Listening to Scott Morrison today, he said we have to give people an incentive to get off welfare and into the work force.

YOU ARE KIDDING!

It's about time governments grew some balls and took a hard line approach to this, and many other issues that suck the public purse dry.

Shame on you for being such a limp dick minister on this.

Not as limp as Labor, at least the Government wanted to with hold the dole from under 25's for 6 months but who is stopping that oh yes limp labor.

Put the blame where it really belongs.

With unemployment at 6.2% it is not the right time or the right policy for any reforms in the way of stopping people from registering for dole money.

When you have employers lining up at the door of centrelink to offer employment, you may have a show of implicating dole reforms.
All you are going to do now is push more people onto the streets and cause mass poverty.

Kids going from school to the dole office is normal practice as that is where known jobs are available. To make it harder for kids to not go to centrelink, is where Morrison is wrong, It is a failing of govt;

Morrison is saying, instead of going to the dole office they should be going to work. How can that happen. By not allowing kids to go to the dole office, would save money for the govt; that is the only thing he is right about.

There is no jobs to be had, his ramblings are his Conservative leanings, and not his wisdom. It will be interesting to see how he can explain his plan with cross examination.

No senate would knowingly allow changes that put the young at risk of poverty or homelessness, without any form of a chance.

Rehctub,

What are your suggestions for Morrison? Calling him names won't do it. As for the 'public purse', surely getting people off welfare will help there?

Malcolm Turnbull says, “I am an activist but a thoughtful and considered activist,” Mr Turnbull said.
“Decisions on reform will be expeditious but not rash.”

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/prime-minister-malcolm-turnbull-chairs-mini-economic-summit-in-canberra/story-fns0jze1-1227551768183

Malcolm Turnbull was around during the Howard government. Not rash that is for sure.

I wonder how long it will take for Australian Prime Minister Turnbull (if ever) to lead stimulus of Treasury resources required for innovative management of oceans and life supporting ecosystems?
No nation can afford to manage whole oceans but they have to be managed, urgently.

There is need for international resources, new resources for new ecosystem management that is required.
New resources for the task will stimulate national economies.
Nations worldwide require water ecosystem management, massive benefits for the steel and plumbing industries for example.

There is need for action instead of words and promises and more talk talk talk.

I am trying to do my bit instead of just talking.
The following URL leads to a real present day national and international opportunity to stimulate the agriculture and ore mining and steel industries, while at the same time caring for the oceans and seafood dependent people.

But will PM Turnbull take interest and lead his Australian government agencies to help secure IMF and WB real economic stimulus, for example via this export productive NQA project? (copy and paste maybe)

https://ozcrowd.com/campaigns/nqa-water-infrastructure/#.VgyMSPmqqkp

Morrison is an evasive talker, he has trouble explaining what his waffle means. Turnbull was just listening and I presume sizing up Morrison on radio this morning.

He doesn’t know what it is that he wants to say but he wants consensus. My impression of this bloke is not all that good. He talked for probably 30 minutes and said nothing, when prompted again , he gave another load of waffle.

SCOTT MORRISON: Said Well, I'm interested in having a set of policies that you can actually implement, that are going to get the support of the Australian people and support of the Australian Parliament and where you can build a consensus around those things based on the Australian people knowing that if you do this, they'll be better off and that they'll be better able to deal with the changes and challenges in the economy and that we can diversify our economy because that is critically important for us as a nation, then they're all good reforms but a reform is only as good as its implementation and that it actually happens.

Members of the Liberal party are leaving in droves since Turnbull deposed a lame duck PM.

Reform summit is on to bury the Abbott era for good.

Rechtub,

Well come on. Tell us what Morrison should be doing that would please you. I would have thought that, when you start a thread, you would have had some opinions on your own OWN subject! You've had all day to think of something. Making distasteful remarks about Morrison's genitalia, which I'm absolutely sure you know nothing about, just doesn't cut the mustard, apart from lowering the tone of OLO. Tell us, why should Morrison not be encouraging people off the dole into work.

Doog,

I didn't hear the interview, but politicians can't always talk in slogans - they upset that brilliant public speaker, Bill Shorten. Now, Morrison might well be a waffler in his new job. But the last time I heard him interviewed on the 7.30 Report, he was very short, sharp and shiny when he said that we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. Did you ever think that you would hear a treasurer saying that about his own government?

Turnbull is the real waffler, and he is also a hypocrite. Did you see the re-run of his blah when the Rudd/ Gillard business was in full swing? It's OK when he does it, though.

ttbn,Unfortunately I have a job, so sorry if I can't respond as quickly as you woukd like.

getting them off the dole is not the problem, having to find ways to encourage them off is my beef.

Step one is to make the dole less desirable, you do this by taking away the cash as this will make recipients more egar to get a job.

Doog, there are jobs out there, but ozzies won't take them, or the unions won't let them because of what they call underpayment.

In desperate times a jobs a job and while I don't condone what 711 has done, the result will be a lot of students who find themselves in a strange country with no money.

The dole is a privilege, but remarks like that of Morrison just reinforce the fact that it's a way of life for some.

Rehctub,

Sorry. I often forget that everyone is not retired.

I totally agree that the dole should be made less desirable. But you said that: "he said we have to give people an incentive to get off welfare and into the work force".

Then you let fly at him. Isn't he going to do what you think he should (and I think should be done)? I think I can be forgiven for thinking that you were really angry with Morrison. Perhaps you left out some information about what he said? And given what has been going on up until now, Morrison might take a very hard line. After all, anything would be a hard line after what has been going on.
To recap, I agree with you 100%. And, maybe, Morrison would too.

I also agree with your response to doog. In Adelaide, most taxi drivers are Indian immigrants. Australians don't want to drive taxis. Young people seem to think that they are entitled to a job befitting their degree or whatever. They can't get a job they want, and they refuse to do anything else that seems to be below their qualifications. They are the ones who should be flicked off the dole and forced to take whatever jobs are available; and there are jobs perfectly adequate for providing board, clothing and the necessities of life untilsh something better comes along. When I was between jobs years ago, I shovelled out the contents of a sewerage pond, and collected rubbish bins for a while.

Again, sorry for my impatience. I really must try harder to curb it

The dole should be made MORE desirable - not less.

The correlation between the money one earns through formal employment and one's actual contribution to the well-being of others, is very weak.

Many paid-jobs today do more damage than good and the ones who earn more money, use it to consume more, take up more resources and produce more pollution.

Instead, those who are willing to live on the frugal income called "dole", should be considered as heroes for sacrificing their comfort and luxuries.

There are many ways to contribute to the overall happiness of others which do not and need not involve the formal act of exchanging money for goods and services.

Too many people waste too much time - theirs and others' in the procedural wasteland of Centerlink including the pretence to look for paid-work, preventing them from going out and doing good things for themselves, their families and their community.

There is no shortage of food in Australia, or clothing or even of adequate housing (away from big cities, where formal jobs are to be found), in fact there is so much wastage because most people are time-poor, so nothing would go wrong or missing if say 30%-40% of the population will go on the dole, especially those currently in the public-service who are paid at least 10 times over to harass us. Moving them to the dole would be a gain to the tax-payer, not a loss.

ttbn, the part that annoyed me was him saying "we have to give them incentives.....

No we don't, we need to force them out of their way of life. I'm not talking about genuine unemployed people who are actively seeking work, but, getting out of bed when you feel like it, or being drugged up are not examples of actively seeking work.

Apart from no cash, a mandatory drug and alcohol testing souls be mandatory for long term unemployed as they should present themselves as 'ready for work' at least five out of seven days a week.

We either use a big stick now, or a huge stick latter as passagers are no longer affordable.

Perhaps we need an immediate ban on 457's and a work for the dole for all the jobs they do including fruit picking.

Butch
Why react to Morrison’s waffle, as I said Morrison said nothing. You are only assuming what Morrison said.

You say there are jobs, but no one wants wants them, and unions won’t let them.

Underpaying people to work is not an option. No one wants them, well there is a case for it to be compulsory as a first stop to get workers, if there is jobs out there as you say.

What does Morrison mean by “incentive to get of the dole “ So what does he mean, he did not say how.

TTb Ok” we have a spending problem not a revenue problem” But when cross examines as to what to do about it he could not answer the question. And you say “ short sharp and shiny.” That is not an answer

Slavery is illegal. Even work for the dole is calculated at the going rate. What is the rate for fruit picking.

The only grapes that are picked by hand now are table grapes.
Oranges and other fruit’s are paid by the Bin .
Manual hand picking of vegetables and fruit is limited to what it was years ago.

Employers are shoving all the training onto govt; now, and then they want to be subsidized for taking them on. It’s easier to get someone on a 457 visa than to train anybody. Abbott’s FTA leaves the door wide open for Chinese workers to infiltrate Australia. SO there is quite a lot of tidying up to do, before any kind of blaming of anyone on the dole.

Unless we have investment the job situation is not going to change. Some investments of 60% of GDP was happening when Labor was in, since then it dwindled to just 16% no one was about to trust Abbott.

Investment will create jobs, so get on with it.

Business and consumer confidence took a dramatic turn for the better as soon as Turnbull took over, and that is what is needed. So now we need rational policies to back it up with and get this nation moving. Albeit with thousands and thousands of pending unemployed in the motor industries. So you have a hard deal blaming persons on the dole when unemployment is programmed into the system.

Coal is stuffed so forget it, the world does not want your dirty fuel any more. Solar, Wind and Wave power is the way of the future, and create tens of thousands of jobs. It will be interesting to see Morrison’s solution to dole recipients when he thinks of it of course, all we have at the moment is a "Heading " which can’t be explained.

Rechtub,

Yes, I'm all for the "big stick" method. Make that a baseball bat. There has been too much talk about "getting" people off the dole, and the bludgers know that it's not likely to happen. They should be PUT of the dole and PUT to work. In Singapore, nobody gets money for doing nothing; work is FOUND for people, and they are put to it. Little chance of that here with our new Left-wing PM, though.

No more 457 visas or immigration of any sort until all Australians who CAN work ARE working.

Doog,

You say that "they don't know what to do". OK, but it has only just been admitted by a brand new treasurer that they are spending too much of our money, and they need to be given some time to act. Mind you, I am as sceptical as you are that they WILL act. We have been conned to many times by politicians that we now have to see it before we believe it.

Empty words or slogans do not work, Abbott showed you how not to treat people. You must talk substance. So Morrison has an idea, but as yet we don’t know what it is. That is fantastic.

TTbn What does your big stick consist of.
This is Australia and not Singapore there is no comparison in the slightest.

We have a welfare system and we have pensions. We need both of those systems because the govt; does not provide free housing, free public transport, or free food, as some other countries do not have welfare or pensions they supply the lot, including paid employment in govt; owned businesses, for those that turn up, at a rate of 1.50 / day with no tax payable, your eldest daughter is responsible for their parents, grandparents and younger siblings welfare. That is why they have prostitution on mass.

This being Australia we do not have that option, so without workable policy you are stuck with the dole.

You are all talking of a "Business as Usual" environment.
It is not like that anymore. The problem is the politicians either do
not understand or deliberately don't want know what is going on.
What I am saying here is the world situation. Australia is on the
better side of the problem.

It has all changed, the world debt burden has become so great that the
interest charge on borrowing plus the rising cost of energy has eaten
all the GDP. The politicians and economists keep talking up growth.
However growth is declining everywhere.

This means governments are between a rock & a hard place.
They cannot increase handouts and they cannot increase tax.
In fact they are being forced into reducing handouts. This will be
a real wakeup call when the lenders of last resort refuse further loans.
We are all going to follow Greece, one or two at a time.

However there is a financial crisis on the way and when it comes we
will have no choice but to operate like Greece is currently adopting.
In Greece the barter trade with officially approved local currencies
are being used. A district has its own currency and you are given a
starting amount and you get paid for work that you do for someone
in the local money and you use it to buy your food in the town.

This is similar to the Totnes Pound in the UK.

Get rid of any debt you have as banks etc will be scrambling for
anything of value in lieu of payment.
We might have a year to get our house in order according to the
experts in this sort of thing. No one seems to know for sure as China
has complicated it all due to their shadow banking.

Another tip, do not have more than $250,000 in any bank.
The government guarentees that amount in any approved place.
Wespac and St George bank are considered one organisation so check
your building society etc.

http://www.apra.gov.au/adi/pages/adilist.aspx

Cont;
I said:In Greece the barter trade with officially approved local
currencies are being used.

I might have that wrong, it might be that the currencies are approved
with a wink & a nod.

Bazz There is nothing wrong with our GDP. Instead of creating employment they are cutting costs to suite the unemployment, and creating more unemployment.

You have been talking to witch doctors again. Grease is a basket case that is their problem. It has nothing to do with here.

Morrison made statements like he learned from Abbott, but he could not explain what he said. To much of that and Turnbull will give him the arce.

Abbott is behaving himself ,he doesn’t want to rock the boat.
They are still getting their thoughts together, so you have to be weary of making statements that you can not back up. Or else you will get cut to ribbons by the media, and so they should.

Doog,

There is a comparison between Australia and Singapore - In Australia you can get money for doing nothing; in Singapore you have to work for it.
The "big stick" is: Here's a job that you able to do. You will take this job. If you do not take this job, you will not have any money live on because your dole money has been/stopped/will be stopped on (date).

Just because a person thinks that a job is below his or her dignity or educational standards should not mean that the taxpayers need to pay him or her for doing nothing while the "right" job comes along.

doog, as I said Australia is on the better side of the problem but
all countries are going the same way, just that we are starting later
than others. There has been a credit/debt crunch coming and I had
a talk recently with an economist I know and he understands very well
what is happening but he had no idea that there was a parallel risk
with fuel costs running alongside the risk he was aware of.

When I explained the problems that the oil majors were having in
getting a return on their exploration and development expenditure,
he understood immediately. He could see the implications and understood
why Shell sold its interest in Woodside.
Note that Shell has abandoned its Alaska drilling program due to
poor results. That cost $billions.
Over the last couple of years the majors have spent $trillions with
negligible return.

I suggest you expand your reading into the areas the politicians
are trying to avoid.

Not onlybthat doog but our government is also committing additional funding for the likes of domestic violence, additional refugees and that's on top of the other spending. They are committing money we simply dont have.

The only thing that saved us from Labors wastefest was the mining boom. Thevtrouble was that they were wastingnit as fast as it came in.

Those days are over and just one person on the dole deliberately is one we can't afford.

The time for talk, like we need to encourage people off the dole, is over. Time to act Mr Morrison, not talk softly.

Yes, you are right Rehctub, there is a real case of the cupboard being empty.
We are running on credit as is everyone else and we are all trying to borrow more money to pay the interest.
My economist friend believes that the next crash will occur in the next
year or two. He believes the big banks will collapse and this time
no government will be able to bail them out.

His worse case is we will wake up one morning and find the biggest US
banks and Deutscher Bank and possibly the Bank of England have suspended trading.

Now, I agree that is a way out scenario, but he believes that they
have put themselves into this situation having learnt nothing from the GFC.

Just wondering, all you tough guys, who would feed the children of these 'dole-bludgers' if we got tough (like real manly guy Morrison) and simply stopped their dole payments?

Also, where do you think these dole-less people would get money to live on?
I'm thinking they would wander around to all the working guy's houses and steal their belongings to sell and pay for their food/drugs/booze.
Or they may just go straight to violent robberies against people in the streets.

I am sure we could come up with a better plan of action than just cutting these people off? I like the idea of food vouchers or cards that can only buy groceries or other living essentials.
Of course, if they don't have some money for smokes or booze, then we are back to square one again....burglary.

Suze, it's not about no money, it's about how this 'tax payer gift' is distributed because as it stands, serial dole blugers kids are often missing out already, thanks to the fact that we pay them in cash. A restricted debit card woukd go a long way towards solving this.

Nobody should be cut off as such, unless of cause they are a single person living in a shack having no intention of finding or even looking fir a job. Feed them, dont reward them I say.

Baz, I'm no economist but nit do I rely on someone else taking a risk to provide me with a job. So I think differently to most.

The problem I see is that the US market has gone from 6000 points to some 18,000 in the space of seven years, and it's all been on the back of government stimulus and zero interest rates, in other words a false economy.

Every large economy seems to be behind the eight ball financially and the likes of ISIS are cleverly displacing millions of people who need finial support, and that finial support has to come from further borrowings, I call it the start of WW3 without a shot being fired.

Crippling a nation finavially would be far more effective than firing shots in my view and we are all out of cash but the do gooders can't see this. This being despite the fact that for decades now we have supported the uncontrolled breeding in third world nations with out feel good finacial aid and the generosity of many.

As I say, the only thing that prevented labor breaking us was the mining boom, as it fed their waste. But that's gone now so hold on to your hats people I say.

While we all love to be generous, the saying 'charity starts at home' will really sink in soon.

Rehctub, it will really get difficult when the choices are cut the
dole or cut the pensions or cut defense or cut aboriginal funds or
cut all of them as well as uni students.

As Barnaby Joyce said, manage your debt or your debt manages you.
We keep hearing the mantra that we do not have a debt problem.
With falling GDP where do we get the funds to start reducing the debt ?

Agriculture and selling food overseas is one way, but not if we sell
the farms to our overseas customers.
One opinion I read is that the agribusiness is the only viable business that we have.

Where are all of these supposed jobs, Turnbull and Shorten will fix your dreams. Abbott was never going to succeed.

Abbott’s idea was to incite riot, and terrorism, and you blokes learned pretty well. Where are all of these jobs you speak of, do they exist.

It’s no good putting up fictitious arguments, you need substance.
Morrison needs to talk sense instead of passing slogans, or he will be out. Isn’t he supposed to be treasurer. Where’s the minister for welfare.

When Turnbull gets his policy’s together we may see some action, guaranteed not like the Abbott and Hockey “ put everything on the workers” solution.

Bazz is having nightmares, banks, no dole no pension, where does he get this stuff, probably from Arjay.

Abbott’s 50 billion $ worth of cuts don’t kick in till 2016-17 so why the delay. Would he rather have it on someone else’s shift.

Nationalize all mining before any more profits are hidden overseas, would be a good start, and discontinue coal mining altogether, the world does not want that anymore.

Does anybody ever think of developing newly productive export industry with properly paid income for the employees and the nation?

If everyone received $100 or $200 per day take home pay there would virtually no people on the dole.
I think many dole recipients see they can have more staying at home on the dole than paying transport or parking fees and fines and tax from going to work.
Absolutely for many people there is no incentive to go to work.

I think the fundamental problem is that cash money is now too scarce in this day and age.
It's no longer possible to live eating rabbits and trading some for the next door neighbor's vegetables.
Cash money is now absolutely essential.

If you pay interest for finance then money is plentiful.
The scarcity of cash seems akin to government land not being released onto the market, forcing people to pay higher prices.
The cash shortage forces many many people into finance, more business for the finance industry.
Whole nations are having to pay for money to use. Money should be available, not restricted.

I think the best solution to shortage of money for consumers and also the solution to the shortage of money governments are faced with, is for productive policy to generate newly productive local and export industry and business and employment.

The dole was meant to be a short term safety net to help people while they were actively looking for work. Now it is being abused by successive generations of families who are using it as their only source of income from school leaving to the grave. Throw in low-rent public housing, child breeding money and other allowances, and it's not a bad lurk. In the meantime, people who do work are paying these bludgers with a good part of their taxes.

As for the 'no' jobs available' squawks, just listen for the complaints of business owners who can't get workers, even for above award wages and perks. We still import around 140,000 a year people as part of our normal immigration intake. Surely nobody believes that all these people, every year, go on the dole and stay on it? And, what about 457 visas. They would not be necessary if there weren't the jobs to fill. Backpackers find work easily. Why can't Australian dole recipients find the readily available casual work and still look for a full time job? No. There is no excuse for the abuse of welfare in Australia, and it's time politicians got serious about the problem.

778,400 that is how many jobs you need to find.

Everybody would like to see no unemployment, but that has never happened and is not likely to occur.

Ttbn What you are saying is easy pickings, but unrealistic. No doubt Morrison will explain if he can his plan to get all of those people off the dole. Words don’t mean anything unless you can back them up.

If such a plan could have ever existed it would have been used long ago. I doubt if it ever will.

No political party will ever put it self into a position of public backlash and political suicide.

It is no good denying there is not enough jobs to go around, that is just ignorance.

Whatever wild ideas of solving unemployment you can come up with would never ever be implicated. Morrison wanted 6 months before a claim for unemployment could be lodged, which failed to implement, because of obvious reasons.

So you are stuck with wild ideas and nothing of substance to use at all.

ttbn, surely you can agree that if a worker can earn $1,000 cash take home pay, such paid work would be more of an incentive for a dole bludger to go to work instead of being on the dole.

Government economists have engineered the increase in numbers.
It now costs half a million to buy a cheap house.
It needs $200 cash take home per day in order to pay for everything that a normal conservative sober person needs or would reasonably like to have.

The numbers people are paid need to increase up to be suitable to modern day cost of living.

Create the incentive is what government should be doing, instead of supplying pink bats etc and milking motorists with fuel excise tax.
Put up the GST but reduce income tax, so people can afford to buy things they need, things that business and industry are cable of producing, while providing employment at the same time.
They way it's supposed to be. Isn't it?

And why not encourage NEW productivity at the same time.

Jobs are easy to find if your employer is the likes of the billionaire Russ Withers or his lacky Warren Wilmot, the grubs who headed the 7-Eleven franchise which was ripping workers off to the tune of between $400K and $500K a month, this alone make the union bashing witch hunt run by Abbott look like small beer. How about some prison time for these crims The business mob and their conservative supporters want to stop with the false front that they are "shocked and appalled" by all this, millions of dollars is being ripped off workers by small business every day in cash payments and under award rip offs. Don't worry about Sunday penalty rates, make this mob meet their obligations instead!
Morrison said we don't have a revenue problem, we have an expenditure problem, we have a problem with business large and small not paying its way,

Another way to increase jobs: cut out weekend pay rates. I usually shop during the week, but last Sunday I needed some potting mix, and paid $11.97 a bag. Not enough potting mix, so I went back on Monday. Same potting mix, same nursery, $10.97 a bag. So, the people who have to shop over the weekend - working people who are paying for indulgent welfare - are paying more than they should have to because unions in particular, and socialist doctrine in general, demand that workers be paid more for certain days of the week. They can't even fall back on the 'day of rest' originating from religious beliefs because they hate religion as much as they hate rich people, successful people trying to make their own way through life and everything else 'not them'. If these galahs think that workers are badly off now, they are in for a hell of a shock when, thanks to the Left's spending of other peoples' money with abandon globally, the standard of living will go through the floor in the West. There will be no money for indulgent welfare.

If there is not enough money then there will be unrest and turmoil like in the Middle east.

ttbn get over to K-Mart, I picked up 3 bags of good quality potting mix this morning @ $4/30Lt bag (Australian made). K-Mart pay penalty rates under the union negotiated agreement, possibly your flower mob might be one of those small businesses ripping off the workers, and ripping off the customers too, so it would seem with their most likely imported non union potting mix from Bangladesh. Is that not proof unions bring you lower prices?

Butch and TTb are leftovers from the Abbott era, and that is why Abbott is not there any more. They are the against everything movement.

The hard right don’t exist any more, and their supporters are leaving the party in droves. You will have to wait till the next life to see another Abbott.

We now have a middle of the road PM, and that does not make the Conservative side of the liberal ‘s happy at all. Turnbull is the best thing ever happened to them, it was a foregone conclusion.

J F Be careful Butch and ttB can’t understand rational thinking, if it makes sense they will not want to know about it. They need to see blood streaming down the gutter. Just like Abbott did.

Any thought of creating employment is out the window, they need to create more unemployment to have a pool of peasants’ when there is not enough on the dole, wages rise

Doog, please quote me accurately. I said pension etc cuts not no pension.
You need to get out a bit, even the economists, yes that horde of
optimists that believe you can have continuous growth in a finite world
have finally got the message.
It has not filtered up to the politicians yet but after a few budgets
that cannot make anyone happy they might start to wonder.

Can I hear already a faint cry; "Bring Back Tony Abbott !".

Don't worry about Malcolm, it is Morrison that we will have to watch.
If he wakes up to what is going on he might well force Malcolm to
go where he does not want to go.

It's actually 'ttbn', doog, which stands for try-to-be-nice to remind me to do just that. You quite often make that very hard for me to do; at least you are usually polite.

You are stretching it a bit calling Abbott hard right. He wasn't much of a PM, possibly because he wasn't far enough to the right, but he was too soft for me. You will now declare me ultra-right or some such. I am a conservative. Conservatism is a state of mind; it and culture, not necessarily connected to any particular party. Surely you haven't missed my criticisms of of Abbott and the Coalition? Surely you have known conservatives in the Labor Party? One doesn't come to mind currently - more's the pity - but there have been several in times gone by: all retired now, probably due to the far-Left people who have highjacked what used to be a centre party, with good ideas.

ttbn, on second thoughts no need for you to pop into K-Mart and pick up those bags of potting mix, enough BS in that last post of yours to grow all the 'geraniums' you want. "Conservatism is a state of mind" your got to have a mind first before it can be in a state! LOL. conservatism, state of mind, Abbott, he wasn't far enough to the right, but he was too soft, yeah right, what ever you say Genghis Khan, too soft indeed! Good to see the last of him!

JF AUS, you do realize that the reason most of our manufacturing jobs are gone is because we are no longer competitive on the global market. Put simply, our wages for business, which includes tax, super, leave loading, penalty loading, sick leave, parental leave, work cover and redundancy payouts are at a point whereby we have made ourselves unaffordable, the really scary part is that while wages are high for businesses, they are too low to live on.

You also forget one minor issue, wages are paid from profits and most employers are small to medium businesses. Just calling for an increase won't don the trick.

You then said " If there is not enough money then there will be unrest and turmoil like in the Middle east."

So just where do you think we are headed JF, or more importantly, where do you think this pit of extra money is going to come from to fund all these great wages?

My suggestion is a total scrapping of our out of date tax system to be replaced with a transaction tax, on that taxes everyone evenly, small, average, medium, huge, even mega huge as everyone must use a bank account at some point.

Of cause this will see those who earn very little effected, but this who earn the most will also pay the most.

Its been suggested a TT of just 2% will generate more than we collectively have now and, it would see millions each week going back into the economy through increased spending.

Doog, sticks and stones my friend

I can tell you now that in the next few years we will see the abolishment of penalty rates for many industries and low skilled workers will be working for ten
Bucks an hour.

It didn't have to be that way but the unions insisted with their intervention and secured boom time rates and perks that are now unsustainable.

Just you watch.

Rechtub, if we are lucky the myth that we have been fed on will not
happen. The poor countries will not get richer but we will get poorer.
If that does not happen we will be overcome with war on our doorstep.

We are running low on resources and one way or another they will have
to be shared around.
All the problems loaded onto businesses is the result of trying to keep
the cheap oil & coal era roaring ahead. From the 1950s onward we lived
in a marvelous world. Cheap energy drove our economies and made the
global economy something to wonder at. International travel become
everyone's holiday. Australia led the world in house ownership and
the country expanded like there were no limits.

Unfortunately there are limits and it all fell apart in 2005/2008.
The rules changed and even the economists did not understand the change.
Business as usual was their cry after the crash but it looked like
they would get it but they were working on "Pay Day Loans" and did not know it.
In the last couple of months the bailiff has been looking up our address.
We simply cannot generate the profit from Australia Pty Ltd that we
became accustomed to. Our best bet is agribusiness.
It will make us a good profit and it will keep the wolf from the door.

It will require politicians the like of which we have never had before.
It will need someone that will say to the people you are not going
to like this, but it has to be done.
I can only think of one politician that has ever said anything along
those lines. No it is not Tony.

Paul,

Onya, mate. If you can't beat 'em, get nasty. It's called the Left Way.

JS Aus,

• $52.000 for what sort of job? We can't compete with current relatively high wages.
• 1/2 a mill for a house. Think about why.
• What criteria do you base the "need" for $200 a day on?
• Do you think that people should be paid a certain amount even if the job is not worth it?
• Fuel tax is a fact of life that will not go away.Pink batts was a stupid Left idea. The
current pickle is partly down to the Loony Left.
• Why put up the GST(harder on the poorest) or any other taxes. We have a spending
problem, not a revenue problem.

Gee, ttbn, that's gratitude for yeah, me points yeah in the right direction for yeah cheap as chips potting mix, at the union friendly K-Mart store, save you being ripped off with poor quality crap produced by non-union cheap labour in Bangladesh, that rip off anti union mob down there at the flower store sold yeah for 12 bucks a bag.
Also gave yeah free Don Burke quality advice on grown yeah 'geraniums'! Some people, I don't know!

Australia has its own currency, with a value determined by the market. This has two crucial implications:
1) When Australian businesses are uncompetitive, the market will devalue the Aussie dollar until they become competitive again.
2) The government has unlimited credit. Even if we had twice as much debt as Greece, we'd still borrow to fund our deficits just as easily as if we had no debt at all. That doesn't mean we should always run deficits —inflation and interest rate concerns sometimes make surpluses the better option. But this isn't one of those times.

BTW Paul, Australian quarantine regulations don't permit importation of potting mix from Bangladesh.

Thanks for that Aidan, so they must be bring that potting mix in illegally! Assuming it's from Bangladesh and not the genuine stuff from Swaziland. Just can't trust them there small business types can you. LOL

Where would be a good place to put the concentration camp, to lock up all these people on the dole. Bazz is always worried about not enough oil. If it is not in the main stream media don’t take any notice of it.

Conservatives infiltrated the Liberal party and Abbott had a front bench of them. That was his down-bringing. He forgot to talk to the Liberal ‘s on the back bench.

A front bench of over the top thinkers. What is the good of policies that are never going to get implemented, a waste of time. Hockey’s first budget is a perfect example of how not to be in govt; Now we are in an era of stability and rational, with Turnbull and Shorten calling the shots.

Butch always wants to cut wages, that will work only if commodities are also cut. That is the part that will never happen. The less the consumer has to spend the less that goes to small and big business. Austerity has never worked, and has never made sense.

Some businesses have outlived their time, you can’t expect the workers to take the hit for outdated business. Oversupply is another fact of less customers to go around

ttbn; Pink Batts was not a bad idea.
The problem was that the way it was implemented.
The improved efficiency of air conditioning is just one good reason
to install batts. The improved comfort in hot weather is very good.

The industry warned the government that they were asking for trouble
the way they set it up. I got that first hand from an industry leader
that had a meeting with the "Bald One" in Canberra.

Well doog, someone has to worry about it as not many understand the
implications. Just keep nagging away, and maybe pollies etc might wake
up with a start when some news item triggers their understanding.

Interestingly, the economists were almost solid in the Pooh Pooh
brigade of "If the price is high enough roosters will lay eggs !".

Well now they are beginning to understand that the roosters have been
straining in vain for six years to no avail.

The quote above BTW was from a government economist in 2009.
Any way it is all good fun.

ttbn,
You ask, (copied and pasted)

• $52.000 for what sort of job? We can't compete with current relatively high wages.
• 1/2 a mill for a house. Think about why.
• What criteria do you base the "need" for $200 a day on?
• Do you think that people should be paid a certain amount even if the job is not worth it?
• Fuel tax is a fact of life that will not go away.Pink batts was a stupid Left idea. The
current pickle is partly down to the Loony Left.
• Why put up the GST(harder on the poorest) or any other taxes. We have a spending
problem, not a revenue problem.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 3 October 2015 11:06:00 PM"
(end copy paste)

My response to your points is this:
1..... From my perspective, $52,000 is a nothing amount of money if you look at it from an Italian Lira point of view.
Think about it from the other end of the spectrum, from the fiscal policy and money supply point of view.
We in the real world all know there is not enough cash money in circulation.
I think we all know if there was more money around there would be more trade and turnover and better wages and adequate revenue for government.

2...... At Liverpool in far south western Sydney it now costs an average $450,000 to $500,000 to buy land and a house, maybe an old fibro house.
These days a majority of young families can not afford to own their home.

3...... $200 a day is needed for a working husband (sole worker) to come home to his child caring wife, must have money for the days electricity, all food, all toiletries, medicine, phone, fuel work and back, school books, new uniform savings, rent and/or mortgage weekly payments. Plus petrol for the husband to get to work for that day and every working day, whatever work, every day. An individual has nearly double the rent.

Cont’d………..

…….cont’d
Then there is a small saving each day for the movies or a trip to the park or beach or river on the weekend.
So there is a shortage of cash.
So best to increase supply of bottom of economy working cash, in economies worldwide. That is equal worldwide.
Obviously employers must have increased capital at their disposal so as to afford the $200 a day. Let's say, no tax on employers and then employers could afford to pay @200 a day.
Look at this from a point of view at the bottom of the economy.
It is possible to update fiscal policy to include world ocean ecosystem rehabilitation policy. Whole nations live on seafood.
IMF, WB or other institutional understanding and co-operative management of the whole environment of this planet is essential and critically urgent.
4..... The job will be worth it if the economy is balanced , thriving and prosperous.
5…… The pink batts was halfway there. It stimulated some work but used imported materials. It should have been an export generating project, for example to offset loss of wool and living off the sheep’s back.
6…… What is the fuel tax percentage in Brunei ? Export productivity can generate resources for government and industry, instead of milking people at the bowser.
Loony Left Looney Right same difference.
7……. People with adequate money can afford to pay some GST when they decide to purchase an extra.
Reduce and/or abolish GST. Daily essentials at the bottom of the economy, vegetables, bread, meat meat etc, could be GST free.
There is a spending problem because there is a shortfall in overseas revenue previously generated by the wool industry and no newly productive export revenue generating industry to meet population needs

Paul,

Brunnings top quality (red label) Australian potting mix. Australian wages. Australian unions. I'm not complaining about the price, just the difference between the weekend and weekday prices (Australian unions). Note Aidan's comment on quarantine laws. We import too much, but we don't import potting mix.

Aidan,

You are a glutton for punishment. Living on debt is the main reason for the trouble we are in - personally and as a country.

Bazz,

Make work schemes are artificial feel-good schemes that ade far to expensive for taxpayers.

Anything commercial 'run' by the goverment will fail. Only private enterprise can create jobs.

Teamwork between private enterprise and government can create business and employment, just look at how it built this nation, to date anyway.

JF Aus.

1. $52k is a 'nothing amount'? You must be much, much richer than I am. More cash injected. Ever experienced hyperinflation?

2. Home ownership is not a right. Millions rent. Rents are too high because of what we talking about (plus greed).

3. It's a long time since I've been in that position. I would have to see a budget to comment. I do know that some people do not live within their means (see Mr. Macawber). Single earners are rare today, thanks to feminism and want it now attitudes - another problem connected to the topic.

4. Pay is based on skill needed.

5. Too expensive for the public purse. Pivate enterprise must be left to job creation. No demand, no profit, no enterprise. Governments do not do business at all well.

6. Give people more money, then take it back in GST? And, unprocessed food is already GST free. There's another hint for money saving.
Big-spending governments are the spending problem. We export less because we cannot compete. High costs. Back to square one.

ttbn; The pink batts was not a government run scheme.
It was for anybody to do it and the government would just hnd them the
money. Some people only saw a couple of batts go up then were told
all done and Wayne give me 2 $thousand.

Kids on the roof etc, it was a rort from start to finish.

Even just today I see an acknowledgement that our growth is declining further.
If we have less & less left over we will not be able to pay the
interest on our borrowings. The government is borrowing (I think),
$1billion a month to pay the interest.

Does that sound like something gurgling away down the tubes ?

ttbn,

1. Step back in time to the 60's when a house was $20,000, and that house is now $500,000, so 52k is really very little to some people, and numerically it is a nothing amount when talking about millions.

2. Home ownership should not be virtually impossible.

3. Look beyond your own position. D0 the numbers. More and more people cannot afford or now choose not to buy things they would like or often need. Single earners could be good to help prevent other burdens due to over population.

4. Are you suggesting unskilled workers should be paid nothing? Great skill can always be paid on merit. Back to the point, if consumers are not p[aid enough from employment then less spending and less manufacturing, and less employment land less revenue.

5. Running the nation is a business and our government agencies do it well, especially compared to others.
It will be interesting to see if the Turnbull mob follow through with the Agricultural Competitiveness White Paper focus and infrastructure development.

6. Unprocessed food has indirect GST via all the goods and services required to produce the unprocessed food, the price of which ultimately pays that GST.

We export less because we don't have anything more to export. I don't know of any glut in export product. Do you, ttbn?

It's really not the spending, it is lack of income, lack of revenue.
This is a time when more spending is needed, not less.

My view anyway

ttbn,

Paul,
Before you cmplain about the difference between weekday and weekend prices, first be sure it's real, and the single example you noticed wasn't just due to a catalogue sale starting on the monday.

Even if it isn't real, don't assume the unions or pay rates are to blame. It could just be an attempt at demand management — either to get the shop to use more at quiet times, or to ensure it doesn't sell out before the next delivery.

The claim that as a country "living on debt is the main reason for the trouble we are in" is a DANGEROUS LIE.

It's a lie because since the government restricted its borrowing to Australian dollars only (which has been general policy for the last 30 years and absolute policy for over 20) government debt has caused us no harm whatsoever.

It's dangerous because politicians, believing governments have harmed the economy with the decisions they made based on the mistaken belief that government debt was a bad thing.

Most money exists as debt. Apart from the relatively small amount of physical cash, the total amount of money is zero.

It could sensibly (though incorrectly IMO) be argued that the amount of private debt before the GFC was the mainncause of the trouble. But since the GFC the problem's been too little debt, not too much.

And if something's worth doing but the private sector's not doing it,why wouldn't it be worth the public sector doing it?

Bazz, labor had quite a few good ideas, they just couldn't implement any of them.

I liken it to wanting to build a new house. You engage the best planners, buy the best materials, then hire a dodgy builder, the result, a great idea ruined through poor implementation.

Doog, all I say about wages is they, like all other things, must be allowed to rise and fall with demands and trends, we are currently in a spiral downward, so wages have to fall as well. Either that or we loose even more jobs. Your call!

JF, just where do you think money comes from, profits.

All you see is the $52K, what you don't consider is the additional 30 odd% on top of this for tax, loading, super etc etc.

I think that I have said all that I havd to say on the matter. It has been polite and useful. I think.

JF,

Of course I don't think low-skilled workers should be paid "nothing". But $52k is too much. I would also like to refer to the difference between 'wants' and 'needs'. Yes, it is desirable, essential really, that all people should have for their needs. Wants are a different matter, and they are not essentials.

Aidan,
I will never be convinced that it is good to live on borrowed money. Apart from 3 mortgages
Paid off many moons ago, I have never borrowed money. I have owned 11 cars, all but the first were brand new, and I paid cash for them. I'm now driving a 7 year old car which is still doing the job. I could go out tomorrow and pay cash for a new one, but I do not NEED a new one. Perhaps that's why I don't have the money worries some people seem to have. When I want something, not need, I save up. We are not all rich, and we certainly should not act as though we are using someone else's money. Old fashioned, but it still works.

rehctub,
In the past I have given example of $100 a week take home pay.
You figure what is needed.
Do the numbers on the basic wage for a family with only one wage earner, after tax.
What is left over for general shopping? Nothing.
The dole has no petrol or other transport costs to go to work and return home daily, for example.

ttbn,
PAYE tax can be reduced to virtually nil, while GST is made very high, as in France (used to be anyway).
In a properly functional ecopnomy I think it essential that consumers spend and consume, but at present many people find they need to save to pay ever increasing costs for absolute essentials.
Less money left over means less to spend.
Too bad for the manufacturers and retail industry.

Cheers

ttbn, I agree with your principle of using your own money to buy things.
When we got married I said to my wife, we will not be buying anything
on credit. She went along with that as we moved into a new three
bedroom house with a bed, a kitchen table & chairs and a fridge.
That was it, no carpets or anything as I believed we would have it
fully furnished much quicker by not borrowing.
Ha, I just remembered we had a second hand 10 inch Dutch Philips TV
set I borrowed from work.

However for business I agree with using credit when its purpose is to
add to the business income and so at the end of the day you are out
in front.
It seems that we have let debt be the means to get everything now.
It seems to be out of control.

JF most small businesses make a smaller percentage in profits than they used to and when wages get increased over and above the cost of living, at some point the dog catches it's tail. I feel we are are approaching that time.

The average person is unaware of the real cost of wages, for reasons I have mentioned and in fact, what i paid in wages twenty years ago was the same as I earned, about 15%. today, wages are rarely below 23% so to increase them more, without increasing profits/margins just won't work.

20 years ago my gross profit was 28%, whereas it's 50% now yet I make less money today.

Sorry it won't work.

rehctub,

The money comes from banks. It exists long before any profit is made.

The alternative to letting wages fall is for the government to intervene so keep demand up. And at's a far superior alternative for two reasons: firstly letting wages fall would give a huge comparative advantage to the already rich, while leaving the battlers unable to meet their financial commitments. Secondly a cut in wages would result in a lot more people leaving the workforce, as the money wouldn't be worth the effort any more.

_______________________________________________________________________________

I'm not trying to convince you that it's good for individuals to live on borrowed money. People have limited working lifespans so there's a significant chance of the person not being able to afford to repay the loan.

But having had 3 mortgages, you know how useful debt can be. And you probably also know that debt enables businesses to do much more. Unless and until they can get sufficient credit, they will be unable to acquire equipment that they could make a profit from.

For sovereign governments that only borrow in their own currency, the case for debt is much stronger. With unlimited credit, the reasons for not taking on more debt simply don't apply. So while deficits (and surpluses) can be important, debt itself never is.

Butch Jack your price up or quit winging, that is your options. Innovation is the name of the game.

When we are in a downturn the first to suffer are non essential businesses, and that has always been the case, this is why we rely on govt; to keep an even keel on demand. Abbott had no intention of that and lost the plot.

Some people would like to live in a permanent 50’s state of living. The type of opportunities did not exist then for credit, Hire purchase was about it run by shop owners.

Debt is a principle part of business, the idea of debt is to make it work for you. Debt today is used as a political tool, only

rehctub, the money system is not working the way it is right now. Cash is so scarse there are food riots coups and wars.

I am not proposing that small or big business just pay more.
Think about another way.

Think, if employers were paid money to employ people instead of having to pay payroll tax.

Consider Brunei where people pay virtually no tax and the country generates resources from exports.
If Australia greatly increased export revenue there could be less taxes locally.

Not for one single second am I suggesting employers can afford the higher wages.

Think of how stimulation of the Aus economy helped keep Aus out of a recession. Think what stimulus of the world economy might achieve. Stimulus could directly included in bottom of economy wages that generate consumption.

Minimum wage one income families here would have $100 a day take home pay if they did not have to pay tax. Government could pick up revenue from turnover when the $100 a day is spent.
New productivity and new export revenue could be more possible if government debate and time was spent on innovation instead of on combating media driven opinion poll ramifications.

You point out profit of 28% some 20 years ago and 50% today with less money made, so what will the ratio be in another 20 years? Or 50 years?
Clearly the money system is not working the way it should be.
There has to be another way.

At the bottom of the economy there are millions of would be consumers and guess what, they lack enough cash money to buy goods that manufacturers are capable of producing.

The present monetary system generally is not working, prosperity among many people including many wealthy people, is going backwards.
We should keep asking what Scott Morrison and co is doing about it.

Bazz,

The young ones have had it so good (and I am pleased for them) that they honestly believe that the way things have been in their short lives is the way they have always been, and the way they will always be. Nor do they want to listen to oldies because they don't value history, and society no longer values experience.

Doog, for instance, recently posted that people like us are "against everthing" and don't want to move on, or words to that effect. If thats his opinion, we are wasting our time. But what he and others don't seem to realise is that we have experienced much of the experimental Marxism they are talking about, and it simply does not work. They are not prepared to have a look at the tried and true methods because they deem them to old fashioned, out of date, not 'progressive"d. They don't think hard enough about the consequences of "new" ideas enough.

The mechanism for going backward does not exist, that is a waste of time and effort talking about it.

It's only Conservatives that want to go backwards.

Ask Scott Morrison what he is going to do about it. Isn't that what the ABC tries to do, and only gets slogans, or rhetoric.

We are yet to hear of what Morrison's ideas are, until then we are only guessing.

Doog,

"Mechanism" not needed. All you need is common sense and, if you were raised by parents who who also knew nothing, a bit of self education on the past, tried and true methods of running a budget, personally and nationally. Nobody wants to go back to the 50's literally, but life wasn't too bad at all in the fifties. There wasn't the tecnology that now makes life easier simply because they were not invented. But, we were a lot happier then than people are now, with the massive increases in the standard of living, increased wages, luxuries and so on. But, you just will not take time to listen to anything that does not fit in with your narrow mindset, and you will have to take the consequences. You and your comrades will be rightly blamed for the poverty and chaos as were bolshies in other countries. You are not even aware of the failure that this Leftwing crap-thought brought in all countries who tried it in the past.

Common sense will tell you not to go backwards as well., I don’t blame you for not being happy, you have waited for a lifetime for Abbott to come along, and what happens, he gets the arce.

You live in your past dreams, and leave everybody else out of it. Turnbull is your new PM.

What are you talking about consequences , what consequences. Left wing crap. The Pm is liberal, he deposed a Conservative. We voted Liberal 2 years ago and got a Conservative.

I think you have lost the plot. This country will never see a Conservative govt; here again ever. The brakes are coming of of the asylum prisoners in Nauru. Which is a step in the right direction.

Shut them detention concentration camps down and we will save a fortune. Keep up with Turnbull and you will get over Abbott.

We now live in Turnbull era, an exciting time to be alive. The last 2 years was a dead loss in more ways than one.

Two questions.

Would it be correct to say Tony Abbott lacked common sense during his time as prime minister?

Does PM Malcolm Turnbull possess common sense?

Gawd doog, how old are you ?
I would expect better knowledge from a teenager.

J F
The jury said Abbott definitely lacked any sort of commonsense, it was all over every paper and television, you must have missed it.
To early to say if turnbull has common sense or not, no doubt he will learn how not to govern by what happened to Abbott. That should answer your question.

Bazz Would you like to explain what you mean, it could be important.

You blokes voted Liberal and got a fizzer, his own party moved him on and now you don’t like his replacement. What do you want. There is 12 months till the next election, it’s going to be tough waiting isn’t it.

You just have to accept the fact that Abbott is not coming back to appease you. Turnbull talks to his fellow party members, and makes decisions that his party endorse. That is the job of a PM. So get used of it. We can not run a ramshackle govt; and expect miracles. We must have a united team and get this country to prosper. The polls tell the story of a successful govt; or not, without Abbott worshipers.

The minister for women’s affairs, now that tell you about that man’s self indulgence.

Aaahh doog, I thought you would understand what I meant.
Life was good for almost everyone right through from the postwar period
up to the about the start of the 2000s.
Sure, if I wanted to do some financial transaction I had to go to the bank.
Now I can do it from my desk while I have a cuppa.
Also many other likewise things.
Your confusion is not realising that is not what it is all about.

That whole period was based on cheap energy;
Think about it, 1 litre of petrol will move your car about 12km.
How much would you have to pay two men to push your car 12km ?
More fundamental; one man & a tractor can plough a 100 acre paddock in a day.
How long for one man to plough a 100 acre paddock with a single plough & one horse ?
Sorry to bore you with that, but is the fundamental truth of the last
fifty years. That time is now over, so live with it and adapt.

Bazz Electricity cheap in those days, that may sound cheap now but so was everything else if that is the way you look at it.

The year is 2015 and there is no going back so you will have to adjust and live in the present times.

So have you found out yet what Morrison is proposing, or is that to hard for him to come up with. It had something to do with people on the dole.

Turnbull is moving on the impounded asylum seekers. That is a different approach.

Did you read about the Australian mining project that is 30 billion in debt.

Just so you know doog, you are what is known as a Cornucopian.
Cheers