I see there was yet another shark attack down Byron way and some fool thought it safe to go surfing, ignoring the 'beach closed' signs.

At what point should our authorities say 'you're on your own mate' because had this fool been attacked I've no doubt our valuable resources would have been wasted on him.

There are no "authorities" because no contract was ever signed between that surfer and those thugs who arrogantly call themselves "authority".

Had such a contract existed, then it would stipulate the responsibilities of both parties, but as it does not, everyone is on their own.

Shark attacks are increasing rapidly to the point where swimming in the sea and beach side tourism will become a distant memories.

Shark nets work, and if monitored kill few sharks. At some point reason must prevail.

Sharks are hungry, probably through over fishing, and no doubt climate change has it's say in it also.
The oceans are a fishes habitat so get to buggery out of it and stay out.

Nature works on the survival of the fittest principle. It is not a very fit species that is stupid enough to protect its predators.

I wonder if someone injured or killed would have a case against the idiots who promoted, & enacted the fool laws that protect sharks, snakes & crocodiles in Australia.

It is about time we outlawed stupidity. I guess that would then leave us with a problem. We'd have so many locked up, there would not be enough left to do the work.

Considering that 90% of the worlds fish stocks are gone, it is surprising that the sharks are not leaping out of the water as you pass so they can eat you.
I wonder if there was a really good surf beach in the North and it was in crocodile territory if the surfers would go there and take their chances?

We will never be 'on our own'. We now have a firmly entrenched nanny state, controlled by socialists, who will never give up their control. The more than can do for us, at huge expense, the more control they have over us.

Dear Rehctub,

I realise that it can be very frustrating when
people do silly things - be it in our oceans,
driving on our roads, in our national forests,
and country areas, on our city streets, in
restaurants, clubs, hotels, homes, or elsewhere.
Especially when their foolish
actions end up costing lives, time, money, and the mis-use
of scarce resources.

However, I am sure that if it was any of us or our family members,
behaving badly, we would still greatly appreciate the help
of those who come to our aid.

I recall seeing a TV program on a doctor who works in the
Emergency Department of St Vincent's Hospital in Sydney.
A miracle-worker loved by patients and staff alike.
Yet this man's favourite past-time was to simply sit quietly
on a bench and just chill out after a hard day's work.
That to me spelt volumes of the stress his job must entail.

Yet he's considered a Saint by those he helps daily.
And Thank God for people like him!

Foxy, the reality we face now is that there is simply not enough revenue to support our essential services with a typical example being a druggie demanding up to ten medical staff and assistants attention while those with non self inflicted injuries or illnesses waiting hours to receive help. It's just crazy, as druggies should be locked in a padded room and checked in the morning.

I think the sooner we adopt the policy of recouping costs associated with treating victims of self inflicted harm, including drugs and over indulgence the better off we Will be because we just can't make the dollars stretch

Yeah same goes for all the fat people, smokers, druggies, drinkers, diabetics, nutters, homeless and poor people. Stuff em.

I'm alright. If they cant get ahead how is that my fault?
Everyone should be left to sink or swim on their own merits.

If old people freeze to death or the homeless starve why should I care? I didn't kill them.

If you are stupid enough to get born into an impoverished family that's you're own fault. Why should I have to pay to educate the subnormal sprogs of the plebs?
If your parents don't care enough about you to send you to Kings or Scotch College then maybe you should think about suicide. You are obviously worthless.

Oh and stuff car drivers too. If they have an accident just drag the cars off the road and take em away to be crushed. All this rescue and paramedics and crap. Just a waste of taxpayers money and delays the rest of us. If you cant drive properly and get yourself in an accident you deserve to die.

Same with idiot bushwalkers and sailors. Get lost and you're on your own.

No one cares. No one wants to help you(Unless you can pay of course.)
No free rides, no helping hand, no mentor, no guide, no elders here.
Just YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN!
Get lost in other words.

This is the world of the neo cons and the rightards. On your own!
The world of mises and our very own jardine.
A brutal world of exploitation, greed and hate.

Nice rant there mikk.

The fact is welfare was designed as a hand up, not a hand out, and it most certainly wasn't designed as a safety net for drug dealers as it is often used.

As for homeless people I could sole many cases tomorrow by allowing these people to help out time poor people for board and lodging, but the do gooders would jump and and down crying of exploitation and demanding back pay.

Fat people, as you call them, who are fat by their own doing should nit receive free medical assistance, same goes for smokers and excessive drinkers and known dole bludgers should be cut off.

Quarantining of all welfare would be a good start and public housing should be reserved for decent deserving families, not single mums with multiple kids to multiple fathers. Public accommodation should be considered as well.

Will give anyone a free meal, but not a cash hand out.

Entering the water where sharks live is a self inflicted (potential) wound. It is an invitation to death or major injury
by predators who not only live in the ocean but have perfected the art of survival to highest degree.
If a shark chooses you as its meal then it is no ones fault but your own.
Having said that and given there is no law or penalty (other than being eaten) to prevent people entering the
water it should follow that whatever it costs to rescue and treat the horror of shark attack would and should be
met by the victim and not the public purse.
Perhaps when these costs are weighed up by the potential victim they might think twice about their suicide wish.
But then I forgot the egotistical "rush" that goes with the surfboard.

Rehctub is upset at anyone who is not like him obviously....so he isn't fat, never smoked, never ate junk food, never had unprotected sex, never swam in the ocean or in croc infested waters, never drove above the speed limit, never drank alcohol, never attempted any sport that may result in an injury, never accepted any help from anyone for anything silly he may have done, and neither he nor his relatives ever asked for or received any 'welfare' money from the Government at all, including the aged pension.

Wow! What a saint! What a boring life!

You must feel humble in your own presence Rehctub?

We will always help others in need, because it could easily be us or someone we love being in the same position one day.
At least the surfers are usually fit and well, with all the exercise they do, and I would suggest cost the taxpayers and community much less than old male pensioners.....

Suze, you've almost described an episode of 'this is my life but, the difference is even as a young worker I have always earned big money and always taken full financial responsibility for myself and my family. In fact, I had a melt down a few years ago after being forced out of a shop by a greedy landlord yet despite not working for almost two years I did not apply for the dole.

So no, I'm not perfect, but I don't expect others to come to my rescue. Infect, I had an accident many years ago, self inflicted, and broke my back. It cost me somewhere in the order of a million but apart from my hospital stay I still didn't seek financial help.

In my 25 odd years in business I have helped many but not a single one that I felt didn't try to help themselves.

So flesher if you had of one day lopped off a hand in the meat saw who would you have looked to for help? Not 000 surely. No paramedics for silly butchers who cant keep their hands out of the band saw. Thats self inflicted idiocy isnt it.

Ever in your career need a few stitches Rehctub? Most butchers I have known can almost stitch themselves up they have seen it so many times. You didnt go to casualty did you? Thats ripping off the public that is. How dare you get welfare for your lifestyle choice and own lack of skill. You should bleed to death rather than rely on other peoples money. Thats right isnt it? Thats the way society works isnt it?

NOT!

Quite right Mikk.
Rehctub apparently made 'millions' so he never had to worry about accepting help for any problem he had.
Most people don't have that luxury and need to look to the wider community and Government for help, and that is how a good society works.

chrisgaff1000 I'll go along with you there, provided I'm not restricted by some greenie ratbag law from defending myself from the shark.

Provided I can take a powerhead with me, I'll take my chances quite happily.

I don't believe in expecting someone to spend a lot of money & effort fetching dills who get themselves into trouble. I spent 8 years, sailing 53,000 nautical miles around the Pacific islands in my yacht. I had a little 5 watt radio, great for picking up time signals for working sun sights, but useless for calling for help.

Today authorities demand a radio capable of calling the USA before I am allowed out of the heads, we create a rod for our own back.

Having had some large fast vessels under my command I have rescued more than most. However I did sometimes feel a bit miffed on behalf of my employer, when I had burnt 800 gallons of fuel fetching some fool who had gone 40 miles out to the reef in a boat powered by a single outboard.

Actually Suze and mikk I've had plenty of stitches all of which I've paid for through the doctors. I have used public facilities though and i have no problem with anyone doing so, the problem I have, which is the basis of this thread, is at what point do we say No, to people who place themselves in self harm.

Work cover has acted with an example being that if you contribute to a workplace accident, by refusing to use PPE provided as an example, then your benefits can be reduced.

And Mikk, if I did lob a hand or finger off I had insurance to cover that. I don't now because I have my own insurance, i would just sell something because after all I didn't accumulate my asett base to die rich.

Ok Rehctub, if we look at this thread's subject of shark attacks, at what point do we say no, and who will be the ones saying no?

Do the people on the beach say no, after a surfer is brought in mauled? Does the ambulance service say no, they won't pick up a mauled surfer?
Does the ED staff say no they won't treat such an idiot as a surfer?

If they do decide to say no to the surfers, will they then decide it is only fair then to extend the no to all role who attempt dangerous sports, any sport at all?
Will that lead on to the smokers, drinkers, drug takers.... the aged?

Where do we draw the line, and why?
A slippery slope indeed...

Ok, fair point Suze, so perhaps it's time we start charging for services provided by the tax payer, with the exemption of the elderly and organized sports.

Don't you think the Government has already thought of that? For example, charging for use of public hospital facilities and staff?

However, what should we do if someone says they can't pay, or don't have any money?
Do we say no, you can go away because we won't treat your life-threatening condition unless you can pay?

Who decides which people we say no to? Will it be the ambulance officers, the hospital admission staff, the nurses, or the treating doctors?
What if it is the children of people who say they can't pay?
Aren't the children just as vulnerable as the elderly in these circumstances?

No, as a civilized society we must continue on as we are now, charging all those who can pay, and looking after the basic medical needs of those who can't pay, for whatever reason.

Absolutely agree Suse.
Even looking at it in a fiscal sense our system is the most efficient.
Look at the US. They pay much more for their health and emergency services than us but their outcomes are far worse than ours.

Disease and ill fortune can effect any one of us and I am proud and honoured to live in a society that puts so much effort into saving the injured and distressed. Even if it is their own fault.

.....Disease and ill fortune can effect any one of us and I am proud and honoured to live in a society that puts so much effort into saving the injured and distressed. Even if it is their own fault.

So I just hope Mikk that you're are one of the 3 out of every 10 who actually pay more in tax than they draw, because if you're not, then you have no right to make such a claim.

The blunt reality is, we don't have the funds to fund everything on our publicly funded 'wish list' so choices will have to be made as to where we make the required cuts.

Dear Rehctub,

Why should organised sports be an exception and be paid by those who are not involved? Surely they can take their own insurance!

---

Dear Suse,

"Who decides which people we say no to?"

If that's the kind of society you want, then those who are voluntary members of your society (and their children) should never be refused medical treatment, even if they cannot afford it. However, privileges always come with obligations, so such members of your society would also be obliged to follow the "beach closed" signs.

However, those who never agreed in the first place to participate in your society, should neither be required to obey your signs, nor be given medical treatment if injured, probably against their will anyway.

Yuyutsu you always come across as an angry person who doesn't want to be told what to do by anyone, including Governments and lawmakers.
Why on earth do you stay in such an awful place as Australia then (if that is where you reside)?
Wouldn't you be happier in a communist country, or in a lawless society somewhere where anarchy reigns?

As for medical people treating you against your will, you should be sure to see one of your hated lawyers soon and have your medical wish not to be treated under any circumstances written in stone.
You could go right ahead and swim with sharks then.....

Dear Suse,

You mistake this to be a personal matter of mine.

While I am personally comfortable here and my personal complaints are only minor, my problem moral in nature because it is morally unacceptable to benefit from being part of a group of people who force themselves upon others. Unfortunately, no place on earth is currently free from the control of such groups.

Yuyutsu, you can only be 'controlled' by others if you allow yourself to be.
Be thankful you live in such a wonderful country.

Dear Suse,

Personally I have no inclination to swim in a shark-infested beach, in fact it's been a number of years since I swam in the sea at all, yet we are currently discussing a topic: it's not about our personal life, nor even about this country or the other - it's all about moral principles and how they should apply to a person who decides to swim in a beach despite it being declared "closed due to sharks".

How is it possible and how can you possibly accept that a group of people who name themselves "state", control a vast area of land (a whole continent in the case of Australia), dictating to all people who live in it what they may, may-not or must do? How can you possibly accept that similar gangs currently infest the whole face of this planet? It is atrocious and belonging to such a group is shameful!

Back to sharks, there is one argument that actually allows people to prevent others from swimming in shark-infested beaches, but it was never mentioned on this thread yet: that when a shark tastes a human, it develops a taste for humans in general, thus endangers others.

It is legitimate for people, including groups of people who organise themselves for the purpose of mutual defence, to defend themselves.

But you have not argued your case on those grounds, of preventing sharks from acquiring a taste for humans. Your argument instead was in favour of defending others who were never willingly part of your group, that non-existent mythological phantom which you call "nation".

While you have every right to defend yourself, it is illegitimate to attempt "protecting" others against their will who never consented to be part of your group.

Yuyutsu, organized sports have their own insurances and more and more individual players also have private cover.

Besides, if for some reason the organizers consider the conditions 'unfit to compete' as has happened with surf life saving comps, then this is a prime example of organized sports. However, if a LS decided to ignore the warning and got taken, then I'm sorry but unless the services have nothing important on their books, then you are on your own and, when they do come to rescue you, it comes at a price.