Being robbed by aboriginals 3 times in Townsville and observing police running through Tamworth this week, chasing aboriginal teenagers and watching groups of aboriginal kids brushing up against stalls and steeling , I am sickened by all the do holders who call me a racist when I draw attention to a chronic criminal pattern that is endemic in aboriginal youth and accepted as long as the victims are white.
John Big Mac

Are these crimes 'accepted' John big mac?
You said the police were chasing these guys, just as they would any other criminal.

Aboriginal people are hugely represented in our jails, compared to all other ethnicities, so I doubt there is much 'accepting' going on.
Maybe they are targeted too much?

Dear John,

Would the police be chasing the criminals as
much if the victims were Aboriginal Youths?
And would your disgust be as strong?

Don't be silly Foxy. The victims are never going to be aboriginal. The young criminals know damn well, that they will be thrashed to within an inch of their lives, if they start robbing their own.

In some ways, aboriginal justice leaves our lily livered variety for dead, & it works.

I sympathesise with you John. Just brought a meal for an aboriginal living on the street today. It does not matter how much help I give I am still a whitey to be hated largely due to the fools that teach that we stole their land. The crimminal system is 'over represented' by aboriginals because they commit crime far in excess of the rest of the population. They scream racism and yet are inherently racist themselves. In jail many aboriginals are treated better than by their own. Almost all the women inside have had their floggings and are acholol/drug dependant.

I have spoken to a number of Africans and Asians who actually believed (because of propganda) that most whites are racist to the aboriginals until they had encounters themselves first hand. How quickly peoples attitude changes when that are robbed, told to go home or called white sluts.

My wife has been threatened with rape, I have had women beaten in my front yard and been broken into. How the regressives remain pig headed and ignorant when they are distant from the real life.

Dear runner,

Perhaps you need to take a closer look at the
causes of people's behaviour.
It may help towards a better understanding.
Anyone can finger-point and criticise.
That's easy. But looking at things from all
sides is harder.

'Perhaps you need to take a closer look at the
causes of people's behaviour.'

Oh Foxy so this principle does not apply to domestic violence. One might also look at the reasons why men bash women and vice versa. Just a thought!

//I am sickened by all the do holders who call me a racist when I draw attention to a chronic criminal pattern that is endemic in aboriginal youth//

In other words you're this guy:

http://tinyurl.com/ztdhzyl

Dear runner,

I have raised the issue of domestic violence,
in the past and of course one needs to look
at the causes in order to try to come up with
solutions. Education also is part and parcel of
what is acceptable behaviour in any civilised
society.

You are not a racist, Mac. All aborigines in jail are in jail because they are criminals, just like all the other inmates. If more aborigines are locked in proportion to other races, it is because they commit more crimes in proportion. Ignore the Moaning Minnies here.

' Education also is part and parcel of
what is acceptable behaviour in any civilised
society.'

exactly Foxy if more school age Indigeneous were in school the crime would be restricted to school grounds.

Suseonline>> Aboriginal people are hugely represented in our jails, compared to all other ethnicities, so I doubt there is much 'accepting' going on. Maybe they are targeted too much?<<

Yes Suse the law and magistrates are not backward in coming forward with jail terms for Aboriginals. Although filling the bottom socioeconomic strata of our society certainly brings with it an over representation in the jail system, as it does substance abuse, social misbehaviour spousal abuse etc etc.

I am assuming then Runner that if any of us are robbed or bashed by white youth, then we also go ahead and vilify all people of Anglo/European origin?
Can't we just be upset with criminals, regardless of the colour of their skin?

I am not condoning their crimes, but rather I am saying we shouldn't be racist about it.

Actually I agree and wholly sympathise with everybody's comments and contributions on this, a difficult and complex area of law-enforcement. I've mentioned previously, probably (ad nauseam), I was a relieving sergeant in the bush for awhile, therefore I've had quite a bit to do with the indigenous blacks.

Moreover I have a personal friend, a psychiatrist, who did some relieving locum work, both for the N.T. & W.A. Govt's. trying to interdict instances of brutal domestic violence within the family unit.

From my own observation, most black youths who live in these far western areas of the State are habitually depressed and view their futures as utterly hopeless, and few have any insight as to why? It's really simple, because of their unrestrained alcohol and drug use.

They hate and view police with suspicion and mistrust. Employment is almost beyond them, because of their inebriation, aggression and unreliability. Most perceive whites as raciest and many are, not because of their colour, but because of their disruptive and disobedient activities. Together with this highly aggressive behaviour, and again their constant state of inebriation? Before I was sent to the bush I had a very low opinion of our black youths, no doubt perpetuated by this aggressive conduct?

My 'trick cyclist' friend and I had frequently conferred on what could be done about this intractable predicament, neither of us could offer any solution? Other than to predict a whole generation of black youth could be lost; to suicide and hanging is the preferred method, unintentional overdosing, on concoctions of alcohol, licit and illicit drugs, and this is 2016?

Somehow I'd like the opportunity to arrest and flog the 'bejesus' out of these bastards who knowingly provide these vulnerable black youths with grog, in area's that've clearly been deemed as 'dry'!

John Big Mac,

Commiserations for being the unfortunate victim of several crimes.

We moored in Ross River approx twenty years ago and the indigenous drunkenness, abuse and violence went on all night until they collapsed somewhere, but not before assaulting the nearest female.

There are once pretty, safe and welcoming country towns that we now bypass when travelling. The populations have changed over the years. You wouldn't dream of camping or parking a motorhome anywhere near the fringes of towns (and cities) and theft from caravan parks by locals is now common. For example, visitors to Dubbo are warned by police and not just concerning theft.

It is a pity, because country businesses could do with more trade.

The Lord Mayor of Darwin has shown time and time again how difficult the 'itinerant' problem is to solve.

Dear Suse,

The website "Creative Spirits" explains that
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
are massively over-represented in the
criminal justice system of Australia.

We're told that Aboriginal people represent only
3% of the total population, yet more than 28% of
Australia's prison population are Aboriginal.
We're told that the prison rates are highest in
WA. That re-offending rates are high that young
Aboriginal people especially in rural and remote
areas are offenders.

There is a variety of reasons for this.
Family breakdowns, lack of language skills,
health problems,police behaviour, poverty and
unemployment, inadequate legal representation,
police behaviour and people's attitdues, just to
mention a few.

'That re-offending rates are high that young
Aboriginal people especially in rural and remote
areas are offenders.
There is a variety of reasons for this.'

I thought Rose said that their was never any excuse for domestic violence. Wasn't a previous Labour PM candidate lambasted for suggesting dv is not always simplistic. Now Foxy is admitting at least with the Indigeneous dv it is a little complex. No wonder people are confused. Many aboriginal men are in prison for flogging their woman.

Coupla years back I helped out a friend who owned a small store in a tourist area selling mixed goods.

The store wasn't particularly prone to theft but he had security cameras installed as part of his insurance.

One afternoon a group of four teenage boys came in. The leader was clearly aboriginal, two could have been and one (I thought) clearly wasn't (red hair, white complexion). While serving other customers I noticed on the security monitors that the boys were helping themselves to various chocolate bars. Not wanting to make a fuss, I sidled up to the obviously not-aboriginal boy, pointed out that there were cameras recording their theft, asked that they replace the items and leave.

To my surprise he asserted that I was only picking on him because he was aboriginal. I said no it was because he was a thief. They left straight away.

Two weeks later I was visited by the police wanting my name. A charge of racial discrimination had been made against us. The police explained that even though it was a he-said-they-said type of thing, we'd eventually be asked to make some payment to make it go away. I retrieved the archive of the actual incident, showed that they were clearly stealing and that race had nothing to do with it.

Thereupon the police advised that, given what was on the tape the whole thing would probably be dropped but I should retain a copy of the recording for at least 3 years.

Pissed off, I told the police that since they had the boys details and I had the tape, I wanted to prosecute the boys as a lesson.

The cops just laughed, told me I was very naive and that things didn't work like that. They warned me that I and the shop would regret it badly if I did pursue the matter, that we'd get no help from them and the full force of the Race Commission would descend on us.

So I let it pass. But I've never looked at the world in quite the same way again.

Hi Foxy, I have been involved in Indigenous health over the years and have had to care for many ex-criminals and their families. In fact I have seen several who were wearing their ankle bracelet alarm that set off an alarm if they went more than 100 yards from their home.

One thing I noticed about these households was that the next generation of young adults really had no aspirations about their future at all. They just expected to grow up and have kids... no thoughts of study or jobs, just like their parents.
Unless this changes then they will continue to be over-represented in jails because they are bored and want easy money, as well as growing up in violent households.

"Aboriginal people are hugely [over-]represented in our jails, compared to all other ethnicities.....Maybe they are targeted too much?"

A fairly standard rationalisation.

Let's try that same thinking elsewhere.

Men a hugely over-represented in our gaols as compared to other genders. Maybe they are targeted too much.

DearJohn Big Mac,

I'm really sorry to see you get so upset about the attitude of aboriginal people to white society. But you have to see it in the context that the aborigines hate the whites because of what the whites have done to them over the past 240 years of British settlement. The whites have stolen their land, raped their women, murdered their men, women, and children, and tried to conduct a genocide of aboriginal people. So can you really blame them for the hatred they have for the whites. Crime and violence against white society is the deliberate and intended outward display of the hatred and resentment that the aborigines have for white folks. And white Australia's solution to the problem: The aborigine should just forget everything that has been done to them by the whites and just get on with their lives.

@Suseonline, Monday, 25 January 2016 3:05:26 PM

Correct. It needs to be said to the bureaucrats far away in Canberra.

Mr Opinion,

Ever thought of taking up a writing career?

There's money to be made in good fiction.

runner provides us with a good example of why it is damn near impossible to have a rational discussion about criminal justice matters with so many conservatives...

<<I thought Rose [whoever that is?] said that their was never any excuse for domestic violence.>>

They don't understand the difference between an explanation and an excuse. According to them, no-one is allowed explore the reasons behind offending behaviour else they be making excuses.

'According to them, no-one is allowed explore the reasons behind offending behaviour else they be making excuses.'

get your facts right AJ. Simply put, regressives want to excuse dv with aboriginals and make excuses, but no such thing with white makes when it comes to dv. Regressives are the masters of contradiction. Follow the lines of the resident regressives and you see nothing but inconsistency. They luv fantasies that support their warped narrative and hate facts. Woman bashing has been a part of the aboriginal culture for a long time.

Mr Opinion>>Aborigines hate the whites because of what the whites have done to them over the past 240 years of British settlement.<<

What a vile and unfounded statement. Give me the facts and figures for the genocide, rape and wholesale murder of the aboriginal people in the last ten years.............the last twenty years.........the last thirty years.........the last forty years.......the last fifty years..........the last sixty years...........the last seventy years......the last eighty years...victim status for the documented crimes against humanity does not belong to any aboriginal taking a breath today.

They may claim it as a matter of course, but they would be hard pushed to find a perpetrator........they are all dead, like the victims. I personally bear no responsibility, if you are Caucasian and you bear the guilt, do yourself a favour and go hang yourself and be self satisfied that you have made tangible reparation and your rhetoric is not just band wagon rhetoric.

runner,

Care to give an example of "regressives [sic] want[ing] to excuse dv with aboriginals and mak[ing] excuses [for them]"?

Didn't think so.

You still don't understand the difference between explanations and excuses. Why am I not surprised?

Just read through the posts above AJ. Can't see it? Why am I not surprised. Can't accept simple facts.

runner,

I see a lot of reasons being given for indigenous crime, but I see no-one saying that Indigenous people are therefore excused for their behaviour. And if some choose to ignore the reasons for crimes committed by whites but not aborigines, then that's their problem. Because crimes committed by white people have explanations too.

Dear Is Mise and sonofgloin,

I'm astounded at your statements. It tells me that neither of you have any knowledge of the historical processes that have been shaping the world over the past 5000 years. Did either of you make it through kindergarten?

Aboriginals do steal off other skin (another tribal group). Within their skin group its not stealing as everything belongs to everyone within the skin group.
This is why its a joke when pseudo aboriginals claim that they are all one people on Australia Day when there are over 500 tribes many of whom cannot and winot even SIT near one another out west unless a tribal elder is present.

An ethnic group within whom the youth feel stealing from white people is OK or even great , cannot expect ANY respect in return.

Its our hard work and tax's that produce the welfare that many aboriginals prefer to receive rather than make an effort to become equal.
John Big Mac

'Because crimes committed by white people have explanations too'

thankyou AJ for that acknowledgement.

People are still banging on as if it is an injustice for aboriginal people to be gaoled for their crimes when the fact is that their own law system is very barbaric. Many aboriginals show utter contempt for what they consider white mans law. To them stealing is justified because they listen to the foolish historians who twist history to say that they lived in some sort of paradise before white man came here. Nothing is further from the truth. Now is paradise in comparison however many choose to live in squalor instead.

Dear runner,

The way you express yourself and what you say indicates to me that you make things up as you go along. I don't think you have any knowledge of history, anthropology, archaeology, or sociology. Like most of the other people on The Forum you believe that knowledge is something that you invent to suit your particular view about a subject. For you, it's irrelevant whether or not your invented knowledge can be supported by any historical, anthropological, archaeological or sociological evidence. Yours is the sort of knowledge that belongs in the pub or the backyard barbecue or in a conversation with John Howard or Andrew Bolt. Are you actually aware of just how simple minded you look when you come out with the sort of statements you make?

Hi there RUNNER...

You're quite correct when you assert that many black men flog their women (spouses) folk, as a process of dispute resolution! Again, the reasons are complex and beyond me? However, whenever I've attended a DV job in the bush, and sought an explanation from the offender, he'd often say "I dunno boss, I was pissed".

While taking a statement from the complainant, they'd more often than not, want to withdraw the allegation? This is another confusing feature in this whole DV predicament that seems to plague so many indigenous people? Quite often the female complainant is well and truly inebriated herself, and has often initiated the whole melee, by assaulting her man (husband), thus precipitating his violent response?

If charges weren't preferred, I often put the offending culprit in the back of the truck, take him into town and lock him up for 24 hours or so, thus allowing time for sobriety and for temper's to cool.

Mr opinion

when you can be seen to be a tenth of the rationality of Bolt you might get a little credibility. You are either naïve or deliberately ignorant.

Dear runner,

Telling me I will never be on the same level as Andrew Bolt is one of the greatest compliments anyone could ever pay me. I am everything that Andrew Bolt is not. But obviously you and Bolt have a lot in common, which is easy to tell from your obvious absence of knowledge in the numerous fields you think you are qualified to discuss.

Misopinion,

"The whites have stolen their land, raped their women, murdered their men, women, and children, and tried to conduct a genocide of aboriginal people. "

Feel better now ?

Do you have any evidence for your statements ? You might find some counter-evidence on: www.firstsources.info - give it a try if you're serious.

Violence: I recall seeing a bloke on one settlement kicking his girlfriend about: when she was on all fours, he place-kicked her, right under the chin. Ooooover she went, and when she eventually got up, she crawled away and I never saw her again.

A nephew was laughing one night, after a couple of mates (all Aboriginal, by the way) got badly inured in a car roll-over. They'd called in late that night to get him to join them: they had another bloke in the back, drunk, from another family, and my nephew joked about how the boot flew open when the car rolled and a shovel fell out.

A friend was living in Tennant Creek, and was mowing his front lawn one day and had to go around the back for something. When he got back, the mower was gone but he could hear it down the street at an Aboriginal bloke's place. He complained to the local Aborigines Affairs office and was given a form to fill out for compensation. Later that day, the Aboriginal bloke brought it back, complaining that he had run out of petrol.

Now that's plain arrogance.

My Aboriginal wife and I put fifty years into the Indigenous cause, but I think, if I had my time over again, I wouldn't have wasted so much of it on wild-goose chases; I should have been a bit more sceptical and selective.

On the other hand, the2015 half-year uni figures are just out on https://docs.education.gov.au/node/39331 and although new 'domestic' student numbers fell by 0.1 %, Indigenous numbers rose by 8.6%. In last year's full-year figures, it seems that commencements had doubled in less than ten years. The equivalent of half of an age-group enrols these days. Any comment, Misopinion ?

Joe

Hi there JOHN BIG MAC...

I dunno mate I think you're being over simplistic with your take on black behaviour in the bush? Most of them are proud people, with an abundance of self-respect for their immediate ancestry, moreover their etymology, a history of which they're immensely proud. What they don't understand is the many inconsistencies and contradictions we seem to have, in our own contemporary society.

I attended a decent blue, at a near town station homestead, where mum and an intoxicated dad were having a real domestic barny, throwing crockery, swearing and shouting etc, to a point the worried (white) overseer summoned us. The long and short of it, a stern warning of arrest sufficed, plus profound undertakings to behave by both protagonists, and all was good. Some weeks later a domestic ensured (entirely due to intoxication) amongst the station's blacks, and the main offender was pinched? A paradoxical situation at first sight, most certainly in the mind of the now sober black transgressor. The Boss and his missus had this big blue, and the coppers only warned them! this was definitely racism?

I should add JOHN, I have absolutely no specialist knowledge whatsoever of Australian Aboriginality per se, I speak only from what I've witnessed while working in the bush.

ttn: All aborigines in jail are in jail because they are criminals

Yes, but you can't say that because, "it's inappropriate."

runner: One might also look at the reasons why men bash women.

Probably because the men have put up with Constant S#it from the woman for weeks on end & snapped. But, saying that is also, "inappropriate."

Foxy: Education also is part and parcel of what is acceptable behaviour in any civilised society.

Yes, being an Educated Financial Advisor or Lawyer give you the nouse to be able to legally get away with criminal behaviour.

SOL: Aboriginal people are hugely represented in our jails, Maybe they are targeted too much?

Yes they are, I wonder why? Targeted, If the Police & the Magistrates allowed the amount of criminal activity to be fully prosecuted the Aboriginal jail community would triple over night. Talk to any Copper. They'll tell you that they will get a phone call & told to drop certain charges on Aboriginal criminals Influence from above, Back-up from the ex-police community.

Foxy: Perhaps you need to take a closer look at the causes of people's behaviour.

Yep, done that. Here's the results. Drunkenness, misplaced Sense of Entitlement, Drugs, fu(# Whitey, & a few others.

Foxy: That re-offending rates are high that young Aboriginal people especially in rural and remote areas are offenders.

There is a variety of reasons for this. Family breakdowns, lack of language skills, health problems, police behaviour, poverty and
unemployment, inadequate legal representation, police behaviour and people's attitudes

Bordom is the main cause. but I wonder what these kids did before the coming of Whitey.

cont.
Family Breakdowns; Yes, Mom & dad are drunk 24/7 & screwing in the street.

Lack of Language skills; Interesting one this. I grew up with a lot of Aboriginal kids. They all went to the same Christian school as I did in a large town, AYR. All of these kids were good kids, never got into trouble & spoke impeccable English. Years later & most are involved the various Aboriginal Agencies that have been set up, ripped off, disbanded, repeatedly. I run into them occasionally & I've asked, Why do you now speak "Burry" instead of the proper English you grew up with. I'm suddenly racist.
Health Problems; Most of these are self-inflicted.
Poor Hygiene (they have been taught better.), Drunkenness, Drugs, Don't bathe, Don't wash their clothes, Don't clean their yards or house of rubbish. Junk food diet, s#it anywhere & everywhere they like. & yes, I do know that.
Unemployment; Unemployable for all the above reasons.
Inadequate Legal Representation; Crap, They get the best & for free.
Police Behaviour; you mean picking them up if they have committed a crime.
People's Attitude; Well if you have been moored in Ross Creek, beside what the locals refer to as "The Reserve" & all of the above. That's no contest.

"The Reserve"; I suggested that they put a fence around it, throw in a few Wallabies, Emus, some Goonies & Spears. It would make a great "Nature in the Raw" Doco. ;-) You can watch them, fornicate, defecate, fight, fall over, sleep, try to get up, abuse whitey, (no language difficulties there) decorate the trees with Christmas tinsel (Goonies). Then there is one of the shows they put on. One little old skinny lady & her skinny husband going for a walk in the Mall. Both as drunk as skunks. She chases him up the Mall screaming abuse (in beautiful Burry) then it reverses he chases her back up the Mall with a stick (in equally beautiful Burry), Then they buy a new Goonie at the Sugar Shaker (Hotel) & head back to the Park.

cont.
Oh, what, Do you mean it already happens without the fence? ;-)

Mr Opinion: Are you actually aware of just how simple minded you look when you come out with the sort of statements you make?

& your Credentials are? University & Politically Corrected? Or, Aboriginality Biased?

OSW: I dunno mate I think you're being over simplistic with your take on black behaviour in the bush?

Most Bush Aboriginal people are good people. It's the Townies that are the problem. Especially if their Ancestry has been "townie" for 100 years or more.

mHaze, your story is, Oh so familiar.

Mr Opinion: It tells me that neither of you have any knowledge of the historical processes that have been shaping the world over the past 5000 years.

Shouldn't that be 1.5 million years. Unless, you're one of those weirdo (6000 year old World) Christians.

runner: Many aboriginals show utter contempt for what they consider white man’s law.

Well, I've said it before & I'll say it again. Maybe Aboriginal Law should be re-enacted.
Steeling If I remember is a Spearing in the thigh offence,
Wife-Steeling is a wrapping in Wire netting & thrown over the Burdekin Falls Type Offence.
(Old Granddad & GrandMa story from Ravenswood about from 1900. It Took 3 Tribes, 3 days running in relays to catch him. He also ran through the house & stole my GrandMa's maid. Real Stories from the Bush.

Jayb,

"Don't clean their yards or house of rubbish."

Don't you realise that it's not their rubbish ? Who made all that packaging ? Whitefellas ! So whose job is it to clean it up ? Obviously ! Whitefellas ! But they won't, will they ?! Racist bastards !

And all those white people in towns get their houses and yards (which they get for free, like their cars) cleaned up for free, and beautiful gardens put in for them - so why can't Blackfellas too ? Especially because it's our land !

Yeah, It's a racist world. Poor Blackfellas.

Joe

Mr Opinion,

You are talking to a man who believes the Earth was created about 6,000 years ago. Our runner has never been one to let facts stand in the way of his beliefs. In my experience you'll get used to it, and your dismay at his appalling ignorance will change to amusement.

Hi there JAYB...

It's the 'Townie' blacks that are the problem? Yep you're quite right and as well, wrong. As I opined to JOHN BIG MAC, their difficulties are much more convoluted and entrenched than you and I would ever be able to understand? I was working at the Redfern patrol district years ago, and having performed GD work there for nearly a year, over time I began to develop a very parochial even bigoted attitude towards many of them. Actually over time I thought I'd developed a reasonable handle on what set-off their belligerent attitudes and actions, until I had the opportunity to speak with a formidable lady known as 'Mumma Shirl' a well known aboriginal identity in the area?

Even she herself, admitted she really didn't know how we should structure a meaningful dialogue with many of the 'townies' as you describe them, she was at least conciliatory in her attitude towards us.

Furthermore we had to contend with one, a Mr Gary FOLLY, an intelligent, but fiery radical activists for aboriginal rights, and a very loud vocal opponent of police, telling all who'd listen, they were never to be trusted and would shaft you quicker than you could look! Mr FOLLY was even more aggressive in prosecuting his case than the late Mr Charles PERKINS, if that was at all possible? A case of one foot forward and twenty two back! Ah JAYB, we're dealing with a culture estimated to be at least 10,000 years old?

'Our runner has never been one to let facts stand in the way of his beliefs. In my experience you'll get used to it, and your dismay at his appalling ignorance will change to amusement.

and Mr/Ms Toni is all omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience. What an honor to be mocked by such as you.

Last year I went to the funeral of a 15 year old Aboriginal girl who had killed herself.

I've known her grandmother for about 25 years, we're old friends now. The death reminded me of a story she told me soon after we met. I'd arrived to pick her up to go to some meeting. She was sorry she said, she couldn't come, she had to look after some grandchildren because their mother was in bad way. No problem, I said. But she was apologetic about inconveniencing me, and wanted to explain. I clearly remember we stood on her green lawn, a beautiful spring morning, flowers in bloom, as she told me her family's story.

Her father had always worked and was from a well-respected family, her mother had about 7 kids, but the family had never got over the loss of one - taken away. The last kids were twins, but only one came home, the other was removed. Why? because the mother had only one arm, the other lost in a childhood gun accident. The family believed the welfare decided she couldn't handle twins even though she had managed all the others and had teenage daughters who could help.

One day (1950s) one of the boys ca 12 went joyriding on another kid's bike. The father took the bike back to its owner. Determined to steer his kid away from crime, he also took the boy to the local police station and asked the policeman to give the boy a stern lecture and a peek at the cells. Instead the cop charged the boy and he ended up in a remand home.

When he got out a few years later he was very disturbed. He believed his sister (my friend) was being abused by her boy friend, got into a fight in her defence, and killed the boyfriend. He went to jail, and committed suicide there. (cont.)

OSW: a Mr Gary FOLLY,

Yes. In fact I think I've had the good fortune to discuss a point or two with him on Facebook recently. Nice Gentleman indeed.

As for Mama Shirl. We had one like her in Townsville too. Lovely Lady, in fact a Dame, Issued in the 60's. She has been immortalized on the Side of the Aboriginal Office in Sturt St in Townsville, opposite the old Railway Station. She did a lot of anti-BS in the Aboriginal Community & kept what she could in line. They used to send the kids to her. I know she used a bit of "Witchdoctory" on the young kids & it worked. ;-)

Alas she has gone from us now. I knew her well & do you know, for the life of me I just can't think of her name offhand.

Ah ha, Lady Evelyn Cole, OBE. Midwife. I think she delivered just about every child in the Burdekin from the early 40's through to the late 70's White kids & all.

(Cont.) These experiences and others continue to affect the family. (I've omitted the experiences of the previous generation who were amongst those rounded up into government reserves in the 1930s.) This didn't happen 200+ years ago, some of the people are still alive today.

Families like this have often had repeated bad experiences with the welfare, health and the legal systems, in spite of their best efforts. The effect is generational - the experiences are remembered and retold. Effectively, these families are suffering from post-traumatic stress.

Why are we surprised that some young Aborigines have no respect for the law or take their own lives? That many take to alcohol and drugs? I am continually surprised that so many of those I know are well-balanced, successful people. No thanks to the white establishment (past, there is some improvement today), but due to their own strength of character. Many work hard to help younger people get on the right track. But it's a hard job to counter the cumulative impact of past events and family tragedies.

I would normally be reluctant to tell a story like this, to protect the family's privacy, but it is already public, with more detail, in the Deaths in Custody report.

Recommended reading:

Paul Wilson 1982 Black Death, White Hands.

Dear Cossomby,

Thank You for sharing with us.

What a tragic experience.
And part of life for many of our Indigenous
people. How on earth can we understand what
they went through, and are still experiencing
today.

Thank you for the recommended book.
I shall try to get hold of a copy.

Cossomby

your account of your friend and family tradegy is tragic and all to common. No doubt DCP or the equivelant Government department have much to answer for. The mistake however is to pretend life before white man coming to Australia was much better. Many barbaric practices took place before this land was settled. If some of those on the receiving end (young girls) were to write their stories people would be horrified. We can either continue to focus on the past (usually very very selectively) or we can move forward. There were many British who made great sacrifices to make life better for the 'natives'or first people. I have a number of aboriginal funerals which is always heartbreaking. A couple have been young teenagers killing themselves after stealing cars. Most have been people drinking themselves to death.

I remember reading some time ago about a Wiradjuri woman
from Cowra in central-western NSW. Colleen Shirley Smith.
known to everyone as "Mum Shirl." "Mum Shirl" over the
years influenced Father Ted Kennedy at Saint Vincent's
parish in Sydney's Redfern, when he turned the resources
of the church over to caring for dispossessed urban
aborigines. Extremely well read in Theology and Literature
Ted Kennedy described Mum Shirl at her funeral in 1998 in
Saint Mary's Basilica as "the greatest theologian I have
ever known." She had taught Kennedy how to fight for
justice. Mum Shirl did not suffer fools gladly, and quickly
brought the mighty and righteous down from their thrones,
often with some well-placed four letter words.

Before joining Redfern parish Mum Shirl had been a prison
visitor for years and she had raised as her own more than
60 children who came into her care. She worked with the
Redfern parish to establish the Aboriginal medical and
Legal services that now operate next door to the church.

The "Encyclopedia of Aboriginal Australia" says that her:

"work at Saint Vincent's evolved into an informal
welfare agency for a mixed clientele of ex-prisoners
children in need, single parents, alcoholics and young
probationers. With no money of her own, she often ran
her services on her own sickness benefits....By the
1990s Mum Shirl had assisted some 6,000 people."

Runner, 'The mistake is' to use the alleged barbaric life of Aborigines before European arrival to downplay the treatment of Aborigines after. 'Oh no matter how bad we treated them, it was MUCH worse before!'

I have some doubts about the extent of the horror of traditional Aboriginal life, the recent claims are very convenient to counter evidence of bad European behaviour. But, even if it was so, WE were the ones bringing western civilisation, enlightenment and the religion of love and mercy. We just didn't behave in a very civilized, enlightened, loving or merciful manner to the Aborigines we displaced. (Yes, I recognise there were good men and women).

We shouldn't focus on the past? Well, people like my friend's family are still suffering from the past, in fact a very recent past. How do we help them 'get over it'? Maybe they'll forget eventually, the day after we stop remembering Gallipoli, perhaps?

And wrt Gallipoli, I do believe there are some positive changes afoot - the recognition of the Black Diggers is one major step forward. See
http://www.dva.gov.au/i-am/aboriginal-andor-torres-strait-islander/indigenous-australians-war, and http://theconversation.com/indigenous-soldiers-remembered-the-research-behind-black-diggers-21056.
It must have been pretty devastating for Aboriginal families when the service of their father, husband, brother, son was never recognised. Just another straw ..

Dear Cossomby,

At last, someone on The Forum who has a grip on the reality of what has been happening to the aborigines over the past two centuries. The real question that needs to be answered is why does white society want to keep the realities hidden from public view. I don't think the reason is about shame or embarrassment on the part of whites. It's all about not being sympathetic to the plight of the aborigines or caring about their socio-economic position vis-a-vis whites.

I hate to seem to be bias but I must admit to believing that outside of anthropologists, historians, sociologists, archaeologists, and the aboriginal peoples themselves, virtually everyone else in Australia is totally disinterested in the position of the peoples that represent the world's oldest culture.

Misopinion,

'Hidden' ? If you check out my web-site, www.fitstsourcves.info, you'll find around fifteen thousand pages, maybe twenty by now, of documentation. Sorry if it doesn't match your prejudices.

Joe

JohnBigMac back again.
I have read and listened to all the bleeding hearts.
Aboriginals were not the first or only people in early history.
All the other races have developed and progressed and invented.
Some have crawled from the cave and reached the moon.
The aboriginal has .
Weather through lacking in something in the brain or some other failed pathway.

What excuse do they offer.
Blaming others doesn't work. When other peoples arrived here from their cities with science,ships,navigational instruments and clocks they were met by naked people who had we are told had 40,000 years of DEVELOPMENT.
So explain that.
Even with the example of white mans inventions what have aboriginals developed created invented since. During this same period white man has gone to the moon and developed dialysis machines to name one in a billion developments.
The oldest boomerang is from Poland , some 600 years old, think that one through.
Most other developments claimed by aboriginals came from the Indonesian contact.

Sorry bleeding hearts, time to open those eyes
JohnBigMac

'evening to you FOXY...

Mumma Shirl was a very spirited lady indeed and as you say, she didn't suffer fools (or any policeman) gladly. At least you could express an opinion that was not particularly complimentary to blacks, and if it was fair comment, she copped it! I heard she passed on, but I hadn't seen her since the early 1980's when I was ultimately transferred. She was a very special lady who regrettably was never really acknowledged as such? The 'Australian of the Year' awards; Mumma Shirl would've been an exemplary candidate in my opinion, if the institution had existed in those days?

'I have some doubts about the extent of the horror of traditional Aboriginal life, the recent claims are very convenient to counter evidence of bad European behaviour.'

I would say your doubts are convenient Cossomby. I have spoken to many elders and have no reason to doubt what they say. Noel Pearson's take on things seem to be very balanced.

Cossomby, you wouldhave no idea; sorry.

prigyb,

You declaim about " .... the peoples that represent the world's oldest culture."

In fifty-plus years, I've never understood that: all human groups have always had 'the world's oldest culture', by virtue of being human. After all, we all came out of Africa.

Do you mean the 'world's most unchanging culture ? How is that a positive ? That sounds suspiciously conservative to me.

The tragedy for Aboriginal people in Australia is to have been cut off from the rest of the world for so long, on a continent with no domesticable animals, and no domesticable plants. So they were condemned to be nothing but hunter-gatherers for sixty thousand years.

Condemned ? Now that Aboriginal people control vast areas, do you see many flocking to go back to that life, prbgydfitb ? What sort of life do Aboriginal people seem to prefer, judging by their free movements ?

My wife was Aboriginal, our kids are Aboriginal. We made Aboriginal Flags back in the early seventies, a couple of hundred of them, and sent them around the country: two factory workers.

But if you're pig-ignorant enough to 'know' better, go for it.

Joe

Loudmouth, I have to say that I am totally confused by your last post.

Nowhere did I 'declaim about the peoples that represent the world's oldest culture' or claim that I know it all.

I told a story about how one Aboriginal family had been disrupted over the last 60 years, as an example of the difficulties of breaking the cycle. Their story really affected me, and I have a crystal clear memory of hearing it. I've spared the readers here some details that I can hardly bear to remember, but will never forget.

Then I thought, he's muddling me up with someone else, prigyb. But I can't find any posts by prigyb!

Then I thought, why is he attacking me? I would have thought he would understand the point of my posts.

Then I thought, this doesn't sound like Loudmouth at all, maybe someone has hijacked his name.

So, Joe, if it wasn't you, or you didn't mean me, shalom.

Sorry, Cossomby, I meant Mr Opinionated.

Cheers,

Joe

JohnBigMac

1. the Polish boomerang is associated with material dated at 30,000 years, the oldest Australian boomerang is 10,000 years (Wyrie Swamp, SA). There were throwing sticks in many cultures, and in other archaeological sites, but I'm not up on the oldest returning boomerang.

2. Human invention and development was predicted on domestication, which allowed sedentary living, the development of urban life and skill specialisation. It was assisted in Asia-Europe by the easy flow of ideas back and forth between agricultural peoples. Once the ancestors of the Aborigines got to Australia (the first substantial water crossing) they were stuck in a dead-end - no plants or animals that could be domesticated, and limited opportunity for exchange of ideas. They weren't dumb, just unlucky.

3. But they did make a go of it for a very long time, and developed subtle (well to our eyes) ways of living here and managing the land, with some plant domestication.

4. When the First Fleet arrived, the British nearly starved. If they had not had some domestic animals, and plant crop seeds, (and the fortuitous arrival of supply ships) they might not have survived. Perhaps that puts Aboriginal survival into perspective.

5. The Aborigines many not have invented many useful things, but they also did not invent: machine guns, hand grenades, the guillotine and other nasty ways of torturing and killing people, religious sects that tried (try!)to annihilate each other, concentration camps, atomic bombs.

6. Have a look at the $50 note. David Unaipon's inventions include an improved hand tool for shearing sheep, a centrifugal motor, a multi-radial wheel and a mechanical propulsion device; he was unable to get financial backing to develop his ideas. He gained a reputation at the time of being ‘Australia's Leonardo’ for his promotion of scientific ideas.

More tomorrow (at the risk of Loudmouth's displeasure for sounding like a know-it-all. Actually I'm a want-to-learn-it-all, comes with the territory. )

One thing for sure John Big Mack is that the aboriginals of today are far more violent towards their own then to outsiders. Murder, rape, incest and dv is at much elevated rates among themselves rathr than the general population. It seems they are just as angry towards each other than they are the whities. It is also strange that I have found that aboriginals who live in communities are far less racist than the townies. Maybe the townies have been listening to the black arm band rot taught by those benefiting the most by remaining victims.

Aboriginal kids are more likely to go to jail than white kids, more likely to end up in jail than complete high school, more likely to live 10 years less than white kids, more likely to contract a serious illness than white kids, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be violent, more likely to come from a dysfunctional family, more likely to be of a lot of negatives. Great fuel for finger pointers, so easy its all there, the facts, the facts speak for themselves.

Europeans tried a number of initiatives, some intentional some not so, to solve the 'Aboriginal problem' some at the government level, some local. Tried shooting, disease, starvation, tried to isolate them, tried locking them up, tried throwing money at them, even tried to breed them out, all without complete success. They are a resilient mob, maybe that is why their ancestors have been here 40-60,000 years.

The solution lies in the future and despite many good folks efforts, both black and white, the final goal of equality in all aspects of life is still a long way off. But those of good conscience will keep chipping away at the problems.

Hi Paul,

Sorry, what's your point ? People commit offences, they face the consequences. So ??

You declare " .... shooting, disease, starvation, tried to isolate them, tried locking them up, tried throwing money at them, even tried to breed them out, all without complete success."

Evidence ? Nah, just feel the passion.

Noel Pearson spoke yesterday at the National Press Club. I don't think he has twigged yet that the missing ingredient is "EFFORT", as my son used to say when he listened to my wife and me going on about what could work, what sorts of projects could get off the ground: he'd shrug and day, "Yes, just add the miracle ingredient: Effort." And he was right.

There is still the assumption that able-bodied people should just sit there and get ever-more done for them. No. They don't have that right. No, sorry, they don't. Nope.

Nobody points out that able-bodied people, Black or white, should try to find work. Welfare is for people who, for a host of reasons, can't work. It's not a ICU life-support system for able-bodied people. Have people no shame ?

Of course, the tide has gone out on work opportunities near remote settlements in mining etc. So people can now duck the obligation to work. And if grown people can do that, then children can duck the obligation to get an education. Education leads to work. No work means no need for education. Ergo, lifelong welfare. Sweet.

That's not what I signed up for.

Joe

Hi Joe, where is your evidence to support the claim Nobody points out that able-bodied people, Black or white, should try to find work. Welfare is for people who, for a host of reasons, can't work. It's not a ICU life-support system for able-bodied people. Have people no shame?"
I'm not saying your wrong, you may well be right about able-bodied people wroughting the system. I totally agree with your qualification "welfare is for people who, for a host of reasons, can't work." But none of this comment offers a real and lasting solution.
To answer your question; yes there are people with no shame.
My point was, I do not believe the simple finger pointing is the answer, and there are plenty of them finger pointers around, some Aboriginal behavior gives such people plenty of ammunition. 228 years after the first white settlement we sill have much to do, there is no short term fix to close the gap between white and black. But progress is being made.

Hi Paul,

Indigenous people are as intelligent as anybody else. Keep that in mind.

By avoiding work, or looking for work, or getting enough education to qualify people for basic work, people have made their own decisions. If it's got them into a ghastly hole, it's THEIR ghastly hole.

Nothing much is going to change, unless something very, very drastic happens. Kids will keep getting abused, women will keep getting beaten to death, young blokes will keep going on the grog and on ice. All that's become 'normal' in remote settlements. A horde of social workers will wrinkle their brows in puzzlement, shake their heads in regret, and keep taking their salaries.

The world doesn't owe them. Surely self-determination means making your own decisions to get yourselves out of your self-made ghastly hole ? Wouldn't that be a genuine form of 'empowerment' ?

Yes, you're right, that " .... 228 years after the first white settlement we sill have much to do, there is no short term fix to close the gap between white and black."

And it's mainly their own problem. They make their own problems, they solve their own problems. That's human behaviour. That's maturity.

Frankly, it's not at the forefront of my mind. I'm far more interested in people making some effort, up 'North' and down 'South'.

Joe

'A horde of social workers will wrinkle their brows in puzzlement, shake their heads in regret, and keep taking their salaries. '

I have met many of these Loudmouth. Some are very genuine and some just can't get a job elswhere. Unfortunately some are from NZ and feed the aboriginals the usual (whites stole the land) narrative. I wonder about the brains of the people employing them. Most communities were better off under the missionaries despite the distorted narrative from the academics. Some of the old time elders tell of how much better it was.

you are write 'They make their own problems, they solve their own problems.' Actually I think our left wing Governments have made more problems than anyone else. They have fed the victim mentality and given an and excuse not to contribute to wider society. The 'I owe you' attitude stinks and is unhealthy for anyone. Many Indigeneous have learn't to be proud of being black instead of being proud of good character irrespective of colour. If you are a child molestor whether a catholic priest or an elder you are a child molestor. If you are generous whether white or black you are a generous person. Anyway enough of this rant. The ignorant will remain ignorant and in many cases add to their degrees and those who know will be shunned.

Finding a job (if you're Aboriginal)... a brief analysis based on my observations in far western NSW.

Where is the work?

1. Pastoral/agriculture: sheep, goats and irrigation horticulture. Until the early 20C most Aborigines here lived and worked on large pastoral stations. But there was a continuous push by government to smaller family size properties, including soldier settlement (for which Aboriginal servicemen were not eligible) and Aborigines were gradually pushed out. (There was one exception in WNSW, Weilmoringle, where the Aboriginal community was able to stay put, and now own the station). Irrigation blocks were allocated by government, and many areas were also soldier settlement. Experienced Aborigines who would have liked to set up on their own could not get loans (I know examples). Today the available pastoral/farm work is seasonal: shearing, fruitpicking.

2. State government services: education, health, national parks, police etc. Many Aborigines are employed in this area, starting in the 1970s, but in small country towns there's a limited number of jobs and many require some tertiary education or training.

3. Local government: an important employer. Where you tend to see Aborigines working today is on road gangs and garden crews.

4. Small business. This is where most Australians work in rural towns and the absence of Aborigines is apparent. Those Aboriginal small businesses I know tend to be in arts and crafts or tourism. Where are the Aborigines running electrical businesses, take-away shops, draperies, local bakeries, newsagencies, the local pub, the post office franchise?

There are some obvious reasons for their absence: small businesses tend to be family affairs, or there is a family tradition and it has
been hard for Aborigines to get loans to set up in business. (cont.

Hi Runner,

As you suggest, some people .... feed the aboriginals the usual (whites stole the land) narrative." Including to those people who are actually on their land now, and have effectively never lost it.

Hi Cossomby,

Yes, as you say, finding work in rural areas is difficult, and probably has been becoming more difficult every year, for a century or more. Like a hell of a lot of Australians, people have to move to where the work is, and that's more likely to be the towns and cities.

Small businessmen: when I was a little kid in Bass Hill, Bankstown, the local grocer was Aboriginal. His elder daughter lent me her comb once, I probably gave her nits. God, she was really pretty, I'll never forget that :)

But as you say, professional people are needed in, and can find work in rural areas - fortunately, many Indigenous people are graduating from universities now, forty thousand in total, by the end of last year.

Cheers,

Joe

Where is the work (cont.)

Over the last few decades out west, I've become aware of this, and realised that I noticed it because of my own family background in small business, going back 100s of years (builders, later architects, carriers, mechanics (stage coach to autos), electricians, tool makers, jewellers, butchers, bakers, dressmakers, small retail etc.) We start as kids working in the family store or workshop, and even if we get a degree, and work for government or a big company for a while, it is second nature to start our own business somewhere along the line. We don't 'retire', we open a business (or the second, or third). Pretty well everyone in my extended family has done this.

So I really noticed the lack of Aborigines in small business. The challenge is to change this. The benefits are multiple: Aboriginal kids will grow up learning that working in small business is normal; Aboriginal families will become part of the small business network in towns, and that will break down barriers. Small businesses spawn more small businesses, so once someone in a family does it, others will get the idea.

The question is how. How to develop a small business tradition in Aboriginal families? A small non-Aboriginal family business is unlikely to employ an Aboriginal teenager, and the Aboriginal teenager is likely to feel uncomfortable in that situation anyway. But there are few Aboriginal small businesses that can provide an entree. Apprenticeships? Well, they are problematical these days, and the transition from apprentice to running your own business is not easy. I suspect it is still very hard for Aborigines to get business loans.

And businesses fail. For most of us, the attitude is, OK that didn't work, I'll try something else. Aborigines who fail are likely to hear: typical, Aborigines can't do anything well. (That expectation/ fear alone might be a disincentive to try).

So, I am arguing that the lack of employment amongst rural Aborigines is a bit more complicated that 'they're a bunch of bludgers'.

Hi again Cossomby,

Yes, whether we've ever been in business or not, we probably don't realise how incredibly sophisticated one's thinking has to be to understand the processes of investing, doing everything right, and accruing income, and eventually making a go of a business.

That what comes over the counter is not pure gravy to do with what you like, but that most of it (at first, almost all of it) has to be re-employed to buy new stock or plant or equipment, repay bank loans, pay electricity bills, rent, wages, insurance, super, maintenance, etc.

That the hours required for many businesses is vastly more than a standard forty-hour week.

That any businessperson has to spend hours every day on all manner of forms, to State and Federal authorities, the Tax office, etc.

Getting Aboriginal people involved in all that, basically modern capitalism, requires a major shift in how one perceives how the world operates.

Best Wishes,

Joe

A fair number of aboriginals have been employed by the mining industry. There are some great success's and great failures. Some starting to earn big money only to find family members who won't work want a slice of the hard earned dollar. Soon the young enthusiastic worker loses heart. Often its the women's side of the family wanting the money. It is also very hard for an Indigeneous person to live at a camp away from his woman. Although not unique to the Indigeneous, being away creates a lot of strife. Hopefully in future generations these cultural ties will stop holding more of these young guys back.

I have been wondering about those group of
Teenagers in that stolen car that killed that pregnant mother
The other day.

Were they aboriginal?

I wondered this because the breaking into homes and stealing
Cars has become the favourite pastime of aboriginal youth
In this city in the last few years.

They lock them up briefly and the next week they are out stealing
Another car and driving in life threatening ways on the city's roads.
If they were aboriginal, then their negative attitude has resulted
In the death of this young mother.

'I have been wondering about those group of
Teenagers in that stolen car that killed that pregnant mother
The other day.'

not sure Cherful but the stabbing murder in Perth after Australia day celebrations were two groups fighting. The name of the deceased was not allowed for cultutal reasons.

The White people took our land.

Nobody gave me or any white people I know
Any land. We had to work 24/7 for decades to
Obtain land of our own.

I do acknowledge the complete supremacy of
The British Empire at the time they sent ships to Australia.
Not many societies in the world could push them back
Out of their countries. They were too
Advanced in weapory and know how.

They regarded native people as almost a part of the wilderness,
To be studied like flora and fauna.

Like an advanced alien race might regards us earthlings
If they landed here to day.

They did not understand a civilisation without organised
Towns and an industrious outlook. To them to have no
Level of higher civilisation was akin to being part of the
Quaint and exotic bush land around them

It is only over time that they came to very much see
The humanness of the native peoples by having
Much more close contact with them.

To the credit of the British and Europeans they have included
This idea of non racism and equality into the school learning systems.
Something I doubt most other countries in the world have done.
Still, it can be taught, but it remains to be seen in coming generations
What the results will be. Most races and other countries
Are not even attempting to address these issues.
And you can't treat people equally if they don't afford you
The same respect.

Cherful: I know lots of people - dozens personally, hundreds if I counted descendants of families - who have been given land. In the 1800s you could select a block on a pastoral lease. In the 1890s-1900s you could put your name in a ballot for a pastoral lease or a fruit block. You wanted to set up a commune in the 1890s - the government would give you land (SA,QLD).

Whole settlements and towns were created this way. Sometimes you had to be a returned soldier (at least a white one) - those blocks were available in the 1920s and 1950s, so I know some individuals still alive who were given that land. The government produced booklets of the leases or blocks on offer, so you could pick the ones you liked the look of. Of course there were conditions - you might have to pay rent initially, or make improvements. In many places the soldier settler blocks were too small or in poor country or the returned soldier inexperienced and they failed.

Now if you live in Sydney, for example, you do have to pay a lot for land, but the first white people got that land as a land grant. It gained value as it was on-sold over the years, and when you finally buy some you too will make a profit when you sell. So you and I may have to pay now, but the land was initially given to white people and that free handout - 1790s, 1800s, 1950s - boosted the developing economy - it's a primary factor in the success of Australia.

Runner:
Social workers... "Unfortunately some are from NZ and feed the aboriginals the usual (whites stole the land) narrative."

mm, somehow I don't think Aborigines need social workers from NZ or elsewhere to tell them that white people stole their land. They'd be telling the social worker.

However I had this vision...

In Menindee, say, NZ social worker rolls into town in 2016, chats up Aborigine.

Kiwi: I'm rilly sorry to brik the niws to you, but white Austrilians stole your land. I know it cimes as a big shock but sit down, I'll get you somthin to hilp with the trauma of finding out, I'm a sicil wirker.

Aborigine: What! How come I've been kept in the dark so long! Why didn't mum tell me when my sister was taken away! Why didn't granma tell me when she was rounded up out Ivanhoe way and trucked to the mission here! Why did granpa mention it when he told me how his father was shot at by the station boss! You mean all this happened because white Australian stole out land? How could I have not known? Thank you, thank you for coming all the way from NZ to put me straight! Hey what about your Maoris ...

PS I'm allowed to sind up Niw Zilinders, because I'm half one.

JohnBigMac
Stolen generation
Don't forget aboriginals do not accept aboriginals of another skin (tribe).
So
If a child was born of mixed skin neither tribe would accept it and it was put out on the track for the white constable to collect on his rounds on horse , maybe alive, to take to the nearest mission station and another of the stolen generation now claimed.
If parents abandoned their kids by drinking or cultural reasons nice again the constable would often step in.

Not religious fanatics stealing children at random to save them for Christ or who ever.
JohnBigMac

Sorry, John Big Mac, that's nonsense for my neck of the woods.

In WNSW, Aboriginal families brought up the children fathered by whites in the 19C (started ca 1840s) - those part-Aboriginal people became the backbone of the pastoral industry until closer settlement. There were few religious missions out here, and they didn't last long - their records bemoan the fact that Aborigines won't stay on the mission because they are employed. Aboriginal Protection Board records say the same; though rations etc. were provided for old people. There are APB census counts of people (by 'caste', sex, age), and sometimes by name.

Inter-tribal marriage, children, really didn't start until the 1930s, when different groups were herded together from long distances onto government reserves (often called 'missions'). Those kids were not abandoned on the side of the track, I know lots of them, and they know their siblings, who stayed, who was taken. This knowledge is handed down in families, but it's also documented in government records. Here the removals were a mid 20th century phenomenon, and done by welfare workers in cars and by train. Over the years I've heard many stories from people born in the 1930s-60s of what happened in their family. I've been approached by others who were removed to help find their family.

There are stacks of books: histories, family stories, autobiographies, that tell the real story. I'm happy to provide a comprehensive reading list. Or if you don't believe what you read, introduce you to Aboriginal people who actually know what happened.

You can stop purveying myths.

John Big Mac, is that so, or is it all a figment of your imagination to suit your racists narrative. Now would you like to post evidence to support what you say.

Cherful: They regarded native people as almost a part of the wilderness, To be studied like flora and fauna.

Yes they did. It was because they had not come across any humans that were still living in the Stone Age of some 50000 years ago.

Cherful: It is only over time that they came to very much see the humanness of the native peoples by having. Much more close contact with them.

I believe it was Captain Phillip that issued the order that the Natives must be treated with respect. Even going so far as to suffer a spearing because he had transgressed one of their Laws. It was subsequent Governors that treated the natives badly.

Paul1405: or is it all a figment of your imagination to suit your racists narrative.

Don’t get yer knickers in a knot Paul. Unfortunately it’s all too true. Even the Lady who wrote the “Rabbit Proof Fence” said a lot of what they put in the Movie was BS. It made the Movie more interesting & got people talking. That’s all. The NT chap whose job it was to oversee the round up described how the Half Castes & Intertribal Children were shunned by the tribes. The kids were beaten & raped constantly. It’s all in his Report. They had some sort of Commission a few years back & the Aboriginal Groups tried to get his Report banned from the proceedings. He wasn’t talking about Townies here.

Anyone remember that?

Just to clear things up & put a bit of prospective into this Child Stealing thing. What makes you think it was only Aboriginal Children that were stolen. Many White mothers had their children taken off them too. Especially, if they were born out of Wedlock. My first wife is an example of this. She had a daughter forcefully taken from her at the birth. She didn’t even see her child. Poor families in the Depression often had their children taken away from them & Prostitutes were a target also.

JayB I'm not getting my knickers in a knot, but I hate it when people post hearsay and their own thoughts and make out its fact.
I live in inner Sydney, don't forget 2/3's of the Aboriginal population live in the eastern states and its a myth that the majority live in remote locations, 75% live in cities, 2/3's are under 30 years of age. and Redfern in inner Sydney is Australia's largest Aboriginal community.
Just yesterday I met for the first time a young Aboriginal activists "Dave", a well educated young bloke who is pro-active in Aboriginal affairs, our topic for discussion came down to the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi. and the Maori Land Court system in NZ, and its implications for Maori, many Aboriginal people want a treaty, but its not as clear cut as it might appear.
'The Rabbit Proof Fence' an enjoyable movie, but as you say a fair amount of licence was taken, and for good reason, people like their movies to be successful at the box office, otherwise no more movies.
Although history is important, as is the here and now, but the future is far more important than both. Most of the threads discussion has concentrated on the history and what's happening now, but little discussion on the future for Aboriginal people, and they do have a future and lets hope it is a positive one.

Political Correctness,
It simply doesn't do to recognise the children from the 'mainstream' population who were State Wards. Or their shabby, often harsh and cruel, treatment by the State that was supposed to protect them.

<Forgotten Australians,
Forgotten Australians' is a term the Australian Senate has used to describe children who were brought up in orphanages, children's homes, institutions or foster care in Australia. It is generally used to describe those in care between the period 1920-1970 but can refer to earlier and later periods. Forgotten Australians may also identify themselves as "care leavers, homies, state wards or ex-residents¹ "

Approximately 500,000 children were placed in institutional care, many of whom experienced neglect and abuse. On November 16th 2009, the Australian Government formally apologised to Forgotten Australians and child migrants on behalf of the nation.

Accessing records

A child's care could have been arranged by the state, by a church or welfare organisation or organised privately.

If you were a state ward or the Government was involved in your care in other ways, a government agency should hold a record of this. If you were not under state care, you will need to contact the organisation that was responsible for your placement. Please consult the state specific sections of this page for more information about accessing records.

Victoria - current records
Victoria - historical records (over 100 years old)
New South Wales
Queensland
South Australia
Tasmania
Western Australia
Australian Capital Territory
Northern Territory
For further information about Forgotten Australians, accessing your records and support services we recommend visiting the Find & Connect Australia and CLAN : Care Leavers Australia Network websites.

(1. Forgotten Australians: Supporting survivors of childhood institutional care in Australia / Alliance for Forgotten Australian 2008)>
http://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/c.php?g=245251&p=1633053

Political Correctness,
It simply doesn't do to recognise the babies taken from young and other mums from the 'mainstream' population.

<Forced adoption was the practice of taking the babies from unmarried mothers, against their will, and placing them for adoption. Former Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard offered a national apology to those affected by forced adoptions in 2013.

The Australian Senate Inquiry Report into forced adoption practices found that babies were taken illegally by doctors, nurses, social workers and religious figures, sometimes with the assistance of adoption agencies or other authorities, and adopted to married couples.

Some mothers were coerced, drugged and illegally had their consent taken. Many of these adoptions occurred after the mothers were sent away by their families 'due to the stigma associated with being pregnant and unmarried'. The removals occurred predominately in the second half of the twentieth century. It was a practice which has been described as 'institutionalised baby farming'>

http://tinyurl.com/forcedadoptionaus

I live in inner Sydney, don't forget 2/3's of the Aboriginal population live in the eastern states.

I totally get that & they wouldn't have a clue what Aboriginal Culture is. If fact, for most of them, the only wild life they've ever seen would be in a ZOO.

This is why I make a big distinction between Townies & Bushies. This difference seems to get deliberately confused when discussing the Aboriginal Issue.

Paul1405: Redfern in inner Sydney is Australia's largest Aboriginal community.

My Great Grandmother was born, grew up & died in Redfern. I believe the House or where it used to be is now a Chemist Shop.

OTB: The removals occurred predominately in the second half of the twentieth century. It was a practice which has been described as 'institutionalised baby farming'

As I said My first wife was one of those mothers She was Mentally Ill because of the trauma & I paid for it.

Those who doubt that the plight of half-caste children in aboriginal communities was dire and that a large number of the so-called Stolen Generation were actually such kids being rescued from diabolical situations, would do well to acquaint themselves with the case of Peter Gunner.

By way of background, after the Stolen Generation report the aboriginal legal services were looking for a test case to prove in court the 'truth' of the claims and thereby obtain compensation which the government would be encouraged to offer to all other claimants. Gunner was selected as one of the best examlples of a stolen child.

You can look up the details but the final revelations in court were that Gunner's mother had tried to kill him to hide her shame at having a half-caste or what the aboriginals called 'yella fella'. Such a child was a constant shamefully reminder for the unfortunate girls who bore them. They were often killed or left in the outback. Gunner was left on an ant's nest but was rescued by an aunt who then handed him over to authorities.

Needless to say Gunner didn't win his case. Indeed there has never been a single proven example of an aboriginal kid being 'stolen' for reasons other than their welfare.

The details of history is not all that important, whether Gunner's mother put him on an ant hill, or not. is of little consequence in the wider context of Aboriginal disadvantage in contemporary Australia. The use of specific historical examples like the Gunner case, and then to extrapolate from that the notion that all claims must be suspect, to be perfectly clear that is the inference, blame the victim. Playing the blame game is counter productive to producing positive future outcomes.

"I totally get that & they wouldn't have a clue what Aboriginal Culture is. If fact, for most of them, the only wild life they've ever seen would be in a ZOO."
True, one of the casualties of urbanisation of indigenous people the world over is the loss of language and culture, Aboriginals are no different. That is not to say that with effort both can't make a comeback to some degree, there are examples of that. There are other pressing indigenous issues that need urgent attention, health, education, employment, housing etc. What circumstances brought indigenous people to their present state of disadvantage is of little comfort and certainly no excuse to dodge the issues.

Paul1405: blame the victim.

Unfortunately Paul some times the Victim is the cause of their own misfortune. UnPC I know, but fact.

Paul1405,

You originally thought John Big Mac's assertions about half-caste kids were racist fabrications and asked for corroboration.

I helped out and provided the corroboration. Just one example mind you of a very wide and well-known practice. If you read the Gunner case transcripts you'll find quite a number of people both white and non-white, describing the practice.

So now you've decided that "[t]he details of history is not all that important". So you thought they were important right up to the time when the details showed things you'd prefer not to be so. A seeker after the truth our Paul is not.

Now to your other points. I wasn't extrapolating from one example. It is a fact that there's never been a case of a stolen child proved in court despite several attempts. Indeed there's never been any examples proven of a child taken from loving parents simply because they were aboriginal although that was the claim of the stolen generation advocates.

And I wasn't blaming the victim. The child taken into care is as blameless as can be imagined. And usually its poor mother is more to be pitied than blamed. But equally, those who took to child, put it in care and gave it an education that it would never have received otherwise are also blameless. Good people doing good things in a bad situation.

OTB,

Thanks for that - most people have no idea what
happened during those times. I know I didn't
until I saw that TV series not so long ago.

Dear JayB,

I'm so sorry to learn about your family's history.

Dear MHaze,

Those were painful times.

Regardless of the cause of their misfortune, which can be a chicken and the egg debate, society in my view has an obligation to do something about their misfortune. Nothing to do with political correctness but a lot to do with what is morally right.
We all have our stories, I have mine. I don't claim Aboriginality although I carry such genes. A lie existed in my mothers family for over 130 years claiming they had "Spanish blood" to explain the darkness of their skin, my mum liked to refer to her complexion as "olive". A cousin did a family tree back in the 1990's, and exclaimed to me one day "look at this old image of grandma's, grandma, she's as black as the ace of spades." I told her "I'm older than you and I remember 'Old Man,,," visiting in his big old car back in the 1960's and he was as black as the ace of spades to, he and the tribe didn't look too "Spanish" to me.

Dear Paul,

In my "salad days" (when I was fresh and green) I
would have loved to look Spanish or anything else
"exotic." Anything that was different would have
been just great. I dreamt of darker skin. But
instead I had a peaches and cream complexion.
I did not think my red hair was different enough.
Anyway, we're never satisfied are w, with what
we've been given? It should be what's inside that
matters.

OTB wrote:"Forced adoption was the practice of taking the babies from unmarried mothers, against their will, and placing them for adoption."

Its both easy and natural that mothers, 20 or 40 years after the event, might want to rationalise their decision to give up their kids by saying they were forced - drugged, coerced, tricked, whatever. But was it true at the time or were they, and those who advised them, just doing what all knew to be in the best interests of the child.

The Post Adoption Resource Centre, which worked with many relinquishing mothers, concluded (in a report to the 1993 NSW Law Reform Commission investigation) that ‘’many, possibly a majority of the birth mothers seen at the centre, described the adoption as having been in the child’s best interests in view of their own youth, lack of family support, inadequate finances and unreadiness for parenthood’’.

Jayb: My Great Grandmother was born, grew up & died in Redfern. I believe the House or where it used to be is now a Chemist Shop.

No, I looked it up on Google Earth & it was 80 Bathurst Street which is the Entrance to Avant Insurance on the Corner of George & Bathurst.

Paul1405: The details of history is not all that important, whether Gunner's mother put him on an ant hill, or not. is of little consequence in the wider context of Aboriginal disadvantage in contemporary Australia.

Oops: suddenly the details are of no importance. Well I'llllll Beeee. Isn't that just great. Suddenly details like the real facts are unimportant.

Paul1405: That is not to say that with effort both can't make a comeback to some degree, there are examples of that.

Well I suggested that at some other time & was put down for it. Those who want to take up Traditional Life should be encouraged. Taken out to the Bush Stripped naked, handed a lump of rock & told go for it. Never to darken any Western Civilization ever again. Those that wish to stay should then be supervised by their well paid Peers to clean up their act. No drugs, piss, be taught to live in a Western Society the Way Western Society lives. Except for some White Bogans, as shown on TV sometimes, who are totally despicable.

They can't have it both ways. They have to accept that white society is here to stay & if they want to live in it then they must conform to it.

mhaze: The child taken into care is as blameless as can be imagined. But equally, those who took to child, put it in care and gave it an education that it would never have received otherwise are also blameless. Good people doing good things in a bad situation.

You are so right.

Hi Foxy, others on here keep wanting to give history lesson about what took place in the past, which is fine, as far as it goes, who done what and where, who said this and who said that. These lessons in history in their self have no relevance to future outcomes, unless of course the teller wants to use it as a distorted justification to do nothing but blame the victim. To give an analogy the bloke who walks against the red light, and gets hit by a car, is just as much a victim of road carnage, as is the bloke who had the green light, and likewise got hit by a car. Do you take green to the hospital, and leave red on the road, because it was his fault, do you discount red's treatment compared to greens's, because it was his fault, or do you treat them equally and sheet home the blame later?
The burning question for me, is what does the future hold for Indigenous Australians.

Jayb, now you are confusing traditional life with a modern existence in a predominately western society. To retain a link to ones culture through language, having the necessary respect, having an understanding of traditions and protocols etc. Whilst at the same time living in, and being part of a modern western society, can't be done?
I have a living example of someone who has achieved that very existence not sitting 3 meters away. My partner "T" is a Maori who speaks the native language fluently, understands most aspects of her indigenous culture, the protocols, the traditions, the genealogy, right down to the basics of what was once everyday traditional life. Yet at the same time she can hold down a full time job, mix with people of learning, and can count two former New Zealand PM's as personal friends. Not bad for a woman, who as a little girl got flogged on the legs at school, a school of 95% Maori kids, for speaking her language, not English, and not using her school teacher given pakeha name.

Paul1405: I have a living example of someone who has achieved that very existence not sitting 3 meters away. My partner "T" is a Maori who speaks the native language fluently, understands most aspects of her indigenous culture, the protocols, the traditions, the genealogy, right down to the basics of what was once everyday traditional life.

Well one set of my Grandparents were Scot. They Spoke Gaelic fluently when they would fight. They spoke two dialects of Aboriginal when they really fought. All of us kids were enrolled in the Caledonian Society & heard all the great stories of the Brave Scot. I'll slip something in later. Come New Years Day the Highland Gamed were held at the Showgrounds & a great time was had by all. For the rest of the year except for certain days Like Bobby Burns Day etc, they were all just ordinary Aussies. Then the Italians arrived & added more ceremony's. Catholic not Press the buttons. They had their Saints Days but during the week they were Australians. Most of the Dark people in Ayr were either Kannaka of some Indiginious. they were hard workers in the fields & were paid the same rate as White people. In fact the Coles owned a Cane farm. They were just Aussies & treated as such.

When I was about 10 I went to see the Movie “Rob Roy” The old black & White one. I went to Grandma’s because she was Scot & I’d sit at her knee & she’d tell me the stories of old Scotland. I told her all about the Movie. She grabbed the broom & beat the livin’ daylights out of me. I was never to mention that name in her hoose ever again.
Cont

Cont.
I took off like a scalded cat & went to see Uncle Andy Grandma’s brother, a recluse, but he too would tell me some of the more gruesome stories. He too bashed me & off I went to Auntie Aggie, Grandma’s Sister. Black & Blue , crying & wondering what itr was all about. Antie washed me up & just said. Laddie, in this family there a best some things are not spoken of. & that was the end of it. I never did find out what it was all about.

Some famous names I might drop, Hannays, Lennoys, the Tallises, The Lampton's & a few others. I went to school with their fathers. They were my mates. We were all just ordinary Australians together.

Then came the Educated ones to stir up the trouble, combine that with the opening up of the Camps & moving all the Bush Indigenous into towns. That was really bad news. They didn't know anything about living in a town. they had never seen electricity. The Dunny was still out the back in those days but that didn't matter they just went anywhere they wanted to. Adults, Children. They were given houses, All weatherboard in those days. Within months there were no floors left & they started pulling the timber off the walls for their cooking fires. We lived next door to one family. They didn’t speak English or just some very basic. There were Tribal Wars on Street Corners every night. Some were very serious. Spears & Nulla Nullas & blood everywhere.

That is when all this Crap started. The Educated ones were in charge of the Agencies & milked them for all they were worth, & still are, whilst exploiting the new arrivals.

Yes, you can have your indigenous culture, be it, Aboriginal, Islander, Scot, English, Italian or Greek but during the week just be ordinary Australians.

To JayB
Don't mix Kanakas with aboriginals.
They are totally different peoples and are smart and have a soft nature.
I have spent a lot of time in the MOST remote kanak areas in New now Vanuatu.
They are hard workers , inovative , and have a NOn agressive even when fueled with local strong grog.
Nice people.
I have also worked with Fijians , Maoris , Tongans , Papuans all in their countries. Plus many other Pacific Island nations.

I have also worked with Aboriginals in their communities.
Different
John Big Mac

BJM: Don't mix Kanakas with aboriginals. They are totally different peoples and are smart and have a soft nature.

You don't have to tell me matey. I grew up with them. I fact the house I brought in Ayr, (Sutcliffe's Estate or Struggle town) Was part of the original old Kalamia Estate's Kanaka Barracks. It still had the holes in the walls where bar was passed through & they were chained up at night.

All those people I mentioned previously are Kanaka decedents. Except for the Lamptons They were 3 part Aboriginal 1 part Indian. They were never put on a Reservation because they were hard workers. & Old man Lampton & my dad went to Kalamia School together. George would walk down to the Barrs & Dad & he would double bank to the Kalamia School.
George was the best Winger for Brothers for about 20 years. Once he was given the Ball, that was a goal. Other Aboriginal indigenous were the Daisy Brothers. Vern was such a good player that there was a Grand Final between Mt.Isa & Townsville once, & they let Vern out of jail for the day to Play. Mt Isa won. We went to school together although they were a few years behind me.

Other players from Ayr originally are the Sailors. (one of my diggers in the Army Reserve.) Sam Backo also a Kanaka descendent but from Ingham.

Also we had a number of Kanaka Princes & Princesses in Ayr & one Kanaka Princess from Proserpine married to a Relative. They often went back to their Islands for special Ceremonies.

They were upset when the Indigenous Aboriginals were forced into towns because it gave them (Kanakas) a bad name.

Hey, & I hate Football.

Famous Rugby Relations of mine, Gary Wellington (4th. Cousin). (Married his teacher in Grade 12, pregnant). Kelvin O'Shea. (Great Uncle.) But they were white.

Anyway read my earlier Post again you may have misinterpreted it.

Jayb well said,
That sums up what the solution to the problem is.

"Yes, you can have your indigenous culture, be it, Aboriginal, Islander, Scot,
English, Italian or Greek but during the week just be ordinary Australians."

Hi John Big Mac,

I moved with my wife and kids over to New Zealand back in 1969 for a couple of years, and worked with (and my wife and kids mixed with) Maoris and Samoans, Cook Islanders and Niueans and Tongans. The difference was striking - Polynesians seemed to have a completely different life ethic, they worked hard, partied hard and lived uproariously, while our experiences of Aboriginal people were quite different.

The only way I could explain the differences back then revolved around the notion that in one type of society, people put in a hell of a lot and got a hell of a lot back. In another type of society, people conserved energy, put little in and got little back.

Later I tried to explain the differences in terms of input-output - in one type of society, people managed by putting in and taking out a great deal of energy; in another type of society, people put in very little and got back very little, but expended very little energy to do it: so either a high input-high output society; or a low input-low output society.

I suppose both types of economy or society worked, but it did seem that more was sort of spun off from the high-energy model, more LIFE, more enthusiasm, more uproarious (that's the only word I can think of) and creative living. In one sort of society, people got by; in another, they almost exploded with energy, life, enjoyment, noise, fun.

Coming back to SA, those impressions were reinforced, much as I didn't want to admit it. So we thought that somehow that Polynesian ethic could be replicated here. There's forty years down the drain :) Such is life.

Still, my wife would be happy to know that there are forty thousand Indigenous graduates now, that's what she worked for, and another forty by the end of the next decade, probably. It's a start. So it was still worth it.

Cheers,

Joe

Hi Joe,

What my partner puts the success of her people down to is social cohesion. The Maori have never thought of themselves as inferior to the Pakeha, always believing in their equality with others, despite many setbacks at the hands of the European. Respect plays an important part in Maori culture, respect for elders, kaumatua, respect for your iwi, tribe, respect for whanau, family, and helping family where ever possible is of paramount importance.
The Marae plays an extremely import part in Maori life, a place to gather and carry on the tribal cultural traditions of language and protocols. No meeting ever goes ahead until the whakapapa, genealogy, has been observed. The interaction and support given by Maori to each other, despite often their meager resources, is tremendous at times. of course respect for oneself goes without saying.
On the other side of the coin, my partner doesn't like watching that old classic Kiwi movie, 'Once Were Warriors', cuts too close to the bone, too close to the truth she says, in too many cases of her urbanized, disadvantaged, brothers and sisters.

Paul405, "On the other side of the coin, my partner doesn't like watching that old classic Kiwi movie, 'Once Were Warriors', cuts too close to the bone, too close to the truth she says, in too many cases of her urbanized, disadvantaged, brothers and sisters"

A movie with strong themes and well worth watching.

You should be aware though that what your partner and you are saying and many would support you both, is that the very narrow feminist 'take' and approach to DV in Australia, as exemplified by the example of Rosie Batty (and now a strategically 'feminist' general), is simplistic, poorly conceived and will not help women by reducing DV.

Even the mantra 'there is no excuse for DV' has warts on it, excluding the possibility and examination of the contribution of any other factors outside of being male.

I believe that violence needs to be subjected to study in the broad and by independent researchers. Of course there may be socioeconomic factors at work, drugs and alcohol too. Political correctness also militates against identifying causes and providing needed counselling assistance. It is simply 'not on' to identify indigenous as a target group for help. That could be discrimination.

However feminist PC also holds that because men are the offenders they should be controlled, punished and directed to do better, and excluded from services and support as (part-)atonement for their original sin of 'patriarchy'. As an aside, is it mere coincidence that so many feminists were raised by their mums as Roman Catholics.

In politics, statesmen/women are in very short supply unfortunately. That is not being helped by cheap 'Gotcha' journalism and political populism.

Paul,

On the fact that the Maori do not feel inferior; an old New Zealander mate of mine used to tell the story of an American Officer, in WWII, who complained to him that he couldn't get to first base with the local Maori girls. They'd talk to him and were friendly but would never go on a date.
My mate told him the brutal truth "You're white, so that makes you inferior".

Is Mise, my partner has told me that back in the 1960's growing up, her parents were very strict. When "T" aged about 18, and her "adopted" sister started to attend country dances, about once a month. mum would have uncle come in his old car take them there and pick them up at 11pm and bring them home. Mum laid down the law, with a strict warning, no going outside, and certainly no alcohol or cigarettes. And "T"stuck to those rules, otherwise mum and dad would find out, and no more dances. Mum and dad used to go sometimes themselves , uncles made up the band.

Hi Paul,

Earlier, you noted,

" Respect plays an important part in Maori culture, respect for elders, kaumatua, respect for your iwi, tribe, respect for whanau, family, and helping family where ever possible is of paramount importance.
"The Marae plays an extremely import part in Maori life, a place to gather and carry on the tribal cultural traditions of language and protocols. No meeting ever goes ahead until the whakapapa, genealogy, has been observed."

In a host of ways, Maori economy and society were and are very different from Aboriginal economy and society: that huge difference of cultivation versus hunting-gathering, for a start; the single language versus five hundred languages, for another. Cultivator societies seem to require or create elaborate systems of regulation and control, hierarchies, priesthoods, fixed and fortified localities, much more highly organised defence of whenua/country, etc. - factors which were and are now much less likely to be present in many Aboriginal societies, simply because they were unnecessary. [Discuss]

In fact, it's probably very misleading to lump both Maori and Aboriginal societies under the same term of 'Indigenous' without some further differentiation.

On the other hand, Maori and Australian Indigenous participation at universities is currently very similar, with comparable numbers of students and graduates - although Australian numbers are growing much faster (8%) than those for New Zealand (2%). And possibly Australian Indigenous people have urbanised more than Maori people, and are less likely to depend on their land ?

Joe

Hi Joe, you make a number of good points, re Maori V's Aboriginal, and I accept them to be so. The Maori language has made a substantial comeback in recent years. My partner spent 4 years around the year 2000 teaching Maori to both Maori and Pakeha adults in NZ, night classes, and on balance she said Pakeha make the better students, not me however I understand many words and phrases but my pronunciation is too Aussie.
Well, tomorrows is Waitangi Day and like several thousand others we will make our way to Merrylands in Sydney, to celebrate a day of culture and entertainment, food stalls, market type stalls, and overdue catching up with friends and relatives. There are 2 other locations around Sydney I know of where Waitangi Day will be celebrated.

Hi Paul,

I hope that tomorrow is a very fulfilling and rewarding Waitangi Day ! I've been to Waitangi two or three times, I tried to translate the Maori on the monument there and marvelled at the massive canoes up the hill - it was great to see a couple of shots of the meeting hall on SBS tonight. I have a couple of nieces over there who will in the thick of it :)

Best wishes,

Joe

Hi Joe,

My partner "T" is from the Bay of Islands and we have visited the treaty grounds at Waitangi many times. "T" is of the IWi Ngapuhi (1/3 of all Maori are Ngapuhi) from up north. To give you an example of how Maori have respect for those that have passed on. "T"'s Mum died in 1969, the family are now working to restore Mums grave to what it was, like all graves it has deteriorated with time, 46 years is a along time, Next month we'll return to the crematory in the bush to have a 2nd unveiling for Mum and spend time with the family, as well a couple of nights at Paihia/Waitangi.

"I tried to translate the Maori on the monument" Will get "T" to do that next month. I believe the Big Waka was lasted used for a "Chief" it was Prince Charles some time ago, made from 3 tree trunks, the Ladies Waka is a good size to.

Paul,
Just as an aside, Maori soldiers that I knew in Japan in the 1950s picked up Japanese at an enviable, indeed sometimes astounding, rate.

I remembered 'maru' being a common word in both languages, so i looked it up just now and it's common to a lot of cultures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maru

Is Mise, Manu in Maori = Bird, Moni is Money.

Is Mise, interesting, when Maori talk of the coppers, even today, they refer to them as pirihi mana, which actually means police power. "T" said that the police exercised a lot of power in the past. Police would come and up lift kids from there parents (sounds familiar), because of too much drinking. too much party. There was a belief that the police had the first and last say, and you could not overcome their power, they didn't listen to what Maori people had to say. "T" also is telling me the police were partly right to take the children, but it was hard for the parents as the children were placed in welfare, often without proper documentation. Later on the police had to apply the same procedures to take Maori children as they did for Pakeha children, who were also taken by the police at times.

Hi Paul,

Isn't New Zealand so beautiful ? I remember driving over the hill to Hokianga and bam ! - there it was - such an amazing panorama. I thought, I've got to move here. And the same at Kawhia. And Whitianga. And Matamata. And so many other wonderful places.

We once drove up from Wanganui in a very wet winter, pelting down, I think in 1998, we came up through the middle, through their vast ten-mile 'desert' to Taupo, had a leisurely lunch in Raetihi (I do still remember our incredibly beautiful Maori waitress: once a lech, always a lech; what can I say, she was gorgeous) and little did we know that the road was always being closed behind us about an hour after we had passed through. We saw a truckload of carrots that had overturned on a sharp bend into a creek somewhere in the mountains about half way through there. It's an exciting place, New Zealand.

Our nieces are also Ngapuhi, from west of Whangarei, Nahi. Lovely girls, I'm so proud of them.

So why doesn't our government invade/invite New Zealand and drag it/invite it to come closer to/amalgamate with Australia ?! You know it's only right.

Joe

Hi Joe,
I believe back in the 1880's there was a strong push for NZ to be part of the Commonwealth of Australia, but that failed more or less on the grounds of money and debt.
I find Kiwi's, particularly Maori, very parochial, fiercely proud of who they are, a genuine pride, yet at the same time they see themselves as New Zealanders with a common bond with the rest of the population. Unfortunately I don't see the same traits in many Aboriginal people.

Little known facts.

When Australia became a Commonwealth in 1901 there was Legislation put to New Zeeland to become part of Australia. It was taken to New Zeeland & signed but apparently it needs one more signature.

Hi JayB, It took a bit to get Western Australia to join the rest in federation, only a yes vote supported by a large majority of Kalgoorlie miners got the referendum up. Ned Kelly wanted to form The Republic of North East Victoria in about 1880, I suppose with Ned as its first President. All N.ed got for his trouble was hung.

Hi Paul,

Whenever there is any suggestion in Australia for New Zealand and Australia to be joined up, one can hear a strange whirring sound from the east, as five million Kiwis start paddling like buggery the other way.

But such periodic moments of madness fade away, thankfully.

Cheers,

Joe