By chance I was given a current copy of the 'Australian Shooter' magazine, dedicated to those people who pursue shooting as a sport.

I've never been opposed to permitting 'fit and proper persons' from participating in lawful hunting or target shooting in 'all' it's forms. Neither do I see any practical advantage in adopting even more restrictive impediments to already heavily regulated licensed shooters, who've been 'put through the wringer' by police when they originally apply for a F/A licence.

However while browsing through this magazine I was amazed at the number of firearms advertised, that could only be described as being para-military ? Many were carbine styled with inordinately short barrels, pistol grips, muzzle breaks some even offered with 'light amplification scopes' not unlike the legendary 'Litton' which we used on the FBI Snipers school! This one on offer, was the 'ATN X-Sight' night vision scope @ circa $1300 !

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not ill-disposed to any of the above configurations, modifications or sighting systems, other than we seem to be drifting towards weaponry of a kind, which can only be described as being para-military. And I simply ask why ? Once this sort of Kit was only within the sole preserve of the military and police ?

There was one distinct type that was banned in NSW some years ago. It's now re-emerged as a Czech mfg'd. 'Alfa-Proj' revolving carbine offered in either .22 or .357 magnum. Fitted with either a 12 inch or 20 inch barrel. Previously a similar version was mfg'd by a South American company Rossi or Boito ? It was prohibited because of the apparent ease the weapon could be re-configured into a revolver, simply by shortening the barrel and removing the stock with a hacksaw.

As an ex copper, I would not like to see this particular F/A being made available again for the same reasons that existed in NSW. We already have a vigorous trade of illegal F/A's, thanks to the many Bikie Gangs, without adding another possible choice to the menu, in the illicit F/A's market !

They are not 'military style', 'sniper' or 'assault' weapons just because there is a lot of plastic, a thumbhole stock or a Picatinny rail with silly things like lights handing off it.

A Toyota Corolla can be decked out to look like the Batmobile too, but it sure doesn't fly like one.

There is a shipload of hysteria about. A recent report in the media FROM A POLICE SOURCE concerned a 'cache' of 'high powered assault rifles'. However from the photo it could easily be seen that there was an airgun and 'Airsoft' toys that shoot harmless plastic pellets.

The public need to be switching on their BS detectors and at the same time wondering why there are shadowy figures -like that US billionaire currency dealer who nearly sent the Bank of England broke and was found guilty of a trading offence in France- interfering in the domestic politics of other countries, including Australia.

In closing, it is the person we should be looking at not the tool.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

A somewhat facile rejoinder to a rather serious matter I would've thought ? Furthermore your analogy of an abundance of plastic and thumb hole stocks, together with a Picatinny Rail fitted with 'light things hanging off it' is all rather imaginative too I believe. Nevertheless ONTHEBEACH, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Accordingly, I thank you for your comment.

Hi O Sung Wu, I totally agree with you that we don't need those sort of paramilitary guns for non-military people in Australia, and those sort of magazines promoting mindless morons posing with big guns should be banned for sale.

As a former police officer, I certainly value your views on this sort of weaponry rather than the mindless morons who think they know all about it, but really it is just all about the killing and 'big-man-with-big-gun' mentality.
You know what they say about civilian men who feel the need to carry big guns.......

o sung wu,

Thank you for your civil reply. You will always get a frank and straightforward reply from me.

There are no assault weapons available to the licensed public. Check and you will find they are bolt action, single shot. A lever action, as in the models that continue from the 1860's are single shot too, rifle or shotgun. Nothing interesting there, unless of course someone can point to a flood of crime involving such agricultural pieces. There is no such crime wave.

The violent crime stats are as usual dominated by certain middle eastern criminal and bikie drug gangs using knives, blunt weapons and illegal modern 'gangsta' type pistols they smuggle in new in crates through Australia's porous borders. These people are imports who brought with them to Australia their cultural traditions of resolving even minor disagreements with weapons. Ban them!

ATM, 'gun control' - the goal of which is confiscations and bans affecting law-abiding licensed citizens and does NOT affect criminals, is yet another of the political diversions (along with gay marriage and republic) of the Greens protest party and other flakey types. But most regrettably including a wealthy, secret squirrel overseas billionaire who is alleged to provide seed money and support to serial activists to carry out demonstrations in the US and western democracies. Figure that one out.

Honestly, it is ludicrous to suggest that Australians could be 'arming themselves by stealth' given the mountain of bureaucratic paperwork and time-wasting busywork for police that lawful licensed ownership must comply with.

Worry no more and have a cold one :)

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

OTB - it's not the 'cyclic rate of fire' that concerns me, rather it's the various weapons, and the way they're now designed and configured - why is there a need for a muzzle break ? I previously owned a Ruger No 1 'Tropical' SS in .458W magnum, a veritable elephant ctg that was designed to accommodate 'the big four'. I regularly fired a 10 + 10 50yard stalking programme most Sundays. This rifle delivered a relative recoil factor of, circa 4.30. Whereas your old dependable .303 British service rifle, delivered a RRF of only circa, 1.9 ! Yet 'Savage Arms' are promoting their heavier calibres in .308 (7.62nato) all with muzzle breaks, why ?

Sure the old .458W magnum gave you a pretty tender shoulder after a Sunday comp, but a bloody muzzle break ? No Big Game Hunter would be seen dead with such a piece !

I'll tell you why my good friend, it's a great marketing tool, short barrels, camo stocks, carbine configuration, and all with a muzzle break ! Makes 'em all look much more military in their design, and intended use !

You and I both know it's all a crock of nonsense, these rifles and similar, are introduced into the market place, to appeal to those 'wannabes' who like the notion of having a 'LEGAL' assault 'styled' piece - just another example of these wannabe's ballistic masturbation is all ! No doubt, these clowns are legitimate, licensed shooters, but you well know OTB, just because they can produce a piece of paper saying they're legal, doesn't necessarily indicate they're endowed with much common sense !

Mate, I could go on for ages on this specific issue, but I'd be just ventilating 'hot air' for no useful purpose.

In conclusion OTB thank you again, for your unabridged candour, I wouldn't wish it any other way, you know that ol' man !

Hi there SUSEONLINE...

Sorry for my delay in responding to your contribution, anyway here it is for better or worse - ? I totally support shooting as a sport and for legal hunting (I've never hunted personally, and never intend to). Provided it's properly controlled and all the checks and balances are in place, in order to reduce the incidences of criminal enterprise.

What I am concerned about is the 'types and configuration' some makers of F/A's have employed in recent years. Many medium calibres have now been designed to visually replicate a standard military assault rifle, offering designs that generally are within the exclusive purview of the military or police, why ?

I believe it's a marketing ploy calculated to attract those wannabe's who fancy themselves as SAS styled warriors, to me it's an emerging trend that should be very carefully monitored by the relevant authorities. Many thanks for your contribution.

Suse,

That's an old furphy about men with big guns, one of the reasons that there is little domestic violence in gun owning families is that very satisfied women don't get violent.

Lol Is Mise, where did you hear that domestic violence happens less about in gun owning families? I very much doubt that is true...

Hi there IS MISE...

I would have thought you may have consented to contribute to this 'rerun' of the current F/A issue. With your substantial knowledge of small arms and ballistics, your informed voice would be most welcome indeed, and I'm sure would appreciably 'value add to the debate. While it's true, you and I occasionally have a divergence in some fundamentals, but conceptually, I believe we're most assuredly on the same page.

A very successful anti-gun rally was held in Sydney yesterday, getting extensive media coverage. One of the most poignant moments during the rally was when Mary Cusumano, whose husband Angelo was shot dead, asked a gate crasher from the gun happy brigade if he had every suffered the pain and anguish of having a loved one killed by a gun, the lunatic shut up quick smart!

Why is the gun lobby demanding a new leaver action shotgun, which is capable of firing 5 rounds in 5 seconds, be added to the list of legal firearms in NSW. Why?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/alpha-cheng-to-attend-antigun-rally-20151104-gkr3eb.html

O sung wu,

I agree with most of your observations but these add-ons are harmless
even though most of them are ugly and in a lot of cases are ineffective.
Muzzle brakes do have a legitimate role on sporting and target rifles, because they reduce recoil and muzzle jump they allow the shooter to observe the striking point of the shot through the 'scope sight without the necessity and lost time of re aligning the rifle, this helps greatly in getting away a second shot, if necessary on game and in target shooting it can save one having to use a spotting scope.
Wouldn't help me though as I don't use a 'scope sight.
On those revolving longarms, as they are licenced then the owners are not going to chop them down into pistols, remember that when they were previously banned in NSW there was no licencing.

Paul,
Lever shotguns have been around for about 150 years and 5 shots in 5 seconds isn't fast there is a video around shewing a young bloke firing 5 in 5 from a non-automatic ejector ordinary old double barreled gun. I'll have a go at finding it.

In fact I have a legal gun that can fire at the rate of two shots in a quarter of a second and its sustained rate of fire is much faster than any automatic or repeating shot gun that is in civilian hands in this or most other countries.

So get with the facts, do a bit of research.

I love the euphemisms used by the gun happy brigade, sport for killing is one of their favorites, game for defenseless animals, another, hunting for game in rich well fed western socialites went out with Danial Boone! Is Mise thanks for the update on those high powered destructive guns already in the community, we don't need another one.

Is Mise you might like this one, I got it from David Shoebridge's web site.

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Paul,

As usual you don't address the points raised and I note too, as usual, the Greens use the personal tragedy of a person for their own ends.
What, pray, did the shooting of the lady's husband have to do with the Adler shotgun?

Bye the way, what are the Greens doing about the cheap high powered laser pointers that have already partly (and permanently) damaged one teenager's sight and have the potential to blind?

What if these fall into criminal hands?

I look forward to Sandalplank's pronouncements on this issue.

O sung wu,

I should have noted earlier that "Guns - Are Australians rearming themselves by stealth ?" is misleading because Australians are buying legal arms having already satisfied the legal requirements to do so, so there is no stealth.

The NSW Watermelon Greens have a track record for half-truths, complete fabrications and mischief-making.

Now for some facts, courtesy of The Hon. Troy Wayne GRANT, MP, Dubbo Electorate, who knows what he is talking about,

Grant: "The NSW Government has made it clear...that our problems in relation to crime is not registered firearms. It is illegal firearms, illegal guns issue that we face in NSW. Greater than 97% of firearms incidence reported in NSW relate to unregistered, or unbranded, or unmarked firearms.

So those people out there, the opportunists, like David Shoebridge from the Greens today, will exaggerate the narrative. Ah, I think he's quoted something like there is 800,000 people in NSW that will have access to these weapons, trying to make a story that is simply untrue. There are not many people that have a licence category that these firearms may go into. That's just an absolute nonsense figure. I'd like him to get him to be honest with the community and tell us where the source of his information is coming from".

So scare tactics by those in this space is very unhelpful. We are working tirelessly across the country to make sure we're targeting where the problem is, and that is illegal guns, and also making sure that the integrity of our NFA remains solid and serves us well into the future.!"
contd..

contd..

Reporter: "(something about the Adler five rounds)...that's allowed in Australia already, do you, do you think there does need to be a review on that because I know the Greens have said what you've just explained, but there are victims that have had relatives die, die from a shooting, and they're even saying they are concerned about that gun being in Australia. What do you say to those victims that are concerned."

Grant: "Victims of firearms crime, as I've just outlined, are victims of illegal guns, of unregistered guns, not ones that you buy from firearms dealers. That is where we need to focus our energies. Absolutely we need to ensure our regime and our national firearms partnership remains strong, and has integrity, and we'll continue to do that, but as Justice Keenan, as Minister Keenan said...that our law enforcement bodies have all the support they need, to track down those illegal guns that are providing the safety risk to our community, not the ones you buy over a counter."

Also worth repeating, that ATM, 'gun control' - the goal of which is confiscations and bans affecting law-abiding licensed citizens and does NOT affect criminals, is yet another of the political diversions (along with gay marriage and republic) of the Greens protest party and other flakey types. But most regrettably including a wealthy, secret squirrel overseas billionaire who is alleged to provide seed money and support to serial leftist and anarchist activists to carry out demonstrations in the US and western democracies. Figure that one out.

Paul and all your mates,

You might like to look at this; I know that it contains facts and facts
are uncomfortable and not very Green, but all the same:

"

What is a ‘lever action’ firearm?

A lever action firearm uses a lever located around the trigger guard area of a firearm to load cartridges into the chamber of the barrel. Each actioning of the lever requires the operator’s finger to be removed from the trigger.

Is lever action technology new?

No. Lever action technology was invented in the 1860s, making it over 150 years old.

Is this type of firearm new to Australia?

No. Lever action shotguns have been available in Australia since 1887
including models with more than 7 round capacity. In 1996, lever action firearms were classified as ‘Category A’ and there have been no safety issues with them.

What makes the Adler different to the lever action shotguns already in Australia?

The only differences are cosmetic. The Adler simply has a more modern and ergonomic design relative to other models of lever action shotgun and a lighter weight alloy receiver.

Does the Adler have any new technology?

Firearms experts from the Australian Federal Government have confirmed
there is no new technology in the firearm and that it operates in the same manner and same speed as all other lever action shotguns.

Is the Adler a ‘rapid fire’ gun?

The Commonwealth Attorney-General’s Department have stated that the
term ‘rapid fire’ is “problematic as there is no technical definition for this term” and suggest that firearms should be classified based on whether they are semi-automatic or fully automatic.

Is the Adler semi-automatic or fully automatic?
No."
http://ssaa.org.au/assets/news-resources/politics/Adler-A110-lever-action-shotgun-fact-sheet.pdf

Suse,

"Lol Is Mise, where did you hear that domestic violence happens less about in gun owning families? I very much doubt that is true..."

If it were not true then there would be far less Licenced Firearms Owners and the Greens would be trumpeting the fact as would the media in general.
I know that these are negative proofs but... and from where did you get your assertion?
Licenced firearm owners are of good character and they have the Police Commissioner's stated approval to prove it and one of the things that he must take into consideration is domestic violence; any DV and no licence..

Hi there IS MISE...

Thanks for 'jumping in' on this Topic, I always value your contribution whether we agree or not. Of course you're quite correct apropos modifying the 'revolving' long arms, most illegal modifications were undertaken before the licensing protocols were introduced post Port Arthur.

I can see a legitimate case made out for muzzle breaks, on some heavier centre fire rifles, though for the mid range sporting calibres, hardly necessary I would've thought ? And true, the various 'add ons' are scarcely sinister and are by no means indicative of the impending militarization of sporting F/A's ?

What does worry me IS MISE, there seems to be a subtle change in the overall 'character' of sporting/hunting F/A's ? Back in the early sixties, I purchased a beautiful 2nd hand, Sako Forester in .222mag, it cost me a veritable packet even back then, I was only on Army pay. Point is, it had deeply darkened, oiled European furniture, and a bright blued barrel. And I religiously maintained it to preserve it's original pristine condition.

Today, many of the well known European and American manufacturers, are marketing a category of sporting arms that appear more like some ersatz or pseudo assault style weapon, then a sporting piece. Ever shorter barrels, matt black, bi-pods, full pistol grips, and all manner of other 'bibs 'n bobs' ! - true in themselves harmless, still....? You understand what it is I'm trying to say, though somewhat inadequately I'm afraid IS MISE ? Thank you for your contribution.

O sung wu,

The various cosmetic adds-on are no more than a manifestation of a desire to have something like today's soldiers have, even if only in appearance.
Fifty years down the line there will be re-enactors dressing up like today's soldiers just as we have re-enactors doing WWII, WWI, the Boer War, the Civil war, the Crimea and earlier conflicts and periods; noteably the First Fleet in NSW.

The current crop of combat weapon look alikes are called 'Tactical' by their devotees but 'Craptical' by the more conservative shooters.

It's a bit like wearing camoflage clothing to hunt colour blind game animals, fashonable but of no more use than an ordinary shirt.

Hi IS MISE...

I suppose you're right. Your thinking is that of a pragmatist, therefore you see this aspect of shooting more of a 'phase' many younger shooters seem to go through ?

Myself, I have this rather more conflicted view, thinking like an old copper, wondering why the world's leading F/A manufacturers, feel it necessary to configure many of their newer models to resemble that; the next generation of infantry assault weapons ?

You see IS MISE, I suppose 32 + years, of cultivated suspicion, is very hard to shake, especially when there's generally some media reference to the burgeoning illicit firearms market, presented in many of the nightly news bulletins ?

O sung wu,
You certainly know how to open the worm can mate.
I had the recent privilege of returning to Vietnam at the behest of the VA.
They were rebuilding our accommodation and it was cheaper to send us on a three months junket than rehouse and refit us out.
Now remembering just how many guns there were in Vietnam during the conflict and I had at least half a dozen of various calibers, I was absolutely gobsmacked to find, apart from the police,very few guns in the country.
We toured and lived in all parts of the country as guests of the government of Vietnam and it seems the concept of violence has vanished.
Now back here in FNQ I find the communities of the Cape overrun with AR 15s and AK47s in all calibers and makes.
Policing across the Straits is very limited duie to the family reunion passes.
As soon as I can arrange it I, and a lot of my mates, are going to migrate to Vietnam.
I can save $500 a week living there and everything is good and cheap.

The good solid policy of the NSW Greens on firearms, led by David Shoebridge MLC carrying on the excellent work started by Lee Rhiannon, who is now fighting the good fight in the Federal Parliament as a Greens Senator for NSW.

The NSW Greens will continue to campaign for stronger firearms laws, in accordance with the 1996 National Firearms Agreement. The NSW Greens are working towards an end to recreational hunting on public land, ensuring that feral animal control is done effectively, professionally and humanely.
Since 1996 gun laws in NSW have been watered down due to political pressure from the Shooters Party, moving NSW away from the National Firearms agreement and increasing the number of guns and gun owners in NSW. The Greens oppose any increase in the number of firearms within the NSW community.
The Game Council which was created in 2002 to secure the support of the Shooters Party in the NSW Upper House. In mid-2013 the Greens’ decade-long campaign to abolish the Game Council ended in success. Following a damning report into the organisation’s governance, the NSW government announced they would abolish the Game Council and bring its functions relating to feral animal control inside the Department of Primary Industries. The NSW Greens will oppose any moves by vested interests that will lead to a return to the bad old days of a Game Council in NSW.

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Hi there Paul back to spread some more misinformation?
Tell me why did Sandalplank vote for hunting in National Parks and State Forests?

here's a bit of a post on another forum:
"Mary Cusumano, whose husband was shot in an armed robbery in 1995, has my sympathy but if she cops some flack she only has herself to blame; she let the Greens use her and her dead husband for their own purposes.
I suppose that it is unkind to point out, as some are doing, that she and her family make a considerable part of their income from simulated shooting and killing of human beings.

Quote
Mary could send a simple text message to the customers who pre-ordered the latest Call of Duty, but it’s a job she enjoys. So she dials the phone numbers. All of them.unquote
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/09/the-long-way-is-the-short-way-the-30-year-legacy-of-the-gamesmen/
Quote
Finally, the "Number of Corpses" option tells the engine how many dead bodies to keep on the battlefield. Lowering this option can cause bodies to disappear as new bodies are "created" unquote.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2009/01/12/cod_world_at_war_gameplay_performance_iq/3#.Vjw4utIrJkg "
One would think that after one's husband was shot dead that video games about killing people would be a bit much to peddle but it seems not so.

Is Mise, shame on you. That may have well been her husband Angelo's livelihood until a vicious gun crazed murderer seen fit to extinguish his life forever. I am not personally in favor of violent video games, but not only has the woman been denied her loving husband through a violent act of a gun crazy, but some would also deny her a livelihood as well.
Aaron Robinson the animal who murdered Angelo is now a free man, having been paroled in 2011. Unlike the Cusumano family who will never be free.

Some are happy to see others killed to satisfy their selfish indulgence with guns!

Police found a gun on the bus carrying a hard right racists group from 'Reclaim Australia'. Is it the intention of some from the extreme fringe to form, as one poster favors, a 'Citizens Militia' or better still a private gun toting army! it may well be their undisclosed agenda.

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Paul,

Rather a pity that your demo was a fizzer, didn't even seem to get a mention on the ABC.
I think that many would feel that it's a bit ironic that the lady would come out against the Adler, a very ordinary shotgun, when one of the favoured weapons of human destruction in the video games that she sells are fully automatic shotguns.
Sure she has every right to make a living and to sell whatever is legal but when the product that she sells glorifies killing then the least that she ought to do is not lend herself and her murdered husband to the Greens for their agenda against the law abiding.

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

Good to hear from you Brother ! Apart from the the obvious economic advantages, I couldn't envisage living over there again. Twelve months was enough, especially after Malaya. Similar heat, humidity, dust and monsoons, though different comrades in arms, the lamentable ARVN. And of course not forgetting the VC and the NVA, neither were a particularly welcoming group from memory ?

On embarkation we all took our issue SLR's, and about three or four months in, M16's from the yanks. Apart from the weight I preferred the SLR, what you hit, stayed hit ! Apropos a variety of weaponary available, I was always keen to get my mitts on a .45ACP and bring it back home if possible ? Four or five weeks out from repatriation, we were all formerly counselled by 'the Dat's' DAPM warning us of the dire consequences of attempting to bring back any contraband we may've snookered away while there. Apparently Aussie Customs were red hot on blokes bringing back weapons and drugs etc ?

Interestingly, the reverse proved to be the case, and many of the Customs people were very very decent to our lot, and did everything possible to speed up the arrival process at the old Sydney International Terminal. In any event, I didn't want to risk it Chris, as I'd intended re-enlisting at the expiration of my term. I didn't, and look where I ultimately ended up, wearing blue for the next 32 + years ! Providence eh, go figure ?

o sung wu, "Back in the early sixties, I purchased a beautiful 2nd hand, Sako Forester"

Doubtless like the owner before you and other respectable, law-abiding firearms owners you did NOT regard it as a 'weapon'. It was a firearm and a nicely smithed piece of art and practicality too.

Now in view of your criticism of younger licensed owners who obtain and always maintain lawful design and use of their treasured firearm and personalise it a bit with protective paint 'Cerakote' maybe (tropic proofing against corrosion), or a muzzle brake to reduce whiplash from point of aim, what about that raised 'Monte Carlo' cheekpiece on that lovely Forrester of yours?

Heh, heh, might be a case of a pot calling the kettle black there ;)

I will not go on to discuss Sako sights, improved triggers, heavy barrels and so on, lovely examples of the gunsmith's skills and art that they were, and are.

Sorry to gently chide you, o sung wu and I didn't mention did I, that you would have stood out back then with the 'unnecessary', 'over-the-top' Remington magnum version of what was a pleasant, relatively quiet calibre. Remington did develop that improvement for the US military snipers, you know.

Anyhow, just for the professional green left stirrers - of course magnum cartridges of all descriptions have been available since forever and no, that hasn't resulted in any changes to statistics.

Do we really, truly need to bother law-abiding, licensed individuals on trivia? It is their stuff and they are welcome to do what they want with it as long as they stay withing the law, which of course they do or lose their expensive joy and sport.

I say leave certified honest, law-abiding people alone. For goodness sakes release those trained police in weapons branches from the mind-bending busywork and futility of maintaining computer dossiers on ordinary, licensed folk and looking over good people's shoulders. Return the police to chasing the crims. Which is why most police became police in the first place, to protect good people and their possessions.

Let's damn well hope so o sung wu, with fools like Paul & company, intent on disarming all honest citizens, while opening the floodgates to Muslim boat people, we are going to have to defend ourselves sooner or later. They will be armed to the teeth, in bikey gangs with in days of arrival.

We are OK here though. I pulled out my old trusty .177 air rifle the other day, [licenced of course], & it still has almost enough power to blow a BB out of the barrel. I'm sure a good servicing & oiling will have it shooting a few feet within a month.

I haven't had it out in a few years. I've not breed any foals for a while, so didn't need it to discourage the wild dogs. The kids are now at me to bread a few for the grand kids pleasure, & the wild dogs are now worse than ever.

My son & his lady are living in our granny flat for a year or 2, & are developing a veggie patch. That's a big ask around here, with hungry wood ducks & opossums galore. We are working on an old carbide noise gun, of the type used extensively years ago in wheat fields. I'm not sure if an occasional bang will frighten the ducks off, but it's worth a try. I wonder if it is loud enough to scare off intruders?

You're a real bugger aren't you ONTHEBEACH, for 'outing me' as a whinging old hypocrite for berating younger shooters who lawfully pursue their shooting sports quite legally and within the strict parameters of the law ! Mate you've got me there, OK :-) !

To be very honest with you OTB, I was so jolly possessive with my Sako, I was reluctant to even shoot the thing ? With the right weather and topped with the right optics I reckon the rifle would be capable of regularly performing at marginally under MOA all day long without too much trouble ? Finnish barrels were tight. From what I'm led to understand all FBI (operational) Sniper systems were; Remington mod.#700 actions, and all re-barreled with that brilliant Austrian marque -'Ferlach' heavy barrel, fully and semi-floated ?

As you'd mentioned the Remington OTB. The FBI Snipers School I attended in 1986, I was required to qualify using their equipment. Consequently, I was issued with a Remington mod 700, in .308cal (all law enforcement Snipers in that period <circa 1986>, were limited to .308 as a national Law Enforcement standard) As it happened, when I pressed other Snipers about the 'why's and wherefores' of this limitation, most agreed the calibre, and the weapon systems in toto, were more than equal to job requirements ?

OTB you might be surprised to hear, the average distance where a 'tactical' shot is made, is only about 72 yards ! The furthermost distance we were all required to qualify, was only 300 yards ! Please note, the US still referred to precise measurements, in the old imperial terms ? And nearly all tactical/operational situations, involve a hostage. Any similarity there may be, between that of a military sniper, juxtaposed to that of a law enforcement sniper, is purely coincidental.

Mate I could 'babble on' ad nauseam about all this stuff, and you'd be thoroughly bored out of your mind ? Furthermore most people wouldn't believe me anyway, a sad fact but nevertheless true, regrettably ?

Hasbeen you should join Beach'y Citizens Militia as Colonial Hasbeen (Retired) mounted on your mighty steed, you bred yourself. Blunderbuss at the ready to defend little old Aussie from the invading hoards.
What planet are some of you blokes on, better still what sort of weed are you smoking?

Is Mise the anti gun rally got excellent coverage in the mainstream Media. Not the 2% like those crazy 'Two Bobs' from the Shooters and Hooters Party get at election time.

Sorry you continue to attack Mary Cusumano, who despite suffering as she has through the actions of a gun crazy murderer, who you'll be pleased to know is now free on parole, has the courage to stand up and speak out against the gun industry. Just like Alpha Cheng the son of Curtis Chang who was senselessly murdered at the hands of a gun at Parramatta Police Station recently. Do you want to attack him as well?

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

o sung wu,

As always, you model good humour and many thank you for it.

Your Sako would have shot sub-MOA out of the box. Sakos and Tikkas do that. What splendid examples of fine engineering they are and testaments to the discernment of their proud owners.

You may know that there are many ex-service (I often include police, fireys, ambos and others in my broad definition of 'service') such as yourself who have enjoyed the local rifle club for a higher number of years than would be the IQ of some of the serial green left nuisances who post here.

Seriously though, you and your Sako, that would have had ballistic performance akin to a .223, would not have been out of place in the long range F Class competition. That is where you come across some very fine engineering and a dedicated, fine group of very accepting people, with 'ordinary' quality rifles eg Sako and Tikka there to keep them honest.

F Class
http://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/03/11/4195454.htm

Many prefer to compete with themselves over shorter ranges and good for them too.

The very economical .22 has its own following and a very large one that is too.

It is all fun, good humour and socialising.

Paul,

How low can your lot stoop?

Curtis Cheng was shot with an illegal pistol by a Muslim terrorist who was not a licenced gun owner.If his son wants to stand up with the Greens then he too will cop flack

Why the continual attacks on the law abiding?

Is Sandalplank a mate of the criminal side of society?
One would think so as he never has a cross word to say about them, it's always the decent people that he attacks.

Bye the way, Paul, you ought to invest in Spellcheck, it's free.

Hi there HASBEEN...

I must admit I'm more than a little concerned at the prospect of you having a .177 Air Rifle in your possession ? Notwithstanding the immense power of the airborne armaments you had available to you, when you flew with the Navel Fleet Air Arm ?

Indeed the old and original 'scatter gun' worked wonders when it came to scaring off the many predators that used to plague the cocky's precious crops, all those years ago. You could still buy them at the local hardware store, if my memory serves me right. I suppose half a dozen sticks of AN60 have superseded that little effort, I should think ?

Your efforts of making your own 'scatter gun' could well backfire if you're not careful ? You could be charged with building a 'weapon of mass destruction' ? Alternatively, you could always claim you're constructing a devise to commemorate the annual 'Rag Heads Day' at your local Mosque ? In that way the authorities would be far too nervous and timid, to pursue the matter any further ? The mind boggles at the endless possibilities ? Speak again soon.

Paul,

"....at the hands of a gun...."
I that the new technology that we keep hearing about?

You need a bit more than Spellcheck!!

Is Mise, people in glass houses should not throw stones!

You need a reality check, it will take more than a spell check to bring back the lives of those taken by people with guns, you think it sport to make light of the loss of life that has occurred recently in the community.

It is my aim, as it is the aim of David Shoebridge and The Greens in NSW to rib the community of every last gun. legal and illegal. For those that cannot stomach that I say, TOUGH!

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

I'm sorry old man I'm completely unaware of the competition series to which you refer ? The only club shooting I did, was at the now redundant ANZAC Range, Liverpool. I belonged to the Hurstville VDC Club, and we regularly shot on Saturdays under the auspices of the MDRCU (Metropolitan District Rifle Clubs Union)

We used the standard military SMLE .303 Rifles, save all fitted with aperture sights (Rawson, Central or Parker Hale) and a properly bedded-in heavy barrel. We fired two 'downs' of 12 x shots - two being 'sighter's', the other ten being 'business'. Therefore the competition was scored out of a 20 shots. The distances at which our competition regularly shot were from 300 to 900 yards inclusive.

Provided we attained an aggregate of ninety out of a possible of one hundred, your name would mysteriously appear in the Sports section of the Sunday papers, a rare event for me as I was invariably stuck on the high eighties most of the time ! I shot regularly each Saturday, from 1957 'til 1960 when I joined the ARA. Interestingly, in 1957/58 I didn't have a car, so I commuted to Liverpool by train, whenever another club member couldn't give me a lift ? My rifle was fully exposed on the train, and the only 'looks' I received were from young children who were obviously captivated by the sight of the rifle.

They were memorable days for me OTB. We all enjoyed a sense of innocence I contend ? Target shooting was a noble sport (particularly that of 'big bore') skillfully and exactingly preparing many young inexperienced blokes, to expertly handle big bore military calibres. And at the same time, honing and maintaining the existing prowess of older shooters. In so doing, basically preparing some to mount a basic level of resistance should the nation again suffer the ignominy of a possible military invasion.

I'm positive IS MISE would remember the 'Big Bore Clubs' of the fifties and sixties ? All superbly organised, and the participants taught so much, by bona fide experts !

It still is a noble sport,

http://www.qldrifle.com/

Paul,

I only make fun of those who qualify, you did!

"Welcome to another edition of the Sporting Shooter e-newsletter, the first linking to our fresh new website – let us know what you think.

We lead with a report that the recommendation to reclassify lever actions has failed – for now. On a related subject, Gun Control Australia’s “mass protest” over the Adler has attracted only a handful of people.

In other news, a firearm used in a 2002 murder was found in the hands of criminals 10 years after it was supposedly destroyed by Police."

What's your Parliamentary mate got to say about the last paragraph above?
Glorious chance to get stuck into the real crims and not decent law abiding fellow citizens.

Pray tell us, Paul.
What was the coverage of the rally and how many people were at it?

O sung wu,

your remarks about thinking of bringing home a 1911 Colt awoke memories because I had intended to do the same.
They were easy to get in Korea the going price being a bottle of Scotch, which we could get but a lot of American troops couldn't.
My platoon corporal sent home a 'Burp' gun that he had captured; he sent it in bits over a period of a couple of months.
Imagine his surprise when a parcel arrived for him from Customs; there was his gun along with a friendly note to the effect that he might need it more where he was than in Australia.
He had wondered why his father hadn't mentioned the bits arriving but put it down to his dad being cautious. Customs must have checked the first parcel and put his name on a watch list.

I found out after we returned to Australia that a number of the younger officers had brought Colts home with them and got them ashore in Brisbane, where the battalion marched, by the simple expedient of carrying them ashore in their holsters instead of their issue pistols and as they were allowed to wander about a bit after the march, they posted the illegals home and came back on board with their holsters stuffed full of paper and their issue clasp knives under the holster flap and attached to the pistol lanyards.

Simple!!

Yeah IS MISE... they were the days when men were men and sheep were nervous ? I think the little lecture we all copped from the Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal had the desired effect on me at least. I believe we were more wary of them, than a conventional MP. Though I must admit the Aussie provosts were infinitely better than many of the Yanks, and absolutely miles ahead of the notorious 'White Mice'.

If called upon to stop by 'the Mice', you'd better obey, lest they put a couple of 9mm's over your head in quick time. Their ability to differentiate between hostiles and us, was positively non-existent, so we were all particularly cautious especially after dark in Saigon or the village of Vung Tau when the 'Mice' were madly trundling around in their Jeeps !

I did hear that a couple of blokes brought back some very interesting knives, switch blades and push daggers etc. I would've relished owning a 1911 Colt .45 ACP, purely as a memento, nothing more sinister.

From the little I've read of the Korean War I couldn't imagine how very cold it must have been operating in such icy conditions ? We had it hot and humid, at least you could get your greens off, but where you were in the intense cold must have been absolutely demoralising ?

Is Mise, we encourage you to shoot animals with a camera and not a gun. Good folk are sickened to see photos of dead and injured animals, which are the results of the senseless actions of the gun happy brigade.

US dentist accused of killing Cecil the lion 'upset' as hunter becomes hunted;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/28/walter-palmer-dentist-accused-killing-cecil-lion-upset-hunter-zimbabwe

Paul,

Tell us all how many people were at the much touted rally, besides the Press and the three pro-gun persons?
You were there, perhaps you did a head count?
Five? Ten?

By the accounts that I've read there were so many there that the organizers retreated indoors to make it look better.

Is it true, as many are saying, that Mary Cusumano said that her husband would have been alive if he had had a gun?

Just answer the questions, Paul, and resist the urge to obfustcate.

I'm afraid I have misled you o sung wu. The carbide "gun" does not emit projectiles. The build up of carbide is inconsistent, but the things fires it when it reaches the correct mixture.

This gives an intermittent very loud BANG. This is supposed to frighten the vermin off. My advice from those who used them is that they do work for a while. However the effect reduces with time, & the more varied the time between firings, the longer they work.

We do have a couple of neighbours at about 200 metres, who might not like the noise. We will only know if it is offensive, if we can get it working.

Is Mise, do you get all your misinformation from the Shooters and Hooters E-Mag, that ridiculous blog most likely edited by that crazy pair from the NSW LC 'The Two Bobs'.

The last edition carried the headline "Its Fun To Kill Cuddly Koala's"

I have a story for you. i always have a story for you.

Some years back I ran the social club where I worked, there was this odd bloke, John, how I knew he was odd, because he was into shooting and hunting, also kept a swag of porno mags in his bottom draw, that's neither here nor there.

The story... John came to me and said;

"I have a great idea for a fun social event!"

"What's that John" I replied

"PAINT BALL!"

"What's that!" was my startled reply

"Well, we all dress up like army, and run around the bush with guns, and shoot paint balls at each other." "Its fun!" said John.

I thought "It would be more fun pulling nasal hair out of each others nose with a pair of tweezers, than this ridiculous paint ball."

We never did get to go and enjoy the wholesome pleasure of paint balling, have you?

Is Mise, are you a devotee of PAINT BALL! Just asking?

No, Paul, I'm not; I think that it's a bit ridiculous.
I got over shooting at people games when I was an infantryman.
However paintball is a harmless game and a lot of people enjoy it, that's probably why the Greens don't like it.

Now I've answered your question, how about answering mine?

How many people were at that GCA Public rally?

Is Mise, did you like my paintball story, I'll have another one for you shortly.

To answer yours question. Lots, some reckon the number was actually lots and lots, but my count was only lots, after all it was raining on the day.
What sort of primary vote did those two imbos, Tweedle Dum Bod, and his sidekick Tweedle Even Dummer Bob, get at the last NSW election?

The overwhelming popular opinion of good Aussie folk is they want less guns in the community, not more! It is of no value if a person is killed by a legal or illegal gun, the end result is the same. DEAD!

You need the Two Bobs to put the following up on their E-blob

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Answer the question, Paul.
How many were at the rally and did the three gun owners swell the total by 33.3%?
The overall opinion is that the rally was a flop.

o sung wu

My old and very reliable M21 sniper, chambered for 338 lap, served me well and they really never
knew what hit them up to 300y and good for 1000y when the wind conditions were in your favor.
I brought all my weapons back to Aussie through Darwin on a US military transport and never saw customs.
As far as i know my M21 is still kicking around in the territory reducing the buffalo numbers.

Chriss and o sung wu,

We had an armourer at 2 Base Wksp, RAEME. who went to Vietnam and he made certain arrangements with the boss before he went.
A month or so before he was due to return an Arms Chest arrived addressed to The Armoury, 2 Base etc.
The lid was painted black with two white bands across it and at the top of the centre panel over the address was OHMS in large white letters.

On the remaining panels was neatly listed, also in white, the contents which were all desirable and varied firearms.

It was put in the store and there remained till his happy return.

A M21 chambered for .338 Lapua Magnum would have been a very rare beast back then I would have thought.

G'day again CHRISGAFF1000...

Wow you're talking one hell of a calibre in the .338 Lapua, apparently the choice of many of the US, European, and British military marksmen.

I must admit Chris I don't know the precise ballistic details of this ctg. other than it can convey a pretty heavy round of circa 250gr. out to 1000metres without too much drop, and with plenty of m/energy 'to go'.

Unfortunately I never attempted to import any 'goodies' when we were repatriated, but as I told IS MISE I would've very much liked to've brought back a genuine .45ACP - not to stick-up banks mind you, just to possess, nothing more !

The only 'odd' military piece I did bring home was a M57, firing device for the inimitable M18A1, complete with safety bail which are usually lost - OK, big deal, still the M18 when activated, made itself undoubtedly known in spades, a great talking piece I reckon.

IS MISE...

Which proves the point, if you're well placed, work in the right areas, and know the right people, you could've brought back the complete inventory for the entire campaign ! Myself, being a chap of nervous disposition, I wasn't courageous enough to embark upon a career of, returning the odd bits of D of D kit to the motherland, while it still had some potential use 'in country' ?

That said, many in my platoon had carefully snookered away all manner of gear and paraphernalia, together with a lengthy suite of excuses, and explanations, should they happen to run foul of Aussie Customs. As I mentioned earlier, it was my intention to (possibly) re-enlist, and I didn't want to have any heavy allegations pending, for participating in some absurdly ridiculous, arms smuggling event !

So I reasoned, this beloved 1911 .45ACP, should be consigned, ostensibly where it was always destined to be; conveniently concealed deep within the belongings of another grunt, who was apparently blessed with a far less nervous disposition than I, and with the intent that it never to be seen again ?

o sung wu,

The cold in Korea wasn't all that bad for me because we were issued with British Cold Weather Uniformn (Artic, troops for the use of!!)
Starting from the feet we wore two pairs of heavy woolen socks and our boots were oversize to accommodate (along with our feet!) the socks and a plastic innersole that allowed air to circulate under the foot.
Boots were leather, high topped, and with an integral rubber sole.99% waterproof.
Underwear:
String vest to allow air flow, cotton and woolen long sleeved singlet, Outer wear:
Woolen shirt, woolen long sleeved jumper, windproof coat (7 layers of japara ), outer parka that had a hood and came down to the knees and which could be hitched between the legs, parka liner.
Long johns that had a rear flap, heavy woolen pants that could be worn indoors as well as outdoors under the outer trousers, again wind proof and made from multiple layers of Japara (9 I think).

Head gear:
Woolen balaclavas, woolen nose protectors, woolen gloves, woolen 'Caps, comforter' and slouch hats (allowed to be worn with chin straps up over the brim as they could stick to the face)

On patrol and standing guard, slouch hats only as balaclavas or anything else could impede hearing.
I was fortunate because as a wireless op I was allowed to wear a balaclava to stop the head phones freezing to my ears.
The motto was "Better frost bitten ears than dead".

In the squad tents we had two petrol fired heating stoves; 'Chuffas' from the characteristic noise that they made.

The first Australian troops to experience the sub zero Korean winter had Australian winter gear and they suffered.

"A farmer whose property had been at the centre of an illegal land-clearing dispute has been charged with murder after allegedly shooting dead an environment officer.

Ian Robert Turnbull, 79, is accused of killing 51-year-old NSW Environment Department compliance and regulation officer Glen Turner at Croppa Creek, 55 kilometres north of Moree in northern New South Wales."

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Never mind the history lessons, Paul, how many were at the rally?

New acronym for the use of OLO posters
"JATQP"

"Just answer the question, Paul".

//Never mind the history lessons, Paul, how many were at the rally?//

Is that what determines the strength of somebody's argument, Is Mise? The size of the crowd they can drum up for their rally? Because I seem to recall there being some fairly large crowds at the Nuremberg rallies...

"When you see that feathered friend better get out of the way,
especially if they're packing a piece better arm yourself today.
It's us or them have to stop them in their tracks,
Always keep watching your back.

It's time to kill not a time to die so load your weapons now,
There's a dark cloud on the skyline better shoot those suckers down.
They're out to get you, you'd better be first.
Give them what they deserve.

Guns don't kill ducklings, ducklings kill ducklings
Stop them all they will destroy our whole society,
Guns don't kill ducklings, ducklings kill ducklings
they're the biggest threat to your masculinity."
- Frenzal Rhomb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVLSU_p_Xo0

onthebeach,Is Mise,o sung wu,

Being embedded with the US 173rd Airborne and operating as Long Range Recon these
weapons were modified and supplied by their base armorers and were a blessing especially when
fitted with a custom suppressor that sounded like popping a coke can.
no flash, limited sound and dead accurate to 750+ yards = perfect
It came with a 5 or 20 round mag.
I found for the work I did the 5 shot box was more practical.

Thanks for that Toni.

Is Mise, I answered your question previously. I said there were lots, some others put the number at lots and lots, but I believe the number was only lots! But two people who were there, Mary Cusumano who's husband Angelo was murdered by a person with a gun, as was Alpha Cheng father Curtis. I don't much care, nor do they, whether their loved ones were murdered by a legal or illegal gun, the fact remains their lives were taken forever, and if the anti-gun campaign saves but just one life, its worth it.
I'm sure its not easy for Mary and Alpha to front up and speak about these things, they are not professional politicians, just ordinary people who lives have been altered forever because of the actions of a person with a gun.
You hold a particular view on the subject, as do I, but for me as a pacifists, and I hope for you and all others, a gun never alters our lives in the way it has impacted on those two people.

I think Glen Turner's life and the way it was taken prematurely is a bit more than history.

So the rally was a flop, but here's another few questions; you said that the gun owners gate crashed the rally.

How does one gate crash a public meeting?

Or was that just a bit of emotive hyperbole to get the unthinking on side?

What makes the Adler shotgun so different to other shotguns that it required a public meeting about it?

No need for technical details just a general overview will do.

Is Mise, the rally will be a flop only if innocent people continue to be killed by people with guns. If only one person turned up and it saved one life then the rally would be a success.

To answer your questions.

How does one gate crash a public meeting? Don't know, ask a gate crasher.

Or was that just a bit of emotive hyperbole to get the unthinking on side? No, assuming "that" refers to gate crashing.

What makes the Adler shotgun so different to other shotguns that it required a public meeting about it? No difference, yet another killing device.

A question for you.

Would Robert Turnbull, stand accused of SHOOTING DEAD Glen Turner if he did not posses a GUN? A simple yes or no will do.

Paul,

you stated that the shooters gate crashed the meeting; now you say that you don't know; so you made a statement about something that you now admit that you know nothing about. Normal.

Yes he had to have had a gun to shoot the other person, just as the policeman at Parramatta had to have a gun to shoot the terrorist, thereby possibly saving other lives.
As you say, if only one life is saved.

How many were there at that public meeting, five, ten?

Hi IS MISE...

I used to stand picket at night with the sweat pouring off me, dreaming of a couple of 'cold ones' and spending twenty minutes inside a fridge or something. I could never understand how 'close' it got over there at night, and boy did you sweat. Even during stand-down in your hootch you'd lay there listening to the thousands of insects making a racket, and still you sweat ! Though listening to your accounts of Korea, I think I'd rather the tropics to be honest, then being in the very cold weather. To each his own I guess ? Thanks mate.

o sung wu,

More on the cold front.
The Imjin River is a wide meandering stream (or it is where I was) and in winter 52 ton Centurion tanks could drive along on top of it the ice was so thick.
The Engineers used post hole borers to get down under the ice to pump up drinking water, this was delivered during the day in tankers and 44 gallon drums around the various camps were filled for ordinary usage.
There'd be a rush to fill up individual containers when a delivery was made, before the water froze; otherwise the ice had to be chipped out and melted on the stove.

Brrrrr!

Is Mise, since you like to keep score, how many lives are you willing to trade to lax gun laws so that the gun happy brigade can indulge their perverted pleasure, five, ten?

I said I didn't know how they gate crashed the rally. I don't know how their feeble but diabolical minds work. For all I know they could have blasted their way in.

Can I have your opinion of that American grub Walter Palmer, the so called 'Great White Hunter' who shot dead a wonderfully noble creature, a lion named Cecil in Zimbabwe recently. Have a look at the slag in the pic in the following article, and then tell me you approve of his actions. While you are at it, please explain how "hunting" is a sport?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/28/walter-palmer-dentist-accused-killing-cecil-lion-upset-hunter-zimbabwe

Paul,

No one can gate crash a public meeting as you well know.
How many of the faithful turned up at the rally?
Some of those that were there are saying that they felt lonely and that the press outnumbered the protesters.

Is Mise, the good folk of NSW and Australia can judge for themselves. On one side there is the fair and reasonable anti-gun lobby, people like David Shoebridge, and then there is the grubs on the other side, the gun happy Rambo's, like Bob Ballsup and Slob Bob from the Shooters and Hooters Party. What side are you on, as if I don't know!

I take it from your silence you condone the actions of the 'Great White Hunter' Walter 'Wacko' Palmer and others. Nor can you justify shooting as a sport. How can it be a "sport" when you get out there with your high powered blaster, with its telescopic sight, Blind Freddie couldn't miss, get some poor unsuspecting animal in your cross-hairs and pull the trigger, Slob Bob's your uncle. Dead or suffering animal is the result, I ask again, how is that a "SPORT"?

Would it not be a sport if you got, say 13 great white hunters on one side, armed with their AK47's, and 13 on the other side armed with M16's, and the ref fires off the Howitzer, not that there is any rules with these Rambo's, and the winner is the team with the last man standing. Now that would be a sport, a real contest. there is no contest in shooting poor defenseless animals. It would be a bit like that paintball, but with live ammunition, now there's a contest. Is Mise can I count on you to captain one side?

Paul,

"....but with live ammunition, now there's a contest. Is Mise can I count on you to captain one side?"

Been there, done that.

How many at the rally?

Why the Adler?

//Why the Adler?//

Why indeed, Is Mise? You've stated repeatedly that the Adler is no different to other lever-action shotguns. So why is everybody apparently so keen to get their hands on an Adler, not one of the other shotguns which you tell us do exactly the same thing? What is so special and unique about the Adler that only it will do, rather than one of the other equally well functioning lever action shotguns which are already on the market? If they're just as good, why wouldn't gun-bunnies just buy one of those instead of making such a big song and dance about one particular shotgun? Are you sure the Adler doesn't have some sort of 'advantage' over other shotguns?

Toni,

Only advantage is that it's slightly lighter, the question is why are the antis making all the song and dance?
The Greens and the three members of Gun Control Australia started the gyrations of the rather silly dance, it's their dance and it is they who keep on attacking law abiding citizens.

//Only advantage is that it's slightly lighter//

A weapon for sportsmen who don't like to exert themselves too much. I can dig it. But why even go to the trouble of travelling all the way to the nearest shooting range and picking up a gun in the first place? Why not just stay home and watch televised shooting events? That'd save even more exertion.

One of the biggest jokes in New South Wales is "getting a gun licence". The so called exam is often conducted in gun shops at night, by shop proprietors or employees who have a vested interest in all and sundry passing, and getting a licence. Even the wackos who turn up for the "test" in sudo-army outfits, the fatigues, looking a lot like John Rambo, and talking like a neanderthal, are often given the answers to ensure they pass, probably no one ever fails.

Paul,

Can't help it can you, must you continually shew your ignorance?

Bye the way, what are approved sports shooting associations if shooting is not a sport?

Toni,

In a nutshell, exercise; you know that activity that the Government is continually urging Australians (particularly the fat ones) to do more of.

Paul et al

Here's a pic of my favourite gun, the one that I mostly hunt with.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1447202251/0#0

You can obtain a firearms licence in NSW even if you have been convicted of the following prescribed offences;

A prescribed offence is a conviction for offences involving firearms or weapons,
prohibited drugs, violence, offences of sexual nature or involving fraud,
dishonesty, stealing, robbery or offences relating to terrorism.

Yes, you could have been convicted of one or all of these offence and still be eligible to hold a firearms licence in NSW, ridiculous in the extreme!

If Ivan Milat was to walk out of prison today, under the existing NSW law he could apply for a firearms licence tomorrow, as his convictions are over 10 years old.

"A person has been convicted within the last 10 years of an offence prescribed"

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!..PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Paul1405,

The NSW 'Watermelon' Greens go out of your way prove that the Greens are bunch of clowns.

Isn't it the policy of leftists and the Greens, that a conviction should not stand in the way of employment, that (say) a sex offence shouldn't block a 'blue' card to work with children?

The headline-hunting doyen of the leftist 'Progressives', Barack Obama leads the way,

"NEWS NOV 2 2015, 6:01 PM ET
Obama Bans Hiring Bias Against Ex-Cons Seeking Federal Jobs"

If you have a serious criminal conviction recorded against you, all the best of luck (NOT!) in trying to get a firearms licence. The police and the thousands of reputable law-abiding citizens with licenses will NOT be buying leftist 'Progressive' and Greens policy on that!

The NSW Stalinist 'Watermelon' Greens are a joke. There must be red noses all round at their knees-ups, which could be held in a phone booth.

G'day there IS MISE...

I must confess I've never seen a frozen river in Vietnam ! You really can't visualise just how cold a country can get when many of it's waterways are frozen solid in winter ? I suppose operating many of your weapons would've been quite difficult as well ? The exposed metal parts would be so cold to touch and to operate, eg. bolt on the SMLE. Even with finger-less gloves, adjusting sights, reloading magazines, all the little 'fiddly' things one needs to do, when handling small arms, particularly in a combat environment ?

I often whinged and moan about the constant wet around us when fording shallow creeks and streams - every damned part of you was continually wet through, either from water immersion or continual sweat ! I must admit I'd prefer that, than the intense bone chilling cold you blokes of 3RAR went through in Korea !

Apropos the LA Adler 12g ? What's all the fuss about do you know, as it was my understanding that issue was put to bed awhile ago now ? A LA 'Shoty' has no greater level of superiority in it's recyclability, then any other LA F/A, as you'd well appreciate IS MISE.

Though I've not handled one, but as you're aware, Shotguns come in many varied configurations, including the inimitable Mossberg Mod 695 12g bolt action with a 3xrd mag. Then there's, *slide action, *semi-auto, *side by side, *U&O and *SS ? The whole spectrum really.

I'm unaware of any sinister aspiration or intent associated with the Adler Shotgun ? After all there's nothing more (modification or otherwise) one can do with the thing ? I'd not wish to own one, as I'm not particularly impressed by their mfg. criterion. They're not dissimilar to that of the Filipino 'Squires Bingham' range of budget F/A's - made to a price, in order to capture the lower end of the market I would've thought ?

Paul,

"A prescribed offence is a conviction for offences involving firearms or weapons,
prohibited drugs, violence, offences of sexual nature or involving fraud,
dishonesty, stealing, robbery or offences relating to terrorism."

Most of those offences may not involve violence, is that why the Greens do not see them as being a bar to having a licence?

Greens' Firearms Policy:
15.1 Have no criminal record involving violence, have a character reference from an authorised member of the community and the right of veto by household (immediate relatives or partners) members;
http://nsw.greens.org.au/policies/nsw/firearms

Suggest that you become familiar with your party's policy.

Hi there PAUL1405...

I understand you're absolutely opposed to private ownership of F/A's, as such I respect you're position on that, and as far as I know, you've never wavered either.

Just one matter I'd like to correct you on if I may in your last thread ? Police can always raise an objection against anybody being granted a F/A licence. If an individual is considered not a fit and proper person to be in possession of a F/A, police can lodge an immediate objection with the Court.

This applies equally to a question of character or mental capacity. Police then have the application listed for hearing before a Magistrate. Whereupon they're required to furnish their reason(s) as to why that individual should not be granted a licence. I've actually seen an appeal go all the way to the Supreme Court ?

On 'mental capacity' there's no requirement for police to prove an applicant is suffering from a diagnosed psychological disorder, pursuant to DSM V, to raise an objection. Only they are, in the opinion of police, not emotionally stable, sufficiently mature or mentally sound, to be in a possession of a F/A. The burden of proof rests with police.

Furthermore, notwithstanding your objections Paul; Shooting has been an (important) constitutive component of the modern Olympics since their genesis, back at the turn of the last century (circa 1895 -1900?). As such I cannot see a time when those specific events that include, precision F/A proficiency are ever summarily removed, without very sound reason(s).

No doubt Paul, there are parts of this whole F/A debate that concern me, otherwise I wouldn't have raised this Topic. But in general terms, I fully support the sport of shooting in all it's forms, as long as those participating are appropriately licenced and participate in the sport in a responsible lawful manner.

An opinion; Any crime committed, where a F/A is used in the commission of that crime, an additional ten years gaol is mandatorily added to the head sentence. This additional punishment is applied, with some success, in a number of American States.

The Greens throw mud. Stirrers who never let the truth ruin a protest. Anything for a headline.

The reality is vastly different. Here are some examples,

http://www.shootingaustralia.org/index.php

http://www.paralympic.org.au/athlete/natalie-smith/

o sung wu,
we had Browning 12g 10 round pump guns loaded with mini ball bearings for close "brush clearance"
The UN didn't approve but we did.
If there was anything lurking in the scrub he had a problem.
I don;t see the problem with the 'Adler" unless its name was Larry

Hi, o sung wu, nothing to correct, an anomaly with the laws covering firearm licences in NSW is as I stated. If what I had posted was incorrect good old Is Mise, backed up by Beach, would have been jumping up and down, they are not. In fact is Mise is some what apologetic, playing the seriousness down, saying "Most of those offences may not involve violence" So what.
"Police can always raise an objection against anybody being granted a F/A licence" of course they can, but why should the community have to rely on the police to take action, it should be automatic, considering the offences covered as prescribed are rather serious, terrorism.

Beach, "bunch of clowns." we are not the ones who favour a 'citizens militia' which once upon a time you put forward on OLO, calling it a gun sporting club or some such nonsense.

"knees-ups, which could be held in a phone booth." you stole that line from me when I called you out about your party leader Jim Saleam and Australia First.

Beach, you are a bit confused about who is where, you start mixing up the NSW Greens with Barack Obama, we are in Sydney, Obama is in Washington 16,000km away.

Is Mise, hunting is a spot because the gun happy brigade choose to call it a sport. In sport there is generally two equal sides, playing by agreed rules. When did the cuddly kolas agree people could shoot them out of the trees and call it sport. You could beat Novak Djokovic at tennis, if he had both hands tied behind his back wearing a blindfold, and had no racket, you would have the ace racket and get to serve all the time. Then you would call it sport, just like hunting. The people who engage in cock fighting and bear baiting call that sport to.

What about a comment on Walter Palmer who killed Cecil the lion, do you call that sport?

The Greens are clowns if they do not understand the extent of the powers and discretion delegated the Police Commissioner and discretion is needed.

As usual the Greens are muck-raking. It is all about protests and headlines. If Milat was released etc., what mendacious cr@p.

mendacious

not telling the truth; lying.
"mendacious propaganda"
synonyms: lying, untruthful, dishonest, deceitful, false, dissembling, insincere, disingenuous, hypocritical, fraudulent, double-dealing, two-faced, Janus-faced, two-timing, duplicitous, perjured, perfidious.

Describes the NSW 'Watermelon' Greens to a tee.

You would think, on today of all days, 97 years on from the first Armistice Day, the day that seen the end of the war to end all wars, we would no longer be arguing about the weapons used in war to kill so many, that we would be united in peace. Unfortunately not, we have learned little in those 97 years, and that is a shame.

The world is just like you Beach, full of anger, full of hate, all I can say at the moment is I don't know you bro, but I do love you. Same for me old sparing partners Is Mise and o sung wu, love you to bros and lets have an armistice on this discussion, at least for the rest of the day, the whole hour that's left.

Think I'll have another scotch, and listen to a bit more Bob Marley as well. i'll find a nice song for you guys to listen to on YouTube.

It ain't Bob, his mate Jimmy Cliff will have to do, have a listen, one day you might even get to like it a little. I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OChrbIR6oHs

//In a nutshell, exercise//

ROFLMAO. If picking up a gun counts as exercise then so does picking up my playstation controller. Or my TV remote. I think when the Government talk about exercise they mean some sort of physical activity which actually requires a reasonable degree of exertion - at least enough to raise a sweat and make one short of breath. I'm not really sure that lifting a gun which has been specifically chosen because it doesn't weigh as much as others really counts, unless perhaps you're doing a whole lot of reps on that lift. But honestly, if the way you want to exercise is by lifting things up and putting them down again then you'd be better off investing in some weights (which are expressly designed for the purpose of being lifted) or a gym membership (which have all their own weights).

I find weight training to be a very dull form of exercise and prefer to go kayaking for an upper body workout, but it is effective. I can't imagine that picking up a shotgun a few times a week is going to help any fat bastards shed their excess adipose. They're gonna be better off just going for a run. If they really want, they can carry a shotgun while they're running. I find that carrying excess water in my backpack is a cheaper way to increase my weight, but if people really have their heart set on a shotgun... they should buy something heavier than the Adler to maximise their workout.

I like it Toni, if guns make you fit I would have to say, its been a failure for Slob Bob from the Shooters and Hooters Party in NSW, all 200kg of him. A good form of exercise could be if Slob Bob and his trusty sidekick Bob Ballsup were to "run" around a paddock and have the gang from here take pot shots at them with the brand spank'n new Adler popguns. Although there would be no prize for hitting Slob Bob, too big a target and too slow moving to qualify

Toni,

I hunt on the upper reaches of the eastern slopes of the Dividing Range where gullies are often deep and steep and the valleys are even better.
My preferred shotgun is lighter than the Adler.
Tramping over that country is good exercise and helps to keep me a fit 81 year old.
I still do Service Shoots with the Lee-Enfield .303 rifle, these involve running from firing point to firing point, again good exercise and with a near 10 pound weapon.

I shoot pistols as well, there is a lot of exercise involved in being able to hold a heavy pistol steady, as any dedicated pistol shooter will tell you.

Paul,

Why do the Greens endorse hunting in their firearm policies?
Why did Shoebridge vote for hunting on Government controlled land?
How many were at that meeting?

Finally why are you against law abiding citizens enjoying their lawful activities?
Is it because you don't meet the criteria to hold a firearms licence?
Have you been found wanting and the Police Commissioner doesn't consider you to be a fit and proper person?

Hi Is mise, great to hear from you on this bright and cheerful Sydney morn. I like your story, you remind me of Jed Clampett, you remember Jed, its bout a man named Jed, a poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed. And then one day, he was shootin' at some food. The rest is history.

Now about that exercise, have you ever considered taking Slob Bob along with you on one dem der critter shootin'. Bob would be about half your age, but twice your weight, that should even you up.
Seeing good old Bob Ballsup in action, he reminds me more of Jethro Bodine (Jed's nephew) except Jethro is twice as smart.

You asked "Is it because you don't meet the criteria to hold a firearms licence?
Have you been found wanting and the Police Commissioner doesn't consider you to be a fit and proper person?

No, I've never had the "pleasure" of applying for a gun licence. Never owned a gun, unless you call a water pistil as a kid a gun.

I keep answering your questions, how about a comment on 'dead eye dick' Walter 'Wacko' Palmer who killed Cecil the lion? Are you too ashamed of his actions to comment, me thinks so.

Paul,

You owned a water pistol?
Shame, one of the nastiest kinds of firearm that there could be,
if ever restrictions were necessary then they should be severely restricted.
However anyone can own a water pistol, why aren't the Greens doing something about the unrestricted availability of these nasty weapons?

"I keep answering your questions,[no you don't] how about a comment on 'dead eye dick' Walter 'Wacko' Palmer who killed Cecil the lion? Are you too ashamed of his actions to comment, me thinks so."

What Palmer did appears to have been legal but I'm not a keeper of trophies myself.

The mendacious*, hypocritical Greens clowns are muck-raking. It is all protests and headlines.

The Greens ride the totalitarian gun confiscation wagon with secret-squirrel activists who are alleged to receive support, training and funding from highly secretive overseas source/s including the SOROS corporation. Billionaire currency dealer Soros is credited with nearly sending the Bank of England to the wall, which would have lost the savings of thousands of small depositors.

Soros convicted of insider trading, France,

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2002/dec/20/france.internationalnews

It is also alleged that the SOROS corporation is involved in supporting leftist activism, an example being the '#occupy' demonstrations.

Why would a billionaire currency dealer who acquired his wealth off of the backs of small investors by gaming the stock market in other countries, want to disarm licensed citizens of western democracies? Or provide support to serial leftist activists and encourage demonstrations?

That is anybody's guess, but Australians resent and reject foreign interests interfering in domestic politics, especially behind closed doors.

More Greens Hypocrisy
In Queensland, Labor and Greens vowed in the recent election to repeal the highly successful Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013 (VLAD). That was despite ongoing public and business objections, especially in SEQld.

Oddly (maybe not!) deep-sixing the VLAD is one of the highest priorities (along with lowering the age of consent for anal sex) of the Qld Labor government and their Greens sidekicks.

Yet the bikies and other organised gangs manufacturing and trafficking drugs are responsible for the 'Ice' epidemic and almost all of the (albeit low) incidence of gun crime in Australia.

It was never the mythical 'gun culture' that Australia has to be worried about, but the culture of imported criminal gangs. The imported criminal gangs who deal in drugs have imported their violence and corrupt political systems with them. That's diversity for you.

*mendacious

not telling the truth; lying.
"mendacious propaganda"
synonyms: lying, untruthful, dishonest, deceitful, false, dissembling, insincere, disingenuous, hypocritical, fraudulent, double-dealing, two-faced, Janus-faced, two-timing, duplicitous, perjured, perfidious.

-Describes the NSW 'Watermelon' Greens to a tee.

G'day there CHRISGAFF1000...

Larry ADLER was probably the best Harmonica player ever ! He could play Jazz, contemporary Rock even some classical pieces such was his brilliance.

Hell mate, no wonder the UN didn't like you too much ! Wouldn't the 00 buck do the same job for you ? Nine pellets of .33 calibre each, clear the scrub, scare the birds and send the VC an alternate treatment method for blocked nasal passages ! Many of the Yanks loved their 870's in SV, as you say great for the bush and a decided psychological advantage too apparently ! And as opined by many, the 'great equaliser'?

Hi again PAUL1405...

Apropos your comments concerning the Dentist Walter PALMER who killed 'Cecil' the Lion. Perhaps I'm wrong, didn't he hunt Cecil with a compound bow ? He wounded the beast, pursued him on foot, and he was later shot dead by PALMER'S guide ? Whatever the circumstances, it was a reprehensible crime against a defenseless animal who was relatively tame according to media accounts. PALMER needs a thorough flogging, gaol and his guides punished as well. Still in that part of the world corruption is rife over there, so what can you do ?

Paul1405 introduced Palmer as a diversion to duck some inconvenient truths. It is obviously irrelevant to the thread.

However, since one foreign example has been raised, the hypocritical Greens support Native Title and aboriginal traditional hunting rights in Australia, which results in the death of threatened species and by very cruel methods indeed.

That celebrated,'unique' and even worshipful(sic) relationship with the land, flora and fauna results in such unnecessary cruelty as harpooned turtles being kept alive - stored on their backs with flippers cut off - until wanted, when they are butchered alive.

Australia's extreme 'Big M' Multiculturalism and indigenous political correctness declare that such dreadful treatment of placid animals is not cruel at all! Can't be, it's 'traditional'. So there!

SBS: Traditional hunting 'not animal cruelty'
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2012/06/22/traditional-hunting-not-animal-cruelty

According to the callous, racist Greens it all turns on just who is doing the killing (and storing).

Thankfully, most people see it differently. The public disagree with the Greens and the multicultural zealots and would side with this opinion (see linked article below),

http://www.lawsociety.com.au/cs/groups/public/documents/internetyounglawyers/2007first.pdf

Paul and other Greens

See OTB's second link, particularly page 5, middle paragraph.
Then tell us why the Greens support such extreme cruelty.

Beach what was the relevance of you introducing "Obama Bans Hiring Bias Against Ex-Cons Seeking Federal Jobs" then you tried to link Barack Obama to the NSW Greens, he's not even a member.

Is Mise "What Palmer did appears to have been legal" good to see you are a supporter of the laws of the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe. I did not ask you if it was legal, I asked for your opinion. Is there a difference?

Thanks o sung wu, I feel exactly the same, it was a reprehensible crime against a defenseless animal.

Is Mise "Then tell us why the Greens support such extreme cruelty." I could not find any reference to The Greens on page 5 middle paragraph or any other page or paragraph. Please point out the reference to The Greens supporting this extreme cruelty.
Based on your line all I would have to say is "Its legal" but my opinion is its inhumane.

Paul,

for a good look at what the Greens are really like see: particularly page 5 middle paragraph.

Quote:
http://www.lawsociety.com.au/cs/groups/public/documents/internetyounglawyers/2007first.pdf
From the Greens' NSW site, under policies.

"50. Assist Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island peoples to retain and or reclaim their cultural heritage, including language, items of cultural heritage, sites of cultural significance, traditional ecological knowledge and access to, and use of traditional fisheries and other natural resources in line with cultural practice"

Key words: ".... in line with cultural practice".

This exemplifies that they support extremely cruel hunting and in a racist manner.

//I hunt on the upper reaches of the eastern slopes of the Dividing Range where gullies are often deep and steep and the valleys are even better.
My preferred shotgun is lighter than the Adler.
Tramping over that country is good exercise and helps to keep me a fit 81 year old.//

I go bushwalking in similar terrain. There are people in my bushwalking club even older than you. They manage to stay fit and vital by tramping over that country, but they don't feel it necessary to carry a gun and shoot at stuff. So with all due respect, I think it is probably the bushwalking and not the shooting at stuff which is keeping you fit. In which case, the shooting at stuff is a pointless and unnecessary expense... unless you can get free ammo with a Senior's Card. It's a bit like paying for a gym membership but only going there to use their treadmills: walking is free.

//You owned a water pistol?
Shame, one of the nastiest kinds of firearm that there could be,
if ever restrictions were necessary then they should be severely restricted.//

Do you have rabies? Do you melt when you get splashed with water like the Wicked Witch of the West? What's with the hydrophobia? A bit of water isn't going to kill you, you big Jessie.

A metal projectile being propelled at considerable velocity through your body is a different story. The immediate damaging effect of a gunshot wound is typically severe bleeding, and with it the potential for hypovolemic shock, a condition characterized by inadequate delivery of oxygen to vital organs. In the case of traumatic hypovolemic shock, this failure of adequate oxygen delivery is due to blood loss, as blood is the means of delivering oxygen to the body's constituent parts. Devastating effects can result when a bullet strikes a vital organ such as the heart or lungs, or damages a component of the central nervous system such as the spine or brain. Common causes of death following gunshot injury include exsanguination, hypoxia caused by pneumothorax, catastrophic injury to the heart and larger blood vessels, and damage to the brain or central nervous system. Additionally, gunshot wounds typically involve a large degree of nearby tissue disruption and destruction due to the physical effects of the projectile. Non-fatal gunshot wounds can result in serious disability.

Hi Is Mise, I understand as a hunter, you may hold a dismissive attitude towards human life, as you definitely do when it comes to the lives of animals. As you have little regard for animal suffering, you may posses a similar attitude when it comes to human suffering from gun shot wounds. Thanks Toni for the run down on the effects of gun shot wounds.

To quote from the christian bible;

"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

I would have thought at 81 you might have caught on by now, but then again some of us are slow learners.

I don't know anyone in The Greens who condones the traditional way Torres Strait Islanders cruelly hunt dugong and sea turtle. I would prefer through education that indigenous people could still carry on their traditions but in a humane way.

A story, I have another story for you.

My partner "T"s uncle Marshall was one of the last Maori in the north of New Zealand who hunted kiwi ( the little flightless birds, not the people, ancestors done that), might have been the last. Back in the 1960's at about your age uncle Marshall was out in the bush trapping kiwi's, he took them home, boiled them up, and ate them. One day the coppers turned up at his bush property and said "Marshall C you gotta stop hunting kiwi, we've had complaints, and its the law now, no more kiwi hunting. Seems Marshall grabed his old gun and wanted to shoot the coppers, protesting "I've hunted, and ate kiwi since I was a boy and you ain't gona stop me now." According to "T" the coppers didn't arrest him, took his unloaded gun off him just told him to cool down and "no more" then left. She suspects uncle kept hunting kiwi, on the quite, until he died aged about 90.

Toni,

Good description of gun shot wounds, that's why when hunting feral animals or animals for food I always try for brain or heart shots with a rifle and the shot gun is only used or rabbits, hares and foxes; with those soft skinned animals the spread of shot ensures that they die instantly.
Shooting is humane whereas the Greens endorsed option of using 1080 poison on ferals is inhumane causing lingering death and unintended kills of wildlife.
By carrying a gun on my tramps I get the opportunity to eradicate feral pests and to also collect fresh meat for a few cents, important consideration for us pensioners.

On water pistols and their danger.
Ink and urine are two annoying substances that may be propelled from them; however urine from an AIDs infected person might be more than annoying.
Vinegar or one of the more liquid sauces are disabling when the eyes are hit but incapacitation is temporary (usually).
Turpentine, kerosene and petrol have more lasting effects and if used in conjunction with a cigarette lighter have the capacity to destroy life or seriously injure.
Paint stripper is another very dangerous liquid and can cause blindness and even death when squirted from a projector, such as the common water pistol.

Why aren't the Greens and GCA demanding the immediate banning of the freely available injurious liquid projectors?

Paul,

The Greens endorse Indigenous hunting, therefore they endorse the practices used and to endorse hunting for one race and condemn it for others is racism.

Leftists' denialism is only to be expected when they are confronted by their 'wobblies', half-truths and the unforeseen negative consequences of their social experimentation.

Behaviour is the only guide. It is noticeable that in Queensland the Labor government (and their supporting Greens sidekicks) headed by Annastacia Palaszczuk MP for Inala and with leftist womyn in Police, Attorney-General and other relevant senior ministerial positions did NOT choose anything like the mandated cruel indigenous hunting practices (as protected by Native Title) as priorities for action.

What did the leftists in Qld choose as priorities? The answer is their very first priorities along with protecting grubs like Billy Gordon,
http://tinyurl.com/billygordon
and the shocker of a Police Minister, Jo-Ann Miller,
http://tinyurl.com/Jo-Ann-Miller
were to deep-six the previous government's successful Queensland's Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment (VLAD) Act, the anti-bikie legislation, and to lower the age of consent to anal sex.

Yet this report from 2014 and many before that along with court appearances, prove that the scourge of ICE and other drugs and the weapons violence that goes with it, are down to bikies and other criminal gangs,

http://tinyurl.com/gangs-illegal-guns

Greens and other leftists have the gall to blame the many thousands of reputable, law-abiding, licensed citizens for the offences and behaviour, including DV, of the lawless, drug-dealing, violent ferals that they, the Green Left in particular, are always defending with rationalisations and protecting.

G'day there TONI LAVIS...

I'm in no way being facetious when I say don't discount the harmful effects occasioned by some idiot with a child's water pistol? A uniformed colleague of mine had a matter involving several year12 male and female students, from a well known public school who thought it would be a great 'end of year' lark to take water pistols to an end of year, school get together.

A couple of the girls decided to load theirs with a mix of water and some cheap perfume, and unknowingly saturate the backs of any and all targets with this offensive mix.

Several of the boys took theirs a bit further, and 'load' theirs with sulphuric acid, taken from one of the School's laboratories and (thankfully) diluted with water. In the mistaken belief, that it would do no more harm, save stain or slightly damage, clothing of several of the year12 female students. However, I'm not entirely sure what effect pure undiluted sulphuric acid would have, on a cheaply made, plastic water pistol?

Consequently some of these unwitting targets, as well as having parts of their clothing stained, suffered from serious (reddened) skin irritation, accompanied with protracted stinging. The origin of these rashes was only discovered because one of these 'intellectual giants' couldn't keep his mouth shut ! Evidence was later deduced, that had any of these concoctions entered an eye, permanent blindness could have resulted. There's no explaining the utter injudiciousness of some young people!

o sung wu,

It is far more likely that those boys of the old coppers tales were in fact using something far more sinister chemical, namely Hydroxyl Acid, or Dihydrogen Monoxide. DHMO is a chemical not easily understood by police and journalists, which is not surprising since government has embargos on release of Safety Data Sheets [SDS]). Hence the (convenient) myth of 'sulphuric acid' in pistols instead.

[quote]<Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.

Dihydrogen monoxide:
- is also known as hydroxl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
- contributes to the "greenhouse effect";
- may cause severe burns;
- contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape;
- accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals;
- may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes; and,
- has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

Contamination is reaching epidemic proportions!
..
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
- as an industrial solvent and coolant;
- in nuclear power plants;
- in the production of styrofoam;
- as a fire retardant;
- in many forms of cruel animal research;
- in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical;
- as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products;

Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme.>

Sign the Greens' Petition, '#ban Hydroxyl Acid' and #Occupythelocalreservoir. If only one child is saved etc.

BTT

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Gulp !...Mate, you've completely left me behind with your explanation of the possible chemical constituents these Year12 hoodlums were using for their water pistols.

Do you think these 'knuckle heads' understood precisely what chemical they were using, if not sulphuric acid ? Furthermore do you think they understood the inherent risks associated with using such a dangerous chemical ? If so, I wonder how and why such potentially harmful material, was generally made available in an ordinary High School Laboratory ?

I heard my mate wanted to prefer charges however the Headmaster was of the opinion it best be left with the School to handle the matter in house. Nevertheless a brief was prepared and I'm not sure what the outcome was ? It must be said OTB police are cautious whenever criminal charges are instituted against school kids, as DPP more often than not, prefer to handle the matter through Diversionary Conferencing route. I suppose stupidity could always be mounted as an adequate defence to criminal capacity, whenever dealing with youths of this lot's calibre?

I must say your knowledge of chemistry is exceptional. While mine is limited to the 1955 NSW Intermediate Certificate. Therefore a career in 'rocket science' is probably not exactly my forte ? On a more serious note, the innocuous plastic water pistol, isn't quite so innocent as one might consider. Therefore there's a potential to 'load it up' with all manner of sinister fluids, which are only limited to availability, and to the breadth of one's imagination ! Emmmm ?

o sung wu,

It is said that all things come out in the wash. Mind you, there are some who would not come clean under a fire hose.

The mystery is why 'Progressive' leftists support scrotes like the violent, drug-dealing criminal outlaw motorcycle gangs and throw open the immigration doors to more of the same

and instead,

sledge our freedom of speech, democratic institutions, justice system, police and reputable law-abiding citizens.

In Queensland, the new Labor government immediately neutered the VLAD law and the effective police strategies that were driving criminal gangs out of business and out of the State. Bikies with such contempt for police that they surrounded a police station and rioted in a family restaurant were given slaps on the wrist. Very soon after, we are advised that one of the participants in the public affray and violence stands accused of running his long term girlfriend off a street in suburbia and beating her to death.

But did Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk and her cabinet of senior womyn as Police Minister, A-G and so on apologise and relent on deep-sixing the only known effective police strategy against the gangs? Did they finally listen to public and business poleas to keep the VLAD in place?

The answer is hell no, they just labelled the young woman's death as 'domestic violence' and beat up a DV program instead.

Now, what would any of the ex- and present police on this forum surmise could be the motivation of Labor and Greens shielding drug-dealing thugs in Queensland and deep-sixing of effective legislation that survived a High Court challenge? Is it just political grandstanding, or lack of political will, or do the millions being made daily from drugs talk somewhere?

What about other States? Victoria for example,
<The brutal truth: there is no outlaw code; bikie gangs are all for money, power and fear>
http://tinyurl.com/nbpbads

Funny that the water pistol which has such a potential for inflicting serious injury, lingering death and sudden death is completely unrestricted, any child can buy one.
In contrast all air soft pistols are classed as lethal weapons yet they can be fired at TV screens with no chance of ever damaging the screen or anything else.
http://www.airsoftcouncil.com.au/index.php/about-airsoft-81/are-they-real-guns#.VkW-PdIrJki

Is Mise a tree branch in the wrong hands could be a lethal weapon. unlike guns tree branches are not designed to kill people.

Glad to hear you don't just kill our little friendly woodland creatures you boil them up in the pot as well. How do you think Walter 'Wacko' Palmer cooked up poor Cecil the lion? French provincial style with a cheeky bearnaise sauce on the side. And don't tell me you don't eat lion because it gives you indigestion.

Interesting,how much would a "pensioner" spend out of his meager pension on a gun to shoot game at a few cents a kilo? A 1000 bucks!

Beach is once again off in Lalaland, aka Queensland, whipping his favorite hobby horse, that Bolshy Labor government up there. Look out Beach, some crazed hunter might come alone and shoot that hobby horse from under you.

A story of your typical responsible hunters! No its not in America, no it didn't happen last century, It happened now, right here in NSW.

'Rambo' hunters wreck bush couple's peaceful paradise but NSW police do nothing!

"pictures caught on CCTV are emailed to the Whitehead's mobile phone, and show slaughtered wombats and wallabies. Fences smashed by trucks."
"It is shattering. We have had three years of hell," Ms Whitehead said"

Is Mise, is that you in the back of the ute?

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/forest-cameras-catch-illegal-hunters-but-nsw-police-no-help-say-bush-couple-20151002-gk0ahb.html

Paul,

My flintlock replica North West trade gun cost me nought, thirty years ago I swapped an antique double barrel percussion shotgun for it and that had been given to me back in the days when such guns were worthless.
I know quite a few pensioners who are glad of a rabbit when I shoot more than I need.
Local deer hunters also think of our pensioners and spread the venison around.
Do you have a problem with the eradication of rabbits or the shooting of deer?
Rabbits are of no use to pensioners or anyone else when they've been poisoned and died a lingering death as the Greens advocate.

Why aren't the Greens trying to ban water pistols, unlike tree branches they are designed to discharge a hurtful irritant liquid, which is illegal under our laws.

How many people were at that famous public meeting, you know the one that you said that the shooters gatecrashed.
Your unconcious humour is far better than your written attempts.

Paul,

Up in Queensland there are also Greens, like Gail Hamilton

"THE head of the Townsville Greens has defended an anti-vaccination rant on the branch Facebook page amid warnings misinformation on immunisation could cost children’s lives....."
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/news/townsville/greens-leader-gail-hamilton-defends-anti-vax-facebook-post/story-fnjfzsax-1227298076868

and in NSW we have
"A FORMER Greens candidate has been charged with grooming a child for sex and having child pornography material after police carried out an online sting.

Karel Solomon, a Greens member who contested the 2012 Marrickville local council election, was arrested on Tuesday afternoon in an undercover police operation.

Police allege Solomon, 61, made sexually explicit comments to a police officer posing as a 13-year-old girl online during the operation last month."
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/greens-hit-by-sex-allegation-former-candidate-karel-solomon-in-police-sting/story-fnpn118l-1227424205855

No further comment as the matter may be sub judice.

In NSW as in Qld the Greens opposed control orders to prevent gangs and gang members accused of criminal activity from associating with each other and from holding firearms and liquor licences. See here,

http://tinyurl.com/Greens-defend-gangs

Despite Greens and Labor opposition the NSW law passed and passed High Court appeal.

<NSW bikie consorting laws upheld: High Court
By Elizabeth Byrne
Updated 8 Oct 2014

The High Court in Canberra has upheld the New South Wales anti-consorting laws, which make it an offence for convicted criminals to repeatedly associate with each other.

The New South Wales Government said it was always confident the laws would hold up to the High Court's scrutiny.
..
"It is not surprising that criminals don't like the laws and wanted them overturned, but today's decision in the High Court ensures they are here to stay," Attorney-General Brad Hazzard said.

"The anti-consorting laws give police the powers they need to disrupt and dismantle criminal organisations, including outlaw motorcycle gangs.">
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-08/high-court-ruling-upholds-nsw-consorting-laws/5797786

Why do the Greens and other radical 'Progressive' leftists protect disgusting criminal gangs who standover vulnerable kids and sad druggies, and are responsible for drive-by shootings? But the deceitful, hypocritical, mendacious Greens and leftists slag the honest, hard-working, reputable citizens who DO obey the laws and pay taxes to support the ferals the Greens protect. How does that figure?

Is Mise, your advice to starving pensioners is to trade in their flintlocks for a shotgun then they can all get out there and bag themselves a mess of varmints! You sure your not Jed Clampett?

"Why aren't the Greens trying to ban water pistols, they are designed to discharge a hurtful irritant liquid" WATER. Hummmm, I ask again sure your not Jed Clampett?

Its all be caught on film, is that you in the front seat sitting next to the driver, who could be Beach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtvTE3m5jpM

I'm positively stunned ! The insanity of Islamic terrorism has again, blatantly been perpetrated against the innocent citizens of Paris. These demented maggots don't have the courage to face similarly armed soldiers, rather preferring to exact a heinous requital on entirely innocent people who're simply out relaxing on a Parisian Friday evening.

Isn't there 'anywhere', a world leader who has the courage to completely extirpate this aberrant Islamic disease, before the whole of mankind erupts into a terrible global catastrophe ?

Paul,

Nothing to say about Green immunization deniers or kiddie fiddlers?

We all eagerly await Sarah Deux-Noms next appearance when she will offer excuses for the down trodden and under privileged Muslims who just did their thing in Paris.

Is Mise, I understand from what you have posted you hold a gun licence. Can you understand from your totally irrational ravings, about immunization deniers and kiddie fiddlers, why I have great concerns for the general community with certain persons holding a gun licence, being prone to irrational thought, they could also be prone to irrational behavior at times as well. Gee, to be honest if I was handing out gun licences I would not give one to myself, and based on your new low line of argument, not to you either.

The fact is we give out these licences far to easily.

Paul,

Irrational ravings?
I merely drew attention to items that had appeared in the media and gave references.
Touched a nerve did I?

Was the bloke caught chatting up underage girls a mate of yours, or did you just work to get him elected?

Do you think that Sarah Deux-Noms will champion the Muslim cause or will she keep her stupid mouth shut for a change?

Is Mise, "Was the bloke caught chatting up underage girls a mate of yours, or did you just work to get him elected?

That remark, and it connotations is offensive to me, and I expect you to apologise, another conservative poster made similar reference to Karel Solomon previously. If Graham Young is consistent then you should receive a suspension. I on the other hand would be happy with a simple apology from you.

No there is nothing you can post which in anyway would touch a nerve with me, say what you like. At least all my post relate to the general topic of guns.

If just 10% of the people in that Parris stadium had been armed, particularly ex servicemen, the terrorists would have been taken out, or at least panicked into their final act of blowing their belts, well before they had killed so many innocent.

It is a ridiculous fools paradise to believe taking guns off law abiding citizens makes the public safer. We are going to have to give the public the capacity to take out, or at least retaliate against these terrorists, rather than sit like dumb targets. Nothing like the target shooting back to put a coward off their game, & we all know these Islamic gunmen are total cowards.

Paul,

"No there is nothing you can post which in anyway would touch a nerve with me"

Then what is there for which to apologize?

Hi there HASBEEN...

As a firm believer in the rule of law, and urge for a moderate, lawful response to all those who break our laws, I'm beginning to think the time has come for the average citizen to have the means in order to protect themselves !

When we have a very weak, 'left learning' Prime Minister completely in the clutches of his own hubris, who's only plan is NOT to listen to the needs of the electorate as a whole, particularly in matters of protecting ourselves and border protection, well what else can we do?

Yes HASBEEN, IS MISE, ONTHEBEACH, and all the other 'LICENSED & LAWFUL' pro-gun fraternity, I'm starting to believe you're right. If some members of the public were armed with a handgun 'perhaps' these foul, cowardly bastards in Paris, may not have caused so many civilian deaths in the concert venue !

One credible report I saw on SKY TV, suggests these cowardly slugs were casually walking among the terrified crowd, inside the venue, shooting them like 'fish in a barrel' with over a hundred innocent souls dead; and *NONE* had any means in which to defend themselves !

Bloody hell, what's wrong with our leaders, save for Tony ABBOTT, the only one who told it as it is !

o sung wu,

I am pro-honesty, pro-fact and pro-evidence. I want to see value for money in government. I abhor political correctness and the cultural Marxism that have taken over in the West.

This great man saw it all coming. Speech and transcript,

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/charltonhestonculturalwar.htm

is Mise, offensive is not necessarily upsetting, and you don't upset me, It simply shows you have ran out of argument and are prepared to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find some mud to sling. So be it. Some pornographic material is offensive to me, but its not upsetting.

p.s At least I post things that are funny at times, so my friends think. eg to ask if you are Jed Clampett (obvious your not, he's dead and you are very much alive) I don't find offensive, after all old Jed was a nice guy, and I did think you were most likely a nice bloke as well.

Paul,

Scraping the bottom of the barrel?

The immunization denier and Marrickville Man are not at the bottom of the barrel but up the top with the rest of the slime on the stagnant contents; up there with the lying leaders who use Parliamentary Privilege to besmirch honest people.

If one kiddy-fiddling Green makes all Greens kiddy-fiddlers, what does that make Catholic clergy? Or Scout Leaders? Actually, quite nice people for the most part. I spent over a decade in the Scouts and never got fiddled. Maybe I was just a particularly ugly child. Or maybe not all members of a particular share all their beliefs and opinions, and just have some beliefs in common. Cory Bernardi has a long track record of making statements on an equal level of stupidity with anti-vaccination arguments; it does not follow that all Liberals are as thick as Cory. Similarly, one member of a political party being convicted of an offence doesn't mean that all members of that party share the same criminal proclivities. Thomas John Ley MP was member of the Australian Nationalist Party, a conservative party which was one fore-runners of the Liberal Party. He was convicted of murder. This does not make all conservative politicians murderers.

Toni,

One kiddie fiddler doesn't make all Greens kiddie fiddlers etc., and a small group of terrorists doesn't make all Muslims terrorists as I'm sure you'll agree; I'm sure that you'll also agree that a few loonies with guns doesn't make all licenced Australian gun owners potential criminals,
I just wish that the Greens also possessed your insight.

Hi o sung wu, you say "As a firm believer in the rule of law, and urge for a moderate, lawful response to all those who break our laws, I'm beginning to think the time has come for the average citizen to have the means in order to protect themselves".

Well I would have agreed with you, until this last 20 years of immigration. The old punch up out the back of the pub has changed with this influx of garbage to a knife in the back, a drive by shooting, or a king hit.

While all this was happening, the old cop on the beat has disappeared. He's now a little girl, busy doing paper work for some obscure reason, back at the station. It says a great deal about how badly we have stuffed up, that it is now probably no longer safe for a cop to walk a beat in many areas of our cities.

Even the railway stations are no longer "manned". No longer able to "take care of myself", I felt threatened the last time I rode a train at night, by the yobs hanging around the station entrance. I will not do it again.

I have not even been close to a hand gun in 50 years, never felt the need, but am starting to feel a need today. They say you never loose the ability to use one accurately, I might even go to a club/commercial range, & find out.

This is one "moving with the times" I could do without.

"I spent over a decade in the Scouts and never got fiddled. Maybe I was just a particularly ugly child"

I was never in the Scouts. No access and no time - I was needed on the farm and did the work of men from an early age.

You obviously took from the Scouts and returned nothing, otherwise you would not be so uninformed and frivolous as to mislead readers about a movement that has so much to offer youth.

However I volunteered with the Scouting Movement during the membership of my own children. So I will point out what you were ignorant or deliberately silent about, which is Scouting's exemplary policy, rules and procedures affecting child protection and safety. Education departments and others have acknowledged and borrowed policy from Scouts Australia and for very good reason. See here for an example,

http://scoutsqld.com.au/about-us/child-protection-safety/

The requirement for a 'Blue Card' character check by police and others, for example, has been policy for decades.

Hi there HASBEEN...

Mate I'm confused? We've reached a time, where it seems that it's morally necessary for an individual to be armed to protect themselves. I don't mean Karate or mixed martial arts training - 'realistically' able to protect themselves. A woman or man placed on an equal footing with an assailant.

I do agree with SUSEONLINE when she says we don't want a concert venue (or similar) operating, where there's a percentage of the patrons there, who're armed with a F/A. One drinks too much, an quarrel ensues, tempers flare, then 'bang' someone's dead ? No, that would never work. It's 2015, not Dodge City back in the 1880's.

IS MISE advocates permitting ex soldiers, former police or other trained individuals, to carry a concealed weapon and if a situation presents, like that in Paris, these covertly armed patrons could perhaps countervail the overall number of victims of these killers ? That may work, provided each venue had any of these 'armed' individuals present - or would they be spread too thin?

ONTHEBEACH has for ages strongly advocated governments doing the jobs to which they've been elected and amply compensated, by our huge taxation receipts. In other words, significantly 'strengthening' our military and police. Remove all superfluous and unnecessary clerical functions from sworn members, and have those tasks allocated to appropriate public service support personnel. And in so doing rigorously mandate sworn members to once more actively engage in 'proactive policing' - back in the 'burbs'. In other words resurrect the Police 'Force' where the rule of law categorically prevails.

Introduce an enforcement model, by serving notice that zero tolerance now exists, for all strata of criminality, and any form of radicalization, religious or otherwise. I wonder would the above model be consigning us all to a life of coercion, arbitrary enforcement, and 24/7 surveillance ?

What other options do we have HASBEEN? If, as it's been suggested by some, everybody was permitted to carry a concealed F/A, I could see firefights breaking out all over our fair City of Sydney. The only winner being anarchy and terrorism?

I reckon there is a case for allowing and encouraging seasoned police officers to conceal-carry their service pistol when off duty.

Many would be happy to pay them an allowance to do it too.

I would like to see their club fees and ammunition paid for participation in shooting competition too.

They should be encouraged to be instructors at shooting clubs and be paid a small fee by the taxpayer for their contribution (instruction/courses) to public safety and good relations.

The knowledge that the young brunette in the crowd or walking alone could be armed and willing to use her service pistol is a deterrent and not just for gutless religious fundamentalist terrorists.

No sane person would expect ALL incidents to be dealt with by such volunteers, but the cowardly Bryant for example, might have lasted seconds if an armed off-duty police constable was present. Police .40S&W meets a Bryant, problem solved.

Is Mise, I have to agree with you on one thing it was DISGRACEFUL the way in which Bob Ballsup from the Shooters and Hooters Party used Parliamentary privilege to attack a local council member!

To quote you "the lying leaders who use Parliamentary Privilege to besmirch honest people." That is Bob Ballsup and Scum Bob all over.

The gun happy brigade on here are starting to show their true colors, their secret agenda, with their desire to turn Australia into a New Dodge City, with the private citizens armed to the teeth with guns! Take this one;

"police officers to conceal-carry their service pistol when off duty." Young brunette's (didn't include the blonds) in the crowd with a concealed gun ready to open fire when see see a "crime in progress". Don't feel too safe, that young brunette wont be shooting just at the " gutless religious fundamentalist terrorists" she will be given carte blanche to open fire at all and sundry, you and me.The same poster not long ago was advocating some kind of private citizens militia be formed. Is this Australia First, and Shooters Party policy? Wow, Dodge City here we come!

Paul,

References to S&Fs' MPs attacking under privilege, please.

How do you reconcile police officers being trusted with a pistol when on duty with your not trusting them to be armed when off duty?

In some country areas at the moment when one calls the police in an emergency the call first goes to area command or the nearest manned police station, the operator there then relays the problem to the local duty policeman.
He may have to get dressed if he doesn't sleep in his uniform, proceed to the locked up police station, get his pistol etc., out of the security locker, then come and see what the problem is.
Not very satisfactory; but then the Greens don't believe that the police should be armed anyway.

Bob Brown, their former Führer, advocated disarming the police and teaching the army anger management:
"I say, you chaps firing that machine gun at us; can't we have a chat about this and reach some form of consensus?"

How long, Paul, since an attempt to hi-jack an Israel passenger aircraft was made?
I seem to remember that it was a while ago and that the Israeli security blokes on board promptly shot the terrorist dead.

Just for you Is Mise, this is the gutless attack on a good citizen, and civic leader by Bob Ballsup from the ratbag Shooters and Hooters Party using Parliamentary Privilege.

SMH under the heading "Liverpool mayor Ned Mannoun returns fire at Shooters MP Robert Borsak"

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/liverpool-mayor-ned-mannoun-returns-fire-at-shooters-mp-robert-borsak-20150911-gjk5vc.html

Will Is Mise run from this one faster than Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd hot in pursuit?

The protesting Greens are strong on bikies' rights and on protecting bikies from the law, and their apposition to the Qld VLAD legislation is an example given earlier, but the authority-despising, authority-challenging Greens would never dream of supporting police and protecting them.

I am aware of many occasions where off-duty country police have responded immediately to protect the community against natural and offender-caused emergencies. The same happens in cities. If the Greens were at all honest (an impossibility), they would admit that the police role and the community's expectations of police are not limited to the hours between sign on and sign off.

Of course there is a case for allowing and encouraging seasoned police officers to conceal-carry their service pistol or a smaller version when off duty. Where the community expects police to put their lives on the line especially against these imported thugs who do not value human life it is the least we can do for those courageous police officers.

Many taxpayers would be happy to pay them an allowance to do it too.

Paul,

Run from it? Hardly, in fact I'll run with it."

Liverpool Mayor Ned Mannoun and the case of the missing alarm dividing his council"
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/liverpool-mayor-ned-mannoun-and-the-case-of-the-missing-alarm-dividing-his-council-20150718-giffvh.html#ixzz3rYkl4GJA

Makes interesting reading.

Borsak seems to be on to something.

As I said Is Mise, your running from this one faster than Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd hot in pursuit?

I'm not a defender of the Liberal Party or its members, but in this case it would seem your man Bob Ballsup from the Shooters and Hooters Party got it wrong by thinking he could score a few cheap political points by attacking this Liberal, Ned Mannoun under parliamentary privilege. There is nothing in your article which in anyway could be construed as evidence of wrong doing by Mannoun.

Now how about commenting on Ballsup and his misuse of parliamentary privilege! Run Bugs run.

There is poor old Beach, talking nonsense. claiming The Greens are in league with the bikies, where is the evidence Beach?
Like many from the extreme right Beach also favors the formation of a para military citizens militia, no doubt under the control of the right thinking people, we had such an organisation back in the 1930's The New Guard.
"Of course there is a case for allowing and encouraging seasoned police officers to conceal-carry their service pistol or a smaller version when off duty." Classic extreme right thinking, the rule of law does not apply, you rely on coppers and others of their choosing to mete out justice on the run.
If one of these off duty coppers, say that brunette you favor, was to become involved in a personal dispute with another member of the general public, and should that brunette pull out her concealed weapon and shoot dead that member of the public, what would be the outcome, a tut tut you should not have done that, as generally is the outcome when coopers kill civilians.

Paul,

Running?? Didn't you comprehend the implications of the article?

Tut, tut.

Paul1405,

You routinely ignore replies with facts and evidence that contradict your opinions, and misrepresent what others have written. Here again and there is plenty more,

<In NSW as in Qld the Greens opposed control orders to prevent gangs and gang members accused of criminal activity from associating with each other and from holding firearms and liquor licences. See here,

http://tinyurl.com/Greens-defend-gangs

Despite Greens and Labor opposition the NSW law passed and passed High Court appeal.

<NSW bikie consorting laws upheld: High Court
By Elizabeth Byrne
Updated 8 Oct 2014

The High Court in Canberra has upheld the New South Wales anti-consorting laws, which make it an offence for convicted criminals to repeatedly associate with each other.

The New South Wales Government said it was always confident the laws would hold up to the High Court's scrutiny.
..
"It is not surprising that criminals don't like the laws and wanted them overturned, but today's decision in the High Court ensures they are here to stay," Attorney-General Brad Hazzard said.

"The anti-consorting laws give police the powers they need to disrupt and dismantle criminal organisations, including outlaw motorcycle gangs.">
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-08/high-court-ruling-upholds-nsw-consorting-laws/5797786

Why do the Greens and other radical 'Progressive' leftists protect disgusting criminal gangs who standover vulnerable kids and sad druggies, and are responsible for drive-by shootings? But the deceitful, hypocritical, mendacious Greens and leftists slag the honest, hard-working, reputable citizens who DO obey the laws and pay taxes to support the ferals the Greens protect. How does that figure?
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 14 November 2015 10:35:37 AM>

OTB,

Ya gotta stick wiv yer mates!!

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Is my current understanding correct? The new Qld Premier (who's name I cannot spell), intends to either 'water down' or worse, repeal legislation that the previous Liberal government enacted, to realistically control, regulate and interdict, the criminal activities all outlaw 'Bikie Gangs' situated in the State of Queensland ?

Surely there's a mistake. The 1%er's are behind much of the illicit importation of dangerous weapons. Weapons including by not limited to, various handguns, assault weapons, sub-machine guns, 'switch blades' etc. into this country ? Further much of the standover, physical intimidation and collection activities, are undertaken by members of these Bikie gangs ?

No, I simply don't believe it. No matter how far to the 'left' a socialist leader might be, surely it's in theirs, in fact 'everybody's' interest, to completely inhibit and constrain all illegal activities perpetrated by outlaw Bikie gangs. Obviously there's been a misunderstanding somewhere?

The problem is that Labor and Greens are extreme moral relativists and have no moral compass.

The leadership and factions of both are cynical and focussed on short term self interest and treat the members as useful idiots. They even refer to their members and the public as 'punters'.

o sung wu,

When police recommended to the Qld Labor government that it keep the successful VLAD 'anti bikie' legislation they police were told by their own minister to 'go suck' - they were told they could put in a submission like everyone else and the deep-sixing of the VLAD continued unabated.

Now that the leftist 'soft on offenders' moral relativists have taken over the reins of government in Queensland the ferals are taking the opportunity to do what they do best,

<Violent street brawl at Upper Coomera this evening: Police have taken one man into custody
TANYA WESTTHORP GOLD COAST BULLETIN NOVEMBER 16, 2015 8:09PM

POLICE have swooped on a northern Gold Coast supermarket after a large street brawl broke out between armed offenders this evening.

At least five people were involved in the violent brawl outside Coles at Upper Coomera at 6.45pm.

Police say there were reports someone pulled a knife while multiple people were fighting and making threats.

One man was taken into custody and it is understood police are now tracking another offender who fled the scene.

No one was injured but police swarmed the scene following a violent day of revenge attacks across the Coast following the stabbing murder of 16-year-old Michael Brack on the weekend.

This morning, up to 30 youths stormed a Molendinar house and trashed property in response to a teen claiming he was responsible for the death of Michael.

It is not known if this incident was another retaliation Attack.>
http://tinyurl.com/nhdhttp

This is the Police Minister,
<Miller headaches continue for Qld govt

QUEENSLAND'S police minister has been accused by her own party of misleading parliament to save her from opposition scrutiny.

LABOR MPs have referred Police Minister Jo-Ann Miller to the house's Ethics Committee over "prima facie" evidence she misled the Crime and Corruption Committee...>
http://tinyurl.com/pf3jcye

Enough said?

As with many laws the devil is in the detail, that is very much the case with these anti-consorting laws. Naturally I expect the rapid right who favor a police state to show their usual gung-ho attitude when it comes to giving police unfettered powers to control society. Even the article posted by Beach contradicts itself, despite its obvious bias, firstly linking the parliamentary debate with a local public shooting, giving no detail as to why Labor and The Greens oppose this legislation, but plenty of coverage to the emotive side of the argument with words like "organised crime has spiralled out of control", that is the opinion of the writer, not a fact, but such statements appeal easily to the fears that some already hold.

Despite the legislation not being passed, the writer reports of police success with existing laws in fighting crime, quote;

"Since Operation Apollo was set up in February 2010 to target organised crime, more than 100 people have been arrested, 220 charges have been laid and 60 firearms recovered."

This raises the question, why the need for new draconian laws, if police are having great success using existing legislation.

Despite the hysteria posted by Beach there is no reference to motorcycle gangs in the legislation. Its not surprising then that the first person arrested in NSW under the new act was not a bikie, but a 21-year-old man with an intellectual disability living in north-western NSW. He was initially charged while out shopping with friends and sentenced to nine months gaol for consorting with his friends (the conviction was later overturned). Ironically, he was initially locked in the same cell as his friends … whom he was not supposed to consort with!
40% of the police consorting warnings have been directed at aboriginal women for "consorting" with partners and family members.
The law should be about balance, not simply about eroding civil liberties whiles give police unfettered powers of arrest

Paul1405, "The law should be about balance, not simply about eroding civil liberties"

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

The Greens are far more concerned about the rights of criminals than the law-abiding general public and victims of crime.

The Greens are all about protest, abusing and challenging authority and getting sensationalist headlines. If voting was voluntary the Greens would be absolutely stuffed.

Beach, given the type of extreme right totalitarian regime people such as yourself favor, there certainly would not be any room for protest parties, in fact there would be no room for protest, or any kind of progressive action. If your police force was not up to the job, I am sure that well armed citizens militia would be none too ready to take over the task.
There is nothing new in what people like yourself preach, its been around since Adolf was a boy. In Australia you would find many a kindred spirit in political parties such as One Nation and Australia First, if you haven't already done so. As for "If voting was voluntary the Greens would be absolutely stuffed." Naturally, under your favored regime there would be no need for voting, voluntary or compulsory. Given you radical views, you would make an excellent 'Minister for Public Order and Decency' under a a government led by your very own pin up gal Pauline Hanson.Then you could introduce all the draconian gun laws you like.

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Mate, I hear what you're saying and agree unconditionally ! I've always held a (private) belief, whenever the community, or our country as a whole, is confronted with a serious law and order issue; or engaged in a relatively contained war eg. Vietnam, Iraq; Afghanistan; etc., the real enemy is the politicians !

Think about it please. The coppers are trying hard to control the illegal activities of the outlaw motor cycle gangs. Instead, the Qld. government of the day are endeavoring to remove many of 'the teeth' that hitherto have made the Bikie legislation effective ? POLITICIANS!

All the military conflicts we've been involved where we've suffered many unnecessary losses, post WWll. It's because of politicians 'flip flopping' around with indecision, and Party initiated, political opposition. Instead of a strongly united, bi-partisan approach to the task.

Vietnam was a classic example. One side of Congress wanted to prosecute the war with all the military might at hand. The other side of Congress, rallied huge public support against the war, and the rest as they say, is history. The same existed here, with Liberal vs Labour ! And where were the soldiers left, between a rock and a very hard place, as well as being the proverbial meat in the sandwich ?

Out latest and most serious enemy ISIS, seemed to be better organised, and singularly, 'strongly task orientated' as evidenced by the apparent 'success' of the horror perpetrated against innocents in Paris over the weekend.

The French President has declared that a 'State of War' now exist between France and ISIS. If he's serious and I've no doubt he is, invade Syria, with the best troops you have, and completely extirpate every single ISIS operative found. Goodness knows, the French military are more than up to the task !

A man has been arrested in Sydney for having a Thompson sub-machine gun.

Informed opinion is that the gun is a fake.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-19/man-refused-bail-over-sub-machine-gun-in-bag-in-marrickville/6953370

The gun really looks to good to be true, given that they haven't been made for a number of years and most legally on offer shew plenty of signs of use.

Auto Ordnance in the USA makes a semi-automatic version but I doubt that this is one of theirs as it lacks the strengthening cross bolt in the butt, still it could be an early version.
Auto Ordnance Thompsons were legally imported into Australia in the past.
http://www.tommygunner.com/pages/guns4sale/

There is a genuine Thompson for sale on Gun Broker
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=523603999#PIC

bidding has reached $22,500 US so if anyone wants it jump in with the reserve of $41,500 US and it's yours. ($A 57,894).

Oh! there are a few stringent requirements to be met.

Is Mise,

Nearly checked to see if it was 1 April.

You are having a lend of the hoplophobes, whose nappies are already loaded.

It would be a non-shooting replica wouldn't it? Is anyone shooting a gangster movie? I never bet, but what about London to a brick on it being one of these? See below,

http://www.denix.es/en/catalogue/61/83/#.Vk16GfkrKUk

What a publicity ploy for the NSW Police though. Any changes proposed ATM? They have the media are running about, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling".

Of course a replica even a plastic one can be regarded as a firearm anyhow and penalties apply (regulations).

I wonder if those police would ever volunteer to load it with live ball ammunition and prove its 'automatic' operation before cameras? One shot and pick the bits out of the unfortunate operator?

What is wrong with you two. these are the type of weapons you want to see freely available to the general public.

"Police said they discovered a Thompson branded fully-automatic submachine gun, a clip and almost 200 rounds of ammunition in Avidov's bag."

Are you saying the coppers don't know a gun and ammunition when they see it?

There is nothing to say that the accused, Marc Avidov, does not hold a gun licence. Could even be a member of the Shooters and Hooters Party.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-19/man-refused-bail-over-sub-machine-gun-in-bag-in-marrickville/6953370

Paul,

Spreading disinformation in true Greens' style or is it just that you lack reading comprehension?

From the link that you gave, "Avidov was arrested without incident and charged with possessing an unregistered firearm, acquiring a firearm without a licence and possessing ammunition."

I don't think that he had a licence.

Just for the record the round thing is not a clip, it's a magazine, still we can't expect the media to get it right, that would take the slightest of mental effort.

It is worth saying it again for the open-minded who have only a passing knowledge of firearms that a non-firing replica is treated (and may be described!) as though it is an actual, operative firearm. That is the oddity of the regulations.

Many believe it is irresponsible of police media units to release reports about replicas and toys, describing them as though they are in fact the real thing, which they are not and scaring the daylights out of the uninformed, trusting public.

Until the police can show that rather obvious replica firing, which would be the equivalent of a toy boat competing in the Sydney to Hobart yacht race, the only 'automatic' is the media knee-jerk reaction, thanks to the police media unit who must enjoy a little publicity.

Similarly, 'bullets', cartridges etc., can be empty and fired cases. Not so long ago a paper did a monstrous beat-up on a fired .22 case that had probably fallen from a farmer's truck. A piece of lettuce would be more capable of causing harm.

G'day Is Mise, I can only assume you are still working on your response to the way Bob Ballsup used parliamentary privilege to try and score cheap political points against that fine civic minded gentleman, the Liverpool mayor Ned Mannoun. Not from my side of politics but one must feel sympathy for poor Mr Mannoun, given the mad dog attack launched on this defenseless, but morally good, gentleman from inside parliament by shooter and hooter 'Dirty' Bob Ballsup!

You asked for evidence, I supplied it, then as I predicted you ran faster from it, than Bugs Bunny with Elmer Fudd in hot pursuit.

Come on Is Mise give your opinion on Bob Ballsup's action.

Poor old Beach is fighting a rear guard action trying to minimise the 'Thompson' automatic machine gun caper as if its trivial, trying to describe the deadly weapon as "plastic", like the $2 toy gun one can purchase from a kids toy shop. Next thing you know he'll be describing it as a cardboard cutout or some such nonsense! Good try but, FAILED!

LOL, just try putting that replica on automatic and feeding some live ammunition into it.

Now go back and try to understand what I wrote, which admittedly would be a lot easier for you if you had any idea of the firearms regulations.

Beach, there is no evidence that this gun is a replica, and not capable of mowing down dozens of innocent people. You took it upon yourself to make such a claim, no doubt to minimize the seriousness of the whole episode, and guns in the community in general. Public safety is paramount!

A timely reminder;

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE!...PEOPLE WITH GUNS KILL PEOPLE!

Paul,

The gun might be real but because of its appearance many people are doubtful.
It simply looks to good to be true and the one in the pic certainly looks to be in very new condition, hence the thoughts that it is a replica.
Given that the bloke arrested is known to be a bit of a con artist then this may well have been intended as a 'theatrical' prop to some scheme.

Time and the Court will tell.

Hi Guys...

When I was working, if I was confronted with this gun, or similar, I'd have no hesitation whatsoever, but to resort to my own F/A in order to protect my own life, or the life of another ! Furthermore I would respectfully suggest every copper facing exactly the same set of circumstances, wouldn't hesitate to act in a similar manner.

There's case law upon case law here and abroad, where police have confronted a replica weapon, and believed their life's been in mortal danger, and have shot and killed an individual brandishing such replicas. There's no doubt it's regrettable. In every case, the Coroner's verdict, has come down on the side of police, provided they've acted in good faith. If a replica weapon is offered (F/A or otherwise)in such circumstances, and the police 'honestly believes' he's facing a real F/A or other weapon capable of causing death or serious injury - sadly, it's 'game, set and match'.

Anyone foolhardy enough to brandish such a replica, is an utter fool !

And gentlemen, who do you think is the 'REAL' victim ? The real victim is the police officer who took the life of the individual brandishing the replica weapon. The clamouring of the media, together with usual gooder's, baying for the copper's blood, is absolutely disgusting. Many of whom have never faced an iota of risk in their entire lives, consequently they wouldn't have a fundamental clue !

Paul1405, "there is no evidence that this gun is a replica"

Where is the evidence it is fully operable and not a replica? They are described the same by publicity-seeking senior police. That deliberately misleads the public and unnecessarily causes fright.

In the unlikely event that it is capable of working without blowing the operator's hand off on the first shot, doubtless the police would be firing it to obtain rifled projectiles and fired cases to exclude it from crimes. The test firing would be a publicity event for tabloids.

Again, London to a brick that the police will NOT be saying that it was test fired. Guess why not? Too easy, it is only a replica.

However, if it did operate that would prove the concerns of the associations representing licensed citizens, specifically that the so-called 'Howard' laws are ill-directed, ineffectual and DO NOT deter or control offenders, who are importing and manufacturing firearms.

Paul1405, "You took it upon yourself to make such a claim, no doubt to minimize the seriousness of the whole episode, and guns in the community in general"

LOL What absolute cr@p. You are notorious as OLO's great spinner of yarns and fabricator. There wouldn't be a post of yours where you weren't fabricating some obvious BS about someone.

My interest as always is in facts and evidence advising policy. Where administration of firearms laws is concerned, I do NOT believe that the public interest in a democracy is served where police administer laws and may even amend the laws through their interpretation without reference to Parliament.

Paul 1405, "Public safety is paramount!"
Why then did the Greens demand, against police advice, the shafting of Queensland's successful Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Act 2013? The Greens prove they are soft on criminals and do not give a rats about public safety

o sung wu,

The highly reputable and conservative* SSAA and other associations representing the many thousands of law-abiding, licensed citizens (many of whom are police) would agree with you concerning offenders using copy weapons to commit offences.

Just to reiterate the previous point made by me, non-operable copies are described and treated the same by the available regulations. Again, to be very blunt, the offence is the same and so is the penalty.

However I do not believe that senior grandstanding police are serving the interests of the public nor the police force where they show and describe toys, inoperable copies, Daisy air rifles, .22 'squirrel' guns and the like as 'high powered', 'assault rifles' and so on and often describing two or more as a deadly 'cache'.

There is a lot of misleading and misrepresenting going on. Ask seasoned police who would very much prefer to have competent, forthright management, instead of some of the 'politically sensitive' that are about.

Australia has porous borders, fix that! The Australian federal government has been importing migrants who resolve even minor disputes with weapons, fix that! -Just to take two examples, that the Greens would oppose naturally because the Greens are about social reengineering and headlines, not public safety.

*as in not prone to outlandish claims and posturing like the headline hunting Greens

G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

Mate you know what the bosses are like, all constrained by sensitive political correctness, and with a 'Dudley do Right' mindset towards everything ! Skippy's OK as a bloke but...? As well, the media have a real lot to answer for too, in these matters ? All I can say I'm glad I've retired !

o sung wu,

Police are not responsible for those who 'lead' them and coincidentally kept them with 'wheel' guns for years, while the drug-dealing criminal gangs had their imported, most recent model Glocks.

Cop this:
In a public interview a Commissioner of Police, Victoria (since retired) described a very simple, most commonly registered bolt action single shot long arm (a Savage brand) thus,

"I think it is some sort of automatic, I don't think it's a machine gun but it's certainly a high powered weapon and I'm not an expert on guns."

Say what?!

The YouTube video has since been taken down.

When it is remembered that one of the most basic requirements of a firearms licence (police are excepted from licensing and don't have to have one for their work) is the immediate recognition of the various types of firearm, it is remarkable that a Police Commissioner who was at the time responsible for the administration, policy advising and enforcement of firearms regulations could not identify the most common legal, registered, rifle and SINGLE SHOT, bolt action.

Or should we believe there was intent to make it scary and dangerous, to mislead listeners? What would be his motivation to do that? Politics? To please his political masters?

Bless the stout-hearted men and women who were, or are still in the job (police) and did/do their best to protect the public, largely from the imported immigration mistakes of gutless, self-serving, globe-trotting politicians.

Bless the inimitable retired Victorian Police Commissioner, Christine NIXON, daughter of the highly respected Ross NIXON former high ranking NSW police officer, who reached almost legendary status before he took retirement.

She chose to visit the beauty parlour while most of Victoria was 'burning up' during the worst bush fires in recorded Victorian history, with much loss of life. Ms NIXON was roundly critized at the Victorian Royal Commission into the Bush Fires, I had later heard. And why not, as Police Commissioner she should've been right there with the other government executive decision makers during such an emergency !

OTB, there's an old saying in the job - Commissioners come, Commissioners go, and all we're required to do, is clean up their mess, after the bastards have gone ! Sad eh ?

o sung wu,

You keep reviving old memories, Ross Nixon, in my book, was a top bloke.
Up there also were Barney Ross and Col Leatherbarrow.

On the practical firearms side it would have been hard to beat Jack Christie, Police Armourer or his side kick Karl (forgotten his name) who was a craftsman of the highest order.
I once had the pleasure of using a prewar Walther "Olympia" .22 Target Pistol (owned by the NSW Police Dept) that Karl had tuned up. It had the crispest trigger imaginable.

Agree with you on the hazards and consequences of waving replicas around.
However I think that it was a mistake to ban replica pistols, crims were using them and the Govt. banned their sale and possession, so the crooks went back to using real pistols.

Beach, you spend all your time on here attacking the Greens, progressives, feminists, Stalinist, trotskyists, any leftyists you can think of including former PM's Rudd and Gillard, who were hardly left at all. You even ran a long campaign attacking the Fabian Society. Now its the Labor government in Queensland you so despise, always trying to erroneously associate them and the Greens with bikie gangs, and you have the gall to claim I am "notorious as OLO's great spinner of yarns and fabricator. There wouldn't be a post of yours where you weren't fabricating some obvious BS about someone." come come my dear friend is the pot calling the kettle black.

From your less than advantageous point somewhere in the back blocks of Queensland your pontificate on a police operation in Marrickville NSW. Calling the machine-gun discovered a replica, trying to refute what the police are saying, to quote the ABC news " Police said they discovered a Thompson branded fully-automatic submachine gun, a clip and almost 200 rounds of ammunition in Avidov's bag." Yet despite the police who are there, you offer a different interpretation, one that minimises the whole affair.

To answer your question "Where is the evidence it is fully operable and not a replica?" Experienced police officers on the ground, on the spot. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Paul,

It seems strange to many that an apparently minor crook would be in possession of a gun that could be worth over 50,000 of our dollars.
The appearance of the gun, it's simply to new.
The news keeps mentioning a clip; where is it?
One news story mentions shotgun rounds but not Thompson ammo another doesn't mention shotgun but says 200 rounds, who's right?

If the media can get so many simple things wrong in such a short story how do you know that they are quoting the police correctly?

Paul1405,

Weren't you one of the prolific posters who was always going on about politics, a real expert, but you denied that any Labor politician was a Fabian, or that Fabianism even existed.

Yet for years before and after Whitlam spoke about his conversion to Fabianism after becoming PM, senior left politicians and especially Labor have publicly avowed their Fabianism aka 'Progressives' aka International Socialism. You mentioned Rudd and Gillard, inferring they were not Fabians yet both made such declarations, were forever going on about 'progressivism' and spoke regularly at Fabian knees-ups.

On numerous occasions I gave you links to videos publicly available on YouTube, of for example, Julia Gillard declaring her Fabianism.

Where politicians espouse a political creed, in this case Fabianism aka 'Progressivism'(sic, it is the opposite, regressivism), aka International Socialism, it would be foolish not to take them seriously.

You are in denial as usual.

tbc..

continued..

Replica Thompson gun
The only thing 'fully automatic' about that replica is the BS of headline-hunting Greens.
You have already been told that the regulations foolishly equate what the police can deem as 'guns' - 'realistic-looking' toys, inoperable fakes (that 'Thomspon' replica), 'Airsoft', water pistols and even pistols fashioned out of soap as real working firearms.

Heaven help a child who removes that now compulsory red painted end on a toy, some troublemaking, 'offended' leftist could beat it as a 'gun threat' and have the men in black arrive to confront the kid with real, loaded and cocked semi-automatic weapons.

There are plenty of photos of a particular Deputy Commissioner of Police from another State who regularly hits the national and international news out of his habit of standing in front of Airsoft toys and clapped-out 'Daisy' air rifles declaring them to be dangerous 'Assault', 'high-powered' and 'sniper' rifles.

To conclude, police can take advantage of sloppy, over-the-top regulations to describe practically anything as a firearm, even implying as in the subject case that a replica could be 'automatic'. It is 'automatic' what that is the question. LOL

However, copy or real it still proves that the Howard-inspired 'gun control' doesn't control or even mildly deter law-breakers. Gun control is aimed at bans and confiscations from ordinary reputable, licensed citizens. It only inconveniences the law abiders. Which is what totalitarian leftists such as yourself are about. The lunar Greens are always going on about the rights of criminals and disarming Australia. Why? -Along with that Soros organisation mentioned earlier, which you of course ignored, right?

G'day there IS MISE...

Those who worked in ballistics and the armoury did stealing work, both in the forensic arena, and keeping the troops personal issue F/A serviceable and in sound working order. Not unlike what you did IS MISE, when you worked with military small arms ? Anyway the days when most of us were issued and carried the mod 10/3, there were all manner of blokes in the job who fancied themselves as 'amateur F/A expert' who would (against regulations) pull the the side plate off, in an endeavour to tune their F/A and their mates F/A as well !

Their main object for modification was to remove a coil or two from the 17 coil rebound spring, ostensible to lighten the trigger pull a little. Alternatively they'd file a bit off the cams, both the hammer seat and/or the rebound seat, again to make the index of the trigger pull 'smoother' ? Fortunately they could do very little to the mod 10's main spring, but some members were issued with mod 36's which has a coil mainspring ! So these 'experts' would remove a couple of coils from there as well !! Some wondered why they experienced a misfire occasionally ? Thank God for the police armourers otherwise ??

One of the best 'type' reference libraries I've seen, was the AFP's in Canberra. Headed up by Det Sgt Ian (Herbie) PRIOR retd., they had over two thousand different 'shorts', rifles and shotguns. Naturally being the Feds, everything Customs confiscated, ultimately ended up in the custody of the AFP, as well as other weapons seized elsewhere. Consequently the blokes who worked there, enjoyed a real smorgasbord of F/A's they may've wished to 'examine, assess and evaluate', not dissimilar to your Walther Olympia .22 target, you shot, courtesy of the NSW Wallopers awhile back.

O sung wu,

Early on in my career I got to know the police armourers in Sydney as the .303 Lee-Enfield was the issue rifle in the police as well as in the army.
To get spare parts the police had to indent to their stores, who, via the Top, sent a request to the Master General of Ordnance for the required bits, the request then went down the line etc., and eventually the parts would be delivered to the police armoury.

So much simpler and cost effective for him to get on the 'phone to the boss armourer at the nearest Base Workshop (in Sydney, 2 Base Wksp. RAEME) and tell him what he wanted.
Young and very junior armourer who often goes to town is the courier; no paper work etc.
It was a two way street, of course but within the limits of being lawfully sensible.

Now, now. Beach, slow down for a moment, that last spray can't be good for the palpitations, yours, not mine.

On the one hand we have the NSW police, detectives from the Firearms Squad and officers from the Tactical Operations Unit, who have examined this weapon first hand and in detail and have concluded it to be a genuine Thompson branded fully-automatic submachine gun. Then on the other hand we have the anonymous OLO poster and all round X-spurt onthebeach, who has not been within a bulls roar of the said weapon, nah, he's not been within a 1000Km of the gun, yet he has concluded from I don't know what, that the thing is a replica.
Beach, could the explanation be that all these coppers are Fabians?

To answer your questions. "You (Paul1405) denied that any Labor politician was a Fabian, or that Fabianism even existed." No, what I don't do is go over the top (like you) about the Fabian Society and its members, for all you know, I could be a member myself.

Weren't you (Paul1405) one of the prolific posters who was always going on about politics. Unless I'm on the wrong forum. the 'Macrame for Beginners' Forum I thought this forum was about politics.

Prolific, your not doing too bad yourself, having clocked up 5,000 posts in 3 years, compared to you I'm only a casual poster clocking up about 4,000 in 5 years. LOL

Paul believes the ABC news!!

What and where is the clip?

Paul1405, "detectives from the Firearms Squad and officers from the Tactical Operations Unit, who have examined this weapon first hand and in detail and have concluded it to be a genuine Thompson branded fully-automatic submachine gun"

'Genuine' you say? Bollocks. 'Automatic'? More bollocks. It is a replica with 'Thompson' on it, as a copy-gun would have.

So provide your evidence of authenticity from a credible source. Not just some reporter saying it has the name on it and without the serial number and other information that would be displayed on the genuine article.

Or lets see the police armourer taking his life in his own hands and firing the thing. LOL

You may find that the reports are that the replica has 'Thompson' marked on it, which is not unusual for a replica.

Hi IS MISE...

Ah mate the old days were far simpler, and more effective in every way. Full Co-Op between the coppers and the Military made far more sense, and when you think of it both organisations had a similar charter, and essentially run on very similar lines.

When I did my three years penance at the Police Academy as an Instructor, ex military (Army, Navy & Air Force) recruits were far more amenable and acquiescent towards formal training. Generally by their attitude, personal presentation and discipline, in fact it made it so much easier to educate them specifically, than many of the people straight out of University.

Furthermore they knew how to play the game, keep their ears and eyes open and their mouths shut, during the formal component of their training, rather than trying to be an academic 'smart arse' like a few of the Uni graduates tended to be ? Moreover, they generally made pretty good street coppers as well, most of them. Not in any way denigrating or maligning the efforts of the Uni people, many performed admirable, but generally speaking the ex military folk made pretty good coppers, despite any apparent lack of formal tertiary education.

Though in promotion terms, it was generally accepted that the more educated people were those who managed to circumvent that difficult impediment or hurdle, from Sergeant to Inspector, who were 'fast tracked' up the rank structure. Personally, I managed sergeant, and sergeant is where I remained ! And to be quite truthful, I was reasonably content, retiring after a bit over 32 years of service.

Beach, still claiming to be a X-spurt from your vantage point a 1000km away.

As you would say "pull the other leg its got bells on it!"

Oh Is Mise if its not in a Murdoch fish wrapper then its not to be believed. The same story was in the SMH and Limited News and a host of other publications.

Paul1405,

YOU say it is genuine. So prove it.

Paul,

Where is the clip?
I saw what looked to be a pair of scissors but no clips.

Now that we have Muslims in our Armed services counseled by a radical Mufti who wants shariah, and allegiance first to Allah; I would not be surprised some rednecks might believe in rearming.

Denix Tommy Gun NonFiring Replica Thompson Gangster Prop Costume Submachine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hf8xEmkuJM

Now compare with this 'automatic', that was taken into custody,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-19/man-refused-bail-over-sub-machine-gun-in-bag-in-marrickville/6953370

Check the fore grip for instance.

Look familiar guys? LOL

Easy to understand why the media would be egg-beating a story, but why the police? -Unless it is to suit their political masters.

Is Mise
O sung wu,

We actually had these US 'Specials' in the 'Toolboxes' of our UH-1s along with
a lot of other 'unmentionables'
So I have used these .45 chatterboxes and I didn't like them.
Now to this current discussion.
What you see is a replica produced in the US. You can't see the "stick" because
it is a drum type which slides in from the side
If you look carefully you can see the drum to the left'
Now from memory I cannot ever recall seeing a front timber grip handle on their
standard issue weapon, it would nave been a real pain in the arse to hold the
barrel at firing level over a wall or foxhole.
What you are seeing is the replica made for the public of the 1930s FBI and
mobsters weapon of choice.

How conceited of you Beach, demanding I produce evidence of authenticity of this dangerous illegal weapon. I suspect you would not know a Thompson fully-automatic submachine gun if you fell over one. Most likely the closest you have ever come to a submachine gun is watching re-runs of 'The Untouchables' with Robert Stack as Eliot Ness on late night TV.

Can't you read!
To answer your question "Where is the evidence it is fully operable and not a replica?" Experienced police officers on the ground, on the spot. Where is your evidence to the contrary?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 21 November 2015 6:07:53 AM

Poor old Is Mise, still having problems with your water pistol, I see, like a demented galah, incessantly repeating;

Where is the clip? Where is the clip? Where is the clip?

I'll tell you, where is the clip;
Bob Ballsup got it, and he is going to use it to slag off some poor unsuspecting citizen under parliamentary privilege.

Josephus might have hit the nail on the head; " I would not be surprised some rednecks might believe in rearming" How about it rednecks, are you?

Paul,

If the reporting is accurate, then where is the clip?
You tell us.

Chriss.

I got the opportunity to fire them a few times when doing a bit of testing with RAAF armourers, and I didn't like them either; I found that the back blast from ejection somehow hit m y right ear, even though ejection is to the side.
The Owen was a far better gun.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000 & IS MISE...

Well both of you two gentleman are well up on me, I've never even handled a Thompson Sub-Gun let alone fire the damn thing ? I would've thought firing the .45ACP round would be more noticeable in recoil, then your standard 9mm Sub ? Believe it or not, I rather liked the good ol' reliable Uzi, it 'felt' solid, and had reliability in spades.

Though these days the felt recoil of a Diana .177 would probably knock me A over T ! IS MISE I realise you're a fraction older then me and yet you still regularly hunt with centre fire stuff. Chris are you still active with F/A's ? I don't believe you've ever mentioned it, I understand from previous contributions you're very across Computers etc. Myself, I'm so bloody feeble these days, should I fall I'd probably stay down for the count ?

My good mate ONTHEBEACH, is another very active bloke around my age (mid 70's I think?), I wish I had even a fifth of the energy and commitment of you three ? Whinge, whinge, whinge...sorry fellas.

Is Mise,
o sung wu,
Thank God for the Owen, That was a real man's tool. no matter what you did they kept on firing
and if you happened to be within 50 or 60 yards you went down. In Vietnam they were gradually
replaced by the F1. The Owen like its big brother the Bren had character.
o sung wu
Totally deactivated now, got all the old age problems and most of my mates have dropped
of the perch in the last year. The only thing about ANZAC Day now is the ever growing dip in
battalion numbers. I do a bit of Vwork with the RSL Paws section mainly making sure the kids being
deployed remember to write up every medical incident.
It makes it a lot easier to get them ongoing treatment
when the come home and pensions where needed.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Yeah, the old F1 was welcomed with mixed reviews by most in the Rifle Coys, personally I reckon they weren't too bad, and they could accommodate a sweet little bayonet as well. If memory serves me correctly the F1 was wholly modeled on the Owen anyway so no wonder it proved pretty successful. Apparently many of the 'experts' didn't favour a top loader mag. but it seemed to work OK better than the Sterling L2 with it's feed from the LHS. No doubt it functioned great, but as you'd appreciate when moving through thick scrub, the side mag. caught on brush etc, where the F1 you could hold the weapon slightly up and back thus avoiding catching the mag. on top.

Chris your sage advice through the RSL to many of the younger Vets now returning home, must be greatly valued by them and theirs. All we got upon our return, was vilification and abuse rather than a hand of friendship after we got home ? It's really good to hear how things have now changed, since the travesty and perversion of the Vietnam era.