comes to wages you advocate "they will be working to pay their way and our country will get the benefits of paying them wages equivalent to the nation they came from" I assume very low wages.
You claim humanitarianism, yet demand punishment for these people, not the way JayB demands, (yet you have failed to be critical of JayB's extremists opinions) that they be punished but in another way, through exploitation.

Shadow, with Dutton rightly granting work permits to about 14,000 asylum seekers on bridging visas living with the community. Do you not agree that, that in itself, for those who obtain work will facilitate their total absorption into the Australian community and eventually give them all the rights of an Australian citizen.
For the lucky ones who get a bridging visa, work permit and do obtain work it is highly likely that will be their ticket into Australia.

I like to wind certain DH's up. So to all else, I shouldn't be concerned about what I say, sometimes. It's just my inane sense of humour. ;-)

Paul,

I was not comfortable with Labor not allowing those on Bridging visas to work, as that is against the UNHCR charter. However, there is no requirement in the charter for permanent residence.

It is a pity that most of those with the right to work make little or no attempt to do so.

I agree with you Shadow, those in the community given their circumstances should be actively seeking work. I also understand language and skill would be a problem, the unemployment rate for them would be well above average.
The whole refugee issues is a major world problem, and not just for Australia, I do sympathies with our politicians from all sides, trying to come up with the answers when there is probably no answer that will satisfy all the stakeholders. My concern is the problem will only get worse in the long term unless real action is taken now, At the moment in our region things are relatively quite, but that can change tomorrow.

p1405: My concern is the problem will only get worse in the long term unless real action is taken now, At the moment in our region things are relatively quite, but that can change tomorrow.

To stop it getting worse is quite simple. Just ban anyone connected to Islam from coming to Australia & remove those in Australia that have a connection to Islam. Preferably by leaky boat. Then stop paying the Jizya Tax (Aid) to Islamic Countries.

That would fix Australia's Economic woe's in 10 years.

Paul,
First of all I never said these people were going to be a part of Australian society.
I said we should bring them here give them food, shelter and jobs to make them pay for their stay.
In my opinion that is giving them asylum, safety from the turmoil in their own country.
Food, Shelter and Safety, and a way to earn you keep.
If I'm genuinely escaping Syria, then I'll be grateful for and happy with that.
They can take themselves and any extra money earned home when its safe to do so.

If NZ offer were to offer me a Job at Aussie pay rates and feed and house me as well thats not exploitation its an opportunity to get ahead.

I'm not trying to punish these people, I'm trying to offer them a better deal than they already have, one one thats mutually beneficial and one where the first thing they learn is personal responsibility, just the same as I would for all the other people living on a handout.

Not "I'm here! Equality! I want to ride the handout train too!"

Also these people do 'newly created' jobs and therefore dont provide direct competion with any Australians for their existing jobs.

And really, what difference is paying foreigners less when the true reality is seeing Australian jobs go overseas where the cheaper labour is anyway? It really makes no difference and we need to be smarter with our money.

They can take the money they earn back to their own countries, therefore helping their nation, and we will have major national infrastucture projects built (previously unaffordable) resulting in creating real australian business and job opportunities.

At least I would see that people take personal responsibilty and make an effort not think a handout is a right and that would make our country strong again.

Whats your plan? - more and more debt? more and more foreigners? more and more handouts?

Lefties tactics attacking anything they don't agree with is right Bazz, and I'm starting to see it more clearly now.

Take this asylum people issue.
Paul argues that we shouldn't tar all refugees with the same brush,
Whilst on the other hand the left claim its PC to denigrate ALL men for a so-called gender pay gap that doesn't exist for 90% of them.
I'm not sure they equality means.
It's whatever BS story that works for their agenda at the time, seems to me.

Equality is just a term for the redistribution of wealth from the have's to the have not's.
If you want to throw that word around without being full of yourself then be more specific.
Do you mean 'equality of opportunity' or 'equality of outcome'?

You can't really have capitalism, equality and democracy all at the same time.
They are all just tools cleverly played upon to manage us.

Wheres the equality for the millions of Australians who go to work to pay for the millions of Australians that don't?

People who use the word equality are deluded.
They're either really dumb, or pushing an agenda under the condescending premise of assuming everyone else is.

Armchair, your solution to a complex problem is rather simplistic, I assume when you talk of infrastructure you are referring to massive projects such as roads, rail, ports etc. These undertakings require a lot more input than simply applying a mass of unskilled people to a task. To demand that, say 10,000 asylum seekers, construct a road from A to B is a nonsense.

You said; "They won't be turned loose on the Australian public but will have to go to a work camp/settlement to build National Infrastructure the same as our own welfare recipients, prison inmates, fine and hecs debt defaulters, and so forth will be made to do."

This is Stalinist type nonsense, the gulag no less. Herd all the undesirables together then punish them for their crimes.

Please explain in more detail your plan for work camps. How will they operate? Will there be armed guards, we don't want people absconding, now do we

Paul1405, "To demand that, say 10,000 [economic migrants], construct a road from A to B is a nonsense"

There I fixed that for you.

You are quite right, you couldn't expect any of them to do an honest day's work. However, hey will beat a path up to the local Centrelink and for free housing, medical care and whatever else is going.

Remember the halcyon(sic) days of economic migrants under the Labor+Greens sidekicks governments? A reminder for the Progressives' 'Useful Idiots' who would do the same again,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0MHRSFz6FM

Beach, still giving out the "fatherly" advice I see. No need to fix up my quotes, stick to what you do best, giving advice to the likes of "Uncle Kurtis" on the 'Sex talk with little niece' thread. made yourself look good there.

Paul1405,
Do you know what the 'Cloward and Piven Strategy' is?
(To anyone else who doesn't know know what it is, please take a quick look, it could be the most interesting thing you learn today.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward%E2%80%93Piven_strategy

Let it be said, that it's my opinion that this is your general policy for our country.
You can refute me and claim otherwise to which I may or may not apologise depending on whether or not I believe you truly have our nations interests at heart.

Another point I want to make, is that freedom most certainly isnt free.
People including many of my ancestors fought for and built this country with blood sweat and tears.
You may have got free entry into our country and an opportunity for a better life and I don't begrudge that, I'd like to think you contributed to making the country better (whether thats true is in doubt).
But we don't have the jobs or opportunities here that we once had.

So ultimately you take a position of morality and fairness, (as you too were a boat person)
And you push for these changes, and treat freedom here as being free, while not respecting that we left our nation unguarded and went to fight in those wars too.
Freedom isn't free, if it was you wouldn't have had to leave wherever you came from, and;
We wouldn't have had to put our own lives on the line in order to defend it.

You treating freedom like its free, at the expense of our nation is the same as dropping your daks and dropping a big number 2 on my ancentors ANZACS and WWII graves that fought for it, and then wiping your butt on our flag afterwards.

I know that 28% of Australians weren't born here, but you've enjoyed plenty of paid days off in the 'ANZAC' name, have you not?
Did your own ancestors never fight for their nations?
Show some respect.

Paul,
No, I'm not constructing Aushwitz. (In case your wondering)
Plenty of people work and live in remote settlements in Australia.
FYI, They're actually the people who've kept this country afloat in recent times.
(The people who made the money so that you can throw it away, if you're following me.)
So, I'm not asking them to do anything that Australians don't already do, or that I won't be asking our own welfare class to do.

And yes a national straight line highway from Darwin to Perth the long way going (via Townsville)through every capital city with HSR, freight, water, power internet, oil and gas.
A super port in Darwin, desalination plants connected into the grid, an Eastern Australian inland route veering off at Carpentaria meeting at Port Pirie and another from Darwin due south to SA giving southern mining (Kalgoorlie) better access to the Northern Port. I want a move to alternative energy, but I'm prepared to conside nuclear power plants in remote regions if thats what it take to reduce the cost of Energy temporarily.

I know it sounds scary at first, and surely there a million things I havent thought of.
But the more you start to think about it, the more it starts making sense.
You start to realise that theres a million cost benefits and savings to be had as well.

We can save millions by just mass training the unskilled.
We can use Defense Force personell to provide security.
We can reduce foreign aid and give jobs instead.

You give Work for the Dole people jobs like whipper snipping the local church or retirement village?
And then wonder why they have no drive to help themselves?
I'll have them driving a D10 dozer instead.

Someimes the simplest answers are the best, and of course it will take skilled workers as well.
I'm just looking turn liabilities into assets and get more bang for our buck.
And after all, we are a nation driven by handouts and powered by debt, so what team exactly are you on?

Armchair, your last two posts certainly show where you are coming from

Hows that exactly?
Where's Pauline when you need her?
"Please explain".

That's not a response, that's like a 3year old not getting what they want.
Did you spend too many yrs doing a cushy job at Dreamworld and not sure whether you're Arthur or Martha anymore?
I guess I could forgive you for that, given the times.
What does your response mean?
Should I consult an astrologist, or maybe a swami, or a clairvoyant?
Do I read minds? maybe I should try.
Is teacup reading effective?
Am I a public information booth?
Please enlighten us all with your thoughts instead of getting your panties all bunched up in a wad...
Do tell...

Turnbull is lucky that Abbott did the hard yards for him. Imagine the mess if Labor and their treacherous Greens sidekicks were still in power though.

Both sides of Parliament and especially Labor and Greens have been ruled by the political correctness of 'diversity' that wags the immigration policy dog.

Neither side of Parliament wants to be held accountable for bending over backwards for manipulative illegal immigrants and the 'asylum seeker' industry of lawyers and NGOs who suck mightily ($billions!) from the trough of the taxpayers money. So mistakes are far more likely than not and all involved are desperately covering up the unforeseen negative consequences of their slack policies.

When John Howard was PM, his immigration minister Amanda Vanstone turned over her own department's decision and went contrary to the advive of the Department of Foreign Affairs as well as Italian Police to allow a notorious Mafia boss to remain in Australia. Vanstone was minister when psychopathic (aren't they all?) Islamic terrorist Man Haron Monis (Martin Place, Sydney siege) was allowed to remain too. Of course Amanda Vanstone doesn't remember any of that from the 'thousands' of similar cases, she says.

Nor would Labor ministers (and LNP, example being Fraser and 'those' Lebanese Muslims) remember or want to talk about any of the hundreds of serious offences including sexual assaults, drug trafficking and gun crime that is down to imports.

Immigration is the sacred cow and even illegal immigrants have received the kid gloves treatment. They burned down expensive facilities and were excused by the lunar Leftists.

At least Turnbull is holding the line to protect Australian borders. If he weakens, the LNP can forget government and the quick churn of governments in Canberra will be a permanent feature.

This subject, initiated by an intellectual midget, has gone on long enough. Who will be the first to set up a whine for the Somali idiot her set herself alight? Come on you Lefty drongos: start preaching to us about how it's all our fault, that she should be allowed to stay in Australia.

Infrastructure that is new and productive such as a northerly water harvesting system with aqueduct into the Murray Darling Catchment could be built for example, by employing refugees.

Aqueduct about 2,000 km long is envisaged together with water holding areas. Different construction camps would be required for contemporaneous works that would see the overall project operational as quickly as possible.

Having a number of construction camps could provide for different work teams from different regions and countries.

Twiggy Forest for example has been making effort for a long time to help local indigenous people get into the workforce and I think working on construction of the system proposed would be ideal.

Steel aqueduct is proposed so that would stimulate the mining and steel industries.

Something like 120,000 people worked on the Snowy Hydro project.
Earlier this year I spoke to a civil engineer about the NQ aqueduct and the immediate reply was, it should have been done straight after the Snowy project.

If refugees were to work on such aqueduct and gained skills they might return to their own homeland where whole of water ecosystem management and such aqueduct is also urgently needed.
Work on homeland water projects could turn the table on unemployment and hopelessness, unrest, civil war and citizens wanting to leave their own country.

Nothing sensible is impossible.

Att: Armchair Critic

JF Aus,

Agreed that there are large scale projects that should be given priority.

However the engineers should not be inflicted with an untrained workforce who don't want to work, don't want to be there (prefer Sydney next to Centrelink), are uneducated and have language and other problems.

It is all big equipment and motivated operators with high level skills. There are many young skilled people who fit the bill in Europe, Ireland, Canada and so on who would leap at the opportunity and enough would want to stay on. Australia also has contractors who would welcome the business opportunity.

Semi-skilled work - by all means train locals, but don't waste time and money on economic migrants whose motivation is something else entirely and with them come the NGOs and professionals who make their daily bread out of troublemaking.

onthebeach,

I cannot argue with you on any of those points.
But I think give people a chance.
If those needing a hand want to waste it then send them back where they came from.

And by the way, some of these 'refugee' people come from countries that built ancient cities and wonders of the world.
An iron blade 5,000 years old provides evidence beyond building the Pyramids.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.saimm.co.za/Journal/v088n03p073.pdf&gws_rd=cr&ei=Ud4pV7-FHILJ0gSI2p-QAQ

I think it's best to give people a chance.

Do you want to get the infrastructure built?

otb,

Yes, I would like to see Australia take a lead in developing good and sensible proper management of the water ecosystems of this planet while generating business and employment and prosperity and peace at the same time.

Now imagine what might have happened if the Snowy Mountains scheme workers were considered the same as you suggest about the Manus refugees.
The snowy system would not have been built.

Remember, most of the people who worked on the Snowy scheme were refugee/immigrants who had come to Australia at about that time.

Paul,
I owe you an apology for the things I said yesterday.
I'm sorry for what I said, it wasn't right for me to say what I did.
I just don't like seeing the country slowly go down the drain.

The issue with the refugees, if we let some or all of them come to Australia, it'll be seen as a way for asylum seekers to get into Australia, which will entice more people smugglers to bring more asylum seekers.

If/ We let Nauru / Manus People out -> Then/ More come, More risk drowning, Nauru / Manus just gets refilled with newbies.

So its a vicious cycle which we can't win and which will just cost more and more to the Australian taxpayer and more people risking their lives and potentially drowning, with nothing ever actually changing as far as population is concerned at the detention centres, maybe it would increase.

These people stuck on Nauru, have been locked up until last year, when they were allowed freedom on the island and really their only was crime crossing our border and not having anywhere to go back to.

Being locked up is bad enough, but the one thing there is to look forward to is when you get out. These people don't even have that and its only reasonable they are losing the plot and doing irrational things like setting themselves on fire, and plenty of other crazy things as well.

So basically were holding these people (some of them who would've been granted entry as genuine asylum seekers) basically as political hostages to stop the vicious cycle that would only continue anyway if we were to let them in.

I'd like to say these people aren't our problem, but unfortunately the second we took the into our care they essentially become our responsibility.

You have to feel sorry for those people that just lit themselves on fire.
That's not the Australian way, that's not really giving them a 'fair go'.
We're not really doing the right thing, we do need to find a better solution.

[cont]
Even if we do let the genuine ones in, we still have the question of what to do with the rejects.
We're still going to have people going nuts in detention, no matter what.
It can't be avoided.

We need to focus on the 'fair' in 'fair go'.

In order to be morally right and fair to the Australian taxpayer, these people the ones who we should be giving a fair go need to pay their way if given the opportunity.
They need to contribute in a way that doesn't compete or take away from Australian jobs.
We can't treat them like criminals, but we can't give them a free-ride just for turning up either.
Essentially they would've passed through other countries on their way here anyway, and that was a choice they made after already escaping from where they came from.

Putting maximum penalties on the people smugglers won't work they will just make the refugees drive the boats here themselves.

If some people are genuine asylum seekers but are trapped as political pawns we really should try our best to make sure they are reasonably well cared for as best we can.

Some of my ancestors might not like what the country has become if they were alive today, but I'm sure they still believed in a fair go.

Armchair, no need to apologise for anything on this forum, I give as good as I get.

On asylum seekers.

I have never advocated an open door policy on refugees, every nation has the right to control who enters through there boarders.

I did say I do not envy our politicians, from all parties, and the decisions they have had to make, some good some not so good. The problem as I see it is double ended. The circumstances of war and dislocation that create refugees in the first place, it is a growing world crises with about 60 million people declared to be refugees or displaced persons, about half are children. Australia has been lucky in that the numbers so far making their way here have been relatively small, but still present a major issue for us. We have concentrated our efforts of dealing with the problem at the end of the chain and not done a great deal, as much as we can, about dealing with the source of the problem. In fact we have taken an active hand in helping create the problems.

The people coming here are not criminals or fanatics in general, but ordinary people, different in many ways to us, but like us in so aspects. What motivates many to make the high risk attempt, is a desire for a better life, not for themselves so much, but for their children, and any Australian who loves their children can understand that. I accept that many of the first generation will be an economic burden, not having work or language skills, but hopeful this will be paid back by successive generations, their children assimilating and becoming positive contributors to Australian society.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, no one does, but I think if we stop playing politics for a moment we night just achieve a better outcome for both them and us.

Paul1405, "Australia has been lucky in that the numbers so far making their way here have been relatively small"

That is not true at all is it? What about the thousands who drowned at sea under Labor+Greens governments? Angela Merkel's stupid moral grandstanding was not new, Galah'd and Rudd and their ships of fools had already stuffed it up in Australia by shafting John Howard's 'Pacific Solution' that had removed the free leg into Australia that the people smugglers were selling.

As for your 'think of the children', it was Labor+treacherous Greens administrations that ended up with over a thousand children in detention. Children not valued by economic migrants who are unprincipled and throw away their papers while on those boats. The children are bargaining chips.

Again, here is the actual footage of Labor and Greens policies in action,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0MHRSFz6FM

You say that you are not for 'OPen Borders' but that is the practical consequence of Greens policies as expressed by SHY and others.

Armchair and Paul,

It's good to see you both exhibiting common sense, sincerity and compassion and understanding.

From my point of view on the refugee problem I suggest go back a step and think what is causing the unrest in the refugee home countries.

There is massive unemployment, under paid employment, and unaffordable food prices.

Numerous countries could do well if they had significant worthwhile and productive new infrastructure projects.

I am holding out hope for NZ PM Helen Clark to be appointed next UN Secretary General, especially because she has experience as Administrator of the UNDP.

Meanwhile how do we get through the political minefield to get worthwhile infrastructure underway in Australia that may provide some hope for the present Manus and Nauru economic and genuine refugees.

And bear in mind people who set themselves on fire were under chronic stress in their own country before seeking Australian way of life. A person with suicide tendency might also turn to suicide bombing, not just burning themselves to death.

Getting troubled people out of their bind does not have to mean open season for people smugglers.

Short low cost saturation tv clips in bordering countries can let people smugglers and refugees know that any future illegal arrivals will go directly to Nauru or elsewhere and will stay there, untill they want to return home.

P1405: The people coming here are not criminals or fanatics in general, but ordinary people, different in many ways to us, but like us in so aspects.

I dispute the fanatic part of that. Anyone with a Religion that commands its followers to kill all Infidels is a fanatical Religion These people have come here to a Country full of Infidels to either convert, enslave or be kill Infidels. That’s not like us at all.

P1405: What motivates many to make the high risk attempt is a desire for a better life, not for themselves so much, but for their children, and any Australian who loves their children can understand that.

So you admit that these people are coming here primarily for economic reasons, not to seek asylum from personal persecution. Under the UNCHR Ruling this is forbidden.

P1405: their children assimilating and becoming positive contributors to Australian society.

Well no. Their Religion specifically forbids assimilation. Their aim is Conversion, enslavement or the death of us Infidels. How is that a positive contribution to Australia?

P1405: but I think if we stop playing politics for a moment we night just achieve a better outcome for both them and us.

A better outcome for them & us would be for them to find an Islamic Country & go there. They would be with people of their own religious persuasion & Australia could start an economic recovery from the mess they have cause us.

Paul,

Some of your statements are patently false "Australia has been lucky in that the numbers so far making their way here have been relatively small, but still present a major issue for us. We have concentrated our efforts of dealing with the problem at the end of the chain and not done a great deal, as much as we can, about dealing with the source of the problem. In fact we have taken an active hand in helping create the problems."

The low numbers in 2008/9 were because of the pacific solution and it taking time for the smugglers to get organised. At the end there were nearly 1000 arriving a week, and without the coalition, it would have got worse, and the greens solution would have a disaster of Germanic proportions.

As for bollocks about Aus being actively involved in the problems, the Taliban were just as vicious before 2001, and the other wars proceeded without Aus.

Shadow, in the context of 60 million refugees and displaced persons world wide, even 1000 a week or 52,000 year, is not a huge number. I'm not suggesting all 60 million ever intent to make their way to Australia. What I do say is the potential exists for the refugee problem as it presents itself to us to grow. What we don't have, and both Labor and the Coalition in government are responsible, a failure to develop a long term strategic plan to deal effectively with refugees.

JayB, still being driven by blinked fanaticism, just as there are Christians and Christians, there are Muslim and Muslim. Not all 1.6 billion Muslims in the world want to cut your throat, there are some who do, but how we deal with the vast majority who don't is the question, and how we deal with that minority is another question. Your view is total nonsense.

JF Aus, until the systemic problems of war in those countries that creates refugees in the first place is dealt with, the world is going to lunge from one growing crises to another.

Beach, simply banging your political drum.

p1405: there are Muslim and Muslim. Not all 1.6 billion Muslims in the world want to cut your throat, there are some who do,

Ok, Fair enough, but 1.5 Billion is still a lot of moslims.

Is it or is it not one of the Tenants of Islam. It is the Duty of every moslim to Convert, enslave or kill every Infidel they can, or be martyred trying. So, while moslims are a minority in a Country they will stay under the Radar. Until, that is, they become the majority then those, who you say don't want to "kill the Infidel," will, with fervour. Every Imam will be encouraging that act from every mosque in the land. They do in Europe & the UK & some parts of Australia now.

This is a very bad Religion & should be Banned from Australia.

Hey Paul,
I like to use my so called free speech but occasionally I do go a little to far.
I also assume the wars are a cause of many of the refugees but I also agree they come here for a chance at a better life.

I still stand by all the things I said earlier though.
Australian taxpayers shouldn't be forced to foot the bill for whoever turns up here, and they shouldn't be placed at risk of harm for their goodwill towards any foreigner.
Also it's not a good idea to show them they can get a handout from day 1.
(I think this handout driven society generally isn't in our best interests.)

Foreigners successfully assimilating isn't ever really true, they wouldn't gather in clusters keeping their own religions, cultures, and customs if is was.
In some ways 'Equality' means they don't have to assimilate and that we instead have to.
I do believe they they should respect our country and assimilate into it and that we shouldn't necessarily have to assimilate into where they came from.

So I tend to agree with Jayb, I think its has and will continue to be a foolish mistake to allow the Islamification of Australia, evidenced by what has occurred in Europe, and that we do so at our own detriment, but this is just one of many issues where I see us needing to start doing things a whole lot smarter in this country.

JF Aus
Yes I also thought it reasonable to think that a person who lights themselves on fire isn't exactly thinking rationally and isn't a good candidate for roaming free in Australia.
Its hard to say how much detention contributed to a person's impaired mental health or whether they were prone to doing crazy irrational stuff all along. I've no doubt the situation the refugees are in generates a feeling of helplessness and desperation.
It's hard to know what really goes on ever there.

It is hard to ascertain what contributes to a person's decision to suicide by setting themselves alight.

From memory I think the books inicate stress comes from numerous different situations that amount to or result in a chemical reaction/change in the brain, and that ongoing stresses can lead to anxiety and that prolonged anxiety can lead to depression and nervous breakdown and/or suicide.

If application for asylums is believed, people detained at Manus were impacted by chronic stress in their own country. They were under threat of crippling injury or death, so they should be able to consider their stay at tropical Manus Island is paradise because they are safe and alive.

And they are free to go back to their own country or to another country any time they like.

However I think Manus and others needing help to survive could come on fly in fly out contract, to work here building infrastructure such as aqueduct from northern Queensland to the MDB catchment.

And I think another 50,000 refugees from refugee camps in Jordan to work here in infrastructure construction camps.
They could learn and take back skills and build water infrastructure in Middle East countries to grow more affordable food supply.
It could be all about sustainable business and employment toward prosperity and peace.

Working for UN sourced income is better that sitting in a camp doing nothing at cost to the UN or other government handout.

If such business and employment generating infrastructure development was set up in the home countries there would be less or nil refugees anyway.

JF Aus: It is hard to ascertain what contributes to a person's decision to suicide by setting themselves alight.

Defective DNA. Therefore their suicide is a good thing.

JF Aus: so they should be able to consider their stay at tropical Manus Island is paradise because they are safe and alive.

Yes, of course. I've given examples of the Tourist Broachers for both Manus & Nauru previously. These Islands are a Tropical Paradise & the only sand is on the Beach. Compared to what they could be living in provided by the UNCHR, The Camps on the Islands are Luxury Hotels.

JF Aus: And I think another 50,000 refugees from refugee camps in Jordan to work here in infrastructure construction camps.

No, they're moslims & having them come to Australia would be a bad thing.

JF Aus: If such business and employment generating infrastructure development was set up in the home countries there would be less or nil refugees anyway.

That's been tried. They just blow them up.

JF, I understand your sentiments on refugees, the idea that;

"50,000 refugees from refugee camps in Jordan to work here in infrastructure construction camps.
They could learn and take back skills and build water infrastructure in Middle East countries to grow more affordable food supply.
It could be all about sustainable business and employment toward prosperity and peace."

Ever how noble a thought it is, I must question the practicability of the idea. Someone mentioned the 'Snowy Mountains Scheme' post WWII, I think it was you, Australia took large numbers of European refugees/migrants at the time, most were unskilled, many were single men, some went to the Snowy, others found unskilled or semi-skilled work in city factories, some actually were extremely skilled, one of my fathers best tool-makers was a Hungarian who started here as a factory labourer. We had the right projects at the right time, but that was 60 years ago.

Today things are different, the demand for large numbers of unskilled or semi-skilled people, even in infrastructure projects is not that great, can we train and construct at the same time, do we have the capacity to do so. I wish we had, but I'm not sure we do. Take this submarine project,despite the political interference, its $50 billion of investment for about 2800 jobs. Cost per job is very high, I know there is a large technology cost in this, but even at the rule of thumb of $1 million of investment per job created its still $50 billion without the training costs on top.
I think the first generation of unskilled refugees to Australia will be mostly an economic burden, and it will only be subsequent generations that can make a positive economic contribution to Australia.

The OP was deliberately misleading to score a political point. Australia did nothing 'illegal'. It entered into an agreement with the PNG government. There is nothing wrong with that.

While well-intentioned and trying to do the best for its economy, it was the PNG government that was unaware that a black letter interpretation of its constitution might find a legal impediment.

One has to grin at Labor and Greens who are now play-acting aghast at that. Weren't they the ones who tried to poison the well against Australia's Trade Union Royal Commissioner Dyson Heydon, through alleging him to be a 'black letter interpreter of the law'?

That's politics. LOL

Paul,

As you pointed out, the migrants are generally a permanent drain on the economy. Given that 18000 is one of the most generous policies in the world, perhaps you can explain Dinner Tally's decision to up this to 50 000 p.a.

Paul1405,

Apparently you have not seen any of my comments suggesting a water harvesting and aqueduct system from northern Queensland to the Murray Darling catchment.
The MDB catchment starts inland from Fraser Island and flows all the way to South Australia and the water starved Coorong, passing water starved farmers and towns along the way. Menindee Lakes and Broke Hill included.

At least 50,000 -100,000 workers may be required to build the system and refugees with various skills and labour ability from whatever country would fit in nicely. If they bludge they go home and don’t come back. Three strikes out.

I defy anyone to provide evidence the system is not feasible and viable if it has indigenous and other landholder consent/approval.

Insight to the system can be found within the Australian government, Agricultural Competitiveness White Paper, Supporting Information Green Paper, Index ‘F’ - Fairfax.

Steel aqueduct is proposed, providing stimulus for the mining and steel industries. Most countries need water ecosystem management, worldwide there would be significant benefit from use of steel similar to how new railways helped strengthen economies.

It is extraordinary the Australian government funded ABC has not investigated and reported feasibility and potential of this water harvesting and aqueduct project.
Neither is the ABC investigating and reporting world ocean ecosystem and fish devastation and impact that led to understanding need for water ecosystem rehabilitation and conception of this aqueduct system linked to the Coorong.

The aqueduct system is intended to provide mass employment for people from the bottom of the economy.
Seafood dependent SW Pacific Islands and even Australian indigenous people suffer disease and early death due to seafood protein deficiency malnutrition.

With traditional staple seafood protein supply now inadequate or unaffordable at the bottom of the economy, impacted people need employment and income to buy alternative food

JF Aus: I defy anyone to provide evidence the system is not feasible and viable if it has indigenous and other landholder consent/approval.

I doubt the Greenies would go for it. They would object just for the sake of objecting.

Just like, 15 years ago they were all for Wind Power, now they're against it. I believe some are even now against Solar. No to Coal, No to Nuclear, No to Hydro(Dams), No to Wind, No to Solar, Yes to Alternate Power Sources. ;-)

JF, I am not opposed to infrastructure projects per se, those ones you mention may or may not be economically feasible, just as a refugee input may or may not be viable. I'm not knocking your ideas, I simply don't have enough information to draw conclusions.

Shadow, as a population ratio 50,000 is about 0.2% it is not a huge number.

Jayb,

The Greenies can no longer ignore devastation of whole world ocean fish and ecosystems and impact on seafood dependent people and animals caused by sewage and land use nutrient overload pollution proliferating harmful and invasive algae.

Genuine environment-concerned people will understand need for pro active action to actually reverse the devastation that has already occurred and which is continuing to occur, instead or trying to conserve it.
How can ongoing damage be conserved?

The relevant water harvesting and aqueduct system is designed to help the environment and not cause significant damage.

Aqueduct means no need for massive earthworks for canals.
Steel piles with drilled underground foundation and cable suspension will avoid impact on wildlife and will cross natural rivers and streams without disturbance.
Wildlife can pass underneath.

Camouflaged epoxy-coated steel aqueduct will blend in with natural surroundings and be virtually rust and maintenance free.

Initial prefabrication means this aqueduct could be dismantled and moved if damage to the environment was occurring.

Water would be harvested in high country by remote control before it reaches rivers, this ensuring Gulf rivers keep flowing, but without excess water usually wasted into the Gulf.

Water redirected from the system will help drought stricken wetlands en route and help the Coorong.
The Coorong is supposed to supply the food web feeding local and migratory animals from the Indian, Southern and Pacific oceans. This means help for many fish and bird species, already involving mass starvation of mutton birds along coast of 4 states.

How could Greenies justify saying no to overcoming nutrient pollution feeding algae that is devastating seagrass food web nurseries and also changing the weather and climate?

Just wait till the Greenies realize the algae climate link situation. It is inevitable they realize. It is inevitable solutions be put in place, including rehabilitation of the Coorong ecosystem.

Of course there is need to engage in care and rehabilitation of the whole of the water ecosystem of this planet.

And thousands or presently unemployed refugees could help make it happen.

Paul1405,

I don't feel you are opposed or knocking.
I appreciate opportunity to explore any concern, doubt, questions or sensible challenge.

As for viability, this is about managing whole oceans of this planet that are not being managed at present.
Obviously it takes money to deal with such management. No countries in the world have money available to manage whole oceans.

I think managing whole oceans is a United Nations or similar institution responsibility. Hungry people and nations cannot be united.

I think there is need for new money that will stimulate existing national economies of all nations. All nations have rivers running to oceans. All people breathe oxygen from generated in oceans.
I think all nations would appreciate review of world fiscal policy.

Fiscal policy can surely be modified or amended by the G8, WB, IMF, UNDP, etc. Remember, nothing sensible is impossible.

Even nutrient trading is possible.
Google: nutrient trading. But remember it's city and town sewage nutrient involved in the total nutrient loading, not just nutrient from farming.

There is need for major sanitation worldwide as well as retro fitting to update sewage treatment involving nutrient management.

The plumbing industry is capable of employing millions of people from all levels of all economies, including from the bottom of developing economies.

Science is already capable of harnessing nutrient to grow algae for biofuel for jet aircraft and ships and vehicles.

If coupled to inland rail the suggested aqueduct might have supply of city sewage nutrient concentrate that could turn the aqueduct into a huge algae farm, to produce biofuel.

The number of refugees available actually fills the labour shortage gap for the hot desert-like inland of Australia that most coastal workers tend to avoid.

I think all that is needed really is leadership at government and international government level.

(P.S. I may soon reach my post limit but will return)

I like the 'out of the box' thinking and big ideas.
I think we need smart thinking now more than ever.

I like the idea of turbines and power generation from the flow of water through the pipes, and also generators on train wheels.
Why can't we draw power while a train increases speed, and then generate power and feed the grid when traveling at speed?

If I was in charge of jobs and training I'd start by having 'work for the dole' people assembling portable housing.
I wonder how cheap and good we could make/assemble them on a mass scale with built in solar panel and battery pack kits?

Another idea I though of, (and I'm not suggesting we do it but its just an idea I'll put out there to see what others say.)
We have capitalist education (private schools and university) with a socialist base level, right? (public schools)
And we have capitalist healthcare (private hospital cover) and a socialist base level, right? (public hospitals)

So why not extend that thinking to jobs (and training)?

I'm not suggesting this because I want socialism by the way, but for the exact opposite reason which is to protect the system from imploding from out of control welfare and the 'whole nation' being forced into 'absolute' socialism.
Also to mass train people at a lower cost and help those Aussies who fall between the cracks to actually do better for themselves in life.
To give people skills, empower them and make them smart.
We have to stop the 'free ride mentality', it's unsustainable.
Wouldn't it actually give incentive for Australian citizens to work harder and smarter and do better for themselves?
The system in it's current form isn't sustainable, fair, practical or productive.

Paul,

0.21% might seem small, but when you consider that each AS then brings in on average 1 family member, over 10 years you end up with nearly 1m unemployable dole bludgers costing $30bn a year to feed, house and educate.

Plus, there is no indication that even with an intake of 50k, that many more that don't get a free greens card will still try to make an illegal trip.