The Militarization of our Police forces.

I believe it's happening here purely because it's happening in America, but there for American-specific reasons.
Given their obsessive, if not obscene, gun culture and the degradation of their society it isn't surprising, but it's been a subject of concern there as well.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/ferguson-critics-police-militarization-110017.html

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/14/ferguson-and-the-shocking-nature-of-us-police-militarization

Their Defence Dpt had gifted millions of dollars worth of weapons and military equipment widely, it's obviously the over-supply from their recent war spendfest.
The police here have been guilty of following that trend without justification, they don't face anything like the danger American police do, except on rare occasions.
Let's face it, when was the last time the Tactical squads anywhere in Australia actually used their fancy assault wagons, or those machine guns they're so fond of, or even a sniper actually firing his weapon?
Then there's the minor detail that their fancy military toys have to be paid for, our Defence Dpt isn't throwing truck-fulls around like the Yanky Devil is.
We also can't ignore the psychological effect, both on the officers themselves and on the public. Many men, or women, when attired in militaristic uniform inevitably tend to act more aggressively, this is well known. The public, especially those having to deal with the police, are also affected, it's a much more confronting experience on many levels.
The Northern Territory Police changed their uniform recently, against their and the public's objections, from the traditional khaki casual style to a shock-trooper black booted military style, with a Bat-belt and a big gun.
The effect was noticeable in many ways, and the public's respect for their police is plummeting, violent confrontations are up, and the police themselves are far less relaxed and interactive than they had always been till then.
It's a shame, just to be trendy the police all across Australia are making their own job harder and our lives less pleasant.
That's the only way I can see it, they don't need it, we don't need them having it, it's flaming expensive and ends up as a toy for exercises, and a bad influence on everyone.

No Bruce, it's not all right, this is a topical and related video but the part relevant to your post is toward the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_icVWKO4_o

The Gold Coast was once a family friendly day tripper destination,

http://www.news.com.au/national/secret-police-footage-captures-terrifying-scenes-as-bandido-bikies-and-police-clash-on-the-gold-coast/story-fncynjr2-1226754293081

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/factsheets/article/-/9540770/policeman-shot-in-face-on-gold-coast/

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/criminal-bikie-gangs-boost-numbers-with-young-muslim-and-eastern-european-recruits/story-fnihsrf2-1226733840346

Criminal gangs are operating in all States and Territories. They are well armed and take no notice of laws. The gun laws never took guns from criminals nor ever posed a challenge for them. It helped crime - 'gun control' assured criminals of defenseless citizens, waiting victims who are not even allowed to wave a butter knife to defend themselves and their loved ones in their own home.

When police go about their ordinary business they are always at risk. Police, their families and citizens would like police to return home at night unharmed.

The uniform changes are smart, functional and unisex. If it was proposed in other States that police don khaki there would be screams of 'Hitler's Brownshirts', wouldn't there? Police can never win.

I agree G'day Bruce, we don't need to emulate the US in our police/military forces.
We never want the massive numbers of gun-related murders the US suffers from.

Whatever gun laws we have now, we have a less violent society in Australia, and if anything, we should be tightening the gun laws even further...

Ah, but please consider OTB, our police have had their deadly toys for more than a decade in most cases, and as I said, how often, or when, have they EVER used them?
They have geared themselves up for a threat that barely exists, and they aren't wiling to use them, they "contain" situations and have never to my knowledge gone in guns a'blazing.
Their uniforms can be smart and unisexual without being paramilitary, and I wasn't suggesting they adopt khaki, that was a local uniform particular to the NT.
Yes, there are indeed baddies with guns here, but it would appear they mostly use them on themselves, how many gun battles have erupted between gangs and police here in Oz? Ever?
How often, if ever, do Australian police get into a shoot-out with anyone? One where gunfire is actually exchanged? When have they ever used their Assault Vehicles for an assault under fire?
I'd also appreciate your, or anyone's, thoughts on the psychological effects, on both they and the public, and why we should pay the price thereof

The NSW Police have been a para-military force since day 1, and have always used the same or very similar weapons to the Army.
Sometimes Police Officers have had the very latest weapons that Army Officers could only have if they bought them privately.

If they very seldom need the weapons that they now have then it is a very good thing that they have them on the rare occasions that they need them.

There is not much worse than needing a weapon and not having one.

G'dayBruce,
See you later !

Just remembering that the prevailing political correctness required army barracks to be protected by private security employees armed with revolvers.

Perhaps the police do need to be able to help out when this occurs,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/8221279/Islamist-fanatics-plotted-Australias-worst-terrorist-attack-on-army-base.html

Suseonline,

As OLO's resident hoplophobe and expert on security, do tell us what is going wrong?

Could it be that criminals were not affected at all by those 'gun control' laws? Y'know, what with criminals being in the business of breaking laws anyhow and not being at all inclined to apply for that firearms licence that they wouldn't be approved for anyway, and that was always the case. Then again they import their own gansta guns too and guess what, they don't register them either.

Exactly what do you intend to 'tighten up' on?

Oh, that's right, you don't want police to have firearms either.

OTB, charming as ever I see.
As OLO's resident misogynist, you are also the master of sarcasm.

"Could it be that criminals were not affected at all by those 'gun control' laws? "

As long as we never have the same violent shoot-em-up-coz-I -can society as the US has, it is obvious something is going right, though obviously you know more about criminals than I do.

"Exactly what do you intend to 'tighten up' on? "

If I had my way, the only guns available would be for police, military and farming use.
There should be no gun "sports" and we should never have any 'right to bear arms'.
Where, exactly, have I ever said that I didn't want police to have firearms?

Any fool knows criminals get their weapons any way they can, but if all the supposed 'law-abiding gun owners' out there in suburbia who feel the need to bear arms didn't have them anymore, then the crims would find it harder to steal guns.

The police can deal with the criminals, so we don't need rednecks for that job....

Suseonline,

Just as I supposed, you have no answers at all. It is just your irrelevancy and homophobia at work.

Heh, heh, got that mixed up with one of your other areas of expertise and advocacy. I was referring to your hoplophobia of course.

OTB, I had answers.
You had only the usual swill you dish up....

Suse,

Do you believe that the ordinary law abiding citizen have a right to defend themselves against unlawful attack?

@Suseonline, Sunday, 17 August 2014 7:47:51 PM

Where your credibility is always off to a bad start is that despite your dozens of repetitive posts over the years and various people trying to educate you on some of the basic conditions, you remain completely ignorant of the firearms regulations past and present.

You just do your 'drive-bys' and rely on your rudeness when challenged.

The police can deal with the criminals, so we don't need rednecks for that job...
Suseonline,
Yeah ? Are you sure ? Isn't that like saying let teachers do the educating ? You yourself are living proof that that doesn't work.

Is Mise, I'll buy into the argument, your question;
<<Do you believe that the ordinary law abiding citizen have a right to defend themselves against unlawful attack?>> There is no simplistic yes/no answer.
Obviously if someone is attacking you physically, then of course you have the right to defend yourself, physically. Many members of the community that are physically attacked are not capable of defending themselves, in any case.
If the attack is verbal then a physical response is not appropriate, neighbors shouting over the back fence about the barking dog.. The question of should ordinary citizens be armed, is a simple no! Many in society are not trained, or mentally capable to be allowed the privilege of carrying a weapon. The American experience certainly proves that. A persons state of mind at the critical time of use of a firearm is what is the problem. People are highly likely to use a firearm when in an irrational, emotional state and acting aggressively. Police Officers, even though highly trained in the use of a weapon, often suffer the same thing when actually called upon to use the weapon. If Police have a problem, how would untrained people act. What you find to, is the ordinary law abiding citizen is less likely to arm themselves compared to the "nutters", and how do you determine who is a 'OLAC', make it a question on the application form? dangerous. very dangerous.

Australian mentality as it is presently could not be trusted with having weapons let alone firearms in the home. Although some countries do permit firearms in the home, one must consider that they have a different mentality.
Australian gun owners are a different breed altogether. 99% are responsible people with a sense of respect for their firearm & for society. I believe a gun owner should be allowed to use his firearm against a violent intruder who is obvious in his intention to cause harm.
If someone is brazen enough to break into a home & threaten the occupants then he should automaticallly be deemed life-threatening & be dealt with accordingly. A moment's hesitation due to decency has claimed the lives of many decent people & in the increased expenditure of holding the assaillants. IT's time to give the decent people a chance. I would guess that most gun owners would be overpowered anyway before they manged to retrieve the weapon from a gun safe.

...Whatever gun laws we have now, we have a less violent society in Australia, and if anything, we should be tightening the gun laws even further...

Rubbish Suze.

Firstly, guns don't kill people, people kill people and, even that's just a selected few.

As a gun owner, I accept that gun laws must be in place and, that certain people, this with history, should not have guns but, why punish the likes of me.

I have owned a gun/guns for almost 40 years and never committed an offense. Why should I be punished for the wrong doing of lunatics who, as rightly suggested, commit firearm offences whether they be licensed gun owners or not.

Then of cause you have the farmers, most of whom turn a blind eye to the laws while taking huge risks in doing so but, farmers know that a wild dog won't sit there, while you unlock your gun safe, select your rifle, insert the Bo,t, then the ammo take aim and shoot. It's a joke.
All the gun laws have done is disarmed decent law abiding citizens and made them more vulnerable to criminals.

Some of the complaints here relate to the appearance of the police in
their black combat uniform helmets and obviously lethal automatic
weapons and body armour.
I think this is in part protective and deliberately menacing.
I wonder how many shotguns and handguns have been put down by hardened
criminals when they saw what they were up against.

Never had use their assault weapons and armored vehicle ?
Looks like a successful policy to me !

My observations/questions were not about gun ownership or laws here in Oz, that's an entirely different discussion IMO.
I was asking about the reasons for, and the mental/emotional effects of, the militarisation of our police, both on the police themselves and on the general public, all of which I consider negative and totally unjustified.
Surely none of the conditions prevalent in America hold true here, we don't have the racial disputes, the massive numbers and types of guns generally around, nor do we have the violent inequity that is the American way of life.
As for....
"Never had use their assault weapons and armored vehicle ?
Looks like a successful policy to me !
Posted by Bazz,"
That me reminds me of the joke about the bloke selling voodoo charms against wild elephants in Sydney. When confronted with the fact that there are no wild elephants in Sydney he replies..."See how well they work"!
Even in the gun-happy USA most police are never called upon to draw and/or use their weapon, that's an established fact, no matter what the TV/Movie industry would have you believe, and since Australia has even less occasions for weapon use one must surely wonder why our police are dressing up and arming themselves like G.I.Joe

the mental/emotional effects of, the militarisation of our police,
G'day Buce,
In my view the military should be far more engaged with working with Law enforcement rather than just hyper expensive war games.
Those who think that's wrong have obviously never been at the reciving end of crime & should therefore shut up big time.
Do no wrong & you'll be right & that goes for those in Law enforcement as well. We need more people to enforce decency, not fewer & if guns are required for that then so be it.
Even if, as you said they intimitate then that's ok with me.

Paul,

There is a simple "Yes-No" answer, and the answer, in my book, is "Yes".

....Many in society are not trained, or mentally capable to be allowed the privilege of carrying a weapon

Paul, when I was a kid, growing up in the 70's, one would be hard pressed to find a boy, in particular, who hadn't fired a gun and, the first thing responsible fathers tought their sons about guns, was that they were dangerous if used incorrectly.

So in effect, the gun laws, introduced by Howard, and strengthened by successive governments have created a world where the majority of boy now HAVE NOT fired a gun.

Better to be trained about the correct way to use one and the dangers of same in my view.

My son has been tought how to use a gun and is very safe when doing so but, knows how to use it should the need arise.

I don't have a problem with that at all.

we need to emulate the Singaporian Government which has made the streets a very safe place compared with the hopelessly flawed legal system here that blames the victim and makes the criminal the hero ( unless of course a white male).

Paul you tell us that some people are not mentally equipped to have a gun. Then you go on & prove in your post that this is right. I would hate to see people like you with anything more dangerous than a butter knife, you would be sure to hurt yourself.

Yes rehctub, I have owned guns for 60 years. At 15 I was a cadet platoon commander overseeing 30 cadets on the rifle range, after having trained them in the safe operation & handling of weapons.

At 20 the country was supplying me with an aircraft carrying both machine guns, & rockets. I wonder if that qualifies me to be considered safe with a pea shooter?

You are right about our kids. My son, until recently, was training officer cadets, before they went to Duntroon. He had us horrified with his description of their behavior on the range.

He said some of them tucked the butt of a Steyr under their arm, looked over the barrel, & thought they were aiming. After being trained before going to the range, he then found about half of them were shutting their eyes as the thing went bang.

As a qualification he added, "Oh, & most of the girls were worse".

John Howard has certainly robbed us of the ability to rapidly raise train & deploy a citizens defense force, such as we did to defend New Guinea. In the 40s most kids could shoot a rabbit if it was silly enough to sit still. Today most of them could not hit a tin shed, even from the inside.

It is easy to see how civilisations fail, as they become soft & flabby.

I don't know how any reasonable, thinking person could ever imagine that an offender might first check Howard's 'gun control' laws to see what is permissible and allowed.

Imagine the gang member saying, "Gosh, this law I'm reading says that the new gansta gun I imported is illegal, so that puts the kybosh on enforcing that drug territory, boss".

and

"Bro, we really have to put off that shoot-up of the rival bikies clubhouse, because we surrendered our kick-ass weapons in John Howard's 'Buy Back'".

As for John Howard's threatening meme of 'US Gun Culture' that is coming to get us, that is beaut for concealing the inconvenient truth that the huge majority of US gun crime and crimes of violence generally is black on black, in defined areas (guess!) and involve gangs and drugs. Social problems.

In Australia where gun crime has always been rare, the violent crime, including with weapons, involves gangs and drugs.

<Ethnic crime: Two more killed in Middle Eastern bikie gang war
On Monday July 29, 2013 two Middle Eastern males with links to bikie gangs and terrorists were killed just kilometres - and minutes - apart, becoming the latest victims of Sydney's out-of-control gun violence.
..
One former counter terrorism officer, who asked not to be named, said the gun culture had become so ingrained among Middle Eastern males in southwest Sydney that they have taken to settling so-called “honour” disputes with guns.

“The culture is all guns and drugs. If someone looks at your wife the wrong way, you shoot them. They think they’re bulletproof and they have this wilful disregard for authority.”
..
The State Crime Command’s Middle Eastern Organised Crime Squad launched Operation Apollo in February 2013 to try to get on top of gun violence. They have arrested more than 320 people, laid more than 600 charges, and seized more than 80 firearms.

But the shootings continue.>
http://australian-news.net/articles/view.php?id=146

If truth ruled in social discourse and in politics, and laws were based on evidence, the response to violent crime would be very different indeed and it would have a chance of working.

The leftist political 'Progressives' who much prefer to make more las to control ordinary law-abiding citizens and to burden police with busywork, might look to their own political 'initiatives' over time and the unforeseen negative consequences of their social policies.

Not something the ABC 'fact checker' might identify of course.

Ahh Bruce your logic is faulty !

There are elephants in Sydney !

Meanwhile the road toll creeps inexorably higher without hardly a whimper...gun buyback was a fascist plot carried out by Dr Rebecca Peters et al.

Allegedly Rebecca Peters is connected with the Soros organisation, which is reputed to always be interfering in the domestic politics of other countries.

George Soros,

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/24/business/worldbusiness/24iht-soros.html?_r=0

and,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros

A billionaire dealer in international currencies. You wouldn't even feel his hands in your pockets before *whooshka* and your superannuation savings have disappeared into thin air! The smoke and mirrors of international currency dealing.

As an Ex-Pat American that left the USA in 1985, I felt the US was becoming a police state under Ronald Reagan's watch. At that time in my life I had many idealist views on the world and politics, many of which I now feel totally the opposite. I never owned a gun and never wanted one.

The rule of thumb for gun ownership in the USA is, if you aren't going to use it, by that I mean just point it at the bad guy, don't get one. Most people who are killed in their own homes with a gun are victims of their own gun being taken away from them as they stand there with their knees shaking. I used to think the police should be disarmed like in Britain or New Zealand, at the time. I also didn't believe in the death penalty in those days.

After moving to New Zealand where the Police didn't carry firearms it didn't take long to see how restricted their ability to rapidly respond to serious crimes was. The red tape to get permission to go after an armed offender was a bad joke. Thursday Late Night shopping was popular back then and the shopping precincts were filled with people. The streets were also places for some of the most criminal looking nasties I had ever seen, milling around together in uncomfortable numbers that appeared to be looking for an easy target to rob. I remember thinking "in Los Angeles these people would be slammed against a wall, searched and most likely arrested on suspicion, just to get them off the street." I actually felt very nervous for the first time. Needless to say my attitude toward arming the Police rapidly changed. After moving to Australia, I feel Aus has the right balance.

As for slamming potential bad guys against wall because they look like a criminal, I don't condone it but the potential to get slammed does offer some deterrent. Prevention is the best cure as they say.

Just one more thought.. the weak Judges dishing out a slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket doesn't help. Having repeat offenders with a criminal history as long as their arm, being sent home on bail after being arrested for yet another burglary, assault, theft, driving without a license, etc. just defies logic. This limp approach to Justice is more prevalent in NZ and Australia than the USA where one's criminal history is taken into account.

And Concurrent Sentencing... what kind of stupid idea is that? Commit five different crimes and only serve time for one. And nearly automatic time off one's sentence for Good Behaviour? Shouldn't the good behaviour be something they earn after they are locked up? They have already proved their bad behaviour the reason they are before the Court.

Hi there G'DAY BRUCE...

An interesting topic you've introduced to be sure. Unfortunately some of your assertions are erroneous, and I don't propose to list them ad infinitum herein, as both time and space are substantially limited.

However much of what you say is quite relevant, such as that re-styled and darkened coloured uniforms of police, can prove provocative, with an aura of unapproachability and that's not good practice in my opinion. Successful policing, or interdiction of serious crime, relies substantially on public co-operation, therefore police, so attired who give this ridiculous illusion of being ultra 'uncompromising' and completely inaccessible or remote, can only make the job much much harder.

Concerning carriage of firearms. * ALL * firearms, irrespective of what they are, are carried purely for self-defence, no other reason. That means the protection of the police member himself, or in the defence of another third person, and that person must be in immediate danger of serious injury or death. It should be further noted - That danger must be 'real' and 'impending', not doubtful or remote.

Isn't the darker gear for operations? Pale blue shirts otherwise I thought.

Hasbeen as a gun toting cowboy, have you shot yourself in the foot yet,,, literally,,, because you do it often enough figuratively on this forum. Imagine living next door to the gun haqppy Hasbeen clan,wow it would be the like living between the Hatfields and Mccoys, if old Grandpar Hasbeen don't get ya, they have trained up the littlest Hasbeen to do the deed for them.

<<At 20 the country was supplying me with an aircraft carrying both machine guns, & rockets. I wonder if that qualifies me to be considered safe with a pea shooter?>> Safe you, Hasbeen, safe! wouldn't trust you with a water pistol, you would do yourself an injury. I can just picture 'Snoopy' Hasbeen in his Sopwith Camel, in a dog fight with the Red Barron, machine guns a blazen! and don't forget the rockets! LOL.

o sung wu,
I am afraid ol' mate you are preaching to a bunch of brick walls. The only time these people want to see a gun is the same time they want to see a policeman and that is when they need protection from a social predator.
Most of them couldn't raise a fist to protect themselves.
I attended a sunset service today for what used to be Long Tan Day and now id Vietnam Vets day and looking around at the aging warriors there I couldn't help wondering if they ever held a gun since the war. I recon not and there would be no desire to.
Unfortunately with the import culture our governments have allowed into the country in recent years gun use and violence was inevitable.

Yep Paul. You would definitely be one of those who would shut their eyes just before you squeesed the trigger, just like you have your eyes & mind shut.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

Haven't seen you around lately you're well I hope ? Yes Long Tan Day, how quickly have the people forgotten, I never go to anything these days, including ANZAC Day. Many of our colleagues can no longer match simply too far, those who do, tend to shuffle. I've been on the four wheeled contraption that allows me some mobility, so I'm pretty lucky...Vietnam seem so long ago now. I don't know about you but I arrived back in Sydney at c.0100hrs on a chartered DC6B TAA. Our welcome home consisted only of a few media as we arrived at the old wooden Overseas Terminal, at Mascot We're all wearing civvies, so it must of been quite amusing to see us ? Customs were amazing, allowing us almost anything other than prohibited articles. Really good blokes !

Unless they've worn blue, it's very hard for anyone to pass an accurate comment on or about the job, despite how well intentioned it may have been. Whatever's seen on TV doesn't render a true representation of what the job entails nor what it involves.

And another thing to CHRISGAFF1000...

A copper is the very first person you wished to see when you're in trouble, but the last you would ever wish to share a drink with !

Goodnight.

The NSW police have worn blue uniforms for over 100 years, haven't seen any problems re dress yet, except at the personal comfort level.

Regarding them having military weapons; the issue rifle was for many, many years the SMLE, various marks, in, 303 British, the normal service round.
Supplementary long arms were German MP/40 Submachine guns and some Owen Guns as well.
The police armoury in Sydney also had a few top notch sniper rifles.

So what's new?

I don't think it really matters what colour the police uniforms are, in the great scheme of things, although I imagine the darker colours would be preferable for concealment purposes.

As for gun laws, one only needs to read Hasbeen and Rehctub's shoot-em-up comments to agree the laws should be tightened so that only those who really need to have a gun should be able to get a license.
An intelligence test should also be a prerequisite....

<<A copper is the very first person you wished to see when you're in trouble, but the last you would ever wish to share a drink with!>>

o sung wu, who ever said that is being a bit unfair. Coppers are people too. I'll give you an example I'm a Green and don't always agree with police actions. But I used to have an old mate 40 odd years a copper, Crown Sargent, dead now, him and I used to go out fishing together. He'd bag me at times about being a Green and I'd give it to him for being a "copper". Mad punter, smoker and ex drinker. This is the truth, two people who were politically different, but got on well together. Fishing does that to you.

"Suse,

Do you believe that the ordinary law abiding citizen have a right to defend themselves against unlawful attack?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 17 August 2014 10:48:42 PM"

Suse,

Care to answer the question?

"The Militarization of our Police forces."

was the heading of the OP; as I said the NSW Police has always been a para-military force,(as have been the other State police forces).

Bruce, what's your response to my posts shewing that your contention is wrong?

Accidentally posted this in the TV discussion first, in a hurry, my bad.

Sorry L.M., I just went back through and although you've made a couple of observations I can't see where you show I'm wrong.
Perhaps you'd care to elucidate?
Wrong about what, precisely?
It's not the colour in particular I'm objecting to, it's the para-military nature of the uniforms, and the mind-set that that engenders in both the police and the public at large.
I too have a friend who's a cop, and have known a couple of others, including the niece of a good mate, and I can confidently claim that NOT all police are in favour of the militarization of their job.
I don't even object to them carrying guns per se, it's those machine guns and attack-wagons I find unjustifiable and largely uncalled for HERE IN AUSTRALIA.
What sort of Democracy requires a Para-military to control it's population?
A False one, which Australia appears to be becoming, IMO.

G'dayBruce,

I gave the Holsworthy Barracks example earlier. It was real and hundreds could have died. Maybe you did not open the link but the terrorists have modern weapons and bombs. Political correctness deems that the Australian military are not allowed to protect themselves on their own bases. What use then are the private contractors with their revolvers?

Recently bikies surrounded and laid under siege the Southport police station on the Gold Coast making threats to police and their loved ones. Not a small police station by any means and they were taken seriously. They were responsible an affray and physical violence in a restaurant and before in an air terminal elsewhere.

Predictably when I related these and other examples of gang violence and murder referring to the Gold Coat alone and only taking very recent events, one of the long-term Leftist womyn posters on here made the stupid comparison with year 12 'schoolies' (school kids), claiming that the schoolchildren were comparable or worse. I wouldn't think you would be an apologist for Bikies and trivialise serious crime and defend vicious criminals in similar fashion. However I reckon you are underestimating the threats being dealt with by police.

Most interventions are never publicised although the idiot media has put the undercover operatives and intel at stake, sensationalism to gather an audience. The threats are there though and Australia has changed a hell of a lot from what it was before the 'diversity-we-are-obliged-to-have' and 'Big Australia' policies - neither of which has ever been sought or agreed to by the public. The Australian public have never been offered the opportunity to vote on any of that.
to be continued..

continued..

The media are clueless and a menace. Not so long ago a young woman journalist related her shock, disappointment and fear (well founded fear!) when she and her cameraman were unexpectedly(?!) threatened by bikie enforcers during a pre-arranged interview at the club. She was shocked that the 'boys who just want to be boys and ride their bikes' were exactly as described by police: sly, dangerous often unpredictable thugs, and that her good looks and feminine charm did not guarantee her the free passage and privileges she was used to. If they wanted to monster her, bugger her and her cameraman and dump them later they would have. The naive, foolish, idealistic journalist knew nothing, because like so many others she does not know what she does not know.

It is only selected police units, few police in all, who have any real training and proficiency that could save you and them when threatened. If the public really thought about that they might have some qualms. Just saying that the 'problem' is the opposite to what you think.

Bruce,

"Perhaps you'd care to elucidate?
Wrong about what, precisely?
It's not the colour in particular I'm objecting to, it's the para-military nature of the uniforms, and the mind-set that that engenders in both the police and the public at large."

The uniforms have always been military, that the majority of police uniforms have been blue is merely illustrative of the fact that the military uniforms on which they were patterned were often blue.

The NT Police wore khaki as did some other police, which was probably a cost saving measure as khaki cloth was plentiful, being the colour of Army uniforms.
The Slouch Hat of the Army and the Police hat in the NT are interchangeable.

Didn't you read my post on the fully automatic capable German MP 40 "Maschinenpistole" that were acquired by the NSW Police about 1946, and their very good sniper rifles that they had in the 1950s?

The rank structure and insignia of rank are either the same as that of the Army or are modeled on them.

As I asked earlier "What's changed?"

"it's very hard for anyone to pass an accurate comment on or about the job"
Some people simply should not.
According to ie Mise
"Regarding them having military weapons; the issue rifle was for many, many years the SMLE, various marks, in, 303 British, the normal service round.
Supplementary long arms were German MP/40 Submachine guns and some Owen Guns as well."
In many years in the job mate the only long arm I ever saw was the FN FAL 7.62 and the Browning 10 gauge we had in the boot.
Never saw a MP/40 (Schmeisser)in my police force. No doubt they had them in Germany though.

Chris,

The SMLE was on issue to country stations and the Police Armoury in Sydney had at least two racks of MP 40s, as I recall seeing them, and the snipers rifles were "Pattern 1914 Enfield No 3 Mk I* (T) Sniper"
The Owen Guns that were there were the early Mk I.

There were also a lot of "goodies" in the Armoury but mostly of a civilian nature; one of which was a Walther 'Olympia' .22 Target semi-auto pistol (this was used by the only policeman who shot with the Sydney Pistol Club in the 1950s), others were the Colt Thuer Revolver, that were purchased for issue to Officers, an unopened packet of the cartridges for these is worth more than the pistol nowadays.
http://theautry.org/the-colt-revolver-in-the-american-west/conversion?artifact=87.118.33

Having SLRs rather bears out my point.

Hi there PAUL1405...

Yes I do recall you speaking of your long term, close friend who served in the police for many years. As it often happens, two diametrically opposite people can foster a very close relationship ! Where your deceased friend, wanted nothing less than to share his social life with you, a Greenie. You similarly, valued your own 'down time' with a bloke from the 'establishment'. Both of whom more or less 'fed' from each other, and I reckon that arrangement of yours, proved to be very beneficial for both of you. More power to you PAUL1405 !

I can add a little from my own personal perspective, I'd just returned from 12 months overseas active service with the Army. And like many of my genre, I had an aggressive attitude, a mouth like a veritable sewer, and I drank and stunk like a brewery. As it happened I'd only been home a couple of weeks and still basically on leave. One Sunday while washing my car, on the front drive of my parents house, these two extremely attractive 'Seventh Day Adventists' girls, were going from door to door, speaking to anyone of our neighbours who'd prepared to listen, about their religion, and the Bible etc.

A brief conservation with these two 'beauties' ensured, and over a couple of months I'd managed to initiate a somewhat tenuous friendship with one of these stunning looking girls. Amazingly, this friendship, despite our many differences slowly grew, (albeit strictly platonic), despite me being a real 'rough diamond' into the bargain, and she in turn, exuded and lived a life of devout piety. As it happened shortly thereafter she went on and married a like minded religious gentleman, and I joined the coppers. To this very day, we're still very close, notwithstanding we're both married ! Both of our respective partners are well aware of this long, sustained friendship !

Two utterly disparate, contrasting individuals of different genders ? Go figure eh Paul1405 ? There's no accounting for people's choices or behaviour when it comes to developing friendships, choosing potential partners !

Good afternoon to you CHRISGAFF1000 and IS MISE...

Speaking of armaments for coppers. A little bit of gossip for you both - The SAPOL's 'STAR Force' members were originally equipped with S&W Mod 19's 4", K frame, in .357mag, pushing out a 158gr. When in reality it was Sturm Ruger's famous 'Security Six' with a 4" in .357 was the weapon chosen for STAR ! Whisper was, the public servant responsible for the purchase order was confused and purchased the veritable S & W Mod19's ?

This particular gem was provided to me, by a 'STAR Force member' seconded to VICPOL, during the 1983 CHOGOM conference, in Melbourne. It so happened there were a few of us from NSW assisting also. All this because of the Hilton tragedy.

chrisgaff,

Just a minor point, but maybe it was a Remington Model 10 in 12G. They were P/A, but antiques and not so good.

My choice of combat shotgun was the 12 ga. Ithica M37 'Deerslayer' with 18" barrel and a full magazine.
I disposed of mine pre 1996, had I held on to it the Government would have paid me nearly double what I'd sold it for.

Another similarity between the military and the various police forces is virtually the same protocols for the wearing of medals on formal occasions and the wearing of the ribbons on everyday uniform.

Is Mise,

Please don't mention the deer.

Chilli con carne made with minced venison, and near the end of cooking, a small handful of chocolate, a splash of red wine and fresh coriander.

Yummmm, venison and chilli.

Venison tartare (don't forget the Tabasco and anchovy) to start.

LM, I read your post with interest, and I can't disagree with a lot of it, but I still think you're missing my point.
I, along with many others, contend that we're turning our police from their original intended function as civil servants into a para-military force by default.
You have quoted two not overly murderous occasions, and alluded to others, but when one considers the numbers of police and the number of interactions involved those aren't even statistically relevant.
There is no denying there is a need for a para-military style section in the police, but does it necessarily follow therefrom that they should ALL dress and be armed in that manner?
While their command structure was indeed based on the military model it used to be that they were not seen in, nor acted in, that role, they were civilians.
I contend that the main driver for this process has largely been the aping of the American forces, and we can all see where that will inevitably lead.

Hi there folks...

Without thoroughly boring everyone by engaging in the dying practice of 'ballistic masturbation' I offer the following data for your consumption.

The preferred shotgun recommended for all forces in Australia primarily, for the use by specialised tactical units, is the Remington 870P in 12g, also designed to chamber the 12g 3" magnum ctg.

At one of the annual 'Australian Police Commissioner's 'pow wow's' the approved 12g round was the Federal, 2 3/4" of; 00Buck = 9 x pellets of .33 calibre ea.

The approved solid slug was either the Federal 12g 'Hydra Shok' or the much preferred 'Brenneke' slug in 12g. The latter by far the best choice.

Further, the United States being the more advanced (certainly by Aussie standards) in law enforcement shotgun technology, have adopted some of the Military variations for the SG. The military's famous 'Flechette' SG load (recall your Vietnam days, eh CHRISGAFF1000!) and the Rubber 'Shok', 'Fin Stabilized Riot' load. As well as the old favourite the, BFS 12g 'Hard Entry' load used for penetrating barriers similar to ordinary front doors etc.

As I'm sure most of you're aware, there are many uses the humble SG can be used for - far more than I can 'rattle off' here, including propelling Chemical Incapacitating Agents; eg in order of effectiveness; OC Pepperfoam and similar, CN CS CR DM The agents CR and DM can prove fatal in some circumstances and are totally banned for use by police in OZ. Only the military possess these two agents in their inventory.

In conclusion, the 'great equalizer' the humble 'shotie' can be either 'dressed up, or dressed down' depending on it's intended use.

If I was ordered to enter a large darkened building on my 'pat malone' in order to extract a heavily armed gunman, give me a 870P loaded with 'Double-aught' Buck, and I'd give it a go. You can keep your MP5 and MP10's, the 870P every time.

Come off it, Bruce.

Police are not civilians, Commissioned Officers of the NSW Police hold the Queen's Commission and, when in uniform, are entitled to the soldierly courtesy of a salute the same as Officers of any of the other Services.
When in uniform I always made it a point to pay the complement to my local Inspector whenever I had occasion to see him (kept me in his good books!).
All police in NSW have worn firearms when on duty since 1894, that is for the last 120 years, don't recall anyone being frightened by that fact; previously the police in rural areas carried firearms, sometimes both pistols and longarms.

o sung wu,

The banning of the Remington 870 (sporting, as most were) and the Ruger 10/22 (.22 caliber) is one of the main gripes of farmers, cullers and sporting shooters. Both are simple, practical tools.

The 870 is a long arm, entirely unsatisfactory for criminals, and shortening of it was illegal anyhow.

A Ruger 10/.22 is a squirrel rifle, a pea gun, but it had its uses for putting down stock, a bunny for the pot and the culled Brer Fox.

Of course the offenders don't apply for licences (wouldn't get a licence anyhow), don't go to the regulations to confirm what they are allowed and they certainly don't register their guns (say what?!).

It is always interesting how 'gun control' activists are always trying to blur the difference, a gap the dimensions of the Grand Canyon, between respectable licensed and certified law-abiding citizens who own legal firearms and use them for lawful purposes, and criminals.

But then again, ratbag 'gun control' activists also want police to be disarmed. Odd how they never mention criminals.

@Is Mise, Tuesday, 19 August 2014 4:59:25 PM

For information,
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/11665/

Is Mise & o sung wu,
My issue was a standard 9mm Browning HP. I used to practice at the range under Wynyard Station in Sydney.
I was in on the Hilton bust but we all knew the setup was in right from the start. Someone had to go down and it wasn't going to be the big "A" kids from Kirribilli Ave. Terry Griffiths argued with the bosses and it cost him his career.
I worked Tim Anderson for a couple of years on both side of the fence from inside The Ananda Marga with my wife under cover and later to get him and his mate released. Pederick was a nasty piece of work and I often wonder what happened to him.

o sung wu
Remember when it was an offence in the job to expose your weopon to the general public. It might have intimidated them.
Now that is the sole aim of the members.

Hi there CHRISGAFF1000...

You know my friend I reckon you and I passed each other 'like ship's in the night' ? Half of NSWPOL worked on the Ananda Marga thing, as did many others in those days ? As you'd well know Chris, Tim ANDERSON was one smart cookie (IQ wise) and somehow ingratiated himself into the company of Rev.Ted NOFFS and Bill CREW'S crowd, at the Wayside Chapel. Apparently he provided 'counselling' to those poor souls who frequented the laneways and the green spaces in and around the Cross particular along Kellett, Hughes and Orwell Streets.

I worked out of Darlinghurst then, so we had some pretty busy shifts, not only at the Cross itself, but Oxford St. more particularly, along the 'infamous wall' of the old Darlo Gaol, opposite St Vinnies Hospital. Where later, a M A J O R scandal was forestalled, involving a very prominent jurist who allegedly was engaging in some very immoral acts with boys. The problem being, the primary witness went belly up, and all was forgotten ? Not by all I can assure you.

What was the name of that 'sewage pit' of a Bar, located along Hughes Lane, almost behind the Wayside Chapel ? Was it the 'Costello Bar' ?I reckon we responded to that 'Den of Iniquity' more times than anywhere else at the Cross during the thirty six or so months I worked there ? Ah Happy days ?

Yup, the 9mm Browning HP pistol was the standard issue side arm of the Oz military. And a good, well proven piece it was too. The Wynyard Pistol Range eh ? Only invited gentlemen, and bank staff were permitted access to very select facility. In fact wasn't the club founded by the Banks ? The days when tellers were permitted handguns in their cages.

G'day there ONTHEBEACH...

Good to speak with you again ! You're absolutely correct about the 870P. It was a repeating, slide action SG, used by many hundreds of thousands of 'cockys' and sporting shooters, all over the western world. Interestingly, I did this course about a zillion years ago, and our instructors would say '...why do you guys call it a 'pump action' SG...' ? Demonstrating a 'pumping action' with a smile across their faces. '...It's a slide action they'd say...' ! Oh well, there's no accounting for these pedantic old instructors eh ?

You know ONB, that BRYANT fool in Tasmania has a lot to answer for when you think of it ? As a consequence of his gross criminality, a number of poorly advised public servants made some awfully erroneous recommendations to government as to the TYPES of F/A's that should be sanctioned. We all know what followed. Thus became a burgeoning market of illicit F/A's being covertly imported into OZ !

It's my humble view, the only F/A's that should've been sanctioned, whether or not the Port Arthur massacre occurred or not. Are those, that by design are specifically used as military weapons, and are configured as self-loading with a 'select fire' feature incorporated into it's original construction.

OTB, there wouldn't be that many of those types of F/A's out there in public hands I would've thought. From memory, most of the weapons that were freely available back then (that I can recall) were the old Russian, Chinese, or Eastern Bloc, ex military types like the SKK's or the old SKS etc. firing the antiquated but highly effective, 7.92 Warsaw, juxtaposed to the modern 7.62 NATO ctg. You could purchase one for around $120 - $160 depending on the condition of the furniture. V.good for larger feral game, but with the availability of many modern sporting calibres, who needs 'em ? Only advantage was the very cheap, eastern European Ball ammo, was all ?

There's was no doubt, John Howard was well intentioned, but poorly advised it ultimately proved.

Take it easy there OTB.

OTB,

Thanks for the link, I'd forgotten about the Qld police having .303s, probably most other States had them as well.
Most of the Mk I rifles were converted to Mk III standard and most of the surviving originals are ex police.

On the Wynyard Pistol Range.

A bit of history from the Sydney Pistol Club site:
"The Sydney Pistol Club Ltd was established in 1953, the first in NSW and arguably the 3rd pistol club formed in Australia

Our first shooting range was in a disused rail tunnel near Wynyard Station in the Sydney CBD. There was then a brief occupancy of a section of the Malabar Rifle Range where the allocated area was washed away several times.In 1959, after erection of range buildings, the Club moved to its present site at Cape Banks La Perouse."

The entrance to the range was to the right front of the ticket barriers on the George St side, just before the start of the exit concourse. I don't remember it resembling a tunnel at all but remember it as a very noisy concrete room.
Anyway, in those days the Wynyard Tram Station took up the tunnel space of numbers one and two platforms.

The then Commissioner of Police was the first patron of the club.

o sung wu,

You are forever the gentleman and it is always a pleasure. Usually something for me to think about as well, thanks.

Could you allow me to come back another time? Got to run.

Hey! Suse,

Do you believe that the ordinary law abiding citizen have a right to defend themselves against unlawful attack?