Dear CH,

Even the Indonesian President has pointed out
that the number of drug users had reached 4.5 million
with 1.2 million of them beyond the point of
rehabiliation because of the extreme natures of their
cases.

In other words, the death penalty for drug traffickers
has done zilch to stem the spread of drugs into
Indonesian communities.

Dear Is Mise,

According to Wikipedia - it is believed that there
are around 130 people, Indonesians and foreign nationals
(as of 2013) sentenced to die in Indonesia.
Ten new death sentences are handed down annually.

Many of the persons awaiting execution have been waiting
for ten years or more.

Ironically, Indonesia is well noted as a strong advocate
against the death penalty for its citizens abroad.

Foxy,

Your logic is flawed, I might say (with equally flawed logic) that without the death penalty there could be 9 million addicts in Indonesia.

Foxy, the death penalty is not and has never been about either retribution or deterrence.

It does not deter and a moment's thought will show that it never could be a deterrent, since the crimes for which it is reserved are usually either crimes of passion or economically motivated. In the former case, the perpetrator is either unable to think clearly enough about the consequences or regards any price as worth paying. In the latter, those who benefit most from the economic transaction are rarely the ones who are held to account for the commission of the offence, while those who are held to account are rarely in a position to refuse to carry out the crime once it gets to that point.

Any prima facie claim for it as a normative retributive measure is unsound at best. The first and most obvious reason is that in a legal context, appropriate retribution is very arbitrary. It is defined by lawmakers and changes over time. In the present case, the previous Indonesian President declined to authorise use of the death penalty, while the current one chose to do so. Perhaps less obvious is that calculating an objectively fair penalty for any particular crime is by no means a trivial task. Judges spend years learning about the principles of sentencing.

As a sentence, it is fraught with problems for all those associated with it. The families of those who are subject to it suffer extreme anguish and are arguably subjected to punishment as innocent victims. Those who carry it out are often severely traumatised. There is a reason that only 3 of the rifles of the Indonesian execution squads carry live rounds.

It has been shown to offer no genuine catharsis for victims and their families in most cases. In fact, some such people are among the most active advocates against the US death penalty.

So what's left?

Simple: it is a display for the mob. And as the mob here has demonstrated very well, mobs haven't changed much for centuries.

Dear Craig,

Thank You for your well reasoned contribution.
I cannot argue with its logic.
And it surely presents an excellent case against
capital punishment.

chrisgaff1000,

Good informative post and thank you for the update of the Russian Mafia.

I don't believe that many here have any idea at all of the fearful (that word used again and advisedly I believe) Russian Mafia. However the fact that other gangs and mafias give them a wide berth should provoke some thought.

Where a shot to the heart is concerned, bleeding out is not relevant. A modern fast-stepping projectile has huge damage and shock effect, stopping the heart in seconds (there would be no effective pulse, any remaining heart muscle would be in ineffective spasms), or much more likely, instantaneously. Loss of consciousness is immediate and permanent. To take a parallel, that meets the high standard of humane slaughter. A firing squad has more than one bullet.

The pistol shot to the head is highly unlikely to be administration of the coup de grace ie ending of suffering (because the person is unconscious), but to satisfy medical death for a doctor.

There is the rare record of a soldier hit by several 5.56NATO equivalent and remaining conscious, but that would only be where none went anywhere near a vital organ and missed bone as well, which would have created shrapnel and more devastation. Imagine a 7.62NATO.

It is inconceivable that a properly drilled firing squad would miss the fist-sized heart area at short range. It presents a large target indeed. Ribs hit are added shrapnel. For insurance, where the shooters are seated with the rifle on a bench rest, missing a 20c coin at 25 metres is hard to do. Such incompetence would have seen the man tossed out of the military in early training.

Is Mise was an armourer. I believe he is a competent shot too. He might comment. Particularly regarding the reported Indonesian firing squad range of between five and ten metres.

Craig Minns, "Foxy, the death penalty is not and has never been about either retribution or deterrence"

What is?

Re-offending would be less common one would think.

This is all spin to take the attention away from the free choice of the criminals in planning and committing their offences, the seriousness of the offences and the resultant harm, magnified by crime consequent to the addiction of thousands.

The media pack is moving on to the next media circus, which relates to someone alleged to have trafficked 30kg of methamphetamine. Corruption in China? At a solid hit of 30milligrams that translates into a possible one million new youthful addicts and one hell of a crime wave.

Any wonder the police and medical services are overloaded. Illicit drugs are costing the taxpayer millions and are associated with DV and other violence including guns.