In the news yesterday - Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis hovers threateningly close to Australia, just up there in PNG

http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/198/7/extensively-drug-resistant-tuberculosis-hovers-threateningly-australia-s-door

XDR-TB raises concerns of a future TB epidemic with restricted treatment options, and jeopardizes the major gains made in TB control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensively_drug-resistant_tuberculosis

This is surely of very significant concern. Perhaps it will be the first really significant antibiotic-resistant disease to ravage humanity… with many more to follow.

It would appear that it IS going to come to Australia, and IS going to spread rapidly abroad. It is already known from various other parts of the world.

And it would appear that newly evolving strains of all manner of diseases will appear and wreak havoc on humanity.

Now for the really controversial bit – Perhaps in the long term this could actually be a good thing, if it brings the human population down by a couple of billion.

I see your humanitarian streak shining through again, Ludwig.

>>Perhaps in the long term this could actually be a good thing, if it brings the human population down by a couple of billion<<

Anyone who can call the deaths of a billion people a "good thing" needs to take a long, hard look at their moral compass.

Ludwig, you were going well until this;
<<Now for the really controversial bit – Perhaps in the long term this could actually be a good thing, if it brings the human population down by a couple of billion>>
Nothing controversial in that, you make Hitler and Stalin look like a couple of real softies.
Just lovely, have you told your family and friends you hope they all contract TB and die a slow and painful death. You can explain to them how its a win win situation, they will be helping to bring down the human population, which cannot be a bad thing. But you might miss the fun, you could get it first.
Do you actually read what you post, or do you believe it? Such a sicko statement.

Ludwig, while it is a sick statement, it's one of those instances where telling it like it is is taboo.

I would hate to see a couple of billion die from this, or any other manner, including starvation but, there is an answer, and it's about as humane as you can get, it's called birth control, but for some reason we have all these people willingly throwing money at the problem while ignoring the solution.

To others, he did say it was a bad statement to make, so you can't hang him for that, and yes Paul, he Obviously did read it before he posted it.

So Paul, would you have responded at if I hadn’t added that last paragraph?

Are you actually interested in the very important subject of drug-resistant TB and other diseases, which we have largely got on top of, but which are now set to re-emerge and become enormously problematic?

Or is this thread going to be just another vehicle for the likes of those on the Rolf Harris thread to vent their spleens without really addressing the subject at hand?

Hey, OF COURSE my last statement in the opening post is highly controversial. And OF COURSE we don’t ever want TB or any other disease to result in a loss of human life to the extent of it actually bringing the global population down significantly... or ANY loss of life at all for that matter.

Of course I was playing for a reaction with that statement.

So, now that you are on this thread, are you going to discuss the REAL subject that I have raised?

.

Great post rehctub. Thankyou.

The solution is twofold, birth control and social security for the aged and in societies that lack the second the first cannot be achieved to any extent for there are many societies where the only way for people to have some security in old age is to have many children.

Address the security for the aged problem and birth control will be taken up as a happy option.

Ahh Ludwig, I am in the same boat as you !
Oil production decline will lead to a decline in world population as
our population has only reached this level because of cheap energy.
It enabled much higher food production per farmer.

Without cheap energy a farmer will only produce a tenth of his present output.
So we will need ten times the number of farmers or one tenth the world population.

No ifs, no buts. No way around it.
Starve or malnutrition for 6 billion people.

rehctub What rubbish <<To others, he did say it was a bad statement to make, so you can't hang him for that, and yes Paul, he Obviously did read it before he posted it.>>

How does saying <<Now for the really controversial bit>> suddenly become "bad statement", CONTROVERSIAL; of, pertaining to, or characteristic of controversy, it does not mean bad.
Even the Nazi's thought gassing Jews was "controversial" they never said it was "bad".
Ludwig, you could have easily said "It is not something I agree with, and it is controversial, but perhaps in the long term this could actually be a good thing, if it brings the human population down by a couple of billion."
You never said anything of the sorts in your opening statement. You now profess your opinion to be; << Hey, OF COURSE my last statement in the opening post is highly controversial. And OF COURSE we don’t ever want TB or any other disease to result in a loss of human life to the extent of it actually bringing the global population down significantly... or ANY loss of life at all for that matter.>> fortunately you added the last line to that statement, as it could have been interpreted that if the number of deaths was insignificant, say 500 million out of 7 billion, then that would be quite okay. Ludwig I'll take on board your later position, not your opening position.
So, now that you are on this thread, are you going to discuss the REAL subject that I have raised? Yes, super bugs spreading uncontrolled disease pose a terrible threat to mankind. We tend to given them scant regard whilst they proliferate in the the third world, but if they raise their ugly heads in the developed, well then it becomes a completely different story. We should be spending a lot more on research long before they become our problem, because then it might be too late.

If we don't want to kill but not overpopulate either then there's only one solution, birth control !
Some morons are even against that.

Well, maybe the $7 a visit for medical research would have been
a good thing after all.

Bazz 7 dollars a visit would have been a good thing, even if all it did was reduce the entitlement mentality of so many in our community. Any contribution to the deficit would also be useful.

After a blood test, & 3 doctors visits this week that would have cost me $28.00, if we had bulk billing out here in the sticks.

As it was it cost me $52.00, cheap at 3 times the price, & certainly not a good enough reason to live in suburbia, where it would be bulk billed & free.

Nice waffle Paul, as I caught his drift in his first post, I also suspect you did as well but some just have to have a crack at people, perhaps you're one.

So, as Ludwig has said, are you going to add to this thread, or just sit on the outside throwing stones.

Can't help but wonder if this outbreak in PNG has come from the illegals given that poor young fellow has all but died from a cut foot. The first step in stopping TB from entering Australia woukd be to stop people coming here, legally or illegally.

As for our situation, I don't think we are over populated at all. It's just that 90% of our people choose to live on 10% of the land. Figure of speech.

Having said that, if we continue down the path of entitlements, we will be very much over populated, over populated with hanger onners that is, sitting back expecting others to carry the can. But I doubt.by Abbotts actions so far that he will allow this to continue, or he will die trying. Politically that is.

Luddy I don't know why you talk to that poster.

It is obvious that she, & a few others, are not interested in any subject, just in scoring the odd cheap point, usually with nothing to do with the subject.

This is a serious subject worthy of serious discussion. The question of whether we should let these people enter the Torres Strait islands has reparations for all Ozzies.

There is no doubt that we are degrading the species with western medicine. We are supporting all types of people, with defective systems, through to breeding age. In our natural habitat many with simple diseases such as asthma, diabetes etc. would never have survived to breed. Now they do, & the explosion of these problems is greeted with surprise.

My ladies mother has so far passed asthma to 2 kids & 6 grand kids. Our generosity in these things could well be the death of the species.

That should fix it, I've now killed off 8 billion, leaving you for dead. [did you like that one? I'm not sure if I am proud of it].

rehctub,

"Can't help but wonder if this outbreak in PNG has come from the illegals given that poor young fellow has all but died from a cut foot..."

I challenge you to walk through raw sewage with a cut foot and then receive improper care - and see how long you last.

Note - that Australia's offshore camps sport state of the art open sewers.

rehctub, since you raised a favourite hobby horse of yours and the other 'Usual Suspects' on OLO, namely asylum seekers <<Can't help but wonder if this outbreak in PNG has come from the illegals>>. Don't take Poirot word <<I challenge you to walk through raw sewage with a cut foot and then receive improper care - and see how long you last.>>
This is what that red ragger Admiral Chris Barrie, the defence chief in charge of boarder protection under Howard had to say. Barrie described detention centres as "jails" and said the policies enacted by Immigration Minister Scott Morrison were a "mess that reflect badly on all of us".

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/former-defence-force-chief-chris-barrie-slams-asylumseeker-policy-20140904-10ccgp.html

If you ask me that outbreak of TB is from our Leftie morons talking so much crap.

Rehctub "Can't help but wonder if this outbreak in PNG has come from the illegals given that poor young fellow has all but died from a cut foot. The first step in stopping TB from entering Australia woukd be to stop people coming here, legally or illegally. "

And therein lies the real reason for this thread.
So utterly transparent.

Are we also going to ban all tourists who want to visit Australia after having been to New Guinea?
Are we going to ban all our Aussie citizens from going to work or on holidays on PNG, or at least ban them from returning home here after they have been there?

Or is this all just about not letting those nasty, disease-ridden Papua New Guinea people come to Australia?

More likely, the European nations that have descended on PNG over the years have caused far more disease and death to their native peoples than they could ever do to us....

I'm not sure what more there is to do. There's billions being spent already on the search for new antibiotics and variations on old ones, TB is far from the only XDR infection developing.
Until there's a real and deadly pandemic actually happening the Australian public won't support any form of restrictions, but once Aussies start to die then they'll support almost anything, no matter how draconian.

Indi, no one is asking you. Just to add to the debate, and for no other reason. The rednecks don't care how many people die from what ever, as long as they are non whites! The only concern some would have with tuberculosis in PNG is its to close to home. Just a hop, skip and a jump from North Queensland, ah Indi!

The rednecks don't care how many people die from what ever, as long as they are non whites!
Paul1405,
I'm closer to them then you realise & your racist quip confirms your moron status. One of these poor young woman some time ago was condemned to die because of your Leftie mates in immigration who wouldn't provide her with a visa to get medical help in time. She was 20. Don't you feel a real philanthropist now knowing that your leftie bureaucrat mates did their job ? Btw. that was during the Federal & Qld State Labor years.

Indi, everyone is a moron if they do not agree with you! To make light of poor people with TB shows you have little regard for them. Your certainly not known for having any sort of compassion for indigenous people at the best of times. It was you who posted <<If you ask me that outbreak of TB is from our Leftie morons talking so much crap.>> Back in your tree.

G’dayBruce, I reckon you’re spot-on.

We are certainly spending big bucks on trying to address TB and all manner of other diseases, and yes there are numerous others that could morph into highly drug-resistant entities at any time.

We won’t politically be able to implement real restrictions, until an epidemic is underway, at which time we will implement very draconian restrictions. But of course it will be too late by then.

I think Gaia is paused to hit back at the human ‘plague’.

everyone is a moron if they do not agree with you!
Paul1405,
Are you totally incapable of any reason, even wrong ones ? A moron is not someone who disagrees with me, a moron is a human being with insufficient sense to be a proper human being but has enough brain cells to be a damn nuisance kept by the rest of us. I have yet to see a moron self-employed. Nor have I thus far encountered a moron who is not a Leftie or worse, a Greenie..

Yes, Ludwig has a point: it is good to have 2 billion people less on this planet. In fact, it would be ideal to reduce the number of remaining humans to some 5-digit figure, as this would give us the best conditions and independence to concentrate on spiritual practices rather than having to waste our time competing for economic resources or following the dictates of society and governments.

But No, it is not good to have 2 billion people die, how more so suffer such terrible and painful death from tuberculosis.

So how can we square the circle? Sending people to Mars cannot outpace human population growth. The only way, as several mentioned already, is to stop procreating.

As everyone who is born must die, consider giving birth to a new baby an act of murder - a direct cause of that baby's death! Even when conception is not intended, this is still a case of reckless manslaughter. Why then are parents rewarded instead of punished?

Yuyutsu,
That's too much sense for our do-gooders. Much clearer conscience to let 2 billion exist in misery & suffering than prevent pregnancies so many females can't afford because of the Leftie do-gooders. We have some of those in our organisation. There sending the outfit broke, loss of jobs etc. but their own taxpayer funded allowances are limitless.
Instead of foreign aid in money it should be in sterilising food. No more starvation within five years. Now that would be terrible, wouldn't it ? Imagine do-gooders on high income not having any excuses to board the bandwagon of making a huge tax-deducting show of their benevolence ?

Of course we don’t want diseases, or famines or wars, to bring down the human population. We want it to decline at a steady rate through natural attrition, with a below-replacement fertility level.

We need vastly more work of this sort around the world: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Family-Planning. We need governments to get committed to it, not just the occasional NGO.

But this is not enough. Even if this was enormously successful, it would lower the population growth rate down towards zero, but it wouldn’t take us towards a lower population.

So unfortunately, more draconian measures are needed.

Two-child policies need to be implemented around the world. And hopefully some governments will see the merit in having a one-child policy.

Or we could just do nothing, or next to nothing, as we now are, and wait for Gaia to do her own ‘readjusting’… which she WILL do, big time, in the not too distant future.

Perhaps the likes of XDR TB are part of her plan.

Perhaps the likes of XDR TB are part of her plan.
Ludwig,
Yep ! The less they listen to sound advise the harder it is going to hit them. Do any of our religious posters have any quotes regarding over population from their 1000page manual ?

Yes, I thought Ludwig would be delighted at the prospect of thousands of millions of human deaths.

Oh and there's that old left wing coincidence thing again isn't there?

Dear Jardine,

<<Yes, I thought Ludwig would be delighted at the prospect of thousands of millions of human deaths.>>

Delighted in the fact that there are less of us on this planet - YES.
Delighted in the fact that thousands of millions had to die for that - NO.

The more people are squeezed on the planet, the more regulation is needed so they do not step on each others' toes. Surely you should also be delighted if as a result of having less people we can have less government!

<< Delighted in the fact that there are less of us on this planet - YES.
Delighted in the fact that thousands of millions had to die for that - NO. >>

Absolutely Yuyutsu.

Sheesh, doesn’t that Jardine fellow say some steeyUUpid things!! ( :>/

<< The more people are squeezed on the planet, the more regulation is needed so they do not step on each others' toes. Surely you should also be delighted if as a result of having less people we can have less government! >>

Good point Yuyutsu.

Jardine, our resident antigovernment or minimalist government poster, should realise that the bigger the population, the bigger the need for government regulation and for impositions upon us all.

He should be an arch population-reduction advocate!!

For those that support the notion that it would be a good thing if billions were to depart this world, then I suggest to be entirely fair, we should do this alphabetically, so; AARON AARDVARK from AADONDEE come on down!

Seriously, a population control program is required and it should be equally spread throughout the world. Where there are areas of overpopulation then people should be given the freedom and assistance to resettle in areas of under population such as Australia. Economic incentives to voluntarily participate in birth control can only be a good thing. Education should be a key factor in such a program. This type of action should be on a World basis Australia and other western countries should make a contribution at the same level as third world countries.

Well, if we don't introduce population control on this planet then this planet will introduce population control on us. How much clearer can it said ?
I have a Labor moron boss & he thinks we need more people to pay taxes ? Go figure !

Indi, how do you survive up there in The Deep Deep North with everyone in sight being MORONS!
Your Boss is a moron, he's made it above YOU and he's a moron, what does that make YOU! MY boss is a genius, he must be, he employed ME!

The one thing I noticed is everybody enjoying a sling at their favourite punching bag, mainly separated between political ideologies. Cute.

Nobody I notice is wondering how come there is growing anti-biotic resistant TB on our doorstep.

Once upon a time, before QLD got a new government in with and overwhelming majority and with a determination to dismantle everything the previous government had done, because you know, the other guy bad, we're good, there were expanding Health care services in regional Qld. This was of course decimated, because, public services and public servants bad. Needs to be cut and quickly. No thought about consequences.

One of the services decimated was health care and its outposts and services, also on the islands within Australia that really overlap with PNG. This meant that once PNG villagers, a long way from any medical outpost offered by PNG went to Australia for screening, antibiotics and refills. Now this is no longer possible. Courses are not completed, ergo XDR TB. Good you might say, because why should Australian tax-payers living by the skin of their teeth pay for other people's anti-biotics. That of course is said by those who do not realize that some actions of apparent compassion and altruism in end actual benefit us. Like not creating XDR TB right on our doorstep.

Ludwig,therefore you can thank Campbell Newman for his population control methods. More cost effective than birth control education.

Yvonne, one of the underlying problems is that successive Qld governments, and federal governments, of both persuasions, have facilitated rapid population growth well ahead of our economic means of properly supporting it.

Despite a rapidly growing economy, the demand for everything that the economy is supposed to provide had increased more rapidly. So the overall budget has become highly stressed.

Consequently all sorts of things that would have been done if we didn’t have this absurdly high population growth to deal with don’t get done or get done to a cheaper and poorer extent.

There is more of an emphasis on the here-and-now and less on long-term planning.

Under this sort of regime, things like dealing with health issues on the northern fringe of Australia get put into the low-priority bucket, which effectively means that they get addressed in little more than a token manner.

Many successive governments are responsible for this. Our underlying addiction to continuous growth rather that to achieving a sustainable society is responsible for this.

The Newman government is one step better than previous governments in that it is trying to address the budgetary mismatch…. sort of….although without taking the essential step of pulling back on population growth.

Addressing things like XDR TB in neighbouring countries goes hand in hand with the realignment of basic political philosophy towards the achievement of a sustainable society. And it sits at stark odds with the continuation of the utterly stupid continuous-expansionism-with-no-end-in-sight current mentality.

MY boss is a genius, he must be, he employed ME!
Paul1405,
Yep, the Peter Principle is alive & well.

Indi, how long did it take you to come up with that one? I wouldn't be making reference to 'The Peter Principle' based on that every one rises to their maximum level of incompetence. A person who by your own admission is a moron has risen to a position where their level of incompetence puts them above your level of incompetence. What do you do for 'the boss', peel his bananas?

What do you do for 'the boss', peel his bananas?
Paul1405,
You obviously haven't learnt yet that the Peter Principle can't work in Trades & other practical fields.
Doe changing car tyres equal peeling bananas ?

"Does changing car tyres equal peeling bananas? I wouldn't know, but you can tell me when you catch one! LOL

You two are both totally bananas!

( :>)

Ludwig,

Back on topic, I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with your last two posts, we won't discuss the banana one, but the other one is certainly worth discussing. It seems to me economic growth is treated as being unquestionable, sacrosanct, by both the Labor and Liberal Parties, akin to canon law in the Catholic Church, and anyone who questions it is a blasphemer and a heretic. A quarter of negative growth and the alarm bells are ringing, two quarters and open up the soup kitchens.
Australia with its zero percent of the World's population cannot reasonable act in isolation, even thought there are some who think we can. They prescribe to some kind of idiotic isolationist nonsense that while turmoil reigns over the rest of the world, Australia would remain immune and left alone to do its own thing. that would be a fairy tail in the extreme.
I watched Obama talking tough on TV last night, the US is going to go after ISIS with all its military might. For a short term populists politician he said all the right things, could not say much else. What happens if the US and its allies including Australia are militarily successful against this set of crazies. What is next, another group of even bigger and more fanatical lunatics strutting their stuff, and we go after them? I Think until we come up with a world solution to the problems cause by inequality, and a lack of sustainability, we are not going to enjoy a completely happy life, our children and grandchildren even less so. Well nourished and contented people don't chop heads off. If we are being treated to this level of turmoil in the world with a population of 7 billion, what will it be like when its 14 billion or 28 billion if nothing changes.

when its 14 billion or 28 billion
Paul1405,
I envy your optimism but I'm afraid we'll never get to that figure because the cut-off point is being reached now at 8 billion. You perhaps can feed 8 billion but the mess they create is not managable. I don't think there's anyone out there with the audacity & stupidity to suggest it can be done, not even an academic.

Indi, there is no optimism from me, I would agree 14 billion, 28 million, whatever, unsustainable. Put simply unless there is some fantastic, miraculous breakthroughs with technology, and unlike now, that technology is shared equally around the world. then a massive world population is totally unsupportable.

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

unless there is some fantastic, miraculous breakthroughs with technology,
Paul1405,
This technology has been around for 40 or more years, it's called birth control. What we need is a healthier mentality. A National service will see to that. It could be step 1 in making young adult people realise rid themselves of that insanity that is the steeping stone of most of the evil, religion ! They then can enlighten their children & within a few short years we'd have a healthier society with a healthier mentality. The first generation of teachers from that enlightenment can then spread this healthier mentality among the even younger. Do-gooders will be replaced in no time by real philanthropists & the snowball will begin its journey in earnest. It will transcend to all people around the globe. Over population will be a thing of the mysterious past. Academics will try to throw spanners into the works but eventually even they will involuntarily smarten up, as long as they do smarten up is the main objective.

Great post on the situation in Queensland, Ludwig

Paul,

Where is your evidence that Australia is underpopulated? The Australian Academy of Science recommended a safe upper limit of 23 million in 1994, before the full extent of the risks from climate change and resource depletion were understood. "Boundless plains" is unmitigated guff. Australia is really a small to medium sized country wrapped around a big desert. See these rainfall and soil quality maps from Chris Dixon of the CSIRO.

http://www.australianpoet.com/boundless.html

Refugee crises and problems of poverty, environmental degradation, and failure to properly manage emerging diseases such as ebola and XDR TB are almost entirely due to the cultures of the people afflicted by them. There is really no such thing as a poor country. Garrett Hardin (Tragedy of the Commons) once calculated that with a population of 3 million, the Bangladeshis could be the richest people on Earth. If anything, development should be much easier for the latecomers than for the people who pioneered it. They know that development is possible and know what policies are needed to achieve it. There are numerous examples from Europe, North America, and East Asia. Furthermore, they can learn from our mistakes and leapfrog over obsolete, dirty technology. It is because of their cultures that they haven't done this. Unfortunately, the only dysfunctional culture that anyone can hope to change is his or her own. There are all sorts of ways that we can help the people in poor countries, but only if they themselves decide to adopt the necessary cultural change. "A man convinced against his will/ Is of the same opinion still."

Your idea of opening our borders will simply make Australia as poor, populous, environmentally degraded, and conflict ridden as the countries that poor people are risking their lives to escape. Perhaps we too can be a source of refugees rather than a destination. Defending ourselves from this fate is not impossible or idiotic. Israel has managed to hold the Arab world at bay for almost 70 years, despite being outnumbered many times over. Perhaps we should learn from them.

Back to what I originally said "It seems to me economic growth is treated as being unquestionable, sacrosanct, by both the Labor and Liberal Parties,>>
The reason economic growth is so important to both the Liberal and Labor Parties, is with their total commitment to population growth, Australia has to achieve 3% economic growth just to break even with population growth. The world population will grow by at least 3 time Australia's total population in the next year.

Paul 1405, "The reason economic growth is so important to both the Liberal and Labor Parties, is with their total commitment to population growth"

Whereas the lunar Greens merely want to throw open Australia's (and Centrelink's) doors to all-comers to 'solve' world over-population.

The Greens have no problem demanding that young Aussie couples deny themselves the children they want, but their Green Left cultural cringe says it is OK, a duty even, for Australia (that achieved zero population growth decades ago and maintained that goal at the behest of leftie academics!) to accept and support the teeming millions from countries where men refuse to holster their short arm, or at least wear a condom.

Beach, more "balanced" comment from you. Totally misrepresenting Greens immigration policy, with nonsense. What is "your" policy on immigration.
Australia First and their leader Jim Saleam, can make all the right noises, but scratch the surface and you will expose a lunatic fringe group hell bent on inflicting some demented form of national socialism on Australia. The danger with these lunatics is not what they say, but what they don't say.