I think that I may be diving into a political and moral whirlpool here, however with the increasing concern over which is the best way to deal with the Boat People/Asylum Seeker situation, the question needs to be asked: Is there anyone out there who can come up with a sensible solution to this problem, a problem that if left unchecked can risk tearing this country apart?

We are one of many countries in the world that is currently plagued with this moral dilemma. Nobody seems to have the answer to what started off being a trickle of Boat People, and has since grown out of all proportion.

One reason for this mass exodus is that the Middle Eastern countries have become so destabilized by warfare, that the occupants just want to get out and get to a country that may offer them a more peaceful and lucrative lifestyle.

Another reason given is that it is all a carefully orchestrated ploy by the Islamist`s to infiltrate western Christian countries bringing their faith to power.

Whatever the real reason behind this world upset, we cannot at our own peril, simply ignore the situation and hope that it will just go away.

We must remember that every country has it`s own right to protect it`s own border by all means possible, otherwise Passports, Customs, Border Checks and the like would be rendered useless overnight!

A realistic issue that affects Australia is the financial cost to the community of taking in these AS/BP and providing them with the necessities of life, a problem that is already costing the Government and the Taxpayers dearly in what can be considered to be "shaky financial times" ( a world Recession is only a spit away )

The current Federal Government is realistic enough to realize that a country`s economy cannot survive, simply by printing more money, and we are now drowning in debt both Public and Private.
This National indebtedness is going to require some very austere
financial measures, to claw our way back into the black, so can we really afford more financial impost?

"One reason for this mass exodus is that the Middle Eastern countries have become so destabilized by warfare, that the occupants just want to get out and get to a country that may offer them a more peaceful and lucrative lifestyle."

To me this does not ring true because on the boats that arrives in Australia approx 95% on most boats were young men.

In Europe approx 72% of arrivals are men.

Crackup, sad to say it but I think this one will be let go through to the keeper so another generation can deal with it.

We are caught in a dammed if you do/don't situation because on the one hand we have those like ourselves who see the growing need to tighten our borders, and the do gooders who want all humanity to be provided with what we have.

The reality is that I think we will have to wait until our world recession/depression sets in so we can effectively hit rock bottom. Once there people, the do gooders included will be faced with a 'no choice' situation whereby someone at some point will have to make the toughest decision ever, similar to that of Hitler, only for different reasons.

Im of the opinion this is the start of WW111 which is the displacement of millions of people, forcing them to first world countries that are all struggling to cope with expenditure.

The writing is on the wall. Its just that too many cant see it. Not only that, but they are already spitting chips at the proposed cut backs and talk of a GST hike, along with the inclusion of fresh food, not to mention our dwindling health, education and overall strain on welfare.

Sadly, it appears we still are the lucky country, its just that you have to be born elsewhere to share the luck. Cant see that changing soon.

Hi there REHCTUB...

Butch you are so right when you opine '...I'm of the opinion this is the start of WWlll...'. And the attempted Islamisation of many Western Nations by 'force'. All of which are clear indicators that the West is at war, with all those monotheistic countries of the Middle East. It's a pity that many of our political leaders don't acknowledge it, and react accordingly before it's too late ?

Sink the boats. Any sovereign country has the right to protect its borders.

We have the solution.

We applied it, & it worked.

The trick now is to ignore the bleeding hearts, but more importantly, only elect representatives who really do want to stop the boats.

That means don't vote green, they want them.

Don't vote Labor. They pay lip service to stopping the boats, but are more interested in buying the votes of the Muslims now here by not stopping them, rather than actually stopping them.

Don't vote for Turnbull. He also will do anything for a vote. He is not interested in us. His only interests are in legitimising his position as PM, by getting elected himself, & catering to the elite end of town. He has more in common with KRudd than he ever has with us.

Elect this slimeball PM, & the only way to stop the boats he will start running again will be ttbn's system.

Yes I know. We had better start pushing the Nationals to run three cornered contests at elections again. In the meanwhile, better a Labor government by name, than a lefty ratbag leading the coalition

So what is the matter with a lefty rat-bag running the Liberal side of govt; it's the best choice you ever made. There does not have to be any legalisation of Turnbull he was unanimously elected leader by the lefty faction of the Coalition party.

The door was widely opened for Turnbull by his colleague Abbott. So a decision had to be made, and thankfully it was the right one. Turnbull now enjoys probably 85% of the AU voting public. So he will be quite safe as long as he does the right thing by Labor.

Why does keeping asylum seekers penned up like mongrel dogs have to do with stopping boats. Can,t we stop boats without incarcerating kids and women. Or is that because of something Abbott promised.

He had no problem breaking every other promise he ever made so why the difference with locking up innocent people.

Only this morning we had reports of Islamist killing Christians in refugee camps and taking the girls to satisfy their filfthy lusts. The left are totally clueless as the immorality of their own lives blind them from thinking anywhere near rational. They say they don't want to discriminate and hence have already endorsed rapist, thugs and those who hate Western culture coming into this country. It is a shame their croc tears were not towards the unborn. Unfortunately those who have taken UN posts and have authority have no intention of trying to preserve Christian culture. Every other culture is exalted. Thank God that in the end that God will have His way. The Israel hating brigade will be defeated. Unfortunately much blood is to be shed before that happens. Whether you call it ww3 or whatever we are in for much bloodshed. The regressives are going to reap on society what they have sown.

The first element of any viable solution is to withdraw from the refugee-convention. That convention is paradoxical and ties our hands, preventing any ethical or humane solution.

This will allow us decouple the permission to physically enter this continent from accepting all arrivals into our society along with its social benefits.

I find it immoral to deny others entry to this continent (unless they pose a criminal/health/terrorist threat), but we are under no obligation (other than this stupid refugee-convention) to give them anything just because they somehow managed to physically arrive.

Finally, bureaucracy can only work with rigid formal criteria that are divorced from reality. Currently these are supplied by the refugee-convention. In contrast, real people are able to use common-sense - and would indeed use it when it comes down to their own money, so determination of "who is a refugee that ought to be supported" should rest with ordinary real people: those people (and their NGOs) whose hearts go out for the people that arrive and are less fortunate then themselves, should be able to help them with their own money. On the other hand, common-sense will detect economic migrants, so such people will find no economic benefits and no incentive to come to Australia.

Yuyutsu, whats immoral about it, we cant even provide for ourselves anymore, and we still have a car industry of sorts.

If these people had skills to offer, and if we had jobs in need of those skills maybe then, but to simply open the flood gates is just not a sensible approach.

Doog, these people in detention came here illegally. End of story!

Currently there 105,237 people sleeping rough in Australia including many homeless children compared to less than 300 in detention. Where is the anger to support the the unseen and uncollected homeless.

At least those in detention have a bed and meals supplied.

http://www.homelessnessaustralia.org.au/index.php/about-homelessness/homeless-statistics

I don't understand what Crackup means.
We do not have a boat people problem thanks to Tony Abbott.
Granted we do have Rudd/Gillard boat people problem and sooner or later
we will have to say to them that they have to go back and perhaps those
that caused them to flee have forgotten all about them by now.

We cannot be expected to look after them for the rest of their lives.
Most are youngish men and they can go back and sort out their own
countries mess.

Yes Rechtub we will find a recession soon enough as neither party is
prepared to face that which is breathing down their necks.
I notice in the last few days both Turnbull & Morrison are talking up
growth growth growth. Someone has to take them by the whatevers and
and give them a lesson on "The End of Growth".

It is strange that so few economists have woken up to why all countries
are facing lowering growth and indeed some like Germany are effectively
already at zero growth.
Most economists are still at the point of wondering why austerity,
high interest rates, low interest rates or stimulus don't do what they are supposed to do.

They do not understand what has happened energy and its ERoEI.

Dear Rehctub,

It is immoral to physically block people's way, not allowing them to enter one of God's wonderful continents. The only exception is self-defence, such as if they carry a contagious disease or if they are reasonably likely to commit crimes against you or to terrorise you. It may even be argued that you may briefly stop them at the border to ensure that they do not fall into any of those categories.

That said, you are under no obligation to give them anything, not even food and medical-care, certainly not jobs. Once this stupid refugee-convention is withdrawn, you will not even be obliged to protect them, not even to save them if they drown - only not to physically block their way.

In summary, although they will be able to enter this continent, the gates to Australian society will remain locked. If they come for economic gain, then they will find that there isn't any - and will inform their friends behind accordingly.

BTW, they won't be taking any jobs: although Australians would technically be able to employ them, their wages and other expenses would not be recognised as a tax deduction.

The people are fleeing from over crowded camps where many have been up to four years. There is lack of food and medicine. Another winter will kill off many.

One doesn't take babies and carry the age on their backs, if where they are is safe.

Many are women with five six young kids, pushing a stroller, on the way to link up with fathers etc who have gone ahead.

There are over four million displaced people in the region, under canvas, with no income.

Added to their woes, the world has cut aid money. I believe many are on one meal a day.

They have als come to the realisation, they will not be returning to their homes in any foreseeable future.

Yes, they are seeking a better life. One where they are not in danger starving or freezing to death.

well Flo, you.ve hit the nail on the head 5 to 6 kids.

These families know full well they cant even provide for one child, yet they choose to have 5 or 6 and there in lies the problem.

But, as sad as life is, is it our problem?

Now if we had no homeless here, or zero unemployment , money to burn and no debt, we may be in a position to help, but that's simply not the case Flo.

So we are therefore faced with a huge choice Flo, what do we go without to provide for these invaders, remembering, we cant provide for our own.

What sort of men would go off and leave their wife & children behind ?
Would you do it ? I wouldn't !

The major problem is that they have made a mess of their countries and
why would anyone think they would not make a mess of any country where they come to a stop ?

Maybe we should look to other countries to see if someone else has the 'answer'.

It seems Japan doesn't have too many problems with its Muslim population nor any issues with boat people etc.

I wonder why... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/30/japan-says-it-must-look-after-its-own-before-allowing-syrian-refugees-in

Mhaze, well Japan does not have any trouble with moslems because they
do not have any moslems.

Mhaze:

At last I must thank you for recognizing the aim of my subject article!

You have posted a very interesting and succinct observation with your
newspaper web-link, which I have circulated to all of my E-mail
contacts.

I do believe in giving credit where it is due, and also criticism when it is deserved!

The burning question is " If Japan`s Abe can do it, then why cannot we?"

Dear Crackcup,

There is nothing anyone can do about this problem. There are certain forces at work in the world that are beyond the control of governments. This is one of them.

The challenge is firstly acknowledging why the problem exists so that people can understand what is happening and secondly working out a method to manage it.

My view is that we are seeing an unstoppable migration of the world's peoples as a result of five centuries of globalisation. It's just part of the globalisation process that has brought about the interconnection of the world political-economy.

Australia is a big land with many resources so I expect to see an increasing trend for people to migrate here. Australia has no option but to work out a plan to manage large-scale migration, particularly from Asia. 10 million Chinese are expected to migrate to Australia over the next 15 years. If you add this to the expected millions of migrants from India, SE Asia and the Middle East I think we could be seeing at least 20 million migrants entering the country over the next decade.

Maybe the French will show us a solution in the coming months?

Thanks to Tony Abbott, Australia has the answer. Mr. Opinion's wild statement that the situation is beyond the control of goverments is clearly nonsense. Abbott tried to show Europe the way, and received sneers from his usual detractors of the Left. Europe has not taken notice to date; and they are not likely to. Stiff cheese! It's their problem.

In this unsettled period of the world, it takes strong government to solve problems. In the matter of illegal invasion in our country, Abbott provided that strong government. In Europe, government has lurched so far to the Left that they are lying down. The result is plain to see, with thousands of illegal invaders still turning up today. The 'answer' is a plain as the nose on your face, Crackpot: you just don't want to see it.

What Australians must now ensure is that the Leftists Turnbull and Bishop don't follow weak foreign governments down the road to ruin and smash Abbott's good work, and our country and culture.

How we will rue the day that we allowed the regressives to impose chaos on the Western world. The Abbott haters again with egg all over their face. NO wonder they hated him so much. Has abc mentioned the word Islam yet or is the Salvation army a suspect?

"Has abc mentioned the word Islam yet or is the Salvation army a suspect?"

Come on runner...this has got nothing to do with Islam </sarc> :)

Every major world leader will tell you that in the next few days and they wouldn't lie to us, would they?

Dear ttbn,

'our country and culture'? Have you been hiding under a rock for the past three decades?

Australia's politicians and business leaders have been selling us off to China since Bob Hawke came to power. You don't have a country any more, it belongs to China. And as far as your culture goes all I can say is 'How's your Mandarin?'.

Welcome to the era of Sino-Australia. So I say let China worry about the refugee problem. It's their country now.

Can there be any other solution than removing the source of the
bombers. This mornings news of the events in Paris show what happens
when a country becomes moslem.
Paris is looking just like Baghdad. This is what moslems do and there
is no way anyone can contradict that.

Moslems are bombers and killers. Why should we have to try and sort
out which will be the bombers.
Just get rid of the lot.

How long before we face a bombing like the ones in Paris ?
Why wait ?

"Has abc mentioned the word Islam yet or is the Salvation army a suspect?"

Haven't looked at the ABC.

London to a brick though that 'their' ABC would have an apologist going full steam.

What are the odds on the likelihood that even before the blood dries Turnbull will be announcing more economic migrants for the exasperated Oz taxpayer to support?

Yes the ABC apologist has been saying we and the moderates need to
unite against the terrorists.

Not a word about how you tell one from the other.
Do we have to to have 200 dead at the Opera House before we act ?

The free and democratic Western Nation has imported the violence of the Arab Muslim Middle East. Non Muslim Arabs are not killing in the name of their religion. Terrorist violence is the nature of the Muslim mind, it has been happening for thousands of years, it works on the principle of "might is right". Tribes have been fighting each other for ever for superiority.

Before 'we' act Bazz?
Who is 'we'?
Exactly how would you suggest Australia should act in a world where millions of refugees and asylum seekers are on the move?

I would imagine you and the rest of the Ku Klux Klan members would stand side by side around Australia's borders and shoot all the families trying to get in?
I can just see it now.
You guys are all talk......

suze, step one is close all the mosques (sorry for spelling)

step two is to ban Islam from our nation and if you are caught you AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY are deported.
Step three, actually,step one, STOP IMPORTING MUSLIMS.

I really cant believe we as a nation are so stupid as to continue allowing these people in despite the trouble their faith causes globally.

I keep seeing people referring to Australia as a 'nation'. I assume you are meaning Anglo-Australian nation.

You seem to be taking an awfully long time to wake up to the fact that the Anglo-Australian nation is being replaced by the Sino-Australian nation. When are you going to wake up to the fact that you and your descendants have been sold out to China by Australia's politicians and business leaders since Hawke came to power.

And here you all are squabbling about a handful of refugees coming into the country when about 10 million Chinese will be migrating here over the next decade. And you know what they are like: they are like the Asian Myna bird. They move into an area and chase every other bird out of it.

Whoa, extremists at ten paces.

Suse imagines that anyone who doesn't agree with her on illegal immigrants is a KKK wanna-be who's itching to shot an Arabic family or two.
rehctub wants to deport anyone, together with their family, who holds a particular religious view. I wonder if family members not holding that religious view get booted based on DNA alone.

We already know how to stop people from coming here illegally. Done.

We now just have to steal ourselves to stopping people whose belief systems cannot and will not adhere to those values that make Australia Australia from coming legally. So yes, those who are of the Islamic faith shouldn't be accepted. Middle-Eastern Christian refugees, welcome. Yazidi, welcome. Islamic refugees, not welcome. Spend our entire foreign aid budget (if that's your want) on making them safe and feed and 'secure'. But safe and feed and secure 'over there'. Not over here.

Multiculturalism is problematic at the best of times. But when one of those cultures is exclusivist, supremacist and determined to not accept integration then it can't work and the bodies and debris in Paris is just more evidence of that.

But deporting those here - nup. We made a terrible mistake in taking them, but they're here, they're (often) citizens and they're our problem. So they stay and receive the full benefits of being in and of Australia. But no to bringing out their families, and no to adding to their numbers. They can maintain and practice their religion and mores. But no longer will we offer unique and special dispensation to their (concocted?) sensibilities.

And hopefully, over time their numbers wither and the terrible mistakes of the last 30 years will be rectified.

I don't see a big problem to bring more refugees to this country. They do nothing wrong it's the bad terrorests in France who do all the bad things not the poor sufering refugees. The Suseonnline is right there are lots of women and children who escape the Syrin war who need our help and they are not the bad ones like the terrorists in France who do all the killings.

The Pm Malcolm Turnbull is right to increase the number of people from Sryin from 12000 to 30000 after all we have lots of room here in Australia to put people and plenty of money to help them all out for awhile. Suseonnline is right to suggest more to come here with there familys.

Don't be silly Suze.
We are talking about survival here, not being nice to the neighbours.
We can immieadiatly deport all those not naturalised.
Then after legal advice then deport all those who swore the oath of
allegiance on the Koran.
Then start looking for reasons to deport the rest.
Make the rest swear an more stringent oath on the Bible or affirmation.

Look for any excuse.

"So they stay and receive the full benefits of being in and of Australia. But no to bringing out their families, and no to adding to their numbers...."

Compulsory Pill or sterilization?

Misanthrope; they are the same people here.
They come from moslem families just like the ones here.
The only badge they wear is a beard.
We have no way of sorting them out and the "moderate" moslems many
of whom know which are the most likely terrorists will not dob them in.

So why should we have to go to all the virtually impossible trouble to
try and work out which is which.
Even if we tried we would probably make 50% mistakes and many
Australians will die.

It is what they do. They do it to their own towns and cities so why
should we expect them to be different here ?
No one has suggested a real alternative to deportation.
Frankly, I do not think there is an alternative.

Time to start getting really worried again folks.

The Cheshire Cat grinning slime ball Turnbull has announced his intention to "get the relationship with Indonesia back on track". This is obviously code for letting their people smuggling industry get back up & running.

Just as Obama is a disaster for the US, Turnbull is totally bad news for the ordinary Ozzie, but we peasants appear to have become too dumb to realise what these people are doing to us.

Just how long is it going to take the average voter to wake up to this bloke, & his plans to do us down?

It is about time that people accept that we are at war.
In wartime it is custom to repatriate via the Red Cross civilians
of the enemy country or alternatively place them in internment camps.
We did that during the last war with Japanese, Germans and Italians.

It can easily be made legal by declaring war on Iraq, Syria, Somalia and ISIS.

End of Problem !

Don't be silly Bazz.
Who is threatening your survival here in Australia?

I know several people from England, New Zealand and South Africa who are not 'naturalised' but are living here in Australia.
Do we deport all those people too, or is it just people with the Muslim faith?
If they are Muslims but were born in Australia, then that is ok?

I don't believe in bibles anymore than I do the koran, so maybe I might ask for all those immigrants who swore an oath of allegiance to Australia on the bible should be deported.
I am just wondering how all those 'suitable' Muslims and others you deem could remain in your Australia would feel about all the others being deported?
You don't think that would cause a spot of unrest here, in an otherwise fairly peaceful multicultural country compared to almost everywhere else?

It is way too late to do anything about the multicultural, multi-religious society Australia has become, other than try to work at increasing more of a secular -based country where we are less likely to hear cries of 'God is good!' just before they shoot people dead in the streets in the name of some mad imagined invisible being...

Suzie, what do you mean who is threatening us ?
You mean you do not know ?

Yes I would deport the moslems, they have made the threats and have
made a few half hearted attempts, but Mrs Wang would disagree with you.
Yes those that swore on the Koran because it has a clause allowing to
lie to to infidels if it advantages moslems.
So an oath sworn on the Koran cannot be accepted.

Born in Australia, make them swear the oath on the Bible or affirmation. More difficult I agree but Islam could be declared an
illegal organisation because it does not recognise the government of
Australia.
That is why they will not stand up in court for the Judge.

Well I hope you remember all that while you are looking down the barrel.

I don't know about you Bazz, but no one has threatened me or anyone else I know.
I think you are being a bit paranoid in thinking ALL Muslims are threats to you though.
Paranoia is a difficult problem to treat...

' I don't know about you Bazz, but no one has threatened me or anyone else I know'

I suspect the same comment could of been made by 150 French people yesterday. Typical feminist response. Has not affected me yet. Why should we be surprised. So predictable.

Suseonline is blind to any form of reality as she sits in her comfortable surroundings oblivious to the reality of a world of passionate ideas. Wake up! 400 French: citizens of a free society were murdered and butchered by indoctrinated Muslims.

She has not no ideas nor studied the Koran and does not know the message that passionate Muslims believe. Nor has she studied the Christian gospels and know what passionate Christians believe. That is why she will not take an oath. She supports Muslim immigration and the conflict it brings. She believes in a "great big melting pot" of ideas will solve the worlds problems. The reality is - France is that great big melting pot of ideas.

Muslim world view challenges her current freedoms, and if they were in her company would remove her hear. Unfortunately she does not care for the people suffering in our world.

"Compulsory Pill or sterilization?"

Yes Mise, I was clearly advocating forced sterilisations!! Dill

Some smart-arses just can't help displaying their smart-arse-ocity.

Oh dear me Josephus, I don't think your Christian pals would support you displaying a pretence in being able to understand what I think....ESP? Isn't that the work of the devil playing with your mind?

You have NO idea what I have or haven't read or think.
Certainly, I am fairly sure the only thing you have ever read is the bible.
Ever read the parable of the Good Samaritan?
You have obviously decided to selectively ignore that part of the bible haven't you?

I guess the question is, do we remain reactive, and wait until we get all but over run by these grubs, or, do we take a pro active response and put laws in place to rid our nation of this.

I would also remind the likes of Suze, that all i wish for is to do what i can to provide my grand children with the same peace loving Australia that i was fortunate enough to grow up in, and while i realize that Muslims have taken this from us, 911, Bali bombings, London bombings, now Paris, not to mention our own recent localized terrorist events.

At what point do we come to the realization that we are in fact loosing the battle.

Suzie, get real the ISIS particularly made a threat to kill Australians.
What is the matter with you ?
Have you forgotten the 88 Australians killed in Bali ?

You won't know if it will be you unless you happen to be where the
bomb goes off. What makes you think you are immune ?
Make no mistake you HAVE been threatened.

Some people have the job to go around picking up body parts.
A hand and half an arm here, a head there and someone with their
chest blown open.
The police have to go and tell nearly two hundred families the bad news.
And you have the hide to make light of it all saying I have not been threatened.
Everyone one of us have been threatened. Je Suis Paris !

Paranoid am I ? Well if you are not paranoid you do not have a clue
as to what is going on !
People like you make me sick !

Now that I have got that off my chest, there is one tactic that may
have some effect.

Make it well broadcast that any terrorist who is killed by police or
who blows him/herself up will be buried with a pig.

I am not trying to funny here I am serious. If that was done they
would not go to paradise so they believe, and may well put them off.

Of course it is silly to our perspective, but then that is their religion.

Oh for goodness sakes Bazz, get a grip!
Get yourself a bucket man.

The Australian 'terrorists' we have had here were one loony old man and one 15year old boy. Comparing what they did with what has happened in Paris is just stupid. The Bali bombings were carried out by Indonesian terrorists, not ISIS.
I was in Ireland during some much worse times and was much more afraid there.

Our Australian legal and defence forces seem to be dealing with any other problems that might spring up here, and we are living in a very successful multicultural country, unlike many of the far more intolerant European countries.

Just think of Germany in World War II, and the many millions they killed because they didn't like their religion or culture? Many of those Germans were white Christians.
How is this current crisis any different to that?

Rehctub, I will never take you seriously until you know the difference between the words
lose and loose...

No Suze, you have forgotten the dozens that call Australia home but have left to fight with ISIS.

Bazz, i submitted a thread a few years back suggesting pigs blood be used to paint the bodies of dead terrorists but it was rejected.

I have also suggested we set up pig processing plants on the likes of Christmas Island as this would in my view be a huge deterrent.

At the end of the day something must be done to at least reduce the Muslim movement if we cant ban them and allowing tens of thousands more in, which is what Turnbul has done is just bizarre and may well cost him the next election.

Sadly Aussies are traditionally 're active', but once these strikes start to occur more frequently here, which is more likely than not, they will start to take more notice.

I for one do not think you are paranoid as this is a huge festering problem and one which our current leader appears oblivious to and i fear people are going to start taking matters into their own hands and who knows what that could lead to.

Forget the pig's blood because that won't work; anything done by an enemy to the body of one of the Faithful after death has no bearing on that person entering Paradise.
It is the will of Allah that the Faithful be rewarded with Paradise and no enemy of Allah can thwart his will.

Suse,

The incidents at Martin Place and Parramatta can be compared to Paris, the main difference is only one of scale.
The fool at Parramatta was stopped by men with guns who were there and reacted appropriately.
No one with a gun was at the various attacks in Paris except the terrorists, particularly at the concert where, we are told, the terrorists calmly reloaded their weapons to continue the slaughter.

There is nothing to stop the same thing happening here, do you think that our security is really better or more professional than they have in France?

Didn't know that you were in Northern Ireland; what part?

Regressives are more interested in sides than commonsense. How ironic that at leat one of the Paris murderers was a refugee (and of course all muslims). The regressives got more fun out of mocking Abbot who had warned Merkel and other fools of the danger. The Greens/Rudd/Gillard and followers should be hanging their heads in shame. Instead they will arrogantly demonise those who have been proven right again. They can't handle truth. Susie is one of the best examples of this. Thank you Mr Abbott for stopping the boats.

Is Mise, I was in The Republic of Ireland.
Wild horses wouldn't have dragged me up to Northern Ireland at the time, where they shot you if they thought you were a Catholic entering a Protestant pub. Once that shooting was accomplished then the Catholics rushed out and shot or bombed a Protestant or two in reprisal, and so it went on.

There was all sorts of IRA troubles where we lived, with the guards shooting a couple of terrorists in the village, and armed soldiers standing on all corners. Awful.

Are you suggesting that at a big concert like the one in Paris that the organisers should have let in everyone carrying guns, just in case terrorists attacked them? What about loony toons who mightn't like someone standing up in front of them......bang bang!
It wasn't America you know.
Less guns is the answer, not more....

Suse,

What I, and a lot of others, are suggesting is that there should be armed, trained, individuals who are not uniformed etc., but who may react when something like this happens.
Such people could be ex-police, ex-service (army etc.,) and people selected from that well trained group IPSC.

As you probably wouldn't be familiar with IPSC, here's a video of Australia's best (at the time/might still be).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIowLTHCjPs

Is Mise, do you really think anyone returning fire at a big event like the concert in Paris would be able to safely return fire without hitting innocent people, even if these security guards were able to get to the hotspots quick enough in such a crowd?

Would these security guards be armed with pump action rifles etc that the terrorists had? If so, how would the guards hide this fact?

Sadly, I think that if someone wants to be a terrorist and cause mass deaths, there is not much anyone else can do about it if the terrorism is well planned.
Think of all the deaths by guns in schools in America. Even though Americans are apparently all armed with guns, these schools still lose many students before the shooter usually shoots himself dead.
If they can't deal with random mass shootings in a trigger-happy place like the US, what chance have people in other countries got?

Suseonline, "Think of all the deaths by guns in [gun free zone] schools in America"

There, I fixed that for you. The opposite of what you said, as usual.

There is so much more that it would be wasting time with the mantras of a hoplophobe such as yourself. Left to you there would be no resistance to murderous terrorists, because you would invent some wild rationalisation to suit your prejudice.

There is an argument for Australian police to be permitted and encouraged to voluntarily retain and concealed-carry their service pistol along with official ID when off-duty.

Fact is, offenders carry theirs.

Suse,

I wasn't talking about security guards but about well trained civilians armed with their personal choice of pistols.
Despite what you may have read in the media or have seen on TV, a good pistol shot can hit man sized targets in vital areas at 100 metres.

Such civilians might be within a few yards of a terrorist when he/she first raises a weapon.

Here's another video, this time of a Cowboy Action shooter.
He is of course using guns that are exactly the same as guns that were in use well over 100 years ago so today's terrorists would have an advantage (!!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw

Is Mise,

Trust you to confront Suseonline with two of her extreme phobias, legal firearms and white men.

If you could have added a Christian priest that would have been the Big Three and 'KABOOM', Suseonline explodes.

Is Mise there is already a precedent for armed persons in civies just
being in with the possible victims.
Air Marshalls on aircraft. Most have probably forgotten that when we
fly there might be one the aircraft with us.

That we have to even be discussing a subject like this says it all.
I did read one encouraging item recently.
In Germany a number of Syrian moslems are going to churches and
inquiring about converting to Christianity.
Seems a bit odd to me, if you were unhappy with your deity why would
you look for another one ?
Perhaps they think the particular book was written by terrorists.

Rehctub said;
I for one do not think you are paranoid

Well I am paranoid about this subject.
Anyone who is not paranoid does not understand what is going on.
I can mix my two concerns here, what happens with these people here
when the BIG crash comes ? I suspect that they will be totally unable
to cope. Their poor IQ levels will make it very difficult to obtain
work in competition with the rest of the population.
Unemployment benefits will inevitably decline making things worse.

Arm citizens, Is Mise? Like you?
As if...

Bazz, I feel sorry for people like you who are so terrified to just get on and live life right now, rather than being paranoid about the future all the time.
Terrorists love people who are frightened of them...it feeds their hatred.

All you good ol' boys should just leave the protection of Australia to the experts.
They have done a pretty good job so far.

"All you good ol' boys should just leave the protection of Australia to the experts.
They have done a pretty good job so far."

Yeah, what she said!

For example one of the reasons the experts have been doing such a bang up job (well so long as you ignore Endeavour Hills, Martin Place and Parramatta) is that they have managed to stop all illegal boat arrivals. And Suse, in her anxiety to delegate all decision making to others, is, I'm sure, perfectly OK with that.

They've also passed legislation to give the authorities access to everyone's metadata, and again Suse will be A-OK with that.

Suse,

I already have access to firearms, rifles and shotguns and I'm in the local pistol club as well.
Despite my age I'm still very proficient with arms and last range day in the rapid fire event I managed to fire 12 scoring hits on the target at 50 metres; done with a single shot rifle and despite one mis-fed round that cost me a few seconds, reckon that I would have got my usual 15 away in the minute allowed.

Once upon a time I used to give fast draw demos, I'd hold my right arm out straight in front at shoulder height, a match box on the back of my hand, draw my pistol and hit the box back up into the air with the barrel.

I was not really fast but it looked good.

Arvo Ojala, who taught Hollywood actors to handle pistols, had a neat party trick; he'd stand about 15 feet from an upright plank, hold a knife above his head in his right hand, throw the knife with a downward sweep of his arm, continue the downward movement, draw his 1873 Colt and fire at the plank and the knife would strike in the bullet hole.

Now that's fast.

So yeah, blokes like me when I was younger.

Mhaze, of course I am happy the boats have stopped, as it means no one else will drown, however we don't really know that has actually happened because of secret government men's business.
But you seem to have me all worked out, so I don't really need to say anything at all do I?

Is Mise, I don't care how good you are with guns. That is not the point.
The point is that vigilantism went out with the Ku klux klan.

If none of your gun-ho 'armed citizens' (armed with their weapon of choice of course) are dressed in uniform or easily recognized, how will all these trigger-happy fellows know who is the terrorist? It would all end up as a free for all, with even more innocent people dying.
If this sort of thing worked, why haven't they gone with it in the US, with all their gun crimes?

Suse,

We're t not talking about vigilantes but about trained personnel licenced by the Government.
In plain clothes and if armed people in plain clothes are a problem for you then I hope that you don't worry about the Police detectives.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times the mass shootings in the US occur in "Gun Free Zones" where the law abiding don't carry their guns.

There have been no mass shootings at schools where the staff may be armed but the media never mentions that, nor the occasions when armed teachers have nipped trouble in the bud.

Do you remember reading about the off duty US policewoman who shot a gunman in church?

"But you seem to have me all worked out"

Yes I thought as much. But its not that hard. There are so many like you. A preference for the warm inner glow over facing up to the real world.

Whose 'real world' Mhaze? Yours?
Sorry, I refuse to let some disgusting terrorists rule my world.
But you go right ahead.

Is Mise, ask yourself WHY there aren't armed guards, plainclothes or otherwise, in those US schools then? Could it be that more guns are not the answer, even in a gunloving place like US?

Suse,

You miss the point, in the US schools where there are armed and willing teaching and other staff there are no shootings only places where there are shootings is where it's advertized that they have no means of protecting themselves and more US schools are allowing teachers to be armed if they so desire.

Which school has more chance of resisting attack, the armed or the unarmed?

Bye the bye the KKK were not vigilantes but a white supremacist terrorist organization.
Moreover they had secret handshakes and secret passwords, such as 'Ayak' (Are you a klansman) and the response 'Akai' (A klansman am I).

Amusing, if it hadn't been for the evil that they did.

If that were really the case then why aren't they all armed Is Mise?
I looked it up, and I can now see why.

The main reason appears to be an economic one.
How many security guards, hidden or not, would it take to protect some of those huge US schools of thousands, and over a huge area? It would be almost impossible.

In any case, the school killers have mostly been home-grown white boys who were mentally ill or just plain evil, so not asylum seekers or refugees.

Suse,

You brought up the 'off topic' of US schools.

......The point is that vigilantism went out with the Ku klux klan.

Not for long Suze, especially if our governments don't act in the best interest of its people and stop getting sucked in by the media.

You see the media generally use pictures of beautiful innocent children when airing a story about refugees while totally ignoring the fact that 99.9% of children are just that, innocent.

As long as they have unrestricted access to the preaching of hatred, making them hate anyone who dare not follow their extreme views you are always headed for trouble.

Two main ingredients for making an extremist terrorist are a Muslim, and a protected environment at which to practice extremism. We allow such conditions in Australia.

In my opinion Malcolm Turnbul has just signed his political death warrant but continuing with the intake of 12,000 Syrian refugees,mostly Muslims i suspect.

In the best interests of what people Rehctub?
People like you?

Most Australians know that it is only a small number of radicalized Muslims who take it to the next step of terrorism. So why penalize all Muslims?

If good ol' Tones was still thrown out after gallantly 'stopping the boats' I think Malcolm is fairly safe at this stage. The parliament looks positively jovial and relaxed now, like I haven't seen them for a long time.
I think Tony had them all uptight and wondering just what embarrassing comment he would make next....like the Knighted Prince Phillip debacle.

I would suggest we needn't worry about the Syrian refugees hiding terrorists amongst them, as I think they will mainly consist of ethnic minorities who were treated badly by the more radical Muslim groups in Syria.
Isn't that what Dutton said?
Not that I take much notice of him...

There is no answer.
In Europe the politicians have set up Europe for a civil war.
From memory Winston Churchill forecast a war between Islam and the
rest of the world.

There has already been a turnaround in sympathy in Europe.
I suggest you watch the video linked below.
Note the rave by the "immigrant" on the train on the way to Germany.
It is at 09:40 on the video.

http://tinyurl.com/q44bt4b

If the German & French people rise up in revolt it will turn into a
civil war on a greater scale than Syria.
I just do not understand why politicians are so stupid.
Is the brainwashing of political correctness been that effectiv

The hatred of Israel and the hatred of Christ has given the regressives exactly what they have sown. But don't forget gw is the biggest moral challenge of the century. The more arts and pseudo science degrees we have pumped out the dumber the society has become. The most educated can't see past their dogma mainly due to the fact they are to stubborn to see their narrative has collapsed before there eyes. Thankfully God has not been caught by surprised. Anyone with half a brain would humble themselves and receive forgiveness from Christ and seek truth instead of the fables pushed out by the regressives who have been used as tools/fools to bring about this situation.

Runner, give it a rest!
This thread isn't about your imaginary god.
Most of the asylum seekers don't believe in your god, they have their own made up one.
People made this refugee problem, and it is people who must solve it.

Suse,

Runner made one reference to God and two to Christ, as Runner apparently considers Christ to be God, do you include Christ in the imaginary category?

//do you include Christ in the imaginary category?//

Most Christians do. Historically, non-trinitarian beliefs were suppressed as heretical; these days unitarianism is more acceptable but not as common as trinitarianism.

'People made this refugee problem, and it is people who must solve it.'

yep Susie people who have ignorant views like yourself.

Toni,

"Most Christians do. Historically, non-trinitarian beliefs were suppressed as heretical; these days unitarianism is more acceptable but not as common as trinitarianism"

Most Christians regard Christ as both an historical human person and as God, therefore they do not consider Him to be imaginary.

Did you compose the above in a hurry?

//do you include Christ in the imaginary category?//

//Most Christians regard Christ as both an historical human person and as God//

Anybody who thinks Christ is God is putting him in the imaginary category. People who believe in the historical existence of Jesus of Nazareth but don't regard him as divine - e.g. some unitarians - aren't putting him into the imaginary category.

Is Mise, Christians regarding Jesus as a god doesn't make him one.
It is all just human 'beliefs'.

They also believe he was born of a virgin (to a married woman who apparently never consummated her marriage?), died on a cross but yet 'rose again', and can now be eaten in the form of a wafer of bread...