Earlier this year I read John Tainter's book "The Collapse of Complex Societies".
He believes that most societies collapse because of declining net product.
I am trying to remember his exact phrase, but it was in fact the same as what we know
as ERoEI or Energy Return on Energy Invested, except he applied it to the whole
economy and energy was not considered separately.
Basically their overheads became too great and sapped their strength.

The book is in some libraries in Sydney & my local library obtained it from Waverly
council library. Anyone who really wants to understand what is going on should read
this book. He covers many civilisations. Some collapsed for different reasons but he
states that longer lasting societies collapse for the reasons they just could not continue
as previously and decline slowly.
Rome took more than two hundred years to shut up shop.
It was an interesting book although it was not a book to read before bed.

I found the phrasing Tainter used in his book.
>
and that societies collapse when their investments in social complexity and their
"energy subsidies" reach a point of diminishing marginal returns.
<
From memory I don't think "energy subsidies" referred specifically to energy but to the
effort in keeping the society going.

Yes Bazz, Rome degenerated to a complete welfare society, with most of the citizens being fed & entertained by the state.

We are definitely on our way, like most western societies.

Once the smarties discover they can vote, rather than work for a living, the end is coming. It is not a matter of if but when the final collapse will be.

Dear Hippie,

<<yet they arrive with nothing and have no support network.>>

Not necessarily, they could possibly have support from individuals, NGO's or churches, just not from the state.

<<they walk toward the city and as night falls find a bridge to sleep under>>

They would not be allowed into cities unless invited, in which case they would have the status of pets, so those inviting them are responsible that they don't disturb the peace.

<<Your option will either lead to these people being exploited or a percentage of them committing crimes just to survive.>>

What's wrong with being exploited? they knew they would yet they came anyway. As for crime, following the principle that humans should not be treated worse than animals, If a dingo or crocodile enters a city endangering lives, then they are euthanased, in accordance with the best practices of the RSPCA.

<<Your solution is actually worse than turning them away at the border and every bit as unethical.>>

If you built a city and invested in the land to improve it, then it's not unethical to protect your investment. That is different regarding a whole continent, largely undeveloped.

<<I do not believe turning potential undesirable immigrants at the border is unethical. It's our border, our country and our right to make decisions about who we accept.>>

So you believe that you own the border and this whole continent: why? because 250 years ago England had better ships and better arms so it could drive off all others? No, humans do not own God's land, yet you do own your improvements and may defend them, even by denying others access to their location if that's what it takes.

Dear Shockadelic,

<<Where is *my* choice in having my neighbourhood/workplace/country radically transformed into something unrecognisable?>>

You (and your neighbours) own your neighbourhood and your workplace because you've poured all your sweat into it, but you cannot say the same about a whole country, how less so a whole continent such as Australia.

This is not even about immigrants: it may well occur that groups of people who lived in your country for generations now want to change. What right have you to stop them?

<<I can choose to move to an "White" social space only while they still EXIST.>>

You wouldn't need to because nobody is allowed to change your reasonable space to non-white without your consent.

<<but someone born and bred a Turk CANNOT genuinely become a Mexican, Swede or Zulu.>>

If they genuinely change their identity, then they are usually accepted with open arms. This is my experience. Sure, they may not know as much so it may take decades to learn, starting like children, but see for example Sheikh Nur Keller, born Catholic American, but accepted as a Muslim religious leader: http://untotheone.com/articles/bio/sheikh-nuh-keller-brief-biography/

<<The most aggressive and brutal usually wins such competitions.>>

Really? Would you ever agree to become a Muslim because it's aggressive?
Also, who is to say that in Australia the Western culture is not aggressive? I find it such, yet I'm not interested.

<<They are changing our society.>>

Only if you allow them. Entering the continent should not be a ticket into Australian society.

<<What about what *we* want, the people already living here?>>

Certain wishes are legitimate, others not.

I'm sorry Yuyutsu, please excuse my bluntness but it has to be said.

Your replies use the same flawed logic; you haven't got a valid or even sensible argument; in fact your whole argument is simply pie-in-sky.

You advocate letting anyone who wants to come across our border in, yet in the same breath say if the cities don't invite them they will not be allowed to enter. Somewhat contradictory isn't it?

And of course there may be the occasional person or family that gain financial assistance from an Australian resident or welfare group, but if the word is out the borders are open to all arrivals you'll have exactly the same situation Italy faces everyday from African's crossing the Mediterranean.

You can say no one has the right to own land, it all belongs to God but that doesn't mean anything in the context of the world we live in and you cannot change it by wishing it away. Deferring the land ownership to a Higher Source is a cop out that only the looney swallow. By the way - do you now or have you ever owned property?

As a participating member of Australian society which I'll qualify as (including but not limited to) the land we live on, the people within that space, and the culture of those people, I have every right to use the term 'our border', as do you and everyone else who is Australian.

Simply put Yuyutsu - Get Real!