Billions come into this world, most will live their three score and ten, some more, many less, and then we all must die. What is the point of it all, and for what purpose ?

There are those of you who have a religious belief, therefore I guess your have an explanation ? There are others, who have no clear idea or opinion because of their agnosticism, to this our biggest and most impenetrable question. And finally there's a growing number of people who are inveterate atheists, who believe in nothing, and endeavour to enjoy the moment while they can !

Why are we born at all, only to die ? Many have a reasonably happy life, save for the usual,'ups and downs'. While a few, sail through life often without a care in the world, a life of 'milk and honey'. But there are many more, who do it really tough ! Right from their birth, until their death. Living for them amounts to a life of abject misery. Many are from the Sub-Continent, Africa, Central America. However, there's not a country in the world who don't have their share of folk who live in misery, despite a bountiful economy.

What amazes me, the most desperate, the poorest, the lonely, the infirm, most believe in a God ? I suspect they've got nothing else better going for them, so why not ? If God does exist, why on earth does he allow all this inequality, partiality and destitution, to pervade his precious world ? It's little wonder he's losing many of his devotees ?

As a youngster and teenager, I was a regular at our local Anglican Church, and a believer of sorts ? However, when I joined the ARA, and in a faraway place, 'behind' the business end of the legendary M18A1 Claymore, I discovered empirical evidence that God didn't exist. How could he, to permit this atrocity to occur ?

Which brings me back to my initial question. What is the point of being born, when we all must ultimately die ?

o sung wu,

Quite a profound question - and I'll give some thought to a more fulsome response later some time.

But for now, I'm looking at a rose I picked yesterday and put in a vase. It's yellow, beautiful..by tonight it will be fully blown and in full scent.

Within the next couple of days it will be withering and ready for the compost.

More precious because of its fleeting existence.

O sung Wu: What's the point of it all ?

Why does there have to be a Point?

Get in touch with Mates4Mates, or Beyond Blue, Mate. NOW!

(Q) What has 750 balls & fuc#$ VC's? (A) Claymore.

I was at the lecture when Lenny lost his legs at A Coy, 2RAR. in 64.

O sung Wu: a few, sail through life often without a care in the world, a life of 'milk and honey'. But there are many more, who do it really tough ! Right from their birth, until their death.

There are those that would keep you down. Like the Popular/unpopular kids in school. It doesn't stop in school. I have come to the conclusion though, it has to do with the choices WE make in life.

O sung Wu: the most desperate, the poorest, the lonely, the infirm, most believe in a God ? I suspect they've got nothing else better going for them, so why not ?

I agree & the Religious Organizations don't help either. They like to have Control of the Masses & hopelessness of the Masses is fodder for these organizations. That's where they get their money from to build churches to look after the "Spiritual" needs of the Poor.

o sung wu,

We are born because our parents wished to carry on their genes.

You did not have a choice in the matter.

Having to die is a shame but having been born, what is the alternative?

Carry on life as best you can.

Help as many people to improve their lives.

Count your blessing everyday.

There is no god, do not expect one to answer prayers.

o sung wu,

Which brings me back to my initial question. What is the point of being born, when we all must ultimately die ?

Your conclusion that God does not exist because terrible evil exist in the world I believe is seriously flawed. It is true that it is a major stumbling block to belief to many. In many ways there is as much proof that their is a devil than there is God. Most humans won't ever admit being influenced by evil even know evidence abounds that they are. Moral laws are written on our consience and every honest person knows that all of us broken those laws to different degrees. From stealing as a kid to killing ones own baby. Only self righteous people (evil in itself) deny that they have broken the laws of conscience.

The consequences of evil is suffering and not always the person who did the act (innocent unborn baby or woman raped). You might be right to blame God for giving man a free choice however you would value your right to free choice above anything. Love itself is impossible without free choice.

Our divine purpose is hidden by sin (evil). God sent His Son Christ to deal with the evil in men's hearts thereby allowing them to see His purpose for their life. This is explained clearly in the Scriptures.

There was and is only One man who never violated His conscience and did no evil. He spoke much about eternal life. If He lied like the rest of us His words are useless. He however was and is truth and love personified.

Dear O Sung Wu,

This question is impossible to answer because it asserts an untruth.

We are neither born, nor ever die - only our bodies are born and die they must.

o sung wu,

By now you would be aware of the onset of melancholy. Just get out and do something, preferably a comely young woman, but failing that get out of the house anyhow.

People used to meet out in the street, but mass produced cars took over that social space.

The mainstream churches offer social contact. Spirituality is an inside experience. Rolling up at the church doesn't hurt, the congregation are meeting their social/support needs too.

The "point" of existence is existence itself.
Whenever and however Life began, it does now exist, and despite the addictive/attractive old beliefs in a Higher Being, a leftover from our ignorant and fearful past, there really is no Higher Purpose, we are simply the latest carriers of our genes and have no other reason to exist than to create the next generation of carriers, "and that's all she wrote".
That may not suit our egos but it is a fact.
Those who fail to do so are existentially irrelevant, also-rans in the great race of Life, other than in how they affect those who do create the new Life.
I cannot help but think that if everyone could accept this simple truth then the world would be a far better place, and a far happier one, the search for/belief in a higher purpose has led to most of the suffering in out history, and current condition.

Dear Bruce,

<<the search for/belief in a higher purpose has led to most of the suffering in out history, and current condition.>>

Maybe, Maybe not, but one thing it surely does is to compete with the search for a lower purpose.

<<I cannot help but think that if everyone could accept this simple truth then the world would be a far better place, and a far happier one>>

That lower purpose has already increased this planet's population to over 7.2 billion humans. Just imagine what would happen if everyone accepted this "simple truth" and procreated even more, like rabbits... This is not a better world, nor will it end happily.

"Lower purpose" would seem to me to be meaningless in this context, no-one who isn't mentally disturbed thinks of such things as real surely?
What you thus attribute I see as merely our failings as a species, our "Intelligence" failing to deal with our genetic heritage.
I'm not advocating ever-increasing populations, far from it, I merely posit that continuing to exist requires babies to be born, that's somewhat self-obvious isn't it?
Humanity is the same as any other species of life, the more young that survive the more the population grows, the less resources there are to share and the meaner the resultant competition becomes, that's just "the nature of the beast" unfortunately.
We have "progressed" to where natural forces no longer eliminate a significant proportion of our young, we cannot supply endless resources to support this growth and are thus in a situation where we must either limit births or accept societal breakdown and environmental collapse, that too is just "the nature of the beast".
The universe doesn't care, we have no intrinsic "right" to exist, we either accept some sort of limitations or we will inevitable cease to exist, completely or certainly in the fashion we now see as "normal".
Mother Nature has a tendency to right imbalances, usually harshly, and we are just begging for her to STOMP on us by the way we are currently going, and TBH, I can't realistically see us changing in time to forestall her, can you?
If Humanity survives the next thousand years or so at all I foresee our times becoming a semi-mythical "Golden Age", one where our Hubris destroyed all we had achieved.

The body is what dna uses, to pass itself from generation to generation.

‘morning o-sung-wu,

An interesting philosophical question, seems like you are at a point where you recognize your mortality. Unfortunately, it seems the only one of the 4.2 million biological life forms on this planet is capable of asking that question?

It’s hardly democratic that we get to both ask the question and answer it on behalf of the other 4.19 million life forms?

As to the question of “purpose”, this is a product of our intellectual awareness and is a valid but irrelevant question, except as an intellectual excercise. It should be interesting to see some of the responses.

For me I believe in immortality. My interpretation of this is that we live on through our children, by the values we impart to them, the quality our interaction with other humans, our contributions to our society and through meaningful education. These are all part of the legacy we leave behind when we shuffle of as dust.

I don’t believe we should read more into our very temporary existence, other than we are a product of the ability of our universe to convert energy into matter.

The really neat thing is that when we do return to stardust, we will never even know.

We're born, we live, and then we die. What's
the point?

The point is entirely up to us.

It is up to us whether we bemoan or enjoy the
interval between these two events.

We can enjoy life to its utmost by taking
responsibility for the way we live, the way
we look at the world, how we perceive life -
either as miserable or as wonderful. The choice
resides in us as individuals.

You know the answer don't you o sung wu? You're only asking this to see how many others do.

This of course is recruit school. It is a tough one. Only very few will graduate, & pass on to real life. The rest are bound for the compost heap, to fertilise the next generation of recruits.

I don't think very many are here because their parents wanted to pass on their genes. Most parents were just having a bit of pleasure not knowing we were waiting to grab their genes, & leap into their lives as a by product of that pleasure.

Yep sex is a con job to make us careless with our genes, so those ankle biters can grab them.

Just be glad your not a Muslim mate. If those poor fools get through recruit school they have 72 insatiable virgins to negotiate, before they can move on

"What's the point of it all?' o sung wu...

At one level, being self-aware enough to ask "What's the point of it all?" and simultaneously being self-aware enough to not expect an entirely adequate answer.

Why not strive to enjoy the journey through life maximising your own satisfaction whilst minimising any distress or dissatisfaction to others?

You can leave answering the 'big picture' questions until after your life... if you feel any need to do so at that stage.

The 'purpose' cannot be told, it must be experienced. Not everyone will get this, possibly most won't. Yuyutsu knows.

There are regulars on OLO who denounce all religion as mechanisms to control the masses. There is also a tendency to portray the followers are simple ignoramuses', brainwashed or unable to understand science provides all the answers.

The denouncers are generally referring to the institution of western religions, the dogmas, the illogical myths, as well as wars and corruptions conducted by the religious. Some denounce all things spiritual or anyone who holds a belief in higher forces and universal truths influencing our experience or reason for being.

I don't buy the literal translations, stories, myths and prudishness of the Western religions. However Buddhism, Taoism and the teachings of the ancients in Hinduism offer an understanding of the universe that is very closely aligned to quantum physics.

When reading anyone's ramblings about how bad all religions are, especially those who become quite hateful in their criticism, I don't see much difference, accept for the perspective, of the religions they are criticising. The 'I'm right, they are wrong' stance is equally ill informed, closed, and limits one's ability to grow or experience life in a way they cannot imagine.

Even if you are Stephen Hawking, just because you say there is not a God cannot take away the 'truth' another person experienced 'in the presence of God.' Sure, one can say the other's experience was a hallucination, a psychotic episode, or whatever; but that does not negate other realities or states of mind are possible to attain.

The Eastern philosophies and teachings offer a way for individuals to find their true self, increase their potential, reach a better head space, and even Enlightenment. To understand and/or practice the Eastern teachings one does not need to join a religion or even seek out a teacher, though the latter may help speed the process.

In all religions, the followers and the hierarchy rarely achieve the potential of the teachings and therefore provide fodder for anti-theists determined to make a case.

G'day there JAYB...

Those three innocuous little words; 'Front Toward Enemy' as if you'd need to be told, for Christ sake ! You've got an amazing memory there JAYB, still our small friend (M18A1) is a hard piece of apparatus to forget I suspect ? Once deployed, never forgotten. Nah, it's cool ol' mate, and thanks for asking by the way. Those delicious little 'jelly bean' have been doing their job, as well as the crew at the VVCS. As you age it doesn't seem to get any easier though ? Recently, we had a look through the little museum they have down near Philip Island, in Victoria ? It's my understanding the place is run entirely by Assoc. members ? Worth a look, if you'd never seen it before JAYB.

Your last paragraph was spot on ! The more misery and hopelessness there is, does seem to provide plenty of additional work for those of the cloth ! It's to be hoped the latest batch of 'Saturdays an' Sundays' they've sent over to Iraq, remain well clear of those murderous bastards, we don't wish to overwork the Padre's too ?

Did any of you see Stephan Hawkins on SBS on Monday night.
He gave you the answer. Yes it is 42 !
He says he has proved there is no God, or Allah, because the big bang was simply the
result of the laws of physics and there was no God to start the big bang because there
was NO BEFORE !
There was no time before the big bang.

So were are because of the laws of physics and chaos theory, so enjoy it !

What's the point of it all? Well, it's interesting that o sung wu applied the question only to our species, almost as to suggest that the answer does not apply to other species, nor to all the materials that constitute planets, suns and everything else. That type of reasoning has a basis in ancient superstition (religions), where it is believed only humans are "special" and thus at the centre of the plan of a god creature, or god creatures.

The fact is that 6 billion humans are no more special than 6 billion lumps of rock, or 6 billion insects, or 6 billion rays of light etc. The point of us being here is no different than the point of anything and everything being here. The point of us being here is that we are no more, or no less, a part of nature than anything else. We're here because of the processes of nature.

There's nothing "special" about us. The belief that we're special and at the centre of some grand supernatural plan, is merely a belief from the ancient religious superstitions like Islam and Judaism etc.

Thank you all for your most edifying and revealing reponse's to this plainly absurd Topic ?

It was BAZZ I think who said, he'd recently heard Stephan HAWKINS declare unequivocally, there is no God ? And there are several amongst us who harbour that exact same belief, PONDE and G'DAY BRUCE are two such individuals. And I do recognise that Mr HAWKINS is considered to be one of the world's most eminent scientist. As such, many of us would readily defer to much of what he says, given his immense intellect, notwithstanding the limitations of his Motor Neuron disease ? But how would he and others, possibly know ?

While there are others amongst us (RUNNER and a few more) who would strongly disagree with the above statement (and their views are just as meritorious as those of Mr HAWKINS). I honestly believe they have a genuine belief in the existence of a Christian God ! And I suspect they acquire appreciable contentment from that belief ! However with respect to them, how would they know, where's the evidence ?

Others herein;... SPINDOC, WM TREVOR, POIROT, YUYUTSU, ONTHEBEACH, YABBY, FOXY and CONSERVATIVE HIPPY, all of whom, regularly contribute to this august Site, seem to be neither believers or unbelievers. They have their own particular philosophical approach to their own existence and their ultimately mortality. All seem to be content, quite settled, even optimistic with their lives and futures, as such ? I'm sorry, if I've misunderstood or misread any of your comments thus far, relating to this topic ?

Finally, my old mate HASBEEN is to my way of thinking, the only genuine arch-pragmatists within this eminent group of contributors ? His basic take of life in general, is philosophically fundamental. Solid as a rock. Plain and simple, even unsophisticated ! With HASBEEN, what you see, is what you get ! Reliable, dependable and steadfast. Muck around with him, you'll soon end up on your arse. Typical Navy bod.

Thank you all.

OSU: You've got an amazing memory.

Hard to forget when you were right there when it went off.

Sgt. Lenny little legs. (I can't think of his last name for the life of me, at the moment)

He was giving a lecture on the M18A1 when I came through A Coy lines from D Company 2 RAR in the old lines. I was taking my Orders from Ingleburn up to Bull $#!t Castle. I stopped to listen for a while. He was on the veranda of the Barracks & the Company was sitting on the ground facing the building. He was standing over it when it went off. The blast blew his legs off & the 750 ball bearings went over everyone's head. I was directly off to the side of it, about 10 metres away.

That Claymore had done the rounds of all the Commands & Canberra Head Quarters painted white & marked "Inert." All the Big Wheels had played around with it for months before it was released to a Unit.

Anyway mate it seems like you're having a bit of a downer at the moment. Go & have a talk to some mates you served with or anyone that did a tour. That's what we're here for & we'll help.

'morning Foxy,

It's interesting that some believe in what we leave as a legacy as important, whilst others It as what we can get out of society?

Spindoc says "For me I believe in immortality. My interpretation of this is that we live on through our children, by the values we impart to them, the quality our interaction with other humans, our contributions to our society and through meaningful education. These are all part of the legacy we leave behind when we shuffle of as dust."

For foxy is is an internalised "what's in it for me" perspective.

"It is up to us whether we bemoan or enjoy the
interval between these two events.

We can enjoy life to its utmost by taking
responsibility for the way we live, the way
we look at the world, how we perceive life -
either as miserable or as wonderful. The choice
resides in us as individuals."

We, we, we, we, us and our choice? What about "others" Foxy?

Foxy, here's an old Scottish one that came from my Grandfather.

When you want your chickens to lay
Some eggs, for tonight
March around the house & play
Your Grandfathers Bagpipes.

Except I used to say "Magpies!" No, Bagpipes, "No, Magpies!" I was 4.

Dear spindoc,

I'm sorry that you seem to have misunderstood
what I was trying to say.

What I was referring to was that human beings have
a free will. We have the freedom to choose how
we perceive the world around us. We may or may
not be able to change the world to our entire
liking but we have the freedom to perceive the
world in any way we chose. We can say life is
terrible and ugly, or we can say it is beautiful
and enjoyable. We can enjoy life to its
utmost by taking responsibility for the way we look
at the world, how we perceive life - either as
miserable or as wonderful - the choice resides in us
as individuals. In other words it is up to us to
bemoan or enjoy the interval between being born and
dieing. It is up to us what we make of our lives,
and how we view life in general. It is up to us.

As far as the legacy of what we leave our children
goes - that is a separate issue. I have always
tried to surround my children with a sturdy
sensibility, a world view, and I tried to make it
different from the "Me" mentality of modern culture.

What I consider important- is the content of my children's
hearts and minds, or what is often described as character.
When we say, "It's what's inside that counts, we speak a
simple but profound truth. Our job as parents is to try
to raise a decent human being. Thankfully, my husband and
I have succeeded with both our sons - of whom we are very,
very proud.

I hope that this clarifies things for you just a tad
spindoc and I am very flattered that you cared enough
to ask.

Thanks for that.

BTW: As you know from my posting records on this forum -
I care and worry about "others," very, very, much.
And in my experience most people
believe in the "basics" like respect, loyalty, and a sense of
fair play

Dear Jayb.,

I certainly could have used the bag-pipes
when it was my turn to feed the chooks.
I was eight years old and dad gave me that job
after I got home from school. Well I hated it
not only because I hated mixing up the mush
but then upon entering the chook's enclosure -
there was this feisty rooster who had it in
for me and would attack me.

Bag-pipes just might have scared the living daylights
out of him. He sure scared the daylights out of me.

Dear O Sung Wu,

This is especially for you, to cheer you up:

"As beautiful as the most awesome of sunsets
As vast as a clear, cloudless sky,
As bright as the first twinkling star of
the evening,
As rare as a jewelled butterfly ...
As wondrous as blossoms unfolding their
splendour,
As wise as the tallest trees,
As grand as the mountains that reach to
the heavens,
As free as a lighthearted breeze -
You're the best of God's gifts -
His most precious creation -
A one-of-a-kind, perfect you!
And in this discussion is a time to give
thanks and remember
That you are a miracle, too."

You know how it is JAYB, the ebbs and flows ? Good idea though, having a chat with blokes who know what you're talking about. Thanks again mate ! An aside, why ever do they call a deployment, 'a tour' ? It's almost like going on a holiday ? A quiet Sunday afternoon drive in an APC, terrific ! A nice drive up to the Long Hai's for a BBQ perhaps ?

CONSERVATIVE HIPPIE...

There are many people who choose to follow some of the more traditional Eastern religions, like the Buddhists as an example. A feature of the Buddhist philosophy that I find appealing is their reliance of generating a sense of real calm and quiet. They try to inculcate into the practices of devotees, various methods of quietening and calming of the mind. Most, start with a head full of worry and anxiety, and by the time they finish, they reckon they feel completely relaxed ! I'd give my right arm to learn that skill.

A female colleague some 18-20 years ago now, who was a strong supporter of yoga and Buddhist mental health practices, 'tried' to teach me the various strategies of relaxation. But I found I was hopeless at that sort of stuff ?

Further, the Buddhists wrote a compilation titled; the 'Book of the Dead'. Where they sought to explain the various spiritual journeys a human being took, post his death. A type of reincarnation, almost a circulatory process of; birth, living, and death. Then to re-commence the same process over again ? Truly fascinating stuff, but do I personally believe in it ? I dunno, I'm not sure 'hand on heart' if I believe in anything to be perfectly honest ?

Thank you FOXY, a lovely verse. We spoke of poetry a few months ago, and most agreed that a well written poem tended to 'cut to the chase' as it were, similar to yours now, again thank you so much.

O Sung wu

' However with respect to them, how would they know, where's the evidence ?

there are numerous books written with different people including lawyers and scientist looking at the evidence as to Christ's resurrection. There are also the likes of John Lennox (Professor of Mathematics Oxford) and many others with intellects at least that of Hawkins who believe in Christ and His claims.

At the end of the day it is faith to believe what someone says. For me to trust a man who I believe never lied or a self interested scientist who also displays great faith is a no brainer.

The old saying that believing is seeing proves true with Christ. Everywhere you look speaks of design, Creator and order. Those who want to see before believing will always remain blind despite the ever changing pseudo science explanations.

Yeah runner,..I've always wondered how you would explain the constant mutations of something like a flu virus - if "everything" is "designed" by a higher entity?

But, talking of whether there's a point to being born, living, etc. I'm not sure there has to be a point - except that humans prefer it. We find it difficult to abide things that don't appear to have a point.

I've actually tried a number of times to grapple with Christianity...but I can't quite get my reason to allow me to plunge into it. It just won't let me. That's not to say that I don't have a kind of leaning to spirituality, because I do - and I tend to think all the great religious tenets point to the same end, whether it be called God or Nirvana or (in the Tao) The Way.

I also believe that the simple faith of say medieval peasants wasn't such a bad thing. They tussled with their realities and were guided by the tenets that ruled their time.

As Ivan Illich wrote:

"Traditional society was more like a set of concentric circles of meaningful structures, while modern man must learn how to find meaning in many structures to which he is only marginally related. In the village, language and architecture and work and religion and family customs were consistent with one another, mutually explanatory and reinforcing. To grow into one implied a growth into others..."

We think we're so much better off with our superior knowledge...however, there is still no answer to "why" - and we can't help demanding that there should be?

Psychologically, it leaves us in a bind.

Ahhh, religion, "the opiate of the masses".
Like everything else of worth in this world it is a double-edged sword. It has helped countless millions to cope, it has done endless good for and to millions as well, yet it has also caused pain, tumult and turmoil and has been responsible for some of the very worst horrors in our history. It has served as the clarion call that has freed people from repression and torment, and has inflicted the same on others.
I don't, can't, believe in god, that's true, but at the same time I respect those who do, as long as it's a belief that serves good, rather than division and strife.
I have used Meditation to deal with personal problems ever since the age of 20, and still use it to maintain my balance on many levels, but is that Spiritualism, or whatever? I don't believe so in my case, I see it as "centreing" myself, finding tranquility and clarity of thought and emotion by seeking the calm within.
Works for me, even if I can't define or explain the process.

There doesn't have to be "a point" - it just is.

You can use the phoney argument of pre-supposition by claiming there is a mystical entity the created everything with some sort of overly elaborate purpose, whether He/She is lonely and needed some friends or is insecure and needs constant reassurance via worship - and then work backwards - or just accept that you're here for no particular reason and live the best life you can.

We're just another manifestation of something called Life, which constantly changes and mutates to perpetuate and spread itself in any way it can.
Unfortunately we're also cursed with a degree of sentience and are aware of our own mortality so live in constant denial of accepting it.

As a result we place ourselves on some sort of cosmic pedestal and try to explain things that the human mind is not even capable of understanding. We can't imagine anything beyond three dimensions or the notion of infinity but we have a handy explanation for it all and will kill those who challenge our second-hand manufactured beliefs.

Despite it's trials, life is an amazing thing so just enjoy what time you have and try to leave the universe a better place for your existence. Look at the road ahead, not constantly in the rear vision mirror or you may miss something important.

Essentially you are not your DNA or your body it is only the carriage in which you are. Every cell in your body has been taken from other living organisms, and your body completely replaced every 21 years. Therefore who are you?
You are your character, actions and wisdom or the lack of any of that.
It is only in that, that you impact the history of man and leave an impression. Your body protein was built from the Earth and will return to the Earth, so establish who you are and how you will impact the lives of others. This is a spiritual concept and places us in the image of God, and to whom we are accountable.

Good evening RUNNER...

It would make things so much easier, if there were a spiritual dimension to our existence, a much higher, a more superior dominance that one could believe in ? But alas, there's not. Sadly our atheist friends have pretty well summed it all up. And even though they are right and there is no God, never has been a God, it would be marvellous if they were indeed, really quite wrong, just for once !

Imagine if you will, God really does exist he could banish all the ills of mankind, the misery, the wars...everything, with his immense, unfettered powers, almost instantaneously ! Yet he chooses not to, surely one is entitled to ask why, particularly as he claims to love each and everyone of us, without conditions ? Again, I ask why ?

o sung wu

'Imagine if you will, God really does exist he could banish all the ills of mankind, the misery, the wars...everything, with his immense, unfettered powers, almost instantaneously ! Yet he chooses not to, surely one is entitled to ask why, particularly as he claims to love each and everyone of us, without conditions ? Again, I ask why ?'

and i think almost every human being does ask why. The only answer is that He will one day. Much of the old testament predicted the first coming of the Messiah and it happened. Very much is also written about His second coming and a new heaven and new earth without the curse of mutations which I believe resulted from mankinds fall. Again either Christ was a liar or the only One never to lie.

Though I have never claimed to be a scientist I know enough to see many of the answers that are given by pseudo science are a long way from being clear cut.

as far as a spiritual side is concerned only spirit can discern spirit. I think their is ample evidence again of spirit activity good and evil. Faith in Christ actually brings alive one's spirit to God.

Interesting enough you, myself, Poirot all think we are living or trying to live from the 'right ' moral base. You ask the questions about the end of wars etc. How on earth do you conclude wars are wrong? The terrorist will tell you its right. Why is your opinion more valid than his/hers. People say that they don't believe in absolutes but then tell you that you are wrong. Life without God isn't scientific or rational.

O sung wu, one of the main problems with people who have religious belief, and also non-religious people who consider themselves 'spiritual', is they falsely think they have achieved a higher plane of insight. A lot of them use this belief in their superiority of insight to put down other people who have a more fact based approach; I notice runner does this a lot.

When I look around me I see evidence that nature exists and operates. When scientists look back billions of years in time via the light that reaches us, they see the same thing. We are creatures of the processes of nature, including our brains and our thoughts. Science will no doubt eventually be able to explain exactly the how and why of thoughts, and this will likely take several thousand more years to fully achieve. When this is all eventually factually explained, there will be no need for religions, mythical gods and spirituality with all their judgements, superstitions, punishment threats, feelings of superiority etc.

The fact is that we are nature, and nature is us. This applies to everything that exists, including our thoughts. Our thoughts only exist because our brain exists; when our brain ceases to function and dies, our awareness ceases to function because it's reliant on a functioning brain.

Pesky Boy,

"....one of the main problems with people who have religious belief, and also non-religious people who consider themselves 'spiritual', is they falsely think they have achieved a higher plane of insight..."

If someone feels they have found something the resonates in the right way with them...that's okay.

I agree, however, that defending one's faith by employing derogatory and spiteful argument always sullies the core aspect of the faith in question.

Regarding nature....I would hold up the Tao as having a spiritual realm - and yet it is strongly embedded in following the nuances of the natural world for instruction on how to live harmoniously with oneself, one's fellows and one's surroundings.

Again, in the Tao, "The Way" is indescribable and yet is the source of all - and the root - to which all return.

There are any similarities between the spiritual messages signposted on the different paths.

Dear Josephus,

<<Essentially you are not your DNA or your body it is only the carriage in which you are. Every cell in your body has been taken from other living organisms, and your body completely replaced every 21 years. Therefore who are you?>>

Indeed, certainly not your body.

<<You are your character, actions and wisdom or the lack of any of that.>>

But why have you stopped in there? Why not continue to apply the same logic deeper?

Just as your body changes, so does your character, so do your actions and so does your wisdom. As you just did, you spontaneously speak of "MY character", "MY actions" and "MY wisdom" - you never say "I character", "I actions" or "I wisdom", so you are also neither of those.

You rightfully identified that it is not our imperfect and ever-changing body which is in the image of God: so it is not our imperfect and ever-changing character, actions or wisdom - it is YOU who are in the image of God!

Poirot

'There are any similarities between the spiritual messages signposted on the different paths.'

I think you know that Christ does not leave the option for many differnet paths hence people find His message offensive. By all means question, reject, deny but don't misrepresnt Christ.

'I agree, however, that defending one's faith by employing derogatory and spiteful argument always sullies the core aspect of the faith in question.'

agree and yet the imperfections of the messenger certainly does not give people a valid excuse for denying the truth. You can not tell me that some of the High Priest of the new atheism movement that many are attracted to are the cuddly love everyone type. John the baptist came as a wild fire and brimstone type while Jesus ministered and associated with drunks and prostitutes. Many who heard both despite the contrast still rejected Christ. I am sure you have posted before that you know believers you respect. Using what you perceive the character flaws of another is a very poor way to reach a spiritual conclusion. If anything it should validate the Scriptural postion that all fall short of God's glory and its only by grace through faith in Christ that one can be saved from sin.

Interesting one of the main reasons Darwin rejected Christianity was not so much on a scientific basis but he thoroughly rejected the doctrine of damnation for those rejecting Christ.

Yuyutsu,
The only message others have of you is how you have lived as the person impacting our Universe. All those private thoughts have developed your character and is revealed in the sum of who you are. People do change in character, actions and understanding; but this is part of their imprint into history. Meditation and aspiration to emulate the admired character and actions of the divine will help us to leave a positive footprint on society.

Much of the admired Media characters in our current society are are leaving dirty footprints on human society rather than enhancing. There has been no person in human society more than Christ Jesus that has changed the attitudes of society more than he, except many supposedly claiming to be following him, fail to live as he.

Exactly, Josephus,

As I have recently posted, we are currently living in the "Dark Ages" where hedonism, and superficialiality rules, and the West has lost faith.

The only few heroes around are hidden (artists).

We are living in very confusing and divisive times. Technology has its negatives.

Mental health problems are increasing more and more. A friend in New York told me that everyone there is on anti-depressants. Why?

Please see the film "Donnie Darko".

Let's go deep...

"Our thoughts only exist because our brain exists; when our brain ceases to function and dies, our awareness ceases to function because it's reliant on a functioning brain." PeskyBoy writes.

How do you know for certain that awareness resides in the brain? It is just as possible awareness or consciousness is an infinite source of everything we perceive as real. Quantum physics suggests that events require an observer; who is the observer?

Why was there 'nothing' before the Big Bang? Stephen Hawking says there was nothing before the Big Bang because matter, anti-matter and space didn't exist. I personally cannot grasp the concept of nothingness prior to the Big Bang; where did the Big Bang occur if there wasn't anywhere?

Quantum physics has discovered subatomic particles that vibrate in and out of existence. These particles are part of the physical make up of matter yet at times they are not present, they spring forth from no where. There is also more empty space in every atom than there is stuff, yet our world seems pretty solid. Buddhist texts describe the universe as a dynamic void, a nothingness from which all we know, manifests. We are included in and experience this magnificent creation.

Only the ancient Vedic texts describe God as self creating, everything there is and everything there isn't, everything that has, hasn't or will happen.

This all leaves me wondering if the place the Big Bang occurred was within consciousness itself and the Observer necessary for it to happen, was God.

Dear Josephus,

<<The only message others have of you is how you have lived as the person impacting our Universe.>>

True, but I don't see the relevance. Surely the "point of it all" isn't to impress others, nor is one's impact on the Universe everlasting - just as the body dies, so will every society and every species, thus the question about the "point of it all" still stands.

<<All those private thoughts have developed your character and is revealed in the sum of who you are.>>

What evolves in this case is my character, not me: no matter how my character develops, hopefully for the better, I always was, am and will be that which I am.

<<Meditation and aspiration to emulate the admired character and actions of the divine will help us to leave a positive footprint on society.>>

Absolutely so and I do not dispute for a moment the greatness and contribution of Jesus Christ, but I can't see the relevance to this topic.

o sung wu,

If I remember rightly we have all been up this path before and with you as the instigator. You had very good advice before - I know because I was impressed by the varied replies and took some advice on hand myself.

To be of any help no matter how slim, I should take you to task on a whole range of things, but maybe just a few to get the pot boiling.

Of course we are beset by all sorts of challenges. Do I need to point out however that a world-wide review of happiness found it and fullness of life to boot, living very well indeed in people scavenging in a dump in India?

The answers to your questions friend are already before you, but you refuse to accept that fact. You have the knowledge and the wit (all do). You don't need us except for idle conversation and putting off what you must do. You need to live in the moment and BE GRATEFUL (look around you!).

Stop comparing. Stop complaining. Live your own life, it is good if you want it to be and make an effort to measure the wonderful things around you. Make the best of each new day and if things go pear-shaped, no hair-shirt, do different next go.

Because you asked, my quest has always been for freedom and being of service to the small world around me. Pass it on.

Life is worth living and that depends on YOU believing that and making the most of it.

If you really want meaning in your life, volunteer. Even if that is reading books to help free books online (recordings) for sight diminished. Someone suggested that.

You will never find the 'meaning of life and everything' while you are selfishly concentrating on yourself and luxuriating in maudlin melancholy. Be grateful for what you have and help others. It is not too late.

Conservative Hippie,

<<How do you know for certain that awareness resides in the brain?>>

No-one knows for certain, but the fact that an individual’s personality, memory, preferences, desires, and ability to form new memories can all be reset as a result of brain injury or illness, strongly suggests this; and makes your alternate suggestion seem highly unlikely.

As for your assertions regarding quantum mechanics, it's as Richard Feynman once said: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." Those subatomic particles that vibrate in and out of existence, for example, only appear to pop in and out of existence; we don't know if that's what they’re actually doing.

You are doing the same thing that theists do in trying to use the weirdness of quantum mechanics to shoehorn God (or your brand of mysticism) into science when none of us even understand it yet.

It's revealing to note that most of us here in this discussion appear to think "the point of it all" revolves around our particular species. This is the type of insular view of existence that ancient superstitions like Islam etc have, the belief that our specific species is at the centre of the meaning of all existence.

We flatter ourselves. It shows our primitive nature. Humanity is not 'special'.

'It's revealing to note that most of us here in this discussion appear to think "the point of it all" revolves around our particular species'

well Pesky Boy we could join with the Hindus starving to death while cows walk around as deity.

just a hint for you. If you see a dog and baby girl drowning I suggest you rescue the baby girl. You would be a fool and hopefully locked up if you rescue thye dog and allow the baby to drown.

Runner, you post makes no sense. What is the point you are trying to make?

Pesky Boy,

Runner, you post makes no sense. What is the point you are trying to make?

take at least 30 seconds to think before hitting the keyboard. My point is very obvious.

Actually it's not obvious. Now, will you please explain your post. Thank you.

AJ - fair points. I don't claim to understand quantum physics but I was sharing what I've gleaned from various sources. I'm not really trying to shoehorn god into science nor do I understand why some feel the two are mutually exclusive. I find it all fascinating and I enjoy the discussion.

Pesky, I'm not sure if you were including me in the comment "It's revealing to note that most of us here in this discussion appear to think "the point of it all" revolves around our particular species" but it does appear you included yourself. I never made such a claim and certainly didn't mean to. For all I know, humans might be a genetically engineered species created by aliens who flew here from the constellation of Orion.

The universe has been around a very long time and there is a very good chance we are not the only intelligent or self aware beings. Our lifespan is a blink in time and our size is that of a germ in the grander scale of things. To some that may seem depressing, I find it very exciting.

Cheers

Conservativehippie, why do you say "it does appear you included yourself"? I am most certainly not included, as I don't assert our species is the centre of the "point of it all". Over the next 100,000 or so years I suspect mankind will discover empirical evidence for hundreds of different types of civilizations elsewhere, plus dozens of thousands of instances of microscopic life elsewhere. There's billions of galaxies and likely billions of similar and dissimilar universes, and the belief that we're alone and 'special' amongst all this is ludicrous.

The fact is that spirituality and religions are not superior insights into 'the point of it all', although of course true believers 'believe' it to be so. Such belief shows the primitive stage of development that our species is currently at. The entirety of mankind is currently at a very primitive intellectual level.

Real science has only just begun, and what we currently know is about one billionth of what we'll know in 20,000 years. Then they'll look back at us in this century with horror and pity, regarding our ignorance and primitive intellectual capacities.

So, what can we currently do discern "the point of it all"? Nothing, other than to continue to slowly advance mankind's knowledge, in the hope that in 100,000 years we'll have a decent insight into factual reality.

Hi there RUNNER...

Thanks for your response - In part you ask, '...How on earth do you conclude wars are wrong...' ? In answer to you RUNNER, in some instances wars are both unavoidable,legitimate and wholly necessary, in order to interdict an evil influence. However, notwithstanding how morally justified a war may be, it's always the innocents who suffer the most, and that's just plain wrong ! If God permits any war to be waged, knowing that many innocent people will be subjected to incalculable suffering, then he's obviously wrong as well ? Runner, surely you can see my bewilderment and confusion in this issue ?

G'day ONTHEBEACH...

Gee, you've given me a bit of a 'serve' there ol' man, probably well deserved ! But to be candid with you, I'm not actually in the grips of sustained melancholy, nor complaining of my lot in life, rather I'm merely asking why, why are we here at all, amid all the misery and chaos ? Perhaps I gave the impression that I was wallowing in my beer or something ?

No not really, I guess it's more the case of a theosophical or philosophical discussion, probably generated by a recent very sad event that's personally touched me ? Otherwise, compared to many, I've had a positively charmed life. I do sometimes wonder though, why me, and not the poor blighter who's endlessly fossicking for sustenance amid the piles of detritus of that Indian rubbish dump of which you'd referred ?

That said, I would claim some 'supplemental' knowledge of suburban misery if you like. I suppose over 32 years in the coppers, one can't help but see a fair bit more. Still and all that credo, the more you see it, doesn't necessarily 'environmentally inoculate' you against 'feeling compassion' for people who're trapped in a life of domestic wretchedness, no matter how tough a copper reckons he may be.

Anyway RUNNER, I taken on board everything you've said, and I'm in complete agreement with you my friend. I believe you to be a very compassionate bloke too, for what it's worth.

Hi PESKY BOY...

I'm sorry I've not seen you on OLO or the Forum before ? Therefore please accept my welcome.

You state inter alia, that humans are not special ? Why is that, when human beings are the highest 'life form' is my understanding ? There's no other living species superior to humans to my knowledge at least. And we're by far, inherently the most dangerous of all the living species too, I would've thought ? Or am I right off the mark ?

Hi o sung, my point is not that our species is not special to us, it's that our species is not special to "the point of it all". In other words, "the point of it all" would still exist even if our species didn't exist. So, this means homo sapiens is not special, meaning we are not at the centre of existence as believed by primarily the religions and to a lesser extent by the spiritualists. We are a mere part of existence, just like everything else in existence is a mere part of existence be it big, little, significant, insignificant, necessary or unnecessary etc.

o sung wu,

Not a serve, but treating you as an equal, and I am concerned when that melancholy creeps up to trip you and maybe cause you to wonder about your own assessments.

I am sure you could direct us all if you chose.

Pesky, I was being a bit cheeky because I did actually know what you meant however your comment says "most of 'us' here in this discussion appear to think... ". Using the word 'us' generally means you are including yourself. Sorry to wind you up.

We don't look back on Neanderthals or other early humanoids with horror and pity and I doubt a more advanced civilization of the future will look at us that way. 20,000 years from now they may not even be interested in our actions, say from the years 1500 to 2500. Why should they be, everything will have progressed well beyond the point of worrying about 2014. An interested handful of historians will be able to see the mistakes we made or science we totally missed but they will also recognise everything we do now is a step in the process of them being where they are in the future.

OSW>>Which brings me back to my initial question. What is the point of being born, when we all must ultimately die ?<

OSW, most of the paradigms have been covered....so I poise the questions, why the senseless short life span in our DNA and why do we have our unique consciousness.

Consider the 70 odd years we live for.
Most of our mistakes come before maturity.....many of them effects us for all the following years. Then we move into young adulthood, still vibrant assertive personalities and still making mistakes of judgement because of the lack of experience due to age.

As we reach mid life we consider matters with the wealth of experience of “cause and effect”, we have seen “why” something happens and we have seen the outcome....., our values have changed and our actions may be the total opposite of our youthful judgements. We understand life differently, but our DNA does not allow the best attributes of humanity to come to fruition......DNA can have us living for a thousand years, but it doesn’t. Why give us this unique consciousness and then end our existence before we can exploit it?

Our unique consciousness, serves no purpose under evolution......the knowledge that we have a use by date does us no favours. Other creatures who share the majority of our DNA are not self aware. When a lion eats a Wildebeest, the other Wildebeest do not stand around and think “that could be me tomorrow.”

OSW, if we lived longer the history books would have fewer of the inhumane acts of man because of the shift in values that longevity brings. Evolution and DNA gave us everything, but did it give us our unique consciousness.....if so,is that the reason for our existence and procreation just the conduit.

For those that believe humans have too high opinion of themselves. Tell this to the to climate change scientists. No other species is being blamed for such an imprint on the planet. Humans do have a higher intelligence, a higher responsibility and a higher purpose.

Josephus, because homo sapiens is not the centre of life in the universe and not special or specially selected by some mythical creature, doesn't mean that the species is not of higher intelligence than an insect, not with a higher responsibility than a reptile and not with higher purpose than a bird. If homo sapiens didn't exist, and we've only existed for about 60,000 to 100,000 or so years, then the meaning of life would STILL exist and the point of it all (meaning the point of everything in existence) would still exist. The presence of our species is no more or no less meaningful than the presence of the Sun, the oceans, the planets, other civilizations elsewhere in the cosmos etc. Like everything else in existence, homo sapiens is a part of the processes of nature

Josephus,

"Humans do have a higher intelligence, a higher responsibility and a higher purpose..."

They're also as savage and destructive as they are compassionate and constructive.....intelligent, but lacking, for the most part, wisdom.

'evening to you PESKY BOY...

Wow, now you're getting quite deep with your reasoning. And I reckon 'you're on the money' so to speak. If we 'spoilt' humans ceased to exist, nothing would change much I suspect. Creatures would still be born, they'd live their allotted time, subject to the foibles of their species, and then they'd die ? It would make no real difference to the insect world either as an example, whether or not, us humans ever existed, with our highly toxic sprays etc. ?

We're an arrogant lot when you think about it ! We believe the whole world would cease to exist, if we humans became extinct ? It's little wonder, snakes wish to bite us, as do bears, lions even, in fact, all the true 'heavies' of the animal world tend to dislike us immensely.

Why you might well enquire ? Because we humans believe we're indispensable, the answer to everything important, and it's simply not true. Ask your average (big) salt-water crocodile ? If they have any respect for the average humanoid ? I could only imagine his response, dripping with sarcasm and sneering derision ! Most of those in the animal world, believe humans are simply arrogant, and very selfish bastards ! Hiding behind their large, big bore express rifles, and with the smallest of minds, and a restricted intellect.

That's the honest judgement of your average big 'salty' croc., many of which reside quietly in the murky shallows of some swampy estuary not too far from beautiful downtown Darwin ! All of natures big predators, have been unmercifully hunted by us humans for years ? And would you believe we humans have the temerity to call hunting a sport ! Good grief...Hunting is the only sport, where your competition doesn't know they're playing...! And you might ask, whether or not, the other occupants of this planet would miss us humans, should we become extinct ? Not likely I'd believe ? There'd be a massive celebration !

Hi there ONTHEBEACH...

Not a bit my friend, I always value highly anything you say, you have this unique knack of being able to 'tease out' much of the data where others are unfortunately left floundering. On the occasion where I don't quite understand what another contributor is attempting to impart. I often read your response, and in so doing, manage to grasp much of what the writer is attempting to convey ?

It's for this reason ONTHEBEACH, that I possess considerable deference for your views and much of what you write. Notwithstanding that I don't necessarily agree with your sentiments that are contained within the corporeality of your topic ? No, it's your spirit that I admire greatly, and your courage in defence of your own opinion, that I find most praiseworthy and exemplary. Particularly, when you're 'under fire', as it were ONTHEBEACH. Again, many thanks old man.

Good evening to you SONOFGLOIN...

My profound apologies, may I attempt to respond to your thread tomorrow, I have a roaring headache at this time ? I'm sorry.

Humans are the only species who have moral and social laws that they break and other humans administer and restrain, punish and condemn. We have the ability to evaluate abstract and complex ideas, and write them down for history. Perhaps o sung wu you see crocks as superior because they eat humans for a meal. I suggest perhaps you could reason with them before eating you. We have been able to do this with humans in New Guinea, I have a friend whose father was a head hunter before accepting Christ who changed his mind.

Josephus, could you please explain to me what your last post has to do with "what's the point of it all"? Thank you.

Hi there JOSEPHUS...

I'm very sorry my friend, my most recent ramblings were more or less, 'tongue in cheek' rather than a serious attempt to engage in legitimate commentary. Actually as the originator of the topic I should at least remain steadfastly faithful to the subject, rather than making some facetious remark in order to engender some element of humour ? Again, my profound apologies to you JOSEPHUS.

G'day there SONOFGLOIN...

Sorry for my delay in responding however...I note you lament our relatively brief time we all have on earth (about 70 odd years), suggesting we are insufficiently mature, to avoid making many of the mistakes we made when we were much younger and had far less wisdom ? However, while I broadly agree with what you say, I would contend that age itself, does not necessarily confer social maturity, good judgement, or the necessary empathy we all need to avoid many of the human conflicts, in which we all tend to inspire ?

Nor is chronological age an important factor when we determine the degree of sound judgement we each have, particularly when we speak of negotiating our way through life's minefield of complexities ? I hasten to add SONOFGLOIN, I understand exactly what it is you are alluding to, when you speak of maturity and sound judgement ?

All I'm saying is, we both know of people, though quite advanced in age, nevertheless they could be best described, as silly old goats, devoid of any real common sense, wit, or good grace ? The type of individual where one must walk quietly, whenever we're in their presence, lest we upset their delicate equilibrium and create some minor conflict ? One irrefutable fact that I do know ? We humans are a very complex species, to be sure ? Many thanks for your response.

OSW: silly old goats, devoid of any real common sense, wit, or good grace ? The type of individual where one must walk quietly, whenever we're in their presence, lest we upset their delicate equilibrium and create some minor conflict ?

They aren't silly old Goats, They're young immature Politically Correct, useless Do Gooders. ;-)

We are born. We live. We love. We die, That is all. That is the meaning of life, Oh, & 42.

A few thoughts:

When asked for the secret to a long life,
an old woman in Chinese folklore says:

"There are two things we all do in life:
to be born and to die. We've done one,
what's the hurry for the other?"

And -

Charlie Brown says in a strip - after
looking into the vastness of the starry sky,

"Let's go inside and watch television.
I'm beginning to feel insignificant."

I am beginning to wonder if Pesky Boy is really human? His "please explain" often occurs when he fails to understand posts. Pesky Boy talk to the animals see if they can reason with you.

I talk to my dog & her friends, & they talk to me. Or rather we understand each other without a spoken language.

I think OSW knows what that's like. When we were on a Patrol & the sixth sense suddenly kicks in. You look around & the rest of the Section knows what you want them to do. They do it, without speaking.

Josephus, I courteously asked you to clarify your post for me, and I received a sarcastic putdown in reply. Your reply reflects on you, not me. I won't ask you again to clarify, as you you clearly are not interested in genuinely addressing the point I raised. That's your choice, and your right.

Foxy, when you quoted "Let's go inside and watch TV, I'm beginning to feel insignificant", I thought you showed a depth of insight. Some of us understand the sheer insignificance of our species in the overall totality of all existence. Unfortunately there are others who can't understand this, and see our particular species as occupying a specially chosen position of superiority over every living natural life form in existence in the totality of all existence everywhere. They have this 'opinion' because of the many different ancient superstitions they follow, often without question. It's sad that they are like that, but it is of course their right to believe whatever they choose to believe, no matter how factually incorrect. I'll certainly defend their right to 'believe'.

Talk to the animals that would eat or kill you; see if they reason with you. At least Head hunters in PNG once might have considered you a meal but we have been able to reason with them. Crocodiles will never change their behaviour. Why? They do not posses human intelligence.

Josephus,

"....Crocodiles will never change their behaviour. Why? They do not posses human intelligence."

The following are from the opening lines of Noam Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival":

"A few years ago, one of the great figures of contemporary biology, Ernst Mayr, published some reflections on the likelihood of success in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence.He considered the prospect very low. His reasoning had to do with the adaptive value of what we call "higher intelligence", meaning the particular human form of higher intellectual organisation. Mayr estimated the number of species since the origin of life at about fifty billion, only one of which "achieved the kind of intelligence to establish a civilisation." It did so very recently, perhaps 100,000 years ago.....Mayr speculated that the human form of intellectual organisation may not be favoured by selection. The history of life on earth, he wrote, refutes the claim that "it is better to be smart than to be stupid," at least judging by biological success: beetles and bacteria, for example, are vastly more successful than humans in terms of survival. He also made the rather somber observation that "the average life expectancy of a species is about 100,000 years."
We are entering a period of human history that may provide an answer to the question of whether it is better to be smart than stupid. The most hopeful prospect is that the question will "not" be answered: if it receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a kind of "biological error," using their allotted 100,000 years to destroy themselves and, in the process, much else.
The species has surely developed the capacity to do just that, and a hypothetical extraterrestrial observer might well conclude that humans have demonstrated that capacity throughout their history, dramatically in the past few hundred years, with an assault on the environment that sustains life, on the diversity of more complex organisms, and with a cold and calculated savagery, on each other as well.

Hi JAYB, indeed I do. Outside the wire you develop a perfect understanding with everyone else in the section, it's as if we're all completely in sync with each other ? Consequently any superfluous chatter is quite redundant really ? Any unnecessary noise can only magnify the risk exponentially to both yourself and the rest of the section. Interestingly, one can almost 'sense' a potential contact before it actually happens ? No matter how low down the totem pole a bloke may be, the most junior rifleman even, very soon he develops his own sensory faculties to almost razor sharp, by the end of his tour ? I reckon you'd agree JAYB !

OSW: I reckon you'd agree JAYB

Yes I do mate, & I still had it even up until I retired with My abo mate & fellow Slingsman in Townsville. We knew when we wanted one another without even see one another. Even the other guys in the Workshop could see it work.

Even now I can tell the direction, how far, coming in or out, when there is a loud bang or sharp crack. Don't genuflect though. ;-) You know what I'm talking about.

Poirot,
About 6,000 years ago it was recorded that humans had a responsibility to the planet by nurturing plants and animals and even then they murdered each other in defiance of the plan for human society. They were told to procreate that was so they could manage the resources of the Planet. Because of human rebellion selfishness and abuse the end of mankind on Earth will end with plagues, disease and natural catastrophe. Man in the end will be held accountable for how he has managed the Earth. This is verifiable from ancient writings which you might not currently accept.

OSung, I've just come back to this thread and spotted your comment re' "giving you a serve".
Sorry, I've reviewed my posts too and I just can't see that, I've only offered my personal thoughts on the subject as far as I can see?
To my mind your and my positions aren't all that disparate,
I noticed you referred to a long career in the gendarmes, perhaps that has had more of an effect on you than most people can understand?
Desensitisation is a common side-effect of such a life, it pleases me to see that you don't appear to have fallen prey to that.
I worked for the Salvo's in Crisis Care and Accommodation for years, and as a volunteer with various organisations for many more, I saw what you cops have to deal with often and can only admire anyone who can do that job and retain their sanity, let alone a sense of humanity, onya indeed!
I actually enjoy your posts, even if I don't always understand them.

Pesky Boy>> Some of us understand the sheer insignificance of our species in the overall totality of all existence.<<

PB, in answering OSW’s quandary as to why we are here I introduced the concept of our “unique” consciousness and its worth to us.

Why do we understand that there will be a tomorrow, there is no reason for it. Other social creatures such as ants and bees do not possess this concept yet they do collectively build today for a tomorrow.

Why do we have an understanding of our own mortality, what advantage does it give us? All other creatures seem to survive with a “self preservation sense” that guides their physical movements; they know instinctively that jumping from a cliff is the wrong decision.

Why do we carry the concept of morality, it is certainly not needed for a homogenous productive society as again the ants and bees exhibit social harmony without a morality.

Given the DNA variant between all living things is negligible the question of why our consciousness is unique has spawned religions and kept stand up philosophers in business for thousands of years.

But we are different and when we find out why we will know if the answer is 42.

Sonofgloin, regarding what you call our unique consciousness: It is indeed unique, just like the consciousness of a whale is unique, the consciousness of an ant is unique, the consciousness of a bird is unique and the consciousness of any alien life would also be unique.

Your belief that animals have no concept of a tomorrow is a belief. I say otherwise, as animals constantly show they have a concept of the future. A bird doesn't build it's nest because it's so stupid it doesn't know what a nest is for. The bird knows through observation, copying and learning that a nest is an insurance policy for tomorrow. The smart bird progresses and prospers, and the bird that doesn't learn sufficiently well falls by the wayside. Just because birds can't communicate their knowledge to us in human language and in terms we can fully comprehend, does not mean birds don't possess awareness, feelings, knowledge and a concept of the future.

Yes, humans have a concept of their own mortality. Animals also have knowledge of their own mortality. If you've ever observed animals who are witnessing the imminent death of other animals, you'd then have an understanding of their fear and trepidation. The sense of self preservation you mention regarding animals, is the SAME sense of self preservation our species has.

Our mortality concept exists not because we have the intellectual capacity to write it down in words, it exists because it exists. The same mortality concept exists in animals, they just don't express it in our manner via language/writings.

You wrote, "We are different and when we find out why we will know". When we find out why is the time when we'll fully comprehend we are not nearly as different as we 'think' we are. Homo sapiens is not special, nor specially chosen by a mythical creature, nor the centre of existence, nor the only creature with self awareness and feelings, nor the 'only' worthy creature. Our arrogance and sense of superiority is manifest and hopefully one day we'll know better and treat all life with due respect.

I'd like to throw a few more thoughts into this
discussion. Popular and perhaps misguided views about
our species abound and persist. For example, a
substantial majority of people seem to agree with the
statement - "Human nature being what it is, there will
always be wars and conflict."

The problem with such ideas about "human nature" is that
they are deeply coloured by the cultural beliefs of the
societies in which they are found. In the industrialised
countries of the world, particularly in the West, we tend
to think of people as being "naturally" self-seeking,
selfish, competititive, and even agressive.

But this kind of behaviour is virtually unknown among
many of the "primitive" people of the world - in New Guinea,
central Africa, the Himalayas. There are many other
societies who never have wars at all, and their inhabitants
obviously have a very different conception of "human nature."

In fact, our behaviour is probably a product of an interaction
between our basic biological heritage and the learning
experiences of the particular culture in which we happen to
live.

PB>> Sonofgloin, regarding what you call our unique consciousness: It is indeed unique, just like the consciousness of a whale is unique, the consciousness of an ant is unique<<

So PB, our consciousness is not unique? Give me the name of one creature that kills another for a “personal” motive....one removed from defence or sustenance............just one.........any one.

Foxy: in New Guinea, central Africa, the Himalayas. There are many other societies who never have wars at all.

I beg to differ Foxy. I don't know where you would get that from.
PNG tribes are notorious for Warfare & Payback Warfare.

It was an Englishman who taught the Zulus how to fight Western Style against their traditional enemy. Traditionally they did what the early Greeks &, Romans & Levant peoples did. Put forward your Best & Bravest in single combat until one side or the other called enough. (See Horatio at the bridge) Did you know he went home & killed his wife. She was what the war was over. She had been having an affair with the other King who was coming to claim her.

Warfare between African tribes was always on going.

Even in South & Central America the various tribes were always at one another's throats.

The Middle Eastern tribes have been at it for 10000 years.

The Germanic tribes did Warfare for sport.

Good afternoon to you G'day BRUCE...

I'm very sorry, I was referring to my old mate ONTHEBEACH, it was he that gave me a 'bit of a serve', well deserved too I reluctantly admit ! That said I do agree with your summation that you and I are of similar circumstances ? You with a long history of helping many of life's less fortunate, and myself, sort of in a similar role, but not nearly as appreciated as you and your compassionate cohorts ?

Still, over the years I would like to think we were trying to do the right thing by the community. Whether the community as a whole recognised our assistance, who can tell ? We've had to deal with some mighty strange folk over the years ? I was I/C of a suicide enquiry, a young twenty year old, living at home, used his Dad's shotgun on himself, while sitting on the household lavatory. There was no question that it was suicide, still the Coroner had to process the death, as normal.

The funny part being, as I said, the poor lad, used his Dad's 'el cheapo' single barrel 12G, a 'Boito' ? A real 'cheap and nasty' piece. Anyway, at the conclusion of all evidence the Coroner gave his finding and directed that all property that I'd originally seized, be returned to the rightful owner. You wouldn't believe it, but the father of the deceased lad, wanted his shotgun returned to him ! The gun, his son used to kill himself with. Believe me it wasn't a pretty sight, the son placed the barrel in his mouth and pulled the trigger, leaving most of his brain matter over the toilet wall behind him ! And his stupid father wanted the gun back ! It'd be only worth about fifty buck if that ! Go figure, G'day BRUCE, you sure get some strange ones ? Nice to speak with you ol' man !

Personal motives and animals? Not so sure about that.

However there are plenty of instances where animals kill and it is difficult to argue that it served a survival purpose, eg cats (they hate those introduced Indonesian Barking Geckos for instance), chimpanzees and elephants.

Come out on farms especially bordering National Parks and I will show you evidence of wild dogs killing sprees of farm animals.

Just random examples, and I could add that too of humans intervening to try to stop the killing.

Foxy, "In the industrialised countries of the world, particularly in the West, we tend to think of people as being "naturally" self-seeking, selfish, competititive, and even agressive"

Not so sure about that either. Maybe that depends on whose (political) eyes are used. While the behaviour of humans presents paradoxes (Shakespeare gives plenty of examples), I reckon there is abundant evidence that in both West and East (South too to include Australia) that humans are universally regarded as noble creations.

Forget the political commentators and others with a secondary agenda and go to the poets who usually have clearer, deeper sight and without those 'goggles' that affect so many social commentators (sadly in the human sciences too, where they take a lot of liberties with their claimed 'scientific research').

Foxy>> For example, a
substantial majority of people seem to agree with the
statement - "Human nature being what it is, there will
always be wars and conflict."<<

Foxy dear, there is a great deal of truth to that statement, but does it describe the majority or just a minority with the power to make the decision. How many wars would we have fought if every government had to call a plebiscite on the issue......certainly not as many I would surmise?

One truism regarding war is that the young don’t start them, although without them there would be no war. Wars are started by the mature and powerful, which detracts from my first post to OSW, in which I stated that a longer life span would find a society that matured away from such senseless destruction.

But I still think we have a mind that revalue’s the worth of the physical things against people in our lives as we get older, it regauges everything and everybody in our life against time left.........and people invariably win over possessions at the end.

About the native peoples, I found that our own native Aussies have a recurring theme in many of their Dreamtime stories, and that is envy....this entity saw that one with something the first did not have....from the two humanity destroyers, greed and envy, if one could go it would be envy.....that society knew the enemy....but that’s our nature Foxy dear but if we lived longer our minds would grow out of it.

OTB>> Come out on farms especially bordering National Parks and I will show you evidence of wild dogs killing sprees of farm animals.

Beg to differ mate...pack mentality...not a personal decision, but one driven from the DNA of a pack predator.....call it practice with an adrenaline boost.

Hi (again) SONOFGLOIN...

What you're saying is, 'size' per se is irrelevant ? You juxtapose the whale and the ant as an example ? Your point on killing, other than as a food source and as a defensive measure, is excellent ! And I have absolutely no answer in which to oppose you ! We humans are singularly the most treacherous and dangerous, of all living species ? And to be even more finite, the male of the species, by far, the worst !

o sung wu,

It is an interesting difference between the sexes that men might admonish each other out of respect where there is a risk one might be selling himself short or unfairly criticisng himself (for instances), whereas women in similar situations seem to use huge ladles of gooey, over-sweet chocolate flattery for the same purpose.

Men are rational first and last, preferring the scientific proof as fact.

Maybe though sometimes we might be better served by using some feminine intuition instead of being so hard on ourselves. For example, while there is no evidence of anything outside of the life we experience, we (men) should not be so sure and limiting to assume that the senses we use (and the tools as well) can test for everything. Maybe sometimes it is better to sit watching the stars and feel, knowing that all may not be revealed until the final curtain and probably after that.

I was trying to remember something Ralph Waldo Emerson said about the waste of time in getting hung up on the meaning of life (and the afterlife). Living in a world of pain ATM (accident, not car, during the wild storm the other day) and a screen and keying is hard enough. So I have given up the search for the quote sorry, but can I encourage you to read some Emerson? Google coughed this up and it is a start, but I do not think you need lessons, but a reminder of what you (and we) already know inside,

http://www.lifeoptimizer.org/2010/01/15/essential-life-lessons-from-ralph-waldo-emerson/

OSW>> What you're saying is, 'size' per se is irrelevant ? You juxtapose the whale and the ant as an example <<

OSW, my response of "find a creature other than us that kills for personal reasons" was in reply to this thought from Pesky, it's his whale and ant:

"Sonofgloin, regarding what you call our unique consciousness: It is indeed unique, just like the consciousness of a whale is unique, the consciousness of an ant is unique, the consciousness of a bird is unique and the consciousness of any alien life would also be unique"

OSW,

As usual, I agree with Poirot on this topic: the transient beauty of a flower, the joy of life in a sparrow or peewee, the serious preoccupation of a beetle to get over a log; just the wonder of life, the gift of life. The enchantment of beautiful music (or a beautiful painting or photo, if you're inclined). And beautiful women: what would life be without such miraculous creations ?

Not to mention the friendships and experiences one has, the intensity of deep love for someone, the exhilaration of discovering something new or illuminating about the world, the exultation just knowing that there are (or have been) wonderful, brave people in the world like Malala Yusufzai, or Martin Luther King, who will forever inspire us.

Life is so precious, but in addition to all the influences and reasons above, it's up to each of us to figure out what is wonderful and entrancing, what can keep us driving forward.

Best wishes,

Joe

PS. And then there's us OLO ratbags out here too ! You, and each of us, contribute to a vibrant 'community' of talkers and arguers, getting up each other's noses, giving us something to think about, forcing us to develop our ideas and putting meat on our assertions.

It's all good !

G'day to you LOUDMOUTH...

Well Joe, what can I possible say to you. Your first two paragraphs are absolutely inspiring and challenging. As a matter of fact I did read POIROT'S thread, where she described much of what you've just articulated here. There's much to be said for such an evocative description of one of life's simplest, most basic of activities. The trouble is Joe we all live such busy lives few of us even have the time to notice such a beautiful event, let alone acknowledge that it's occurring daily ? And even few of us actually have the time to witness it happening, and that's awfully very sad !

You should be roundly commended for it Joe, you do have such a nice 'turn of phrase', and I can only wish that I too, could express myself as eloquently as you and POIROT ? To possess such an enviable talent makes me positively green with envy ! Thank you, both of you.

Sorry sonofgloin I'm afraid you have that one very wrong. Many horses take personal likes & dislikes, & would kill if allowed.

I have had a number of horses that would beat up any other horse that came to close to their favourite friend. This was with mares & geldings.

With most stallions, they would attack each other on sight, mating season or not. I know there are some stallions, probably raised together, that can run together out of breading season, but I've never owned one.

In fact with my old stallion, it is still essential that you don't let him see himself in a glass door, or large window, as he will attack his reflection on sight.

We had to be careful at events, not to tie him near any thing he could see himself in. Even the windows of a large 4WD wagon would set him off.

We managed to train him not to attack his reflection, or even other stallions when he was being ridden or led, but watch out once you tied him up, or let him loose.

Joe,

"....the transient beauty of a flower, the joy of life in a sparrow or peewee, the serious preoccupation of a beetle to get over a log; just the wonder of life, the gift of life. The enchantment of beautiful music (or a beautiful painting or photo, if you're inclined). And beautiful women: what would life be without such miraculous creations ?

Not to mention the friendships and experiences one has, the intensity of deep love for someone, the exhilaration of discovering something new or illuminating about the world, the exultation just knowing that there are (or have been) wonderful, brave people in the world like Malala Yusufzai, or Martin Luther King, who will forever inspire us.

Life is so precious, but in addition to all the influences and reasons above, it's up to each of us to figure out what is wonderful and entrancing, what can keep us driving forward."

I do declare that is one of your more inspiring posts - and one in which I take pleasure!

O sung wu,

"....The trouble is Joe we all live such busy lives few of us even have the time to notice such a beautiful event, let alone acknowledge that it's occurring daily ?..."

I believe that is an affliction of modern Western life....all our mod cons and yet we race around at ever increasing speeds...well most people do...

I deliberately try and keep life as simple as I can in order to avoid the mad rush, but one has to step slightly away from the herd these days to achieve such a thing, I've noticed.

Cheers guys : )

Hasbeen>>Sorry sonofgloin I'm afraid you have that one very wrong. Many horses take personal likes & dislikes, & would kill if allowed.<<

I know exactly what you mean...horses can be bastards with their likes and dislikes, almost human....but I still put it down to group domination and social hierarchy rather than one horse not liking what another does.

Along the same vein, someone once suggested that because elephants grieve over a dead herd member, they have an equivalent consciousness to humans. Elephants do huddle around the fallen member; they prod and push their mate for hours trying to animate it. That they do it for hours suggest they do not understand mortality and they are reacting to a difference of circumstance...did move....doesn't move.

I don't know if I'm right but I get the feeling that perhaps there's very few posters here who've ever been forced to confront the reality of life, death, and the existential anguish that drives so much of the pain and suffering in this world?
Suze as a police person has dealt with much that I haven't obviously but in my time I've had to deal with corpses and new-borns, picked up pieces of children from the road at an accident scene, dealt with both successful and unsuccessful suicides, and I've sat with the dying and those driven to utter despair by some of the worst things you could possibly imagine in this life. Disease, rape, murder, child abuse, suicide, I've been confronted by it all, as has Suze, so perhaps that gives us a depth of experience and understanding that many just cannot imagine? It certainly gives one an appreciation of life and the pleasures it offers, we treasure much that others take for granted.
When you've had to deal with that sort of experience for a few years the "big" questions of the why's of life itself tend to rather pale into insignificance, they're interesting but you can't really get too excited by them, life has been just too "REAL" for that to matter overly much.
For me, the "point" of Life is simply life itself, live it, treasure it, and be grateful for whatever joy it grants you along the way, the wolves are at the door for us all, lurking just out of sight but ready to pounce at any time.
Anything else is just pointless mental masturbation.

Hi HASBEEN...

I must be so naïve about the behaviour of our domestic animals, I had absolutely no idea that a horse, could be so cantankerous and irascible, particularly after having being 'broken in' ? I realise you have an abundance of experience with equines HASBEEN, so the notion they'll attack their own image (if seen in a mirror) is truly extraordinary ! It's little wonder really, how these relatively small Jockeys can manage to control some of these huge thoroughbreds, at the Race Track, certainly trying to get them into the 'Starters Gate' prior to a race ?

These impressive looking creatures, despite their tame, majestic image, appear quite harmless. Nevertheless they're really quite dangerous if you don't know how to handle them ? What I find quite anomalous, despite their massive size, they are in reality, of a nervous disposition, whenever they encounter a person or situation they may fear ?

TMOL?
1. To reproduce
2. To tell others how they should live.
Hope this helps, osw.

O sung wu, I've worked on farms for over 20 years, this was many decades ago. I handled horses on an almost daily basis, most were working horses, plus some domestic horses that were basically pets. Over time, probably over 300 or so horses. Aggressive horses were EXTREMELY rare, and almost all were VERY well behaved and did a good job. I've had no experience with racing horses, but from my talks with people in the racing industry these racing horses have aggression bred into them and are highly strung to say the least. If they are not successful and don't make money they are often discarded like rubbish, despite the lying denials from the industry.

Stallions are not yarded together or in close proximity for good reason - competition when a female comes into oestrus. Whereas on large properties it is different.

Apart from that, horses are individuals and some stallions in particular can be right S.O.Bs.

Farmers have usually got in early and culled out and bred out possible problem behaviours. That doesn't remove the harem forming & competitive behaviour, which is normal.

A sizeable farm paddock might not prevent serious injury or death. Horses do not always read signals well.

Farmers don't waste effort. There are reasons for gelding where breeding is not required.

My preferred mount is a Kawasaki, or the Landcruiser 70.

I have never had a horse that was vicious with people, but have had a couple that took a dislike to another particular horse.

My stallion, that will attack his own reflection, is a lovely horse in all human dealings. My daughter was riding him when she was 10 & he was 4 years old. 2 years later she was regularly winning show jumping events on him.

He is one of the joys of my life. Whenever he sees me, or even hears the house paddock gate open, he calls to me, & comes, often at a trot, for a rub. He is now 28, & came to us as an 8 month old colt, so we're old friends.

It is nice when you can break in a youngster, & avoid them developing problems. I could have worked his reflection attacking out of him, but it was not really problem to avoid the situation.

Horses you buy can be difficult. A 10 year old we bought, a brilliant eventer, properly ridden, an ex racehorse, could not be worked on tied up. Even saddling he would pull back hard enough to smash his halter, or the thing he was tied too. I could have worked it out of him, with enough time. However I discovered if I turned him back to the hitching point in the yard, or on the truck, I could drop his lead on the ground & he would stand for any saddling or even shoeing.

I used to wonder what traumatic event had caused his fear of being tied. He was one who developed an attachment for a particular horse, & would chase others away if they came near.

He couldn't handle retirement. He would stand at the gate for hours waiting for his daily workout. He was not an easy horse to ride, & I had to find someone good enough to handle him, who wanted an aging horse on his way down. I found a strong 14 year old girl, who wanted him for pony club, so he had a final career at pony club.

Only just noticed the last line of your post Beachy.

Are you mad? Those motor bikes are dangerous things, scare the daylights out of me they do.

Then off roading is almost as bad. Falling off mountain sides, & getting stuck in creeks & rivers & things. You're as bad as my son.

G'day there HASBEEN...

No doubt your Achilles heel is your profound love of horses specifically, and all animals generally ? As do I readily admit, my own unconditional love for ALL animals. Call me a 'girls blouse' so be it, I couldn't care less !

Also HASBEEN I see you're in good company with your equine sentiments, as evidenced by the remarks from PESKY BOY and ONTHEBEACH, both seemingly have had long associations with Horses of all kinds and in differing situations ? However there's one sector of the community that owes an enormous debt to the horse. And that's the entire Racing industry, in all it's forms ? Harness Racing, Steeplechase, and flat Racing. I've no doubt these highly competitive thoroughbreds are treated with unrestrained kindness. It's just the periphery of the Industry that has always troubled me. Both as a means of laundering huge quantities of illicit cash, and other corruptive influences that organised crime can introduce to the game, if allowed.

That is the reason why organisations like the AJC, STC, and other Racing Governor's have a number of retired detectives on their payroll ? I'm sorry people if through some element of my ignorance, I've spoken a load of crap about horses and their complex behaviour. It's purely though my ignorance, rather then any attempt to deliberately obfuscate the discussion.

And in conclusion LUCIFERASE, I'm sorry, but I'm not quite with you there, with your reference to 'TIMOL' and below ? Many thanks to you nevertheless, for your response.

Hasbeen, "Those motor bikes are dangerous things"

Agreed. Get a lot of work done.

I have never come across a horse yet that can be handled that has not had contact with humans. My younger brother had to shoot 40 head of cattle running in a large bush property that could not be herded because they had had no contact with humans.

Josephus, he didn't have to kill them, he "chose" to kill them.

PB: he "chose" to kill them.

No. You obviously don't know anything about wild cattle. My brother in-law had the same problem. He found 1500 head of unbranded cattle on an area that had never been mustered.(He inherited the Property.) They finally got them out of the mountains & onto the Home Station but had to destroy most of them. They just kept the yearlings & Weaners. The rest just couldn't be handled.

I know it sounds terrible to city boys but that's life in the Bush.

Jayb, I'm born, bred and worked on stations for decades. Not for the last 20 years or so. Your brother-in-law didn't "have" to kill them, he "chose" to kill them. Yes, to not kill them costs time and money and is inconvenient, but killing them is a choice.

Mankind believes we have dominion over all animals. It will be interesting if over the next 100,000 years we are discovered by a highly superior alien species that think they have dominion over us, and can kill us at will. I wonder if we'll think that is moral and right ..... whilst it's happening to "us"?

Hi Pesky Boy,

Perhaps in that 100,000 years, our descendants will work out 'what's the point of it all', all the myriad of ways in which we understand how life is so precious (as you say, even for wild cattle), and we are graced by nature with a short span of it, to put in more than we take out.

I hope I don't stop till I drop :)

Joe

Joe, our species has been here for around 80 to 100 thousand years, and it's taken that long to reach our current primitive stage of intellectual development. People imagine that in 100,000 years time we'll be a terribly intellectually advanced, highly developed species with all the answers. I think the reality will be that there's a VERY good chance that we'll actually go backwards rather than forwards and our intellectual capacities will be relatively unchanged. Intellectually, a modern person is not much different from someone who lived 40,000 years ago. I suspect that someone living in 100,000 years time will be not much different intellectually than someone living today ... that is if our species survives that long.

PB: I suspect that someone living in 100,000 years time will be not much different intellectually than someone living today ...

Except that we'll know "more stuff."

Jayb, you wrote "except that we'll know more stuff". Not necessarily. We "assume" that our knowledge and advancement will continue forever on an upward spiral. That's not guaranteed. There's millions of variables that could happen to our species that could have us living as cave dwellers again when that 100,000 years is up. Evolution and the development of species isn't just about the rise of a species, it's also about the demise of a species.

True, Pesky Boy,

I reckon the world has become too narcissistic and unthinking hedonism seems to be ruling. There is so much BS and spin doctors around and we've lost our grounding.

Enigma - Age Of Loneliness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APW_QwzGg2o

PB,

One problem about living as cave-dwellers is how incredibly inefficient such a life-style is in terms of food-gathering for a population: if our descendants all did that, there wouldn't be room for more than a million or so of them, perhaps far less, on the entire planet. Severe weather shifts, floods or droughts, would wipe out half of the people in a particular area periodically, and take decades to build up again.

The population of Victoria is now around five million. On the whole, they are all living much more comfortably than Victorians in, say, 1840. Prior to 1837 0r so, the total population of Victoria was barely five thousand, at the best of times.

So, in order to go back to a hunter-gatherer existence, in a dry cave if you were lucky, who decides who will be the 4,995,000 Victorians who have to be sacrificed, and who will be the 'lucky' five thousand ?

Meanwhile, for all the talk of doom and gloom, last year saw a world bumper grain crop. New genetically-modified crops are being designed every year - bananas with added Vitamin A, for example. More food than ever is being produced, and will probably keep being produced. Who knows what might be going on in a hundred years, let alone a hundred thousand ?

So can we get back to the here and now ? The mystery of life is that it is worth it - our task is to solve the mystery :)

Joe