Bless you ABCD :) good try mate... clearly you have only recently been observing my posts.

Jizya.. yep..nominally that is a tax which 'people of the book' are required to pay to be exempt from military service in the Muslim army.

Thats the good news.

Now for the bad.

The amount is not stipulated in the Quran, so... the amount depends as much on the whim of the Caliph or.. the nearby terror gang (like in Egypt at the moment) when they extort it from the hapless and defenseless Christians and Jews.

But you seem to have glossed over one major point... you did not deny that it's fine to 'FIGHT' them.....until they are subdued.

This stands out like a country toilet in Islamic history right back to Mohammad himself, that he believed his calling was in fact to 'militarily subdue' non Muslims to bring in the rule of Allah.
The more serious question is.."Did they force conversions at the point of a sword?"

The standard Muslim answer is "no", but the answer from Islamic history is a resounding "yes".

Now at this point you are shrieking inside your brain "HAH! where is your evidence?" Ok..fair point.

It is not as though people were brought before Mohammed and a sword placed on their throats and the demand "Accept Islam now or die" was made..no..it was more circumspect than that.

I could give you many examples, but one will suffice.

Prince Ukaydir of the northern Arabian Christian town of Dumah. He was an ally (as in a vassal) to the Byzantine Emperor. i.e. he had a treaty with him.
Mohammad sent Kalid bin Al Waleed to 'change' his alliegance to the Muslim side.
1/ Waleeed murdered Hassan, Ukaydir's brother
2/ Sacked the city.
3/ Dragged Prince Ukaydir back to to Mohammad (with the image of his freshly slaughtered brother in his mind)
4/ Mohammed 'offers' him 'Islam' (or DEATH like his brother)
err..thats a choice ?

P.S. Ukaydir had not lifted a finger against the Muslims.

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MH_LM/campaign_of_tabuk_and_death_of_ibrahim.htm
Scroll to this heading: [Ibn al Walid's Campaign against Dumah]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy with assessments.. Anyway no one told me can you send messages to people via this? If so how?? BTW BOAZ I replied to others, you provided more interesting meat to discuss so it had become more of a discussion between me and you… anyway let me reply to what you said earlier

Jizya has nothing to do with military services, it’s a “charity” that people pay who aren’t muslims, for being in the “muslim” country ‘cos muslim pay the zakat they don’t need to pay Jizya. The amount won’t be unjust. That makes sense when you think of it, a book that is written over a 1000 years you'd expect value to change from then till now. Anyway it doesn’t say how much though it would work most likely to zakat, zakat is like 2.5% of your savings. Besides it doesn’t necessary have to be money, it’s something of value, it could be gold, it could be food, it could be anything. A law system would be set to inspect. The jizya is not for non muslims to be exempt of military the jizya provides them protection from the muslim army as they are in muslim land and the money, wealth, value is distributed to the needy- be it muslim or not.

Basically it could be seen as a form of tax, this tax gets distributed to the community, and they get protection from muslims from anyone attacking them. They have citizen rights just like the muslims..

Egypt is a bad example any middle eastern country is, looking through Islamic books none of them follow Islamic politics right, if not politics the law isn'tfollowed either. They're all corrupted within their own powers. They’re all losers oh well they’re the ones suffering now.

I don’t deny the fight, though you miss the whole point of the chapter, the chapter is in relation to those who break oaths, you can’t just take bits and pieces make it what you want it to be. Read from the started of the chapter to that point and you’ll understand what I mean.

Besides did you miss this verse “9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him….” As I said read the chapter you’ll understand what I mean.

Quran pretty much says each to their own choosing “2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things “

And all of chapter 109, read it and read the last verse of it 109:6

So this is what their book says, I don’t believe in conversion by the sword. And even if it did happen they did wrong against their own book and also if you look at Christianity same thing could be said…

Your evidence is weak, I mentioned this before your quoting hadiths. You know hadiths came AFTER the death of Mohammed so how can you even take it as reliable? Islam is based by the Quran not hadiths. Besides do you believe humans are fallible? If you do you have real issues. All people are sinners the best are those who ask for forgiveness and change and start doing good. Everyone does wrong in their life even you and me. Some more than others though that isn’t the point.

Dear ABCD thankyou for your considered response.

There are some weaknesses in your presentation which I need to highlight.

Chapter 9 is indeed 'including' reference to those who break treaties, but it is not exclusively about this.

IF.... that was the central point, applying to the whole chapter, then logic and reason require that 9:30 say as follows:

"Jews and Christians have broken their treaties with us, MAY ALLAH DESTROY THEM"

But what does it ACtually say ? "Jews believe Uzair is son of Allah, Christians believe Christ is son of Allah"... MAY ALLAH DESTROY THEM.

So, on any understanding, this is not about 'broken treaties' it is about 'core beliefs'. The Christians and Jews are to be destroyed on the grounds that they believe someone is Son of Allah, and this then takes them intot he Quranic category of "Those who associate partners with Allah" and of course to Mohammad, this was an awful sin.

My references to hadiths are only as 'supporting' evidence. Please don't try my patience (biff :) with the line "Islam is not based on them" my goodness... it is VERY much based on them as well as the Quran, and the list of hadiths in Muslim and Bukhari show many aspects of and guidlines for life for Muslims which are not found in other places. I recommend a careful reading of the introduction to the Hadith at this site, and you will see how these serious Muslims understand the Hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/smtintro.html
QUOTE:
Each report in his collection was checked for compatibility with the Qur'an, and the veracity of the chain of reporters had to be painstakingly established. Muslim's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet.
ENDQUOTE.

Finally, the Christians of Duma did not HAVE any treaty with the Muslims, so they broke nothing, they were allies of the Byzantines. Mohammads attack on them, simply showed that he considered all non Muslims who did not have a treat with him, as enemies to be attacked anytime.

Thanks for your reply. Well I can say I would need to study the text more to reply my knowledge is very much limited..

Anyway I understand what you mean, though it would be interesting to read their text the Quran without reference to hadith to see their approach of life. I have read bits still reading.. anyway

You say hadith is very much part of muslims lives, to some I would agree it is though I don't believe it is necessary. From my understanding of the Quran it isn't and those who follow hadiths are wrong but I guess the muslims would know better then again maybe not..

Thanks for the discussion, sorry to annoy you :P

enjoy your further research

Biiiiiiii

Why are we all wasting our time with the rights and wrongs of all religiouns whether it be Latter Day Saints or Jehovahs Witness or Catholic or Church of England they are all no different from each other it is al a man made conspiriacy to cloud the real issues of the class struggle. There is only one sincere caring religioun and that is Democratic Socialism when the tail wags the dog through committees. Karl Marx summed it all up in one sentence when he quoted " Religioun is the opium of the people."