Hi there SNAKE...

I'm pleased that you're finding debate of this Topic is proceeding reasonably cordially. As should all matters, chosen for debate in our parliament ? However I suspect your wish that our politicians conducted themselves in a more polite way, won't happen any time soon ?

Well I'll be ! Here he is, the great arbiter and guardian of our public consciousness, that sublime apologist for Muslim strategies, and OLO'S principal narcissist;...STEELEREDUX aka 'STEELIE' ! Now I've satisfied my daily need to taunt !

To those of you who oppose the concept of corporal punishment per se, I should think you'd not need to concern yourselves too much. I don't believe there's any government in the foreseeable future, who would need to visit upon any such suggestion. Similarly, that also applies to the issue of capital punishment.

This is despite what some of our more erudite 'shock jocks' might suggest (a referendum for the return of capital punishment). I believe there's not a snow ball's chance in hell, that such punishment would ever receive either public support, nor parliamentary assent ? In fact, even the concept of imprisonment will be slowly replaced some day (save for the most violent and dangerous of offenders), by more scientific measures ? If for no other reason but a fiscal imperative ?

Dear o sung wu,

You wrote;

“I'm pleased that you're finding debate of this Topic is proceeding reasonably cordially. As should all matters, chosen for debate in our parliament ? However I suspect your wish that our politicians conducted themselves in a more polite way, won't happen any time soon ?”

Then directly followed it with;

“Well I'll be ! Here he is, the great arbiter and guardian of our public consciousness, that sublime apologist for Muslim strategies, and OLO'S principal narcissist;...STEELEREDUX aka 'STEELIE' ! Now I've satisfied my daily need to taunt !”

Without even batting an eyelid.

Anyway thank you indeed for the good chuckle it elicited my friend. After a day cursing at rather troublesome motor vehicle it was welcome.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Indeed the prison system is barbaric and there are barbarians among us who wish it were more so. It is interesting that while corporeal punishment as part of a criminal sentence was discontinued in many western nations (albeit later than most in Australia and England) it was still employed within the prison system for crimes within the institution.

I suppose the argument of prison over flogging is two-fold. The first is that incarceration often is seen to offer protection for others within a society. Just as we quarantine those who are highly contagious such as 'Typhoid Mary' then those who are deemed a threat, because they have committed a crime, spend some time apart from society in an attempt to mitigate some of that risk.

Cont...

Cont...

The second is the impact on the person ordered to deliver the corporeal punishment. The following is from Wikipedia on the history of the Fremantle Prison;

“Staff disliked giving the lashings – in 1851, out of a total of 400 lashings ordered, 150 were remitted as the superintendent could not find anyone to undertake the task. The role was so disliked that inducements were offered, including extra pay or improved lodgings.”

In fact the history of flogging within the military of various countries is really interesting.

Britain was of course the prime proponent of this brutal practice taking it to insane lengths. Sentences of 1200 lashes 'around the fleet' were routinely given when 100 was the maximum allowed in other European armies, even this was still enough to kill a man.

“during the French Revolutionary Wars the French Army stopped floggings altogether. The King's German Legion (KGL), which were German units in British pay, did not flog. In one case, a British soldier on detached duty with the KGL was sentenced to be flogged, but the German commander refused to carry out the punishment. When the British 73rd Foot flogged a man in occupied France in 1814, disgusted French citizens protested against it.”
Wikipedia

It took nearly eighty years before the English navy would follow the French and ban the practice.

As an aside I do not think it is entirely coincidental that flogging found favour and longevity in nation whose societies are sexually repressed such as Victorian England and certain Islamic countries. The act of domination and causing pain through flogging on those who are rendered helpless has deep roots in sexual sadism. I suspect this is certainly at play to some degree within the modern proponents of this practice.

ConservativeHippy,

Obviously I meant to say that only swiftness and certainty have an effect.

That being said, there’s a lot that could be said in response to your suggestions for deterrence, but I’d like to address 2 because that’s a common suggestion, and the problem with it is that giving an offender no chance of an early parole provides them with no incentive to correct their ways or behave themselves during their incarceration.

Hasbeen,

I did say the “overall” crime rate. The crimes you’ve listed are assaults and as I’ve mentioned several times before on OLO, assaults are up; all other crimes are on the decline, causing a continual downward trend in the overall crime rate since the ‘70s. Some of the stats I’ve mentioned can be found at http://abs.gov.au.

But if you think that your own personal experience trumps decades of research and statistics to the point where you can invent conspiracy theories about academics, then you can convince yourself of anything and discussion with you is probably a waste of time. I’m sure your experiences with, or observations of, mandatory sentencing and chain gangs trumps 150 years of research on sentencing and the psychology of recidivism too.

o sung wu,

You keep mentioning “jelly judges”, but I had already addressed this here: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6557#196763.

A recent example was the relatively small sentences that Robert Hughes and Rolf Harris received because their crimes were committed when sentences for their offences were lighter.

As for the victims you keep mentioning, their needs are important, but so is our right not to become victims of re-offenders. No-one, in their rage, ever thinks of this - unless they’re arguing for the death penalty, of course. People tend to have very selective reasoning (as others have demonstrated here). Like I said before, we could lock them up forever, but that’s not without its problems either.

A J PHILIPPS...

I do tend to agree, the media do have a case to answer apropos their poor adherence to accuracy and dispassionate reporting. It does them no credit at all, nor does it reflect well on the efficacy of anything that's been stated within their commentary.

As a former case officer, it's not been my experience, where a victim or relatives of a victim consider any penalty imposed by the Court, has been excessive ? Rather, most are angered even bitterly dismayed, at the relatively lenient sentences that have been imposed ? Particularly for those crimes occasioned 'against the person' ? Still there's always been a substantially wide gulf, between that of academia and reality.

Your last paragraph, doesn't make a lot of sense to me at least ? Other than your last sentence with it's enlightened posit; '...we could lock them up forever, but that's not without problems...' or similar language ? Indeed, there would be significant problems, not the least of which, fiscal considerations.

Someone herein has made a profound statement, in part something about; '... with deep roots in sexual sadism...' and '...with modern proponents of this practice...' ? There lies a sharp intellect ?

I wonder if this vacuous individual who made this truly amazing affirmation, ever had to hold a weeping, utterly distraught 'tough' man ? After having just witnessed the offender grinning towards the stony faces of his ashamed relatives, after having received just 11years on top with a 6 NPP. Convicted for sexually brutalising, this distraught man's young son. Repeatedly imploring me, bring back the lash and similar language ! I suppose he's just another individual with those 'deep rooted issues of sexual sadism' ?

A J Phillips you are quite right, I have no faith in your reported research into crime statistics. I see far to much breaking & entering to believe it is reducing.

When I see 68 actual break & enter crimes by one criminal treated as a first offence, I have to wonder just how such garbage goes into the statistics. I also have to wonder just who is paying our magistrates, when such a crime spree attracts only a good behaviour bond.

When you can dismiss a large increase in assaults, the main crime injuring innocent people, you are obviously way out of touch with what is important to those who pay academic salaries.

If we the wage paying public no longer treat academic pronouncements with the respect they crave, they have no one but themselves to blame. If they had been a bit more public spirited & stopped the rorts by many of their colleges with the global warming scam, they may still have some respect. Having let so many obviously false claims through to the goal posts, academia will have to do much better for many years to regain our respect, & then more to regain out trust & belief.