On July 14th 2007 the Islamic Council of Victoria is promoting a 'FAMSY' conference at Melbourne University.

http://www.famsy.com/famsy/modules/news/article.php?storyid=107

A guest speaker is "Imam Mahdi Bray" an African American convert to Islam, who is alleged to have connections to the Muslim Brotherhood.

What kind of activities has this man been up to? For example.. would he speak 'sympatheticaly' of a man like Ahmed Omar Abu-Ali

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_Abu_Ali
Ahmed Omar Abu-Ali is an American citizen who was convicted of providing material support to the al Qaeda terrorist network.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/2005/05/006028print.html
“MAS Freedom Foundation's Executive Director, Mahdi Bray, called the continued detention of Ahmed Abu-Ali, an American born citizen and an honor student, in a Saudi Arabian jail a "national disgrace and tragedy."

If he did, would that then disqualify him for admittance to Australia on comfort to terrorist grounds? I SURE HOPE SO!

On December 22, 2000, MPAC's Mahdi Bray organized a rally in Lafayette Park outside the White House to celebrate a "Worldwide Day for Jerusalem." In Arabic, the crowd responsively chanted with the emcee, "Khaybar, Khaybar oh Jews, the Army of Muhammad is coming for you!"

Has anyone NOTICED my many_repeated references to KYAYBAR?
Hezbollah Missile "Khaybar II"
Amrozi "Jews..remember Khaybar"

Any person who comes to this country to support and nourish a value system which has at its heart the call for destruction of Christians and Jews on the basis of their core beliefs, is a danger, is unwelcome (by me at least) and a risk to our national security.

This man called Muslims to attend Abu Ali's court hearing and to MOCK the proceedings.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/2011 (see refs to MAS Muslim American Society)

Mahdi Bray.. would you like some Australians to do for you as you did to the American Justice system ?

Take a deep breath and think about it.
Stopping such idiots from coming is not going to help, let the Goose come, record every thing he says.
Review the tapes and know who are our enemy's, show the clown on every TV station and let us see the danger extremists are and we just may benefit from his hate and lies.
A better world awaits us if we understand we need no man made God.
Any of the many we have invented.

The problem is Belly is that there are many people in Aust who feel alienated just like David Hicks and our tribal instincts very often over ride any logic.Hicks left his family to find adventure and tribal bonding.

These lunatic fringe dwellers offer simplistic solutions in an increasingly complex world and many do find solace in their teachings.

I think that our science and technology progress has out stripped our genetic ability to cope with environmental change.

We don't need the lunatic Islamic Facists to preach their bile here,since our society has been made too vunerable by the destruction of the family unit.

And the first nomination for the Boaz Perpetual Whack-a-Mozzie trophy, for the least edifying, most vacuous insult against Islam is.... Arjay!

This is a doozy, Arjay.

>>We don't need the lunatic Islamic Facists to preach their bile here,since our society has been made too vunerable by the destruction of the family unit<<

It has all the ingredients that we have come to expect, plus a couple of extras - here is an excerpt from the judges' comments.

"The first thing we noticed was that it concatenates two concepts - a condemnation of the visiting speaker coupled with a condemnation of our own society - classy.

Looking at the two separately we can see some marked differences in style, almost as if they were written by two different people. The first phrase could easily have been written by a knuckle-dragging neanderthal, while the second is a thoughtful piece of self-loathing, wittily leavened by the cuteness of a single misspelt word.

The judges award extra marks for the sheer brilliance of the non-sequitur contained in the sentence as a whole. The author makes the claim that the fact that his own society is already rooted, is sufficient rationale for rejecting the visiting preacher. Quite how the two are related is not made clear, which is in itself a stroke of artistic genius - the keep 'em guessing approach is always appealing."

To add my own observation to that of the judges - why should we be scared of people like this, and what they might say?

The preacher, I mean.

I tend to agree Boaz.

Australia is strict as to who it allows in to this country. It has banned people like Peter Thatchel, a respected representative on the Greater London City Council, for his protests against Robert Magabe. This was before Australia admitted that Zimbabwe was a problem.

Rock groups from Oasis to radical punk groups have been banned from comming to Australia. Even Eminem was banned to come, at first, and only came after an appeal. Banning people from coming to Australia is not rare and is usually protocol to keep the peace.

It the man wants to cause trouble, why should he be treated any differently?

Perhaps you're right. We don't need to let any fundamentalist extremists into the country.
We have enough of our own already.

Arjay while I share your opinion of the uneducated hate filled section of this community I differ on the way we handle it.
Headlines today in the Sydney press talk of death threats against a visiting female writer who is anti Islamist.
She has a storey to tell I want to hear and I want the public to hear should we ban her too?
NOWAY lets at least unlike some Islamist states [most?] hear the other side and gather evidence on just who s wrongly living among us full of hate and a danger to us.
While some think our understanding of the threat makes us red necks I have zero doubt only a free education can help those who are bigoted and hate filled in the name of a God.
And just as sure we must understand our enemy.
And demand accountability from those in this community who claim to be appalled by the radicals .
Lets stand up for our freedoms including free speech but learn from those who would never allow it in the country's they call home.

Pericles, "why should we be scared of people like this, and what they might say?"

I don't know what this particular guys message is but did see excepts (edited of course) of a visiting US preacher some time ago who was urging muslims not to have non-muslim friends.

Scared of him - no. Concerned that his work adds to the alienation some mossies already feel - yes. Preachers like this build on the work done by BD and others to ensure that we have social division and cultural/racial hate as on ongoing issue. It suits the agenda's of extremists on both sides.

I suspect that banning those who don't advocate violence is counter productive but I would like to see more effort from across the board to building bridges rather than tearing them down.

R0bert

Team.. the reason I began this thread, is found in this blokes 'sheep in wolves clothing' character and his involvement in a demonstration (reported to the US senate) where it had all the hallmarks of the early Nazi stirrings against Jews.

The demo in Lafayette park needs to be scrutinized by the AFP and Asio. This bloke is renowned for a 'quiet and humble eloquence' yet.. he stirs up rallies dedicated to slaughtering Jews.. (in the long run)

My concern, as for all such people, is that his presense here contributes to the growth and encouragement of a value system which manifests itself (if not now..then later) in the same kind of behavior in our streets. It is that value system which calls "behead those who insult the prophet".. etc and all those other slogans on signs during the London cartoon protests.

This man is a reported 'wahabbi'.. so the question arises, why did the Islamic Council of Victoria invite him ? I'm sure they would not invite someone who's views they considered dangerous or un-islamic....

This bloke is reported to have organized muslims to demonstrate and MOCK a court process... He is said (with what appear to be reasonable grounds) to be connected with the Muslim brotherhood terror organization...

Pericles.. you have again jumped on and dumped on peoples spelling, and sentence structure, without really looking at the social implications of such a person on our community.

Belly, in some ways I share your view of letting him come here, but only as a hook to hang some publicity on against Islamist extremism and terrorism in a 'friendly' cloak.

In fact.. him coming may even serve the cause of demonstrating the truth proclaimed by the 2 Dannies, and show the ICV for what it really is. ....just another wolf in sheeps garb.

I come back to the 'creating an new (false) religion' concept.. once an idea gains sufficient momentum, its level of falsehood does not change the fact that a lot of people are sucked in by it, and then, it gains political strength, community influence and so on.

Boaz, I was being satirical.

>>Pericles.. you have again jumped on and dumped on peoples spelling, and sentence structure<<

But if you would prefer that I were serious, I will try.

Why are you afraid of this person? What can he possibly say that will be a threat to this country and its people? Here are a couple of quotes from the man.

"These are things that need to be dealt with, because in the final analysis, if we surrender our precious civil liberties, the things that make this nation great, then indeed the terrorists have won."

Are you afraid to find out what those "things that need to be dealt with" are?

Here's another:

"What goes with our faith is to help others, to respond and show compassion when people need it, and I'm glad we can do it."

And another:

"As a Muslim, I can understand the emotional intensity of the issue, however, responding through violence does not uphold the dignity of our faith. Burning buildings and throwing bricks is definitely not the answer"

I don't feel greatly threatened by people who talk like this.

But then, what do I know? My response to the presence of these people - if I were religious, and if I were interested - is to listen and find out, rather than put my hands over my ears going "Lalalalala I can't hear you I can't hear you".

There are not many good reasons for excluding people from visiting our country and talking to us, and so far you haven't convinced me that you have found one.

What does this say about the Islamic Council of Victoria? Is it dominated or at least influenced by a religiously confined underclass intent on confining the rest of us to their cell. I feel sorry for the Muslims who conform to the strictures imposed by their religion they don’t seem to have much fun and their access to information is all screwed up with religious bias and censure.

Boaz seems determined to instill fear in us.

Won't work young fella - we are Australians !

Bring them in and we will have a yarn to them ,and find out what they are on about .

Pericles..if 'lalala' is you in serious mode.. we are in trouble :)

To answer the question.. "What should we be afraid of"? you actually demonstrated it for us all.

Those sugar coated words of his, (something he is reputed for) in themselves are not a problem EXCEPT as they provide camoflage for his 'other' activities such as organizing violent demonstrations and mocking the legal process when it impacts on extremist muslims.
Also.. as they camoflage his alleged connections with the Muslim brotherhood.

Make no mistake Pericles.. people don't normally come out with the ugly side of their agenda when trying to gather public support and sympathy for a political/religious cause.

For a bloke who sees a 'Mosely' behind ever green tree and under every verbal rock of mine.. it rather surprises me that you don't see dangers in a smooth silver tongued orator who has stirred up racial hatred of gigantic and life threatening proportions.. why P ?

K. Jim.. ur right.. we are "Aussies".. why should be be afraid... ( a tiny bit racist there :)

Sure, bring him here... but only so we can make a noise about his core beliefs. So we can point out how his 'smoothness' is just like a chat room paedophile 'grooming' his victims for the real crunch...
Lets point out the people in Australian prisons who are becoming Muslims...just like his 'prison ministry' is producing in the USA.. but what kind ?

You really can't keep on publishing innuendo and passing it off as fact, Boaz.

All your material comes from sites known to be virulently anti-Islam, but even there you will notice that all the "evidence" presented is suspect at worst and circumstantial at best.

You say

>>as [his sugar coated words] provide camoflage for his 'other' activities such as organizing violent demonstrations and mocking the legal process when it impacts on extremist muslims. Also.. as they camoflage his alleged connections with the Muslim brotherhood<<

Here's another quote from the man himself:

"We formed in 1993 to make it clear that we don't take our marching orders from anyone overseas, ... We have no connection to the Muslim Brotherhood."

Fact is, we can't even play "yes he is", "no he's not" games, because there is actually very little of substance to hold against him.

You naturally take the view that this is additional proof of his guilt - clear evidence that his "smooth silver tongued orator" is merely a cover for "stirr[ing] up racial hatred of gigantic and life threatening proportions"

That's a big statement, Boaz, right there. Can you back it up? That Mahdi Bray has "stirred up racial hatred of gigantic and life threatening proportions".

If so, be so kind as to post some of your supporting material here.

Otherwise we are still in "The virginia Uni massacre.. done by a Muslim? 'Ismail X'" territory, aren't we?

He MOCKED a court proceeding in Saudi? Mein Godt in himmel! What next? And he called for a demonstration as a show of solidarity for this chap arrested in that bastion of free speech and democracy? Yeegads!

Yes, we must protect our liberal democracy by banning any foreigners who do the things that liberal democracies allow.

Let's all hail Jihadwatch and Little Green Footballs as the rightful heirs to the new reality of truth, justice or the American way.

Should we be barring people from speaking at public functions because we don’t like what they will say?

I think not. The essence of free speech is, well, free speech.

If we value free speech then Imam Mahdi Bray has as much write to speak in Australia as does Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

See:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21811256-16947,00.html

It should be noted that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a paid provocateur for the notorious American Enterprise Institute, which is a Likudnik "think tank" favoured and populated by hard core war mongering neoconservatives.

She is also an admitted perjurer with a worldview entirely inconsistent with the values of liberal democracy.

Why this obvious contradiction fails to be noticed by the sycophantic adoring media luvvies, one can only speculate. Did Rupert have a cut of her book earnings?

Time for some detailed and exhaustive research on this guy (well a quick run with Google).

First up a short interview shown on youtube from Age of Hooper (whatever that is) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3gFAZvBJKY

He was on the board of directors of the US Interface Alliance http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=290448&ct=146895#2

Plenty of sites making informed and reasoned comments about him - mostly in the vein of "Bray, that's the noise an Ass makes isn't it".

From a muslim site
"Imam Mahdi Bray
Imam W. Mahdi Bray is a long time civil rights activist. He is currently Executive Director of the Muslim American Society, Freedom Foundation (MAS) and the President of the Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO). He also serves on the Board of Directors of the National Interfaith Committee for Worker Justice. He is a Washington, DC televison and radio talk show host and served as a major consultant and a political advisor to Bonner & Associates, Washington's largest grassroots lobbying firm, the National Center for Housing Management, Alexandria City Redevelopment & Housing Authority, Community Relations Department, The City of Norfolk, Virginia, Department of Community Improvement, and the Independent Voter League. He has also served as Political Advisor and Strategist to several national, state, and local political campaigns, and has served as a liaison between the President's White House Faith-Based Intiative Program and congressional affairs on behalf of the Muslim Community." http://www.mtholyoke.edu/org/umma/2nd%20_annual_conference/2nd_conference_speakers.htm

Seems likely that what scares BD is not the risk of this guy provoking hatred, rather that he will be working with muslims to promote interfaith dialog, to promote more reasoned responses to middle east problems etc.

R0bert

Steven... good points. You are probably not so familiar with my long standing campaign against Islam, but it stems in part from the Catch the Fire court case, where FREE SPEECH was sacrificed on the alter of the(UN)Equal Opportunity Commision(VIC) and the Islamic Council's(Vic) predatory and conspiratory attack on the very thing we are speaking about.
It has so far cost the Christian community over $500,000 just to struggle our way though this legal mine field, only to find that a Judge is incapable of understanding the Christian mind-set, let alone the Muslim one which was the object of the 2 Dannies seminar.

While I make a fuss about Bray, I am really making a fuss about this law.

Hirsi Ali is most welcome, and Bray is also, but we have the Muslim community already rattling it's violent sabres, and speaking of hate, etc.. well.. ok 2 give, also ok to receive when it comes to their own speakers. The bottom line is, we MUST be free to criticize ANY religious figure and that includes the Lord Jesus Christ.

I take such serious issue with Islam because they are ready to resort to violence, murder and assassination which is TOTALLY in keeping with the traditions of early Islam and Mohammad himself "Who will RID me of this Ka'b bin Al Ashraf"? he whined.. Mohammed Muslama offer to take a HIT squad.. and sure enough they murdered Ka'b in the night.

If MOHAMMAD is ok with sending out hit squads against political enemies who are resting in their homes.. and he is called 'The Best of Mankind' this is serious cause to challenge Islamic values at every opportunity we have.

What was the difference between Mohammad murdering Ka'b and Pablo Escobar murdering drug trafficing competitors ? NONE.

PERICLES.. thank you for pulling me up on that point about 'stating as fact'.. I slipped on one sentence, I should have added there as I did in other places "reputed to" or 'Reported to'.
cheers

Boaz, are we making some progress here?

From your starting position of "Imam Mahdi Bray must never enter Australia" you have already mellowed to "Hirsi Ali is most welcome, and Bray is also"

Very soon we will have you at Tullamarine with a "Welcome Mahdi" banner.

I'm intrigued by some of your statements here.

>>[the] Judge is incapable of understanding the Christian mind-set, let alone the Muslim one which was the object of the 2 Dannies seminar<<

As I understand it, the sole responsibility of a judge is to apply the law as it stands. I am aware that some of them stretch this definition from time to time, but generally speaking the "letter of the law" approach is the one we have a right to expect.

It would be upsetting if it were to be a requirement for judges to be acquainted with all the various religions that they would come across in the course of their work - it would be a full time job just to keep up with the nuances and subtleties of them all.

And I couldn't help a chuckle at this one

>>"Who will RID me of this Ka'b bin Al Ashraf"? he whined.<<

... with its irresistible echoes of Henry II

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"

Sounds like plagiarism to me. Who would have thought, him being king of England an' all?

LOL justaguy,

If free speech is to be meaningful then even someone you regard as "...a paid provocateur for the notorious American Enterprise Institute, which is a Likudnik "think tank" favoured and populated by hard core war mongering neoconservatives." is allowed her say.

That applies even if she is "an admitted perjurer with a worldview entirely inconsistent with the values of liberal democracy."

Nor does being liked by Rupert Murdoch does not disqualify Ali Hirsi from having her say

I say welcome to Mahdi Bray. Let us see what he has to say.

Recently, we allowed Prof Raphael Israeli (invited by AIJAC)to enter Australia and spread messages of hate against the Australian Muslim community AND essentially tried to influence the Australian government internal policies. I did not hear Boaz say anything then. Prof Israeli compared the term "moderate muslims" to "chaste prostitute". Refer to the ABC Religion report 21st Feb 2007.

Mahdi Bray has visited Australia before and his achiements in multi-faith dialogue is well recognized in the US.

I say educatation and dialogue instead of fear spreading and hate mongering.

I see Boazy's up to his usual tricks. While most of his confabulation has been well dealt with above, I'd like some evidence or corroboration for this little corker:

"This bloke is renowned for a 'quiet and humble eloquence' yet.. he stirs up rallies dedicated to slaughtering Jews.. (in the long run)"

Where and when has Bray advocated "slaughtering Jews", pray tell?

Do enlighten us, please Boazy.

stevenlmeyer, Wednesday, 30 May 2007 6:16:16 PM

I haven't said that she is not entitled to have her say, so your post is a strawman and really not worthy of further consideration.

Your mindset is though. In a thread which begins with some inaccurate hearsay and manufactured "evidence" designed to convince that a person should be barred from our country, you find my statement (which consists of relevant and independently verifiable facts) objectionable or laughable and defend the subject's right to speak here.

Could it be because one is antimuslim and one is muslim that you employ these double standards?

Personally, religion doesn't appeal to me. But I'm quite smitten with the notion of liberal democracy for myself and my offspring and I see the realization of that notion getting further and further away because of the preponderance of examples of double standards as displayed by the original writer and supporters such as yourself.

You're entitled to live your life the way you see fit, in my view. Shame you won't extend the same courtesy to me or, more particularly, Muslims.

If I was a Muslim I'd be much angrier than I am about the way the west is allowing its elites to continue killing my brethren for treasure. I'm pretty angry that this very act is stuffing up the global balance and the chance of peaceful coexistence for generations in the process of (further) enriching the already very wealthy.

I doubt that I'll be invited to the Bilderberg conferences, so what's in it for me?

What are the limits of free speech.

Would an Australian kindergarten be permitted to put on a show like this?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25654_YouTube_Deletes_Copy_of_Hamas_Video&only

"Children in Gaza perform a monstrous play, dressed as suicide bombers and terrorists, waving knives and guns, in front of a crowd of doting parents."

Is this free speech or child abuse?

Wonder why the hamas supporter who apparently posted it on youtube took it down.

CJ... I can't independantly support the claim other than the report contained in "Jihadwatch" which in turn quotes Steven Emmersons book, which presumably refers in a footnote to a newspaper article.

But all I REALLY need to support my claim about him stirring up Muslims to slaughter Jews (and Christians) is this.

1/ Bray is of the Wahhabi mould.(as yet this is only based on various reports, mostly tracable back to Emmersons book) Bray is quoted as lauding the founder of the Wahabi Muslim Brotherhood.

2/ Quran 9:30 calls for "May Allah destroy them" (Christians and Jews)

3/ The Wahabbist view of Surah 9 is clearly spelt out here.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm
Which is a Wahabi site, containing this:

Allah says, "Those who harm Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and in the Next, and has prepared for them a humiliating punishment." (33:57).

CONCLUSION based on these facts.

Anyone who holds a literal and traditional interpretation of the Quran will be promoting values aimed at the destruction of Jews and Christians in THIS world and the next. This includes Bray.

Boaz,

Your last post shows how little you know and shows a clear "cut and paste" attempt to promote your agenda. Wahabism and Muslim brotherhood are opposite side of the spectrum and describing one person as both reveals your real intent.

The core issue here is that your real agenda is not Australia's national interest. Rather it is the interest of Israel. Therefore, anyone who speaks out against Israeli's genocide, occupation and attrocities is laballed as either an anti-semite or, if a muslim, a terrorist or fundamentilist and if a Jew become a self-hating Jew.

Mr Justice, thank you for pointing that out.. the difference between Wahabi and Brotherhood.

Actually, the difference is minor. The Brotherhood emphasises a more 'sufi' approach, and the Wahabi's emphasise the 'Purity' of orignal Islam approach, but the brotherhood and Wahabi movements both promote a much stricter and fundamentalist view of Islam than what today is conveniently described by secular Westerners as 'mainsteam/moderate' Islam.

According to Said Qutb leading intellectual of the Muslim Brotherhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alim_fi-l-Tariq

"The Muslim world had ceased to be and reverted to pre-Islamic ignorance known as Jahiliyya, because of the lack of sharia law. All non-Islamic states are thus illegitimate, including that of his native land Egypt"

and

"The way to bring about this freedom was for a revolutionary vanguard to fight Jahiliyyah with a two-fold approach: preaching, and abolishing the organizations and authorities of the Jahili system by "physical power and Jihaad"

Bray praises Hassan Al Bannah, and this is what he MUST know of the organization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Banna

As the society (Muslim Brotherhood) expanded during the 1930s, it quickly changed from a movement for spiritual and moral reform into an organization directly active on the Egyptian political scene. Concurrent with that transformation, radical tendencies asserted themselves within the organization. A "secret apparatus" (al-jihaz al-sirri) was formed that engineered a series of assassinations of enemies of the brotherhood.

What parallels are there between the Brotherhood then..and Bray now ?

Bray makes sure he is photographed handing out 'gifts to the poor'.
But see what happened to the Brotherhood when it became strong ?

How many times, Boaz, how many times?

>>Bray praises Hassan Al Bannah, and this is what he MUST know of the organization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Banna<<

And what is the first thing you see when you open this page?

"The neutrality of this article or section is disputed."

Which is strong Wikipedia-talk for unreliable.

Follow the link it suggests, to the talk page. You will see a liberal sprinkling of "POV" accusations, which is wiki-talk for "point of view", meaning, quite simply, that it is not the even-handed analysis that one expects from a true encyclopaedia, but just some guy's opinion. There is also a "this article contains gross inaccuracies" comment, which is also a bit of a clue.

This does not deter you from promoting the contents as "evidence", Boaz, but it should. You can say that your opinion is supported by someone else's opinion, but you should not promote suspect articles as being somehow factual.

Wikipedia is an amazing resource. But like everything else on the Internet, its articles should not be used on their own to "prove" a point, especially when the Wikipedia item itself is so heavily qualified. It is careless usage like this that gives Wikipedia a bad name.

Thanks Pericles, as ever. Your patience in responding to Boazy's interminable hate-mongering is something to which I can only aspire. Personally, I have to bite my digital tongue too frequently for me to respond to his asinine pontifications very often.

However, I agree that it's important to stay on his case, since he seems indefatigable in his prosecution of anti-Islamic fervour. In fact, I think he's a kind of Christian Hilali (albeit with even less support from his sectarian cohorts). We can always rely on Boazy to make some outrageous claim, only to try and justify it retrospectively by reference to some Biblical or Quranic fiction. When pressed on the more idiotic aspects of this kind of argument, he usually scuttles away, only to reappear on yet another OLO thread.

Take this: "CJ... I can't independantly support the claim other than the report contained in "Jihadwatch" which in turn quotes Steven Emmersons book, which presumably refers in a footnote to a newspaper article."

What utter nonsense! Boazy's just made yet another wild claim (in this case that Bray supposedly advocates the extermination of Jews), on the basis of a very tenuous Chinese whisper. This is of course, his pattern - a la his infamous Virginia Tech insinuation, or his demonstratedly false claims about various statements from Bob Brown, etc etc etc.

I don't bother responding to Boazy's fantasies very often lately, but I thought that Pericles' able and steadfast rebuttal could do with some support. I don't agree with Pericles on everything, but with respect to the threats increasingly presented to Australian social and cultural life by religious nutters of various persuasions, I agree with everything he's written here on the subject.

Let's send the Muslim, Christian, and whatever other fundies back under their rocks where they belong.

Dangerous stuff C J - But I suspect Boazy already has the Thought Police on your case .

What concerns me is his apparent lumping of all Muslims [since he thinks they can't be trusted ] into a group of people in Australia that we can never, and should never relate to.

This is a very dangerous attitude and one that rightly should be challenged as very wrong .

It is unfortunate he can not put his efforts into improving relations with our Muslim brothers .

Pericles_CJ_and_Kartiya

I refer you to a post by ABCD in the 'Mohammad was a' thread, where he describes political assasination of those saying 'nasty' things about Mohammad as 'so what'.....

Now.. a close look at ABCD's thinking will reveal the SAME thinking of the bloke who murdered Theo Van Gogh. If he subscribes to the idea that those who speak to other non muslim states and who write poetry which would be offensive to MOhammad can be murdered by night
-No Arrest.
-No trial.
-No opportunity to defend the charges.
....they just sent after him like rabid dogs in their fanatic zeal to 'kill the infidel'.

"lets GET the mongrel" <= This..is the founder of Islam.

Contrast this Quranic and Islamic reality from history with the 'sugar coated' answer given today:

http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm

"It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants."

Then, it follows that ABCD would agree that any person at any time, can be murdered for the same reason.
You say 'stirring up hate'..I say 'EXPOSING' hate.

I show you verse after verse of hate mongering in the Quran, and you write these off as 'fictional' not only is that shabby, it is dangerous, not to mention plain incorrect.

Pericles, Emmerson has to live ingonito under constant death threat due to his writings.

IF he slandered, Bray would be suing Emmersons butt off.

CJ..don't give up on me.. I need folks like you to demonstrate how muddy is the thinking of clearly intelligent people. By the way, have you invested in any Nigerian "Opportunities" lately ? :)

Leo Tolstoy "Even in the valley of the shadow of death, 2 and 2 do not make 6"

I feel at home just left of center but think we often fight for others freedoms, while having a quite understanding they would not do the same for us.
This is such a debate, I forever and ever will fight for every ones right to be heard.
But while holding the view there is no God I am quite sure some radical Islamist will stop at nothing to destroy us in the name of their God? truely? one people one world tens of Gods wanting other Gods followers blood? I will not except them in any way as a worthwhile life form.
Bit harsh? no reality will hit even the most reserved of us one day we will know we are indeed threatened by some not all from this community.
I have the gravest concerns that few from within this community publicly say they are opposed to this group.
I think Bush/Howard/ and Blair have helped the radicals with a poorly fought and thought out war they can not win.
But one day we must fight this hate filled, educated to kill group.
You could well ask why are the majority we so often hear exist in the country's these people come from have not destroyed the disease themselves.
Australia should let every one who wants to talk here do so after all we daily hear John Howard's lies.

"I show you verse after verse of hate mongering in the Quran, and you write these off as 'fictional' not only is that shabby, it is dangerous, not to mention plain incorrect."

Genesis 6:7 So the Lord said, I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth - men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air - for I am grieved that I have made them.

Genesis 7:23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out, men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth.

Genesis 1:6-7 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing will be impossible for them. Come let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.

Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah – from the Lord out of the heavens. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities – and also the vegetation in the land.

Genesis 22:2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.”

Some examples from the the first book.

For a taste of what follows
Exodus 11:9-10 The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you – so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.” Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of the country.

Exodus 12:29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

R0bert

</sarcasm>

R0bert, R0bert, when will you learn?

The Bible says these things metaphorically. They are not intended to be taken literally.

The Qur'an of course must not only must be taken literally, but it must be applied directly to the thinking of every contemporary Muslim, because it directs their actions, day and night, 24/7/365. Nessun dorma.

Oh, except for the good bits about compassion and stuff. That's just fluff to disguise the real intent.

Boaz has been saying this for long enough, why have you not understood?

<sarcasm/>

And Boaz, please.

>>Then, based on his poetry and political activities, Mohammad asked who will MURDER him... and Mohammad Maslama volunteered.
The went to him by NIGHT and lied to him, then stabbed him repeatedly until the blood drained from his body and he died<<

How does this compare with:

"This news threw King Henry... into a rage in which he was purported to shout: "What sluggards, what cowards have I brought up in my court, who care nothing for their allegiance to their lord. Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest."

... The knights found him at the altar, drew their swords and began hacking at their victim finally splitting his skull... 'he put his foot on the neck of the holy priest and precious martyr, and, horrible to say, scattered his brain and blood over the pavement'"

You are always very picky with your examples, aren't you?

Back in history, stuff happened. If you were to suggest that Henry II's actions are evidence that Elizabeth II is likely to have your head cut off on a whim, I'd suggest you are delusional.

>>a close look at ABCD's thinking will reveal the SAME thinking of the bloke who murdered Theo Van Gogh<<

That is a fairly serious slur, Boaz. Can you justify it? Or are you once again taking words out of context and building your hate-theories on them?

If I were ABCD, I would be extremely upset at being compared to a vicious fanatic killer. But maybe he is more tolerant of vacuous and thoughtless accusations than I.

Pericles....'No' those events recounted by Robert were not at all mean't to be taken metaphorically, they are history, reality, I haven't got the slightest desire to 'minimise' them into something metaphorical.

The existense of reports of such things is not a signal for us to go out and 'do likewise'. If you can find reasons or commands to that effect, by all means provide them.

Even Elijahs execution of the 400 Prophets of Baal, and presumably the 450 of Ashterath, lets realize that it did not happen without the direct and miraculous act of God in a seal of his soveriegn reality. (read it for details)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=18&version=31

"Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and SLAUGHTERED there."

If you see this as a purely 'human' situation, you did not read the text. I see no resemblance whatsoever to the genocide of Mohammad in a tribal revenge frenzy against the Banu Qurayza Jews.

King Henry and comparing him to Mohammad, Jesus? Henry was just one of many kings, and individual who chose how he wanted to live his life. He did not 'found' a religion as Mohammad or Jesus did. (Though Jesus simply fulfilled the old Testament, not like he 'invented' a religion as Mohammad did)

ABCD .. yes, his way of thinking is a serious concern, and constitutes 'pre-terrorist' mindset. If you are agreeable with the idea of assasinating political enemies while they sleep, then why not members of his family, or his society ?
Remember his response to my raising of Ka'b "So what"?

So PLENTY!.. it means his thinking is a danger to our society. Feed him enough video's about "Oh look how the Great Satan is persecuting the poor innocent Muslims" and who knows where it might lead ?

Pericles, if I may speak in my defence. I'm not the only one who has noticed some rather barbaric and violent statements in that book that is all abouts gods love and justice. Also not the only one who does not appear to realise that each and every one was justified unlike those nasty acts in the Quran.

See the list at
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5860#82409

</sarcasm> - {well maybe it started a bit earlier}
About time we rounded up everybody who holds to that religion and shipped them offshore. If their core documents have that stuff in them then obviously they are a real and present danger to children.
<sarcasm/>

R0bert

Boaz David ,
No doubt about you .
You now give us the "pre-terrorist mindset ".
Just where and from whom do you get this rubbish from ?

Jim - he gets it from God, who speaks to him daily via Jesus. Oh hang on, it's the same thing isn't it? Or maybe it's the Holy Ghost.

At any rate, it's the voices... at least one of them...

Dear Jim.. I 'get' it from the mindset expressed by ABCD who, when presented with the murder of a political enemy by Mohammad said "so what".

That comment was an expression of the values ABCD holds. If you have no problem with murdering those who seek to defend themselves and their own from upstart religious whacko's (i.e. Mohammad) then.. I suppose David Koresh of Waco in-fame would have been quite 'right' to seek out the FBI agents who were investigating him, and simply murdering them.

I promise you, the Singapore government has jailed journalists not so much for the words they said, but for the THINKING behind it.

Psychologically, there must be a development of one's mind in order to committ acts of terror in the name of Religion.

1/ Redefine 'premeditated murder' as.. 'Holy War' and justifiable.
2/ Emphasise the rightness of the religion, and how it is ALLAH who wants his followers to fight for his people.
3/ Feed the person with sufficient propoganda about the suffering of Muslims at the hand of the West, and then feed him many stories of the struggles/battles of the early Muslims.
4/ Show him just how he can be a part of the solution.

In terms of indoctrination, based on ABCD's "so what".. he is ready for step 2 or 3.

I feel its right to point out where his thinking fits in the spectrum of Islamic religious behaviour as a caution for him to re-think his attitude to such things.

*Entertainment for CJ* (others can ignore)

Voices..... those... voices.. am hearing them again... aargh.. can-not es...cape!....

Ok.. serious now:)

TRINIDAD and TOBAGO.

Population approx 1million
Religions:
Catholic 26%
Hindu 22%
Anglican 7.8%
Baptist 7.2%
Pentecostal 6.8%

Total 'Christian' approx 40%

MUSLIM 5.8%
Only political pressure group "Jemaat Al Muslimeen"

Yet, from within that 5.8% Muslim, they managed to raise a 120 man army, which tried to take over the country, by attacking the Parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaat_al_Muslimeen_coup_attempt

In his Eid ul-Fitr message delivered on November 3, 2005 Abu Bakr threatened “war” against Muslims who did not pay zakaat next year. The statement was generally interpreted as a demand that the tax be paid to the Jamaat al Muslimeen.

COMMENT: does anyone remember some "paranoid" bloke here who bleats about 'minorities drive agendas'?

Bray will just encourage the values on which such actions are based.

Well...Boaz and his friends managed to stop Imam Mahdi Bray from coming to Australia in person.

However, thanks to technology, Imam Mahdi Bray was indeed in Australia yesterday via an audio/visual link addressing a large audience of Muslims, Christians, Seik and others.

He delivered a message of hope... a message of peace to all.

Also Anas Altikriti was present in person, had Boaz and his friends known that, I am sure they would not have approved. He also delivered a message of hope and a message of peace to all.