A few nights ago, on 7.30 Queensland, the ABC aired a segment on FGM in Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-04/women-join-campaign-to-end-a-brutal-cultural/5790772

I disagree with some of the comments made, particularly those of Family Planning, Queensland.

Quote "ALYSE EDWARDS: Odette Tewfik has been working for family planning Queensland for 13 years and says local women are continuing the practice on their daughters.

ODETTE TEWFIK, FAMILY PLANNING QLD: Two three families send a ticket to one of the elders and get her to have it done here or another case like they take the child on their holiday and have it done back in their country. It is an act of love because they believe that it's the only way to find a husband.

ALYSE EDWARDS: Health workers say even in cases where they know a child is at risk it's difficult to do anything if a mother denies it.

ODETTE TEWFIK: We will keep an eye one year, two years but if she's planning to do it we cannot do anything about it.

ALYSE EDWARDS: 730 Qld contacted the State Government and police for statistics on female genital mutilation. But found there's no specific data available. A spokeswoman for the Department of Child Safety said while she takes the issue seriously it is a matter for the police. Police haven't prosecuted a case in Queensland. They say finding enough evidence to do so is extremely difficult, but encourage anyone with any information to come forward".

It is an absolute disgrace that no prosecutions have been done in Aus and this worker can admit on TV that women are having their daughters abused in this way. The simple fact is that the politicians and the bureaucrats are more concerned about cultural customs than they are about the welfare of little Aussie girls.

In NSW there is one pending case which keeps getting adjourned and may be heard next year. The is also one case of underage marriage which may get a hearing next year also.

The simple facts are that the state authorities are turning a blind eye and not applying the laws.

Banyo, one persons interpretation of abuse, is another's interpretation of following a custom? Who's right!

Butch,
Are you playing 'devils advocate', I thought you were more knowledgeable and practical to ask that question. Foot binding and honour killing are also customs, so are they abuse? Yeah FGM is abuse no matter how you look at it.

The point of the FGM article on the ABC was that a group of women are advocating against FGM. Well there is an election in 6 months so they have an opportunity to back the mob that say they will stop FGM in Qld.

Now what can be done?

Firstly identify the 'at risk' girls (daughters of those women that have had FGM). Then carry out say annual medical checks on those girls and, if found to have been victims, prosecute the parents and impose serious penalties. This is basically the method used in France where the incidence has been greatly reduced. France also has laws that allow for medical evidence alone to convict parents.

Currently the estimate is that in Aus 3 girls a day are at risk of FGM. We should not allow this ongoing pain and suffering or carry the cost burden of FGM by our society.

The formula to stop FGM in Aus is not rocket science. We simply have to enforce the current laws.

Perhaps Suseonline could give us the benefit of her midwifery knowledge and experience on FGM and any effects that it has on ease or otherwise of delivery.

Dear Banjo,

Yes, FGM is abuse no matter how you look at it.
(and so is MGM)

As individuals we should be disgusted and not befriend or have any dealings with people who do it.

But we can't do without some philosophical framework to justify the right of the state to interfere in internal family affairs.

If for example a parent ever asks for any benefit from the state (including welfare, health-care, child-care, incorporation, employment in the public sector or police and judicial protection against the actions of others), that is the time when the state may legitimately tell them: "OK, we are willing to help, but there are conditions and one of them is NO FGM".

Another circumstance which allows the state to interfere, is when either parent or the daughter herself, of any age, asks for the state's protection (which she could even do by making a phone call or visiting a police-station).

If any of the above occurred, then as you say, punishment for FGM should be severe.

If however, none of the above occurred, if the family never asked anything of the state, nor any of its members, then the state has no right to impose its norms on that family.

This may seem pedantic, but nothing short of that can prevent a slippery slope ending in gross violations of individual and religious freedoms.

Yuyutsu,
Off topic but I saw this and thought it may interest you.

http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/news/Howard-bikerider-pedals-theory-police/2408449/

Banjo, yes FGM is horrible.

When are you planning to start a thread on MGM?

Or is the real reason you started this FGM thread not because it's a despicable act and you feel "genuine" empathy towards the victims, but because you associate it with Islam and non white people? And this gives you the chance to attack the people you hate, Aussie Muslims and non white people. I clicked on your name and read a few posts from your history; yes, you must feel very alone now that the White Australia policy has long passed.

Banjo, please hurry up with the MGM thread.

Dear Banjo,

It is indeed your monthly call to arms but in celebration of the fact you haven't mentioned Islam or Muslims permit me to contribute this perspective.

I am grateful that Australia is providing a place where migrants have a chance to untangle themselves from this insidious cultural practice. Norwegian research has shown FGM rates drop dramatically in subsequent generations of migrants and the fact that we are prepared to take refugees from places like Eritrea where FGM rates are nearly 90% means we will have helped saved thousands of women from this practice, something we should be justly proud of.

Quote;

Somali interviewees in Norway indicated that they were removed from the social pressure to undertake FGM/C which exists in Somalia (Gele et al 2012a). They expressed that individuals in both communities may dislike FGM/C, but those in Somalia are more likely to undergo the practice as there is considerable pressure to do so. In Norway, it is a matter of pride and prestige to be uncircumcised, with no stigma.

Without the surrounding stigma, potential teasing and majoritarian pressure, parents felt more able to leave their daughters uncut. Younger Somali men in Oslo all said they would prefer to marry uncircumcised Somali girls (Gele 2012a). This is a strong condition for change, as if uncut girls are seen as marriageable, parents are unlikely to want to circumcise them. Similarly, much of the literature stresses that second-generation immigrant girls can be subjected to FGM/C when taken to home countries on holiday.

First-generation Somali immigrant mothers in Norway reported feeling fearful that their own mothers would pressure them into circumcising their daughters (Gele, 2012a). Londoners from Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia agreed that parents in the UK felt less pressure to circumcise their daughters, especially being removed from extended family, particularly grandmothers (Norman, et al. 2009). Grandmothers’ decisions are powerful in Somalia and they carry considerable importance (Gele, 2012a). Being further away from family can help diaspora members resist pressures to behave in a certain way (Johnsdotter et al, 2008).
http://www.gsdrc.org/docs/open/HDQ1108.pdf

May May,

MGM can be a desirable state to be in, I have never met a man who missed having a foreskin but I have known a few who in later life (relative to the usual time of snipping), i.e. twenties, who had to have it removed or cut back, for medical reasons, and they were 100% in favour.

Is Mise, here's a lengthy and complicated medical analysis of the MANY complications of circumcision (MGM) http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html

MGM is an unnatural and hideous mutilation based on ancient, superstitious religion, that has found it's way into general society of "some" nations. The incidence of MGM has been declining rapidly in Australia over the past few decades, and rightly so.

FGM is a much more serious mutilation, because the clitoris is removed. This fact does not mitigate the serious nature of MGM.

May May,

"MGM is an unnatural and hideous mutilation based on ancient, superstitious religion, that has found it's way into general society of "some" nations. The incidence of MGM has been declining rapidly in Australia over the past few decades, and rightly so."

It is certainly unnatural,but then so many of the things that humans do to their bodies are unnatural.
I admit to an unnatural practice a few times each week myself, but only in private.

Circumcision of males is not a hideous mutilation; from personal experience no woman has ever found my penis to be hideous, other adjectives of a positive nature have been used however.

The circumcised member is considered to be more aesthetic and that is why circumcised men gain more employment in the porn industry than do the untrimmed, or so I'm told but this may not be so.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110215232916AAnH0ub

Anyway the practice in no way compares to FGM.

My experience of the cut and the uncut is restricted (apart from personal experience) to the problems faced by men under service conditions especially where washing facilities were non-existent.

Some Aboriginal Australians practiced circumcision and their practices are not necessarily based on ancient superstitions but may be based on practicality in both desert and tropical conditions and incision of almost the complete length of the urethra may (but only may) be based on a desire to limit conceptions.
Without a written history it is impossible to tell as the practices are presumed to be very old.
http://www.circumstitions.com/Australia.html

Dear Is Mise,

I lived for nearly 3 years in the Southern Philippines during the seventies. There were quite a number of expats who were keen on marrying Philipino women. However these woman would not have a bar of an uncircumcised male. Of those who underwent the procedure a number expressed a fair degree of regret for having done so. It appears a marked decrease in sensitivity quite unfavourably impacted their enjoyment of the sexual act.

Those of us who have had the procedure done in infancy really have little idea of what we might be missing. If a male wants to be circumcised when they become an adult for religious, aesthetic, comfort or medical reasons I would say go for it. But I don't think others should be making that decision for them.

Since this report two more babies in New York have died from herpes related complications following having their penis sucked after circumcision.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-dies-herpes-virus-ritual-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

Why is it that the deeply religious in certain parts of the world find the need to interfere with the genitalia of the prepubescent? I would make any non-medical surgery of minors illegal in a flash.

SteeleRedux,

Strange things happen in the Philipines and elsewhere in East Asia, penile beading was (is) carried out on a do it yourself basis where the male would insert little river pebbles under the skin of the penis to produce an effect akin to modern beading. Unfortunately I cannot at the moment find my Anthrop. notes but this gives a good view of the subject.
http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/library/e-text/Edwards/Edwards_scans/The%20Penis%20Inserts%20of%20Southeast%20Asia%20%20A%20Bibliography,%20Overview,%20and%20Comparative%20Analysis.pdf

Let me see if I understand this.

FGM is illegal in Australia, am I correct?

So, anyone found practising FGM in Australia will be prosecuted, yes?

Therefore by definition, the practice is not overtly conducted, and can only be discovered in the normal course of events by the offence being reported.

Presumably, when this happens, the law is applied.

So it is a crime very similar to child abuse - and also of course spouse abuse - where for various reasons, some of which are cultural, those affected may not readily come forward and either confess or complain.

In what significant way does FGM differ?

So, Banjo, what is it all about?

>>The simple facts are that the state authorities are turning a blind eye and not applying the laws.<<

I don't think that it is either simple, or indeed a fact. Suspecting that something might be going on in the privacy of someone's life does not indicate a blind eye, nor that laws are not being applied.

>>Firstly identify the 'at risk' girls (daughters of those women that have had FGM). Then carry out say annual medical checks on those girls and, if found to have been victims, prosecute the parents and impose serious penalties.<<

On what grounds can you mandate "annual medical checks". How will you identify your target "at risk" girls anyway - 'the authorities" would need to have access to the medical records of everyone in the country, and exactly who would that "authority" be. And given that one or two might "slip through the net", will you make that "authority" responsible for the outcome?.

Nice dog whistle, though.

may May,
I have absolutely no intention of starting a thread on MGM, but feel free to do so yourself if you desire. I see your attempt to divert this thread.

If you make false claims to hide your true motives, do not attribute your low morals to others. Has it occurred to you that some people simply find FGM abhorrent and it should not happen to little Aussie girls. I notice you did not mention how to decrease the incidence. So your true feelings are that FGM should continue to increase. Yep cultural practice has to be considered before child protection. Your a true multiculturalist.

Is MSE, interesting paper on penis insertions. Hope it does not become fashionable here, however one cannot say as there is plenty of body piersing and tats around.

Steele, good to see you are doing some reading, fancy, you found an article in one European country that suggests FGM will decrease by doing nothing. I doubt it as the practice is so ingrained. The penalties will have to be harsh for that to occur.

The current migrants are informed that FGM and underage marriage is illegal here, before they obtain their visas. They deliberately break our laws.

Banjo wrote this, "Your true feelings are that FGM should continue to increase" AFTER I wrote this, "FGM is a serious mutilation", "Yes, FGM is horrible", "It's a despicable act".

Banjo, on another thread I asked runner if he'd like some personal counseling from a pastor I know. In the same spirit of helping the disadvantaged, I also know a very good and caring English tutor --- would you like her number so you could receive some helpful tuition in how to understand written words? I think you're an old man, so maybe you missed your education during the Great Depression. Times were hard then.

Pericles,
Firstly, yes FGM is illegal in all states and has been for 20 years. Secondly there has not been one prosecution in Aus. There is plenty of antidotal evidence that FGM is occurring here. Some major hospitals have specialist units to deal with post FGM problems. Health and Family planning workers admit that they see victims.

You are wrong, the law is not enforced. It is supposed to be mandatory that medicos report FGM and no action is taken. Either doctors are not reporting FGM or authorities not following up. That is ignoring the matter.

Identifying the 'at risk' girls is simple. The medical records of all women that give birth will note if she has had FGM, it is the daughters of these women that are at risk.

May May,
You said, "Or is the real reason you started this FGM thread not because it's a despicable act and you feel "genuine" empathy towards the victims, but because you associate it with Islam and non white people? And this gives you the chance to attack the people you hate, Aussie Muslims and non white people. I clicked on your name and read a few posts from your history; yes, you must feel very alone now that the White Australia policy has long passed".

So dearie, I consider you to be a hair brained woman that has not a clue, so if you don't like criticism and assumptions made about you, then do not make offensive and incorrect remarks about others.

Banjo doesn't like the FACT that I wrote this --- "FGM is a serious mutilation", "Yes, FGM is horrible", "It's a despicable act".

I just love Banjo's "assumption" that my "feelings are that FGM should continue to increase". Which of course was written AFTER I wrote the above 3 things on this thread.

Banjo old fella, the English tutor offer is still available.

FGM is a criminal assault, custom, religion or culture or not, and it needs to be addressed in the courts.
But then we don't have capital or corporal punishment any more do we so there is no real justice.
What sort of a mongrel would do this to his child?
This is what happens when you import cultures.
Imagine what goes on in their own countries...behind closed doors.
FMG the child then castrate the fathers.

As soon as I spotted the title of this thread, I knew it was written by Banjo.

As much as you rant and rave about May May calling you out on your true reasons for writing this post, I know you really do care about 'the poor little girls', but you care more about stopping Muslims coming to Australia.
This is just your transparent way of drumming up anti-Muslim feelings again.

FGM is illegal in Australia, and I have no doubt there have been prosecutions.
The only women I have seen in the labour wards with this awful mutilation were cut in other countries. The births of their babies was horrendous.

They told me what had happened to them, how they were held down and had their genitals cut without anaesthetic when they were children.
I realised that in that same hospital, we were holding down little baby boys so the doctors could cut off their foreskins without anaesthetics too.

I am glad we don't condone that barbaric practice anymore either, unless it is medically necessary, and then done under anaesthetic.

Thank you, Suse, my wife is a nurse and what you say bears out what she, and other nurses have told me.
One midwife, that I knew very well over 25 years ago, refused to discuss
FGM as her experiences caused her much anguish; she became quite angry remembering births at which she had assisted.

Suseonline,
You said, "FGM is illegal in Australia, and I have no doubt there have been prosecutions".

Sorry Suse but you are wrong, there has not been one prosecution to date and FGM was made illegal in all states in 1994-5. I challenge you, and anyone else, to find a prosecution of a cutter or a parent or other person that participated in, or arranged, an act of FGM.

It looks to me that it will take a death, or two, of an unfortunate girl to generate enough public support to instigate the changes necessary to stop FGM in Aus. That will be a pity as I am convinced it can be stopped by enforcing our present laws. The French get convictions and have dramatically reduced the FGM rate, so why can't we?

While we sit on our collective bums and do nothing, we put about 1100 young girls at risk of FGM each year in Aus. Sure we can blame the politicians, but we elect them and they lie to us.

Banjo said, "There has not been one (FGM) prosecution to date/ since 1994-5".

Oh dear, Banjo Banjo Banjo. I read your post several minutes ago. Then I immediately typed the appropriate search term into google, then 20 seconds later I had this http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-11/prosecutions-and-help-follow-fgm-reports/4422480

So in a mere 20 seconds, I was able to find 8 FGM prosecutions in just ONE state during a mere 2 month period between October and December 2012.

Banjo really hates non whites and Muslims (he thinks they are always one and the same), and he's prepared to tell untruths in order to advance his un-Australian agenda.

May May,
You really are a stupid woman.

Note the date, it was 2012. The eight charged in NSW is now reduced to 3 and the case has still to come before the court. I referred to this in my first post, it keeps getting adjourned and may be heard next year.

The WA case was dropped.

So silly woman, try again.

I must commend the ABC for raising the issue of FGM occasionally. While persons such as May consider it important for all immigrants to retain their cultures, irrespective of how alien the culture may be, rather than protect little girls May thinks it far more important to attack the motives of those who raise the issue.

Maybe May would like us to condone burning wives, acid attacks or consumption of dog meat, dolphins or human placenta. Or how about stoning adulterous women and honour killing. Multiculturalists want all cultural practices

yep FGM is abhorent although chopping up unborn babies much worse. Islam and secularism are both death cults.

Banjo keeps trying really, really hard and he keeps failing really really badly. He's very loose with the truth, and just isn't man enough to admit he got it wrong.

Banjo's false initial claim was, "There has not been one (FGM) prosecution to date". Then with a 20 second google search I proved him to be a liar. EIGHT people were "prosecuted", and FOUR of those prosecutions against one man and 3 women remain in place due to legal argument in the court system http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-sheikh-in-court-over-female-genital-mutilation-20120913-25ubq.html And there's 1 further "prosecution" that's been launched against a man who had arranged from Australia for an FGM to be performed outside Australia when he travelled with his daughter http://www.au.ibtimes.com/articles/532562/20140102/female-genital-mutilation-sydney-circumcision-nsw.htm#.VDPuehZqOM_

So, I have now fully proven that Banjo can't tell the truth, and then proceeds to try to cover up his lies. I have proved there's FIVE current "prosecutions" before the court. Banjo falsely stated "there has not been one (FGM) prosecution to date".

Banjo has been twisting the truth because he thinks it suits his pro white/anti Muslim agenda. He thinks Aussie Muslims aren't "white".

On the other hand, maybe he's not bright enough to understand the difference between a prosecution and a conviction --- but surely, surely he couldn't be that dense, could he?

Banjo, if you are unable to admit that you are wrong on factual issues, it is hardly surprising that your motives for bringing this practice to our attention will be questioned.

>>Pericles, Firstly, yes FGM is illegal in all states and has been for 20 years. Secondly there has not been one prosecution in Aus.<<

You have already been called out on the prosecutions. So let's concentrate on your "remedy".

>>Identifying the 'at risk' girls is simple<<

There is no argument, FGM is unacceptable under Australian law. There is no argument, child abuse is unacceptable under Australian law. There is no argument, spouse abuse is unacceptable under Australian law. Applying your logic equally to these three entirely accurate statements, you would require, by law, that every spouse and every child is examined regularly by state officials, to determine whether abuse has taken place.

So the only possible conclusion is that you are having a really hard blow on the whack-a-mozzie dog whistle.

You and madam speaker make a fine pair.

May May, and perciles,
The simple fact is that no prosecutions have taken place in Australia in relation to FGM. Some persons have been charged but no court cases have been heard and most have been dropped. The NSW case has been adjourned numberous times and is now due sometime next year. The WA case was dropped. No one has yet had a hearing.

You can try and spin it anyway you like but that is the fact. There is another, more recent, pending prosecution but not sure when that is due.

May May is lying when she claims there have been prosecutions, none has occurred to date.

Contrast this to France where about 100 convictions have occurred. It will certainly be a milestone when one case is heard here.

You cannot see that you are contradicting yourself, Banjo, within a single sentence.

>>May May, and perciles, the simple fact is that no prosecutions have taken place in Australia in relation to FGM. Some persons have been charged<<

What you do mean, of course, is that there have been no convictions, that we are aware of.

But you still cannot escape the fact that you don't seem at all interested in addressing any of the pragmatic difficulties associated with the crime. The Perth case was dropped, for example, because the act itself had not occurred, and there was no way to prove intent. You prefer to selectively intrude on lives of a specific cohort of Australians, simply in order to further your whack-a-mozzie campaign.

Transparent as.

Some of the other Female Mutilations want looking at as well, particularly the ones done to girl children,

We could start with ear piercing for starters which is often done to children who are not old enough to give informed consent.

Then there is the practice of introducing children to make-up so that their skin acquires enlarged pores so that they then feel the need for make-up for the rest of their lives.

One wonders weather treatment for foot/leg/back deformities caused by 'fashionable' footwear, in particular high heels should be covered by Medicare.
Why should the rest of the population have their hard-earned go to treat these avoidable conditions?

The same goes for men who poke extra holes in their bodies.

Pericles,
No, a prosecution occurs when the crown presents its case to the court, of alleged offences, after which defendant has his say. This has not occurred in Aus. Only some allegations have been made and the majority of those have been withdrawn. The few remaining are yet to get a hearing. This is over a 20 year period. In fact only in NSW and WA have some charges been made. Not even any charges made in any other state. I find that amazing, especially when Vic has the Royal Womens Hospital which treats more women for post FGM matters than any other hospital.

Yet the antidotal evidence mounts that FGM is occurring, like the comments from the Family Planning Queensland worker on ABC TV.

Which ever way it is looked at, the politicians and bureaucrats are covering up and turning a blind eye to the plight of these little girls. The legislation is in place to stop FGM, it is a matter of acting on it.

France is a good example that prosecutions do reduce FGM and we should follow that lead.

Pericles,
In reference to your whack-a-mozzie claim.

Below is a facebook post and reply from No FGM Australia, to which I belong. No FGM Australia had posted an event they are hosting on the Sunshine Coast this month.

Geoffrey Smith Another horrific, barbaric feature of Islam being perpetrated on our society with supposed immunity,..where does it stop?

Like · Reply · October 4 at 4:23pm
..

No FGM Australia Hello Geoffrey. Although there are some schools of Islam which claim FGM is islamic requirement, the majority of muslim scholars reject this and state that it is an unislamic practice which predates Islam. In fact both women who are survivors of FGM in the article are non-muslims, one is an orthodox Christian from Eritrea and the other was initiated into "Bondo" which is a rite of passage practiced in Sierra Leone and Liberia using FGM as the brutal ritual initiation. However everyone must stand against FGM as a form of violence. There is no excuse for violence whether it is religious, cultural or traditional.

Dear Banjo,

FGM is illegal in Australia - and of course it
must be stopped. However, we need to look at
the bigger picture.

We need to try to influence attitudes towards
women in general. A lot of these countries that
practice FGM women are widely viewed as being
in some sense the sexual property of men, and so
are expected to be suitably submissive and deferential.

A striking illustration of this submission is the
way women learn to hide, reveal, or distort their
bodies in accordance with the prevailing male notions of
how women should appear.

In traditional China, men admired tiny female feet -
so girls' feet were permanently deformed through
footbinding, a painful practice that left them barely able
to walk. In some West African tribes where men admire
very plump women, young girls deliberately fatten
themselves into obesity in order to attract a husband.

Among some North African people women have for generations
submitted to brutal surgery to remove their clitoris -
supposedly to reduce their sexual appetites and thus keep
them faithful to their husbands.

In North America, where large, firm breasts have been admired
for most of this century, millions of women have had their
breasts surgically reshaped or enlarged.

Now that men's ideal for womanhood is shifting to a leaner,
more athletic look, dieting has become a female obsession,
with over a third of American women considering themselves
too fat. Every year in fact, millions of
young American women starve themselves to the point of
anorexia, no less compulsively than some of their West
African counterparts who gorge themselves to plumpness.

So the point that I am trying to make here is - we have
to get the message across in our society of basically
changing attitudes and mindsets of both men and women from
the prevailing stereotypes - which shape the way they
relate to one another. Not an easy task - especially when
dealing with different cultures. But of course we have to
try.

Foxy,
While it would be good to 'fix the world' we need to fix what we can in Aus.

Migrants are informed about our laws and society before they obtain a visa to come here. They understand that certain things are illegal but at present they know that FGM can be practiced if they keep it quiet.

We have quietly turned a blind eye for too long and now we have to make it clear that FGM will not be tolerated and there will be severe penalties for those carrying it out.

The parents of any girl/woman born here that has been a victim of FGM should be prosecuted. Her parents will be found out when they become grandparents, if not before. It is recorded on medical records if a mother to be has had FGM. That is, or should be, mandatory reporting. It has to be treated the same as any other form of serious child abuse, even 10 or 20 years after the event.

Dear Banjo,

Of course we should monitor and keep an eye on those
who break our laws - and punish them as
the courts find appropriate. However, looking at our own
attitudes wouldn't hurt either. I'm not too concerned
about the future of this country. As history has shown
us things do change with time and assimilation.
Especially for the younger generations.

International research has shown that some measure of
assimilation is inevitable for ethnic communities.
Even seemingly airtight and isolated colonies, such as
the Amish or Hasidic Jews, cannot totally escape a
slight touch of assimilation. Furthermore, assimilation
is a two-way process.

As an immigrant absorbs the culture of his host country,
he is also giving off and surrendering some of his own
imported heritage. As a result, a Muslim living in
Australia for a long time is likely to gradually create
a new identity, although he may not be aware of it.
What the former immigrant still believes to be his Muslim
identity may well be regarde as totally Australian by
contemporary residents of his home country.

Foxy,

No Muslims can be Australians until they reject many of the teachings of Muhammad and they cannot do that without rejecting the Koran, the handed down sacred word of Allah.

Go figger.

Dear Is Mise,

Just like Christians who don't always follow
the Bible to the letter. I know of quite a few
Muslims who do the same with the Koran.

The problem is that where the imported culture is diametrically opposed to the host country's and the migrants are brought in in numbers and particularly where they group together, there is a stronger likelihood that they will not only preserve the toxic elements of their imported culture but it will become stronger.

There are many examples of that process around the world and in Australia. A couple of examples could be taken from migrants coming from the Mediterranean, where there can be a continuation of kidnap brides and honour killings, despite those practices later becoming illegal and unusual in their originating countries.

The multicultural political correctness that enabled the importation of a highly toxic political system to the UK from Pakistan saw the Labour Party implicated in the Rotherham child sex trafficking. The corruption is systemic, resilient and claimed to be continuing. Few offenders have appeared before the courts.

The question begging to be answered is what could possibly cause the government of a western democracy to deliberately bring in migrants from an area where the culture is completely opposed to the host country's?

Blaming the host country for the importation and continuation of toxic practices, ritual slaughter is another easy example, is completely unreasonable. It is their choice. Unfortunately, political parties and therefore governments can be blackmailed by ethnic lobbyists and their apologists into conceding to their demands.

Again, the illegal underground, then later approved ritual animal slaughter conducted by Muslims and Jews is a good example, and it is only farmers who remain resolutely opposed to the practice. One or two percent of the vote in a swinging seat says they can have what they want if they vote Labor.

Australia is very short of skilled trades. In developed countries with similar democratic and legal traditions there are many skilled tradesmen who cannot find work and who, along with their families, would very much like to leave behind the messes their 'Progressive' politicians have wrought.

Why would Australia be giving preference to unskilled migrants who are opposed to its legal traditions and democracy and want to import their own corrupt and Middle Ages cultural imperatives instead?

Demographers predict that the US is only a few decades away from the present majority population (and culture) becoming the 'minority majority' as Hispanic and other migrants with their large families are replacing them. The minority majority effect is already apparent in annual births.

Do the responsible administrations in the US have the blessing of the electorate for that social experiment? Have the politicians even bothered to enquire of the public if that is what they want? Why not? Is it only serving the insatiable growthism of big business?

What about Australia? Will the electorate ever be permitted to vote on the 'diversity-we-have-to-have'? The public is due a better response than the usual, 'Never you mind'.

Yes, Foxy, but the Christians who deviate don't risk death at the hands of their fellow Christians, not even in Northern Ireland, where the killing of Protestants, by their fellow religonists, for marrying Catholics is, it seems, a thing of the past.

No one can be expected to take this seriously when there is still mainstream male genital mutiltion going on. Both of these barbaric practices are. A violation of human rights.

Robbb,

As is ear piercing and allowing children under the age of consent to use pore clogging makeup.

We can't stop male circumcision in Australia because it is a cultural practice among some Aboriginal tribes,

"....Some tribes subincise (slit underneath), not just the foreskin, but most of the length of the penis, opening up the urethra. The reason given for the operation is to draw blood for ritual uses, but that does not explain why so much is done, and just there[*]...."

See: http://www.circumstitions.com/Australia.html for more on this.

"Sterility

The second reason blamed initiation into the law as inducing sterility among Aboriginal men. Included in the list of rites was circumcision and 'whistle cocking'. [16] While circumcision was widely used, sometimes a tribal group practised whistle cocking. This is a still current method used by Aboriginal males for contraception."
* Seems like an extreme form of 'whistle cock'

See: http://kudnarto.tripod.com/ch30.htm

Good on you Banjo. Female circumcision should be regarded as a crime punishable by law, despite the practice being part of some religious beliefs and customs. The definition as I read, I believe on this forum, causes even stronger feelings against this practice. ' The removal of the clitoris, (sometimes other exposed flesh) is to discourage promiscuity, often the girls parts are stitched closed(leaving only a space for urination) to enhance the sexual pleasure of the male.' When sexual intercourse does take place the girls have to be yet again, mutilated for entry.

Just in regards to one of the points in my last post. 'clitoris is removed to stop promiscuity'. I really cannot imagine any of these little girls being sexually promiscuous. Fearful and submissive yes. Likely to be the instigator of sexual intercourse? Of course not they are children. Even after FMG the girls are inspected to ensure they are still 'intact'. Adultery carries severe punishment for the female even if it taken by force. She has bought shame upon her family, and a family member/s carry out the punishment.
It appears the sexual promiscuity and lustful urges lie elsewhere. And the innocent ones become victims once again

Ahem, jodalie.

>>Female circumcision should be regarded as a crime punishable by law<<

FGM is indeed a crime punishable by law in Australia.

"At present, female genital mutilation is criminalised exclusively by State and Territory laws. All States and Territories have passed criminal legislation prohibiting female genital mutilation. Further, in each State and Territory, these laws apply extraterritorially to protect Australian residents from being subjected to female genital mutilation overseas. Accordingly, existing legislation provides extensive criminalisation of female genital mutilation both within and outside Australia"

http://www.ag.gov.au/Publications/Pages/ReviewofAustraliasFemaleGenitalMutilationlegalframework-FinalReportPublicationandforms.aspx

Just setting the record straight, that's all.