Dear Divergence,

<<You and Yuyutsu are assuming that there is no problem if there is no armed invasion.>>

Why, the problem obviously exists - I just don't agree that using force to prevent people from coming is a legitimate solution.

It is quite acceptable to not accept unwanted immigrants into Australian society and not to grant them any social or economic incentives, but if they nevertheless wish to settle on the Australian continent, then we have no right to block them.

<<There is no way to reduce population growth without reducing immigration.>>

Why? Just drop all incentives to make babies. Phase out the family-benefits, then the free schooling, child-care and health-benefits: make it clear that having children is a luxury which Australia does not encourage.

<<You have to decide if the joys of diversity are worth it.>>

Probably not, but it's not about joys: it is perfectly OK to have a personal preference that those immigrants would never come, but it is not OK to act on that preference by denying them entry.

Yuyutsu “who is it that gives you such a right to perpetuate a bad culture? God perhaps?”

No, Man.
It is a commonly accepted principle in international law/ethics.

But that's “drivel”, right?
You only believe in Nietzschean/Darwinian individuals free-floating in a social vacuum.

“How can you possibly compare murder and robbery with peaceful immigration?”

The end result is the same.
We vanish, they take over.
That our leaders are *traitors* only makes it more evil.

“It's not the culture, it's the people”

They bring their culture with them, in their mindset/identity/memory, and are encouraged by the government to hold onto it like cement.

They could adopt a “Western” lifestyle where they already are if they wanted.
Japan has become a virtual “Western” nation in the last century, with almost no migration in or out of the country.

“The subject is culture, not ethnicity”

The two are intrinsically connected, or are you a complete moron?
There is no Turkish culture without Turks (the people) and vice versa.
Culture is what a mass of people share in common and identify with.

“And you are afraid of fair competition”

What is fair about one-way immigration?
They kicked Europeans out of their homelands, yet still want to leech of our success.

They wanted independence and got it. They rejected being part of the European world.
They can't have it both ways.

Your Nietzschean/Darwinian perspective should say “Survive or Fail on your own, losers!”

“blocking them out by force”

There is no “violence” or “force” in simply leaving things the way they are.

We didn't plant those people in the Third World.
They were born there.
If they want to blame anyone for their plight, they should blame their parents.

If we can legitimately deny immigrants “any social or economic incentives”, why not “block” them in the first place?
That would be more ethical than letting them in, then refusing them accommodation, work, food, etc.

“make it clear that having children is a luxury which Australia does not encourage “

But the Third World can breed like crazy, and we'll just let them all in!

Yuyutsu,

You have a curious view of human rights. All the land in Australia belongs to private individuals, corporations, or other non-government organisations, to various Aboriginal groups, or to the government, i.e., all of us. You (let alone some random foreigner) don't have the right to camp out on someone's private property or on public property without permission.

The large tracts of uninhabited land in Australia are uninhabited for excellent reasons. Most of Australia is desert, with very poor soil quality as well as a profound lack of water. Most of what isn't desert is semiarid rangeland, requiring perhaps 50 times as much land to raise a cow as a well watered coastal area. See these maps by Dr Chris Dixon of the CSIRO

http://www.australianpoet.com/boundless.html

Migrants mostly want to move to a developed country with a ready-made high standard of living. None would want to homestead in the Nullarbor. There is no more frontier. If people are poor, they will simply have to fix the aspects of their culture that are keeping them that way.

Foxy,
Thanks for adding the link, I meant to but missed it and the PC has been down since and am just catching up on discussion. It appears most points have been made and I notice each time this subject is raised there are less pro high immigration posts. Need for polys to get the message.

I worry about high house prices, especially for young people, congestion and long queues, loss of good agricultural land. But do not think changes will come soon as major parties are in the pockets of big business.

I've always imagined there must be billboard posters around Afghanistan, advertisements by people traffickers, picturing the deserted Australian outback and herds of 'free' camels that reads: Paradise, We Get You There Safely.

Yuyutsu, you are obviously not one of us.

You have been allowed to come here, & now want to give away our country.

Well mind your own business. I'm not about to let you, or anyone else, local or foreign, giveaway my or my kids heritage to anyone.

My father & 2 grand fathers, have fought for this country, & I, my son, & a son in law have all served ready to defend it if necessary.

It does pain me that in doing so we are also defending the likes of you, who would give it to anyone, despite them having done nothing for it.

If others want a society like ours, or as it was a couple of decades back, let them build their own. If they won't build their own, they definitely don't deserve to share one that others have built, often at great cost.

I will fight you & them to keep them out.