I am both forever and ever a trade unionist, and not too far from a centrist in politics,welded on to my ALP.
Do most understand not all unions are the same?not all act alike? that differences even in who votes what way exist?
The current debate about the Rudd IR changes has a few frothing at the mouth and saying it is a sell out.
But is it? it is my view ,a lifetime view, that unions should not take it for granted that our message sells its self.
That some people will never understand some union actions are not majority union ones.
I find no challenge in the Rudd Gillard system as it has so far been presented.
Unions will be free to represent workers again and it is a true chance for real reform.
A reform was needed , workchoices in no way was reform it is a dreadful insulting king hit to the Aussie fair go.
Do not put the actions of some loose cannon union officials down as standard unionists at work.
It is no measure of a union or officials worth to look for the biggest thug or mug.
I have seen union delegates from more conservative unions threatened with a bashing from lunatics better suited to be doormen at some lower value club than an official.
A to me that type is unwanted in the movement.
While different unions under Rudd will prove they can work in mainstream Australia and not harm IR in most cases, but a difference exists it is worth understanding it.

Dear Belly
the greatest act of honesty and sincerity that a 'good' union could ever do, is to stand shoulder to shoulder with other Aussies at the door of one of the BAD unions like the ETU or some of the CFMEU offices and BLOCKADE them... (until police come when they will disperse peacefully) and have signs which point out that BULLYing and THUGery and INDUSTRIAL TERRORISM have no place in Australia, and that the perpetrators of such are the absolute scum of the earth and in reality nothing better than criminals. (of course some might see some hyprocrisy in 'bullying' the bullies, but I disagree... it is making a stand for right,in the name of the people against pernicious evil.

Another sign would be "DON'T SUPPORT FOR ISLAMIC TERRORISM"

THAT is the day when I will support good unions :)

I'm also ready to stand with other unionists who don't want their names blackened or tarred with the same ugly brush at those doors. In fact..I'll be right out there in front.

So.. words are cheap mate :) actions speak louder.

Arrange 20 blokes and give me a call.. ETU is the target. Dean Mighell supports suspected terrorists (by describing their arrest as nothing more than anti Islamic 'racism')and BRAGS about how he bullied Employers etc etc

Kevin Reynolds.. he seems of the same ilk as Mighell.

Life can be such an adventure when we actually DO things.

woops.. lousy grammer there.. no 'FOR' in that "DON'T SUPPORT....

David Boaz
Well said. What people like Belly dont understand is I dont want to be a member. I am able to pick and have and have choice of where I work and the conditions I work under.
I dont want want myself or kids[if I had them] being forced to pay fees to a service I dont want.
Let people join if they wish- sure.
However I saw the stress the uni kids went through being forced to pay.
Wrong Wrong Wrong.
Belly had a belly ache because she thought a country saw mill owner ought to pay a full days wages for his staff to go to an Anzac day March.
Well thats her story anyway.
An all day Anzac March David?
See this is the mentality of these people. When I suggested had they asked to attend the March without pay for a couple of hours then return to work she went loopy.
Just imagine the effect this lot would ha ve on small business owners if they get in and force people to be in a union.
No Ticket no Start.
Talk about a free country

Its hard enough to get good staff and once you have them you certainly treat them very well indeed.
I dont need to donate to keep little union bosses in jobs to bully small business owners.

Belly=SHE ?

Yes.. PALE you introduce new and important points to the discussion.

For me..its about justice. Justice must be intepreted in the light of 'viability'. You can't ask for 120% of your wage if it adds 20% to the price of your product which is ALready more expensive than your competitors.

Well..in truth you can ask.. demand... beg.. intimidate..whatever.. but the outcome might be the loss of your and every other employeess job as the factory or business closes down.
Mudgenberry Meat works
Mayfair Hams (Bendigo)...

That Mayfair hams thing is something else. I went for a walk through the HUGEEEE and vast complex, and being deserted, and dilapidated and falling apart, it looked like a set for Mad Max or Chernobyl-the movie.
It was erie.. scary.. LONELY... all the ghosts of the former now UN employed workers.. the fading images of the continuous card game the union wanted so workers could have extended (like half the damn day) lunch breaks etc... the unions destroyed that business AND the livelihoods of the workers.. How ? Simple..

STEP 1 Promise great things.. high pay, less work, more entitlements... (with zero regard for the business to afford them)
Then, you get 'elected' (based on greed and selfishness)

STEP 2 "Deliver" the goods by arranging strikes, blockades, pickets, threaten and harras non union labor entering the place..

STEP 3.. provide for the workers who lose their jobs as a result of the unstainable promises that got the union bloke elected... OH..WAIT.. no.. they don't/can't do that do/can they? at least not for more than a couple of weeks maybe...

Then.. UNION BOSS comes out with a grim expression (in his BMW) and speaks eloquently about "OOOOoh.. the workers MUST have their entitlements" (now that we have destroyed their jobs) as IF.... he cares about anything other than his own position.

Then.. the Union bloke drives back to his 'Luxury Apartment' on the new Docklands.

Of coure (Belly) I'm talking here about the BADDDD unions, like the ETU and the BADDDDD unionists like Dean Mighell and his big mouthed thug/crimo/racist/anti_Australian(in my view) mates.

Something else you might like to consider is the role journalism unions are playing at the moment.

Freedom of Information laws have been used against journalists to stop them from telling us all sorts of things we'd like to know - like the real effect of bracket creep, the real impact of Workchoices, how decisions are made about where paedophiles live when they're released, which restaurants don't measure up to standards.

Exactly how telling us about this stuff is against the national interest is anyone's guess.

Unions are supporting the campaign against govt secrecy. Not everything they do is destructive.

Not all union are the same? Give me a break! Some may be a little less radical than others but they would all like more members, more power, more funds for the ALP and to be held less accountable for their actions. They all hold the same basic "values" and they all have, to a greater or lesser degree, the same "them and us" culture.
The thought of unions once again getting "the right to represent workers in the workplace" is the stuff of nightmares.

No, most people don't understand that most unions are not like the few rogue unions. And, they won't understand because so many Aussies have been conned and manipulated by the Coalition's furphies, spin and scare tactics.

I agree that previously some unions had too much power and a reform was needed, but as you said, Belly, Work Choices was NOT it. Instead it swung the pendulum to the other extreme, where the individual worker has NO rights and the employers can do as they choose.

Most of my friends are younger than I am (I'm 69 and retired)and all have been negatively affected by the government's IR laws.....less pay, no award conditions, bad hours including split shifts, and many have lost all sick leave and rec leave. The only friends I have who have not been severely affected are those who work for the Queensland Government and thus still have their award and other reasonable conditions. But even those people have an unreasonable workload since their department's 'restructured' and 'downsized.'

I had post grad qualifications, good assertion skills and top employment as a Psychologist, but I would have found it very difficult to 'negotiate'for higher pay and decent conditions without the assistance of the Professional Officers union. What chance would a person have to 'negotiate' when they don't have the qualifications and assertion skills. They don't, and many of my friends are 'caught'.... needing their job and being told that if they complain they'll lose their jobs.

I'm all for the Rudd/Gillard changes, which are reform and will put the pendulum in the middle where it should be

Bobbica
Good for you. If you feel incapable of speaking up for yourself then by all means go ahead and pay fees that could otherwise go to charity or your weekends or your kids outings.
Not all of us feel we dont have the backbone to handle our own affairs.
I actually get rather insulted at the idea of people insiting they share my choices where to work etc.
Like I said and please dont get me wrong. Go for it. become a number if it makes you feel safe and happy.
Bobs your uncle.
Just dont try to force me or my family to join your darn scholl girls club.
Remember Freedom? That means freedom of choice.
So you join but dont try to force me.
Isnt that fair Enough?
Dont you think.

She? pale I once said I found it hard to believe you knew what you are talking about!
Thanks for the evidence!I am country born male.
BD gee we agree again, in your first post all those you target I agree with!
I am constrained by the fact I am not free to speak on behalf of the movement ,just myself, but my biggest enemy is often thugs from one of those you mention above.
As evidence all unions are not alike it may interest you to know MOST of my delegates are refugees from an other union that has been mentioned.
Communicat shows total lack of understanding that it is indeed true all unions are not alike.
And like it or not the future is bright for those in the movement who are fair and balanced, the members they serve will be well served by honesty in dealing with issues .
threats are a failure of unions and bosses to truly deal with issues.
I again highlight the bosses unions as being different , no way they can be left out of a debate about unions
I started the thread to say clearly unions are not the same nore are they as some blindly think unwanted in every bosses office.
I am proud that twice this last month a boss invited us to visit and start a first ever agreement for business they own and run , not in any way are all bosses the same .

pale you do go too far, your constant insults are a reminder of why I am unionist and proud of it.
I picture you as not unlike my first wage paying boss, oh I worked without pay for country bosses who thought my labour was free because my dad drew a wage from them but that first boss.
Female country matron who spoke like an English lady.
Picking lettuce till 1 am to get them to market fresh, 3 days work and that first pay.
She ordered me to spend it on a new shirt and hair cut or not return to work!
My plans had been in place every minute of those long afternoons and early mornings.
I bought 6 loves of bread and half a sugar bag of mutton flaps for my hungry siblings 15 of them.
I never left a job that did not see the boss ask me to stay I am proud still to have always been the best or near best worker he/she ever had.
And your constant insults inferring a unionist is a trouble maker,thug , non worker, is remote from reality.
I am proudly unionist forever and proud and content to stand against the rat bags in some unions including the bosses my members are not my comrades but they are my mates.

No Belly I do not misunderstand you or the nature of the union movement. Unlike Bobbica the union (which I was required to belong to) did nothing to help me, indeed it actively worked against me. The union movement and the ALP are as one. There is no room for any other sort of political thinking or ideology. (A former ALP Senator recently told me that she 'did not know how any thinking person could vote anything other than ALP' which was, in my view, breathtakingly arrogant.) The "We, and we alone, are right" attitude of ALL unions and the ALP quite frankly terrifies me. Oh yes, it comes in degrees of belligerence Belly but that is the ONLY difference between you all.
As for fair play, honesty etc etc forget it. More than once I have seen my "union delegate" vote against the wishes of the workers but in favour or the ACTU bosses - and try "voting" any other delegate into their place...the unions are riddled with corruption and so is the ALP.

bobbiecee... warm welcome to OLO mate.. good to hear from the proffessional side of town :)

I'd love to see some of your psychological skills applied to some of the reasoning we find here.

Yes.. you point out a dilemna. "If employees are peceived to be weak, and voiceless, they will often be ignored."

I went for 3 yrs without a pay increase and inflation was ripping into the value of my static pay each year. I finally 'exploded' in a gentle but firm kind of way, and ended up negotiating my revised position. Then, there were reviews of everyones pay.. (I was supervisor).
But I also know that business could not sustain too much in wages increase. So...its a battle.. ethically and financially.

BELLY.. great to hear mate.. send me some of your biggest blokes and we will blockade the ETU one day :) I'll go in front and take the most heat.. imagine.. locked arms.. chanting "The Citizens, United, will never be Defeated" :) (Today 2night looking on of course)

cheers all.

Belly, you are spot on about 'constant insults.' I wrote what I felt was a rational explanation of MY views and feelings, and why, without insulting those who thought differently, and what happened, PALE felt the need to insult. I read many blogs and letters and I've noticed that those who agree with Howard, usually the radical right, appear to feel they need to resort to insults rather than engage in a rational discussion. Why is that? Interesting, isn't it.

PALE, I can assure you that the union fees I paid were more than compensated by the wage increases I received with the assistance of the Professional Officers union's collective bargaining, and that union was working totally FOR us, with unanimous agreement from employees. This gave me the additional money to spend on charity and my children. Our union did NOT suggest strikes (we were far too busy to be able to afford to take time off like that) but was able to effectively promote us, the amount and quality of work we performed, and why we needed to be compensated for that, as well as why we needed to have bank time off for overtime worked, essential since I often worked back up to 10 hours per week depending on level of workload and crisis management.

I do feel one shouldn't be forced to join a union and perhaps it will come to the point where the unions do individual bargaining for those who choose to be members. The cost of union membership will be significantly less than the cost of a solicitor. My feeling is that more people will be joining responsible unions in order to protect their working conditions. The pendulum will swing back to the middle if the ALP gets in. If it doesn't, there will be an ever growing number of working poor....as is the case in the USA.

Bobbice

It may be the old Engling Lady did you a favour in the long run. Old days tough days. Kids these days dont know what it was like back then and want everything handed on a spoon.
The trouble is we cant pick and choose who the bosses are and they are mostly a bunch of empty headed thrugs.
I am very interested in your setting up something for migrants. Could you tell us a little more about what it is your setting up - or have set up.?
I just wish people could choose if they would like to be a member or not.
Dont you think thats more fair?
David Love your humour.
See there is already inna fighting amounst them so here we go again.
Maybe they could get rid of all the boses and re vote on leaders.

Bobbice sounds reasonable but he is just one decent bloke amoung a whole lot of thugs. What can one bloke do.

Why cant people choose if they want to or dont want to be a memember. That is what bugs me more than anything.
Also Davids correct the small biz cant take much more wage hikes.
They always forget that the owners huge huge overheads and wages too.
The mentality of many is to look at a bif factory and say- Ah Gee wiz this blokes loaded he can pay me twice as much.
Of course the same bloke is often struggling to pay off the bank.
The word strike would have a life long effect on him.
So hes driven to the wall goes broke and the six hundred workers all go on the doll.
To make it worse even if they find another job in another industry they cant take it unless they have their ticket please to work.
No ticket no start.
If you had a half a dozen kids and a bank loan you may not be able to pay for that ticket after being on the doll for six months.
To me its like Russia a life time ago.

BOAZ, sadly, some of the 'reasoning' here is NOT reasonable. It's emotional abuse in the form of insults. I saw a lot of that in my work in prisons, inmates becoming emotionally abusive as part of their need for power and control. Sadly, this type of mind-set is similar in those who resort to abusive insults in this and other forums where one disagrees with their point of view...a 'My Way or the Highway' mentality.

I may be a 'professional' but I also care about those who don't have the skills to negotiate, like you eventually did, those where inflation combined with no pay increases and unreasonable working hours are causing them to slide into the growing number of working poor.

As I said in a previous post, there is a happy medium between previous union demands for unreasonable pay increases and conditions and the current situation with Howard's IR laws, where pay is lower and conditions are non-existent. Many employers are demanding constant overtime with no compensation in order to keep their lower pay jobs, with the accompanying stress, burnout and negative effect on marriage and family. Sadly, in Howard's Australia, there are many who are in to greed and SELF and who appear to have lost any sense of compassion, humanitarianism and egalitarianism. As long as they're right, they don't care about others....until they lose their job or can't afford their mortgage, or their marriage breaks down.

Boddicee
I asked you about the migrant work you were doing with great interest.
We are looking to bring them into Australia to work in plants and have a real need for something for these people. These are the very people that could benefit by something like what you say your doing.

That is where your type os service is helpful by people not used to our laws and often not as quick with the English as we are.
I have no problem to help these people and we are actually very interested in that.
My personal comment that people should not be forced still stands.
However we ask you again.
Please tell us a little more about your work for migrants.

PALE....It must have been somebody else who works with migrants. Sorry, it isn't me. I worked in the prisons and am now doing some contract work with Qld Corrections (substance abuse relapse prevention) as well as volunteer work with seniors (Elder Abuse). I have been looking for more volunteer work to do and think it might be a good idea to see what's available in terms of working with migrants. BTW, I'm not a bloke, I'm a female.

Thank you for your courteous post. As I've said, I also feel people should have a choice as to whether to join a union. I chose to join, my daughter has chosen to join (BTW, she's a professional too), my son has chosen to not join. Being a bloke and with several needed trades, he is sought after so is able to negotiate his work conditions and pay.

I still feel that there are many persons who are not in my son's position and who are essentially powerless, and abused by employers with the current IR laws. Most of my friends are 10-15 years younger than I am so they are in the work force. However being in their 50's, they are not in a position to negotiate and have been forced to sign very unfair contracts. Therefore I'm not just talking in general, I'm talking about friends who are being abused by their employers, and who feel powerless because there are very few employers who will hire those in their 50's.

Bobbicee

I am delighted to hear of somebody interested to help the elderly. The Elderly, aboriginal people and of course Animal Welfare are the closest to my heart.I know this is off post but please consider this. I worked on it for a long time but I will try to shorten it. Each Elderly person or persons on disabilty P-is funded by the federal Government through the tax payers to the turn of almost thirty dollars per day.

All people receiving in home care also must put in around $40 to $50- thats makes it around $280.00 per week and about eleven hundred dollars per month.
Not a fortune but enough to buy two hours a day in their own home care instead of the three hours to five tops per week they get now.

The federal Government send the funds to the state Government who create jobs for the boys then hand out in home care packages nornalyy to Church bassed organisations who in return again create jobs for the boys.

Instead of that we could create some real jobs by being given a choice how we wish our parents too be cared for or how we wish our services to be provided.

IE I am eighty years and decide I want Dial an angle to provide me with fourteen hours etc per week.- I tell the Federal Government to sent my funds to them.
I am 90 years and decide i want someone to live in. I give free accom and tell the federal gov to send my funds to my house keeper carer etc.
Results more elderly stay at home and less need for more homes for the elderly to be built. What do you think

PALE

I feel that all seniors should remain in their homes unless they have advanced Alzheimers or are totally incapacitated. And, I agree they need a minimum of 2 hours per day, preferably 3-4. However, working with the elderly who have been subjected to elder abuse by their children, I feel the senior should make the choices, and use the Public Trustee and Adult Guardian to clarify every eventuality.

Queensland actually has some good programs for seniors. Some of my clients get up to 4 hours assistance per day. There's also Home Assist Secure which offers handyman work free aside from wholesale cost of products or appliance (ie grab bars, security locks). And Home Care provides house cleaning, clothes washing, and driving senior to bank, shopping, etc. And Senior Shopper gets appliances, vehicles, etc at the best cost.

I intend to increase my assistance to seniors and have contacted several agencies where I could offer supplementary visits to seniors in their homes.

Let me tell you about trade unions at work, from this weeks work diary.
Construction workers work ,yes they do you know!, in the rain ,heat, or extreme cold.
They work longer hours each year, on this railway project they travel nearly 2 hours a day and work 10 or even more.
Such jobs get behind and the boss often with hat in hand asks that rostered days of are worked to make up for lost time.
Camped a very long way from home and family crews more often than not say ok.
It is meant to be taken so worn out workers get a rest, but those worn out workers understand #banking# a few rostered days of will keep them at home with the family for a bit longer on such weekends as this long one.
Some even promise the kids they see sometimes just one day a fortnight they will spend a week together later in the year.
So the boss asks for flexibility, that work continues and rdo days are banked.
Then very worn out men are told minutes before knockoff that it has been decided ALL RDO,S must be taken now! right now while it is raining!unplanned and unwanted once more workers give the boss takes.
But the fixed ROD must be worked?
No will you.
No sorry about your plans we need once more to use your rdo,s for our benefit.
So what was the outcome? pales dreadful union official busting doors?
No pain no blood just yes Belly when you put it that way it was not well done or planed we understand and agree it stays unchanged.
Far different from the anti union drivel we see here.
BD I am quite able to stand alone on any issue and to pick my own fights while I share your views about that idiot who degrades unions he is no reason to drop a basic of good unionism, no need exists to get into the gutter with grubs.

I hope it continues to rain! in that post about timber workers and Anzac day pale let loose on me a few facts are called for.
No radical union official putting the boot into Mr nice boss, Anzac day is a public holiday.
It is also for many like it or not close to our national day, who truly is not awestruck by the bravery of those who fought for us?
Pay rates are paid at one public holiday and time and one half for time worked up to the normal 8 hours.
Mostly only industry's that must continue work do so on this day.
Here the wish to continue the 4 10 hours days worked saw work go on so the next weekday would still be a day of.
Workers dare not even if given a choice say we do not want to work.
The boss is unlikely to find a friend within 200 klm of his home and much unliked.
pale can you understand a chance exists that some bosses are like this?
Can you justify your anti union dribble by saying any conflict is always the unionists fault?
Can you understand your views are totally out of touch with the real world?
For whatever reasons Australians went to war, and some reasons are wrong, I remain forever proud of them all, Anzac day reminds me we should all be.
Trade unionists are Australians too they vote for every party we have they fight our wars and they live and die as Australians new and old to call them names because they are unionists is a sad old shameful thing to do after all who questions the bosses unions?
And pale those 4 10 hour days? should be 38 hours in a week workchoices will if left alone see 50 normal hours or more in such jobs fair go mate! it still rings true for me.

Belly
Good God. I guess I am out of touch. Do you mean to tell me that small biz is expected to pick up Anzac Day by Law?
Lets see now.

We are going to show our respect[ as we should] to those fallen soldiers and brave heros we have left who saved us. BUT we are not going under our own steam?

We are not giving up one or two hours under our own sacrifise to pay that respect?

You expect ME a small town saw mill guy to pay for you' to show YOUR respect.

Thats certainly lacking in priniciple.

I am sure you cant see that Belly.

What a low down double standard attitude.

On TOP of that there is no law to make sure the disrectful BLUGERS who make a mockery of our fallen even GO?? Ok So long as ALLstaff being paid spend the rest of the day after the sercive painting war widows homes?
Do you agree?
Doing! someting for these people! no day at the pub. Done deal. Off from the service to WORK to show respect to the fallens familys!! yes

All the time whil I the small town Saw mill guy PAYS for them to P off fishing or whatever.

Rain Hail Cold storm or Shine whats your point re working?

If you work for me I cant pickthe weather.

I cant help it if its raining on your day off. Inder the condition of Australias lack of water I would suggest you teach your kids to rejoice the rain!

Anyway you CANT answer the question.

Why cant people CHOOSE if they want to be a member OR NOT?

As I said Your like PRO chioce. I pity the saw mill bloke.

I really do. God help this country if labour get back in.

They ran us HUGE international bills.

Or dont you remember.

They couldnt balance a household let alone this country.

Russ not labour. He a rich wifes man. Look at his own mess.
Your kidding!

I move that Boaz and PALE get exported live and together in the same cage to that mythical country that is all milk and honey and has never needed a labour movement of any substance to make it such a wonderful place to live.

STAUNCH
I *knew* it.
As soon as I saw the message- Post From STAUNCH.
I knew it was *another bully* agressive U N member. Whats the matter dumb dumb- cant you speak for yourself to negotiate your own wages and working conditions.? Porr little weak you. Need your support ah. Like school bullys., No good on your own.

This country is screaming out with jobs. We have a shortage of skilled labour in case you have not noticed.

Dont you know its rude to shout at people. No of course not. You actually think its smart of course.

Dont tell me STAUNCH let me guess- You love that stupid add with the idiots shooting pics like taking kids to a carnival that was put together to appeal to empty headed morons.

What a waste of money.[ Our public money] Would you think they could say something a bit intellergent?

Umm on second thoughts I guess they know you lot would not understand.
God I hope thats the case. It would be scarey if they were actually serious.
Guess what. I am not paying you to POQ on Anzac day and not help the war widows.

Not even attend a march? Its about time we stopped these lazy disrespectful blugers.

Bad attitudes come from bad leadsership.

Fight for a job in a few years time and you MIGHT appreciate ME- The little biz man giving you! work.

Rather travel with David Anywhere chum At least he has a soul and some principle.

You still cant tell us why we cant choose if we want to be a member or not be a member.??
Oh no- Just bully bully bully the boss and bully yourselves right out of work when my smallbiz folds due to your discusting attitude that I have to crawl to you.

Migrants want work. You lot want to bludge.

Get off the dole and get a job

I bet your on the dole.

Free Country?

Not under Labour

pale who is this Russ you rant about? I have seen many red necks on my travels around this great country.
Rarely are facts able to penetrate a good rant, and you do fill the bill lady.
As I said in a post in this thread unionist vote for every party we have.
They come from city's and the smallest country towns, some are employers yes those who hire workers often think not unlike them.
In offices of some of this country's biggest firms the big boss has been a member from his early days in the workforce.
No threats, no stand over just the way he thinks.
May I invite you to research your posts first?
To consider the post before you hit the button?
To consider your own miss information first?
Any thoughts on your belief I was female?
On what basis do you place our new poster among the unemployed?
And what evidence exists to claim bludgeing?
Are insults your only debating point?
Are you aware you do your ideas no good with floods of contempt for those you do not agree with?
calm down pale please your views are minority ones.

Come pale sit down and have a cup of tea, true we need to talk, see I have gone back to the top and re read every post.
You thought bobbiecee had spoke of that English sounding Aussie lady but it was me.
You asked bobbies to expand on his thoughts on an issue he had never spoke of.
Then in the rant against staunch you claimed the UN was behind his post?
Did you want to bring the UNITED NATIONS into the debate?
Or did you get unions wrong?
Believe it or not if I can be of help just ask, my Passion for helping those in need is forever and ever this evil trade unionist has been in the SES VRA once CREST, WISEN and help is just a request away, see unionists are after all just Aussie like you.
Sorry you do not understand public holidays ,I worked for a few farmers like that.
Australian governments both state and federal of all types long ago said Anzac day was a public holiday!
And so it should be we must never forget those we owe so much to.
have that nice cuppa and read your posts mine too if you like they are in need of attention.
regards but not respect
Belly

Belly
Ok I did my block- . I appreciate your offer - really.
The UN - was short for unions.

I will ask you to explain a few things and thanks.
[1] Why cant people choose if they want to be a member or not?

Let me tell you a thing or two about facts of the past.
You might have a break down on a plant- abattoirs.

It might be something that just needed a guy to tighten it with a spanner.
They used to have a line- ' literally' in these plants and nobody was allowed to do anything to any machinary past 'that line.

If a certain person wasnt there everybody would have to stop work and sit and wait just because it was 6ft past that stupid line.

If any of the owners said for god sake somebody get that spanner and tighten the thing they would all go on strike.

There are many more examples of the irresposible leadership pushing and pushing for more and more demands until it broke the camels back.
Australia can not compete in todays world in meat markets for chilled meats and labour have control of many states.

Again Sorry I was refering to Rudd. As Shadow Minister of Trade it was his duty to report that to the public considering it was a number one topic of interest and joined at the hip with the AWB enquiry.
Anzac day is a public holiday to show respect. It is up to each one of us to sacrifise something on that day.

Why should I a small biz owner be the only one paying to show that respect.
If *I* am then my staff are going to paint war widows houses after attending the parade.[ Thats NOT up for debate]

However Belly The first question is the key- Why cant people chosse if they wish to be members or not?
Thank You.

I move that STAUNCH meet me in the carpark after :) kidding.

Stench..... that was a most odd post, which added nothing to the debate/discussion, just wasted approx 20 seconds of my LIFE while I read it. grrrr...

Now being a bloke with very limited lifespan.. (a granddaddy already) I am very territorial about the use of my precious life days and moments.
PUH-lease come up with something constructive if you are going to post here. Even destructive is ok, as long as its well reasoned, which you post was not..

I hereby place you in the corner, with a special hat with the word 'Prize Dill' written on it.
*kick*

Reading the anti-union diatribe clarifies why unions are needed as sadly, PALE'S attitude is common small business owner mentality. Sawmill owner clarifies the situation for me as my son is a forest harvester of pine plantations and has had conflict with the sawmills, who were demanding that the forest harvesters work over Christmas rather than have their usual 4 weeks rec leave. Terrible threats and harassment but all forest harvester companies agreed with my son so the 4 weeks at Christmas is still on. PALE talks about union stand-over tactics but what I've seen is employer's are the power/control stand-overs.

In re RDO's, they are supposed to be used to balance lifestyle and stress in compensation for overtime worked, to fit in with the employee's needs. My daughter's work has scrapped RDO's while increasing the workoad. My daughter's a fast and efficient worker, works through her lunch hour, but refuses to work back for free. She was pressured to work back, had to call in the Union rep who negotiated for her, the pressure is off, she goes home on time, managing stress levels and lifestyle.

I was thinking the same about the nasty power/control rant against unions. Why is it that conservative have to stoop to emotional abuse rather than engage in rational discussions. Same occurs in Parliament. IMO, the spanner example was an untruth. My son's crew does everything they're qualified to do, and assist the qualified tradesmen with spanners, etc, when appropriate. He's a good employer and gets loyalty in return.

The negative talk about Rudd is rubbish. God help this country if Rudd doesn't get in. Tax money, our money, should be spent necessary health, education and infastructure, not hoarded. Amazing how many are conned by Howard and Costello's determination to destroy all remnants of egalitarianism and humanitarianism while promoting selfishness, self-centerdness and greed.

pale it was once true! once so very long ago you had to be in a union, not now.
Not in fact for so many years , oh yes a hand full of idiots still try it on but how could you think it still is so?
And you must understand enterprise bargaining ,the very thing Howard murdered, killed such demarcation disputes as its not my job.
Now back to the threads title * unions a difference exists*
It always has always will be so.
It is my personal view that men such as Bill Shorten and the man who will replace him as head of the Australian Workers Union, AWU, are the leaders of the trade unions of the future.
I do not live in the past ,at best your view of unions is 30 years old.
Never will I except bad actions of bad bosses never will I except worker damaging actions of extremist unions.
This includes some trade unions but you can not ignore the fact workchoices was planned by bosses unions that are extremists too.
BD you are too cute, in another post here you ask me to gather some of my biggest blokes and get down and dirty with you and an idiot enemy of working Australians.
Let me tell you I never started a fight in my life but never walked away from one that just had to be fought.
Mugs and Thugs run last leave our new poster to say what he likes and debate him/her keep in mind BD only the letter T separates a Wit from A Twit

BOBBIECEE.. standover tactics by empoyers are just as bad as those of unions.
Evil is evil no matter which side of the employment fence you are on.

I think our best resort ultimately is good legislation which
a) has teeth.
b) is resourced sufficiently

The "political" thing to do seems to say all the right things, "We need a department which will CLAMP down on unscrupulous people" etc etc..
but the crunch comes when they form the 'dept' with one bloke and a secretary and they receive a hundred complaints a day.. i.e. it may as well not be there.

There is another approach. We can seek to build a society which lives by values such as Christ taught. Then we would have less need to constantly battle it out with greedy people.

More emphasis on PRAYER and less on POWER. More persuasion, and less pressure. More politeness and less politics.

David Me Mate.
I like you but PLEASE dont encourage more PRAYERS. More PRO ACTIVE involvment please and less prayer.
More production and less prayer. More produce and less prayer.
More please of anything and less prayer.
I am sick of their mumbo jumbo raising funds to pop out and say a bloody prayer AND get paid for it from public donations given to help people in trouble.
Polish to floor board paint the house fix some fences plough chop wood cook a meal while the tired old lady or who ever takes a break.
Do something practicle and less PRAYER!
God now we will have unions breaking six times a day for prayers if we dont watch out.
Yep heres one for the unions. I am willing to bet you a shilling on the side as time goes by because others stop to prayer several times a day the old unions will come up with ITS UNFAIR SO WHY DONT WE ALL STOP Guess who they will demand pay for it?
Cheers Buddy.
PS I like you best when you dont quote the bible.
We all know its there but to me its a personal thing. I reckon its something you might want to read quitely in your own time and home if your in the mood.
Just my thoughts buddy.

The thread ends, they always do once they leave the front page, with evidence personal views need no facts to support them for many of us.
Pale you turn on even Dave who has stuck by you every step of your rant.
While I once shared the belief I only had to ask God and my future was taken care of I think DB has his rights to be what he wants to be.
But table this true honest storey as evidence we need no God.
A child of 11 years broke his arm, his then tiny church prayed that God would fix it for 3 days before taking him to hospital.
Yes faith is often miss placed and while I am aware some will never understand unions are not always wrong, bosses are not always right.
And before Howard's evil workchoices both boss and unions could go to arbitration to resolve issues.
Be brave pale and DB hold your selves and your views accountable after Kevin Rudd installs a system of balance and fairness to both sides in Australian IR just re read your posts and understand we are living in a time of change and heading for a better way.

Belly
I was not turning on David because he one of the real people. He belives in god not organised money making people.
My comments- if they offended him were not meant to.
I was simply giving church Leaders heaps and they deserve it.
David is a step above most of those.
You say Rudd will be fair and honest. Even if that were true what about his staff Belly/ A man is only as good as his staff and helpers.
They are the same people Belly. We have tried to deal with labour for years Belly. You must remember they run more than half of the states anyway. That gives us a peak at their skills.
Ok Lets take a look at Jack Lake Kyms advisor shall we?
Or if you like Burnie and Gavern- althought i think Gavern was leaving wasnt he?
Mate you try to give them a policy winner. They say Hey yeh this sounds good- lets get together. Then they dont show up. Kevin invited us to meet with him at the AWB enquiry time. I never bothered. I will give him a chance to prove he is really the leader you say Belly by contacting his office on tuesday. However so far as I am concerned when a shadow minister of trade fails to disclose something he knows very well is in the media spot light and public interest I cant see him suddenly changing if PM.
Perhaps he would be even more arrogant.
What bothers me far more about him is something HE HIMSELF said.
he said-
` "I understand these things we used to have a beef farm"

No Mr Rudd you dont and unless we get a new PM who does we are all in deep trouble.

What appears to be overlooked is what is constitutionally appropriate!

On 27-5-2007 the 40th anniversary of the Aboriginal DOOMSDAY of the holding of the 1967 referendum I published

INSPECTOR-RIKATI® on IR WorkChoices Legislation (Book-CD)
A Book about the Validity of the High Courts 14-11-2006 Decision
ISBN 978-0-9751760-6-1

This book dissect the judgment and how the judges of the High Court of Australia basically swindled us.

WorkChoices was unconstitutional and they knew it or ought to have known it but gave it a spin.
My book sets this out in greater detail.
Sure, it also expose how a union was setting up for a strike in the 1980, as I use their own computer records to expose this, but as like with everything else, you got the good and the bad and the ugly.
You have got darn good coppers (no just the once who are dead) and you got also many rotten.
You got good companies who provide after sale service and you got rotten ones.
You got good landlords and bad ones
And on and on it goes, including with unions.

Check the High Court judgment and try to find reference to “CIVIL RIGHTS”, “FACTORY LAW” “State based contracts” and you will find the judges kept it out of their judgment, either accidentally or deliberately as had they included it the so called WorkChoices legislation would have to have been declared unconstitutional.

See also my website http://www.schorel-hlavka.com

If I were in power today, I would simply make clear that WorkChoices is unconstitutional!
Neither Kevin-Rudd or John-Howard are right about it.
Kevin-Rudd’s reported intentions also ignore the limits of constitutional powers and as such is going to add to it all.

In my view, a AWA based on State laws (such as in WA) are constitutionally valid provided they are conforming with State laws! Federal based AWA’s are generally, but not all unconstitutional. For example for shipping they are valid, nothing to do with Subsection 51(xx) as the Commonwealth of Australia had constitutional powers since federation to cover waterside workers!
And there is a lot more to this constitutional nightmare!

Mr Gerritt
I hope Belly responds to you and others. Its a good comment.
I was watching Parliment for a few minutes yesterday and Peter Costello added up the funds Australia wide per state per federal.
It worked out the Syates ran at 58 billion in the red while federal run out at the same figures in black.
Dont get me wrong I am not a Howard supporter given my stand against the cruelty of animals and their discusting attitude towards animals along with the National Party.
However if you look at other matters you would have to be puffin muffins to vote for labour.
They have not got a clue how to manage money even in their labour states so why give them the country to stuff up like they did last time.
Look at the massive debt we were in before this Government.
Many orginary people seem to think that doesnt matter because Australia will borrow from overseas.
Thats a very dangerous attitude to have.
Guess what all you welfare lovers out there.
If Australia runs dry welfare going to be one of the first things to go.
There wont be any old age P - or sickness or unmarried Mothers P.
Trust me you all want to think about that.
Rudd will flood the country with more and more stuff from china.
Umm- So what happens when China puts its prices up?
I most certainly dont want to eat vegetables farmed on humane Ex
There is your furture with labour men and women of Australia.
Oh and by the way that comment made by Mr Rudd about our Prime Minsters wife was a good insight as to the lack of respect held by him towards the senior women of this country.
Food for thought ladies.
Do not be so bored you are all fooled.
Bored is good compaired to broke.

Well pale I will answer that post and yours, I find much in common with that post.
Let us get down to the very basics of what workchoices is, I A PROUD TRADE UNIONIST am not in need of a lie to state my case.
Workchoices harms the very fabric of the Aussie fair go! it at first harms our kids and wives and daughters.
It was aimed to cut costs and increase profits by wage reduction.
It was aimed at reducing union cash support to the ALP, yet no impost is ever planed on big business contributions to the conservatives.
Long term, just 4 more years of John Howard would reduce union numbers and membership by half in my view.
But it would in its mad attempt to make this country compete with cheap Asian Labour reduce half our peoples living standards and increase the other half's.
We once could say we had no class system in this country but we do now!
I believe the system of enterprise bargaining we had was best for business and workers and that workchoices is illegal and truly evil.
However it is also blind to its harm and kills real productivity increases along with the fair go!

When Costello was talking about the state's debt he was banking on conning and manipulating the gullible, and PALE, you bit. The reason the states are 'in debt' as you say, is because the federal government refuses to help fund basic services and infrastructure, instead, they are holding on to all our tax money so they 'look' like good financial managers, at the expense of every Australian. Can't you see that this was their plan? And, that it has indeed conned many Australians, you being just one of them.

You claim there will be no welfare if Labor gets in. There will be less welfare if the Coalition stays in. Can't you see that Howard's whole plan is to totally scrap the Age Pension, in fact, those under a certain age are already aware they won't have any Age Pension. or any other welfare or health care for any who aren't wealthy. Howard is trying to make Australia exactly like the USA where all but the wealthy have either no or minimal services. You need to read international newspapers and take a long trip to the USA to see what's happened there, then decide if you really want Australia to be that way under Howard.

You talk about eating non-Australian food. Under Howard, with his FTA, that's mostly what we're eating now as Howard has done all he can to ensure the American multinationals take over the country and refuse to support Aussie farmers.

Janette is indeed an example of what Howard thinks of women. 'A woman's place is in the home' being subservient to the superior male. Also, keep all women down and if they choose to work, on less pay, so they'll be skint when retire because they won't have as much super

For goodness sake. Give me ONE example of Costello conning or trying to con the public with the figures he raised in Parliment?

He will stand by the figures raised. How long do you think Costello has been in the job?

Only labour raise figures that are either incorrect or out of date.

Another example was "again in parliment today-" How embarresing.

They even sent out incorrect figures to their OWN members.

Now they are arranging for all the bus drivers to be trained to door knock to promote labour.

Talk about On the busses. Funny as.

Mind you they could have asked the nurses to fill in for them but they are planning to send THEM out doorknocking too! Complete with a back pack. It breaks me up!
Oh well it should give us a chance to try out the Governments hot line for sus people.
So all is well with you lot- that is IF you are not in ineed of a nurse "or a lift to a hopital" by bus!.

You again rubbish our Prime Minsters wife Jannet. I cant think what shes possibly done to deserve your wraff!

Clearly this lady would have a busy life with a full family home and added dutites as the Prime Ministers wife with many social funtions to attend.
I am just wondering- What more you want from any Australia woman of her age- OR any age for that matter.?

Peter Beattie at least! has show some leadership against Rudds irresponsible moves with council.

Now if Peter Beattie were running for PM I "might" hold some hope for a better leader because I am NOT happy with Howards blind eye to animal cruelty and exporting our animals in their most valuable form.

I cant think of a better reason to PRAY as Boaz would say somebody else throws their hat in the ring.
Only a dumb dumb would vote labour.

pale I do hope you have the courage of your convictions that you will hold your self accountable for this post.
You underestimate the move against Howard and the fact he can not win this election.
NO HE CAN NOT WIN THE ELECTION!
I stand accountable for my post and back my understanding of issues against yours.
The slap you aimed, God only knows how you got bus drivers into it! at unions giving information to members is quaint but like most of your posts uninformed.
Every election, even internal union ones, sees members knock on the door of other members.
How is that different than politicians doing it?
Or the Howard phone calls to our mobiles last election?
And is the real crime not the current flood of tax payer funded adds Howard is using to improve his vote?
Stay focused on others opinions too ask is it likely you are always right? and those you debate always wrong?
None of us can claim perfection .

Drop everything.

I forgot to tell you about labours attempt to rail road Meals On Wheels.

Thats right ladies and gentleman - You heard correct. "Meals on Wheels.?

I have got to say thanks to labour for my entertainment.

Why would you buy a commedy.

" Please Mr Howard you have never given me anythng else I have asked for- Cant we produce a video in the interests of national Health?

They say laughter is best for all of us.

Can We? Can We ? Please pretty please Mr Howard? Umm I should say May We please?

Dear Prime Minister can you please ask Pete for funding to run the best adds for political TV advertsing ever?

Come on Mr Costello? Dont be mean.

Can you imagine running a add - Three reasons not to vote labour running up for the next federal elections?

We could do the on the busses- look alikes All Saints and Meals on wheels.

It cracks me up.

Cant you just imagine all the oldies trying to turn in their hearing aids to pick up on another scare tactic of the most frial-

Our Elderly.

Remember folks this is before they are elected?

God only knows what they would introduce if they got in. { apart from even smaller size shoes and nickers!


Tony Abbot tried to point out that Julia sitting in Parliment contiunally pointing to a a4 peice of papers while our PM was answering her question was rude ill mannered and to be honest I felt ashamed for her!

The continued cracks at Mrs Howard will only alarm all our senior ladies and other women of Australia.

You see they just cant help stooping to lower than low tactics like bullies.

Now there is a familar word speaking of unions.

A little birdie told me the AMIEU were told to back off live animal exports and the barbaric cruelty involved.


See you on the busses Mr Rudd- funny as!

It would take perhaps several hundred post to explain it all, that I think is not desirable.
As to the budget issue. The Framers of the Constitution held that the Federal government should only use monies for what it is entitled too, the rest (surplus) to be returned to the States. Well, that is where we have a problem because it is simply not returned to the States. The monies collected are wasted on things such as political advertising for WorkChoices, etc.
There is a lot more to this, but those who, as I did, research the intentions of the Framers of the Constitution would be aware that starving the States of funds unconstitutionally was never intended. Blaming then the states hardly is appropriate.
That is apart of what a State night do wrong in their own right.

Earlier, I forwarded another email to ACTU president Sharan Burrows reminding her to my 26-7-2005 email to John Howard of which she also was provided a copy with, which also included the following;

HANSARD 27-1-1898 Constitution Convention Debates
Mr. SYMON.-
The relations between the parties are determined by the contract in the place where it occurs.
And
Sir EDWARD BRADDON (Tasmania).-
We have heard to-day something about the fixing of a rate of wage by the federal authority. That would be an absolute impossibility in the different states.
And
Mr. BARTON: If they arise in a particular State they must be determined by the laws of the place where the contract was made.
And
Mr. BARTON.-We do not propose to hand over contracts and civil rights to the Federation, and they are intimately allied to this question.
And
Sir JOHN DOWNER.-
The people of the various states make their own contracts amongst themselves, and if in course of their contractual relations disagreements arise, and the state chooses to legislate in respect of the subject-matter of them, it can do so.

Yet, the ACTU, Federal Government or the States nor argued this before the Court, “Why not?”, ought to be asked, as the so called WorkChoices legislation clearly is and remains unconstitutional!

The last post had

QUOTE
Yet, the ACTU, Federal Government or the States nor argued this before the Court, “Why not?”, ought to be asked, as the so called WorkChoices legislation clearly is and remains unconstitutional!
END QUOTE

That should be

Yet, the ACTU, Federal Government nor the States argued this before the Court, “Why not?”, ought to be asked, as the so called WorkChoices legislation clearly is and remains unconstitutional!

Do not my correspondece was dated 26-7-2005 before the WorkChoices legislation was put before the Parliament!

In any event, where the Federal Government concealed this from the Court then this constitute fraud, and any judgment being the product of fraud can be set aside!

http://familyguardian.tax-tactics.com/Subjects/LawAndGovt/ChallJurisdiction/AuthoritiesArticle/AuthOnJurisdiction.htm
The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.
Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it. . .
A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the land, it is superseded thereby.
No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it

Good to see the thread still lives just a few thoughts pale ,have that cuppa before you post calm down think it out.
The laughter you hear is me! LABOR! that is how the party spells its name.
On the busses? the obscure reference has meaning only to you.
Meals on wheels?
Our new poster has an interesting view one I share.
unions a difference exists, daily I see proof.
A poor unfortunate casual worker who is a member of my union has a storey to tell.
Another union he NEVER joined NEVER filled in a membership form with, has billed him 2 years fees!
His boss paid one weeks casual stay away fees to another union for the 3 days he worked on a site!
Let me tell you I think they are grubs for such gangster tactics!
A DIFFERENCE EXISTS!
I have seen at least 300 such threatening letters in my work life from this mob,
A DIFFERENCE EXISTS do not brand us all!fairness is a two way thing.

Belly
Well it is really funny. Its not my fault if you dont know what I am talking about regarding On the Bus and meals on wheals Belly.

Why dont you watch Parliment on TV. I dont get to watch much of it because I am too busy but if its on I find its very funny.

Re On The bus- aparently it was decided that each bus driver would be given a day off to door knock and a back pack.

That ought to help the hot line for reporting sus people wondering around with back packs.
Come on Belly you have got to addmitt its funny as. Cant you just see it- A dad reports a sus parcel just ike on the TV add= The bomb squad are rushed in - only to find a labour back pack instead of a bomb.
Mind you I guess they both have the same results eventually.

So I buy a bus company and I am told I have to pay for a days wages for all my drivers to go door knocking.
My question to you is Belly. Why Should I?
Please answer my question- Why Should 'I ' be made to pay for somebody elses PR?
See thats is why I cracked up a few weeks ago when you mentioned Anzac Day.
Sure I know its a public holiday Belly because I have employed staff all my life.
Many of those staff never bothered to show up at the local march but i had to pay their days wages.
Now Belly let me ask you this- Have you ever? tried to work with Labour? On anything? I mean people like Jack Lake Gavern , Burnie . Kevin Rudd?
I have Belly so I speak from experience. They cant run a chook raffle. Kevin needs to work under Peter Beattie and be guided by him.

I used to hire and fire employees, and only once the union sought to make an issue out of it, when I sacked an employee, only to immediately withdraw when I exposed he had been stealing from his co-workers.
While others in management complained about problems with the union, I found no such problems. Basically the difference being that when I took action to sack a person the person concerned would be well aware on what grounds I did so as to heed of any union problems.
And, the workers knew I was fair, in particularly when I sacked my own wife for failing to work to required standards. (I had not hired her!)

I would arrange a pay-rise for a worker because I held the person deserved it, such as a 16 year old who just worked for us for 6 months, getting full adult wages because I held he was worth it. Despite having worked on the land, within 6 months he proved to be the best machine setter, by the training I had arranged for him better then any other setter!

Now, if you look after your workers then more then likely unions will stay clear from you! As I made clear to the workers, if you do not like to work, don’t bother coming in but don’t expect to get paid, as if you have a bad day you would affect other workers. The result was that the workers rather desired to come to work and performed better and this in the overall increased production.

In the different factories I found time and again that looking after the workers avoided union problems, and the workers themselves desired to keep the peace.

There are good unions and bad unions, the same as politicians, lawyers, judges, etc.
Lets therefore focus on the bad and not generalise they are all bad.

The fact that decades later some of my former workers still make known having enjoyed to work under me may indicate that with the right (management) attitude it can work!

So What. We had a court case because a silly lazy girl who thought she could sit on her bum and also steal didnt like being sacked.

They said she had to be given "three warnings." The case cost thousands.
The fact is a thief is a thief. Another fact! sunshine is a lazy no good bludger doenst tell me I HAVE to employ her.

As I said IT COST US THOUSANDS.
No B is going to FORCE me to keep a thief and "pay them" to steal from my family and other staff.!

Your post is all about how nice a bloke you are.
Well we are nice to all our staff too!
So what
Have you brought them cars just because you thought they had a rough start? We did.
Have you paid thier air fares back home overseas because their mother was ill and they could not afford it?

We did.

The bottom line is that is why John Howard got RID of unfair dismissal laws!
We are the victims of the unions stupid laws.
Another thing- I dont why you would be surprised at a young bloke off the land being a good worker.
What do you mean even though he had been working on the land.
Tell you what country kids run miles around city kids every time.
I found that comment rather insulting.
Country kids usually are brought up old school.
You dont work 9 to 5 in the bush mate- You just work daylight to dark.
Thats the only union we ever had.
I repeat the unfair dismissual laws had to go because they were destroying good companies.
I for one are happy they are gone.
Belly you say labour will win and JH cant possibly.
Yeh we all know James Packer is building Casinos in China and Rudds interests are in china also.
That does not make it ok.
Didnt think much of Kerry because of his involvement to cruelty of animals in live exports.
Still its awful to see this one do just what the old fella would hate.

pale LABOR PARTY, LABOUR MOVEMENT just how it is spelled my posts are not about how good I think I am.
I hope they are about the thread title unions a difference exists.
A new poster tells me we should concentrate on bad unions not the good?
No not ever my intention.
I understand some workers are more trouble than they are worth.
I have an understanding some unions can not function without war fare.
I know with 100% certainty some bosses are just as bad as the worst unions.
I know the Anzac holiday or any public holiday pale is NOT YOUR PROPERTY! you have NO RIGHT to demand a worker on such a day must attend the march.
Workers can be your greatest asset but they are not your property.
The trade union movement post this sham government will be a changing different one than the past movement.
It will again have rights but the very best will use those rights with care and understanding.
Those who do not will fall, yes fail to continue to exist, even under Labor.
The Australian workforce is not radical.
Australia needs unions to think without them fairness and equity in the workplace could survive is foolish.
But now today a difference exists, pale you have never once separated your hate for unions into good and bad I will not debate the bad only but never step back from reality some idiots exist.

No body gets out of bed in the morning wishing their staff does not turn up to work.

Nobody gets out of bed wishing some low life in their staff steals.

Nobody has a biz that does not rely on good staff. A boss needs staff.

Nobody goes out of their way to upset staff because good staff are hard to get.

Good staff are treated like pure Gold.

Yup I am sure their are some rotters too. However there are plenty ofjobs so just leave and find another job. Simple.

I can comment on Anzac day if I like. Considering I am the bunny paying for hundreds to have Anzac day I reckon its fair I get a say "too".
See there you go again.
````````Telling me what I have to do.````````

Your all the same bully bully bully

You are saying for everyone to read - *I* MUST pay the wages of hundreds of people for Anzac day but I CANT have a say that I think its only reasonable those people attend a march?

No nothings changed your post is clear evidence of that!

Your mate Rudd cant even talk to Peter Beattie- one of his own!

The silly stwirp has put adds in papers etc to talk to Peter that way.
Now remember they are both on the same team= .

Then you tell me they are ready to run the country. I told you before they couldnt run a chook raffle.

Belly
Another thing. Dont worry about my spelling. I do that when i am rushed and cross. I understand someone has put a feather in your cap and offered you a meeting regarding your work with a small part to be played in one paricular union.
I understand you are not a bad person and that you want to help the types that cant or wont speak out for themselves.
I note you did not answer me about the bus drivers all been given a day off to go door knocking.
I am just wondering if you know what Rudd has agreed to.
Why on earth should I pay my staff to door knock for Rudd?
Not to mention our public transport sytem is in a big enough mess already.
No you dont reply to me regarding this crazy proposal of your friends.
Good God they even want us to pay nurses wages to door knock for them.
Did you even know about this?
I am not paying for a bunch of bus drivers to go door knocking
Second thoughts if they got in I would be wouldnt I.
I think I would have to leave the country.

What about the idea of getting all the meals on wheels people to badger our elderly with their scare tactics. Thats a discrace but no comment from you belly.
So you approve of Bus drivers and nurses being sent out to door knock at the countries expense do you.
Scarey Stuff.

Why is it an insult to refer to the (then) 16-year old kid?
He knocked on the gate and asked for a job telling me he just arrived in the country and never had worked with machinery, only with sheep. I explained if he passed a test I would hire him. I gave him a ruler and asked what was 1 inch. He showed it to me and I explained he was hired as the rest we would teach him.
Some of the workers immediately protested telling me the kid knew nothing and I explained that the better that was as then he had no bad habits either and it was up to them to make sure he learned it correct. Somehow I had great confidence in that kid and he proved me right as he was eager to learn and again within 6 months was better then the setter who had been doing it for 26 years!
To me, if a person asked for a job then to me they have generally the right attitude to work and that is the underlying requirement to get good workers.
Rather then to insult farm workers to the contrary my post was to compliment his ability to adapt in such excellent manner.

Sure, there can always be a worker who regardless of how good you do seek to abuse the system but you cannot blame all for the same.

In the 1960, I was living in a hotel and my earnings were too low to pay for it all, and so I asked the personal manager if the company (Cincinati) could come towards my hotel cost. They decided to contribute 50%. Ever since they did so I have applied the same understanding to workers, that if you look after your workers then generally they will look after you in return.
As I always made clear to the workers that without them I had no production and so we needed to work together. It has to work from both sides!

pale you are one of many reasons why we need unions.
Can you truly believe NO ONE WOULD TREAT HIS/HER WORKERS BADLY?
That good workers are always treated like gold?
That it is the right of a boss ,any boss, to tell a worker on ANY PUBLIC HOLIDAY HOW TO SPEND IT?
Anzac day brings true pain for so very many who we owe a great dept to.
Some of those returned service men and women have not once gone to a march, it would be painful.
You in a nothing but childlike way state they miss use the day?
Unions in my view are good and bad, some actions of some are ugly.
Some workers are good ,some great, some bad, yet you can not concede this is also true of bosses and the unions they are members of?
It sadly is true some country people , I clearly include you here.
Are unable to see the world as it is, entrenched in a self confidence that is miss placed that only they understand how things are.
I is my last post in this thread , further debate with you is pointless here you do not begine to understand fairness and equity.
Or that thoughts such as yours ,unable to focus on reality are the very reason post election conservative Australia will not rule in any state or federal arena.
And still they will blame the voters and yes unions for their own lack of understanding.

Belly, I agree with you, PALE's ranting posts have indeed shown why unions are needed. It has also shown the character, or lack of same, of half of Howard's supporters...judgmental, intolerant, hate-filled, selfish and determined to get and keep money, no matter the cost. The other half of Howard's supporters are just gullible, naive and easily conned. Unfortunately many people are concrete thinkers (not able to see the forest for the trees) and many of those don't think, just react emotionally and unpleasantly, to lies and spin. The rest of us are lateral thinkers (see the forest and the trees)and are able to see the big picture. God help Australia if Howard gets back in, the finalisation of the elected dictatorship and loss of democracy.

Gerrit, I've enjoyed your posts. They are well researched and thought out, another lateral thinker. You are so right about the illegal manipulations of the Howard government. To me it seems that even blind Freddy could see it, but sadly, many people are incapable. I've just finished reading 'Silencing Dissent.' I think you'd enjoy that book.

Like Belly, I'm not going to post anymore or even bother reading any further rantings from PALE. He has done all he can to ensure that he destroys rational debate. This is typical of the government's supporters and the Howard government. As I said previously, Howard supporters appear unable to communicate fairly, instead sinking to abusive ranting and raving. It's depressing to see so many Australians sink to that ranting and raving. There's always been a sub-culture of yobbo rednecks in Australia but to have this redneck culture become mainstream via the fascist government is even more depressing. I can only hope that there are enough Australians who have awakened and will vote for decency, humanitarianism and egalitarianism.

Ah Gentleman
Done in true labour style. Run Rabbits Run. Now to all of you I say- nobody would answer my simple question-
Which Was- Do you agree it is right to expect myself or yourselves to pay a days wages for bus drivers to go door knocking for labour?
A simple yes or no would have done.

I am certainly NOT a Howard Government supporter either.

I saw John Howard on the Gold Coast where we protested Live Animal Exports.
I understood why sercuitys required.
To be that close to somebody who does nothing about the barbaic cruelty to animals both by live animal exports and intensive farming is frustrating.
He knows Belly. The National Party know. They are liers to say the dont.
My only problem with your Buddy Rudd Belly- and this is the truth is hes not as smart as Howard. The of Fox Howard had he been given the same info we gave Rudd under similar circumstances would have handled it very differently.
Howard would have picked the publics mood about live exports especially as 60 miniutes did another doc on it and cashed in.

Yeh sure he would have told some porkies and pretended to be outraged while most probably assisting the evil trade in grants but he would have been too! smart to just ignore it and Run like your guy Rudd did.
Out of these posts I have received an email from your buddy Julia`s office.They seem to be spreading "the good word" of senator Bartletts speach re food labeling.- [ Interesting] - but a vote for the dems ISNT a vote for Animals because Labour dont give a dam about Animals.

Who knows guys if Julia wants to meet with Islamic leaders farmers together we might be able to get Kevin to look at this proposal. Its to be hoped Kevin and Julia are smarter than past advisors for every bodies sakes.
So you never know Belly we might be praising your buddies one day.
Lets see if Rudd REALLY could lead?