Good afternoon to you G'day BRUCE...

I'm very sorry, I was referring to my old mate ONTHEBEACH, it was he that gave me a 'bit of a serve', well deserved too I reluctantly admit ! That said I do agree with your summation that you and I are of similar circumstances ? You with a long history of helping many of life's less fortunate, and myself, sort of in a similar role, but not nearly as appreciated as you and your compassionate cohorts ?

Still, over the years I would like to think we were trying to do the right thing by the community. Whether the community as a whole recognised our assistance, who can tell ? We've had to deal with some mighty strange folk over the years ? I was I/C of a suicide enquiry, a young twenty year old, living at home, used his Dad's shotgun on himself, while sitting on the household lavatory. There was no question that it was suicide, still the Coroner had to process the death, as normal.

The funny part being, as I said, the poor lad, used his Dad's 'el cheapo' single barrel 12G, a 'Boito' ? A real 'cheap and nasty' piece. Anyway, at the conclusion of all evidence the Coroner gave his finding and directed that all property that I'd originally seized, be returned to the rightful owner. You wouldn't believe it, but the father of the deceased lad, wanted his shotgun returned to him ! The gun, his son used to kill himself with. Believe me it wasn't a pretty sight, the son placed the barrel in his mouth and pulled the trigger, leaving most of his brain matter over the toilet wall behind him ! And his stupid father wanted the gun back ! It'd be only worth about fifty buck if that ! Go figure, G'day BRUCE, you sure get some strange ones ? Nice to speak with you ol' man !

Personal motives and animals? Not so sure about that.

However there are plenty of instances where animals kill and it is difficult to argue that it served a survival purpose, eg cats (they hate those introduced Indonesian Barking Geckos for instance), chimpanzees and elephants.

Come out on farms especially bordering National Parks and I will show you evidence of wild dogs killing sprees of farm animals.

Just random examples, and I could add that too of humans intervening to try to stop the killing.

Foxy, "In the industrialised countries of the world, particularly in the West, we tend to think of people as being "naturally" self-seeking, selfish, competititive, and even agressive"

Not so sure about that either. Maybe that depends on whose (political) eyes are used. While the behaviour of humans presents paradoxes (Shakespeare gives plenty of examples), I reckon there is abundant evidence that in both West and East (South too to include Australia) that humans are universally regarded as noble creations.

Forget the political commentators and others with a secondary agenda and go to the poets who usually have clearer, deeper sight and without those 'goggles' that affect so many social commentators (sadly in the human sciences too, where they take a lot of liberties with their claimed 'scientific research').

Foxy>> For example, a
substantial majority of people seem to agree with the
statement - "Human nature being what it is, there will
always be wars and conflict."<<

Foxy dear, there is a great deal of truth to that statement, but does it describe the majority or just a minority with the power to make the decision. How many wars would we have fought if every government had to call a plebiscite on the issue......certainly not as many I would surmise?

One truism regarding war is that the young don’t start them, although without them there would be no war. Wars are started by the mature and powerful, which detracts from my first post to OSW, in which I stated that a longer life span would find a society that matured away from such senseless destruction.

But I still think we have a mind that revalue’s the worth of the physical things against people in our lives as we get older, it regauges everything and everybody in our life against time left.........and people invariably win over possessions at the end.

About the native peoples, I found that our own native Aussies have a recurring theme in many of their Dreamtime stories, and that is envy....this entity saw that one with something the first did not have....from the two humanity destroyers, greed and envy, if one could go it would be envy.....that society knew the enemy....but that’s our nature Foxy dear but if we lived longer our minds would grow out of it.

OTB>> Come out on farms especially bordering National Parks and I will show you evidence of wild dogs killing sprees of farm animals.

Beg to differ mate...pack mentality...not a personal decision, but one driven from the DNA of a pack predator.....call it practice with an adrenaline boost.

Hi (again) SONOFGLOIN...

What you're saying is, 'size' per se is irrelevant ? You juxtapose the whale and the ant as an example ? Your point on killing, other than as a food source and as a defensive measure, is excellent ! And I have absolutely no answer in which to oppose you ! We humans are singularly the most treacherous and dangerous, of all living species ? And to be even more finite, the male of the species, by far, the worst !

o sung wu,

It is an interesting difference between the sexes that men might admonish each other out of respect where there is a risk one might be selling himself short or unfairly criticisng himself (for instances), whereas women in similar situations seem to use huge ladles of gooey, over-sweet chocolate flattery for the same purpose.

Men are rational first and last, preferring the scientific proof as fact.

Maybe though sometimes we might be better served by using some feminine intuition instead of being so hard on ourselves. For example, while there is no evidence of anything outside of the life we experience, we (men) should not be so sure and limiting to assume that the senses we use (and the tools as well) can test for everything. Maybe sometimes it is better to sit watching the stars and feel, knowing that all may not be revealed until the final curtain and probably after that.

I was trying to remember something Ralph Waldo Emerson said about the waste of time in getting hung up on the meaning of life (and the afterlife). Living in a world of pain ATM (accident, not car, during the wild storm the other day) and a screen and keying is hard enough. So I have given up the search for the quote sorry, but can I encourage you to read some Emerson? Google coughed this up and it is a start, but I do not think you need lessons, but a reminder of what you (and we) already know inside,

http://www.lifeoptimizer.org/2010/01/15/essential-life-lessons-from-ralph-waldo-emerson/

OSW>> What you're saying is, 'size' per se is irrelevant ? You juxtapose the whale and the ant as an example <<

OSW, my response of "find a creature other than us that kills for personal reasons" was in reply to this thought from Pesky, it's his whale and ant:

"Sonofgloin, regarding what you call our unique consciousness: It is indeed unique, just like the consciousness of a whale is unique, the consciousness of an ant is unique, the consciousness of a bird is unique and the consciousness of any alien life would also be unique"